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2020 MLB Spring Training (11 Viewers)

TheIronSheik said:
Tim Flannery:
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I hate to say it, but it’s a different world now. That’s why technology is against the rules. You have all kinds of analytics now where you can figure things out on the fly with things that good old Tim Flannerty couldn’t do.

I don’t get why it’s so hard to figure out that people have always tried to steal signs and figure out tells in any sport or game, but this is different. That’s life without tech. The point of making the technology against the rules is that you can instantly figure out signs and see things that without technology you couldn’t.

Tim’s talking about a 3rd base coach who’s in plain view. Pitchers and catchers will talk at the mound when there’s a runner on second. The Astros were using cameras that could see what a base runner or coaches couldn’t see before. Heck, you could use hidden mics at the pitcher’s mound to see what they are saying. Again, that’s well beyond what Timmy could do and that’s the issue.

 
Cowboysfan8 said:
Would it be ok with you if the Cowboys had a Mike in the Eagles huddle when Carson is calling the play, and could relay it to the defense before the ball is snapped?
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Exactly. The Tim Flannery quote talks about teams knowing they need to change signs up, etc. but the problem with tech today is that your creating stealing stuff instantly. There’s preparing and then there’s an AI providing you with instant analysis. One is gamesmanship, the other is cheating when the rules say not to use the tech that makes it no longer a normal part of the game.

I’d liken it to a guy at a poker tournament having special glasses with technology that can read other player’s hidden to the eye facial ticks and heat signatures and perspiration levels, etc. Reading players and trying to find their tells is part of the game. Having information feed to you about stuff you couldn’t observe yourself is the problem.

Unfortunately, it’s going to get worse.

 
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The General said:
I grew up a Reds fan. Went to 100’s of Reds games. Was huge fan of the team when he managed and they finished 2nd every year. Rose as a player was a bit before my time, but he was the a legend. 

He’s a sad, sad figure. Don’t believe a word that guy says about anything. He bet on the Reds to lose I’m convinced. 
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Yeah.  I loved him as a Phillies fan.  And when I lived out in the Nati, he was the coach.  Always defended him even when it seemed like he was probably in the wrong.  But that news last year was disturbing.  Sad.  Much like my story with Dykstra, it sucks when you found out the guys you looked up to were aholes. :(

 
stbugs said:
I hate to say it, but it’s a different world now. That’s why technology is against the rules. You have all kinds of analytics now where you can figure things out on the fly with things that good old Tim Flannerty couldn’t do.

I don’t get why it’s so hard to figure out that people have always tried to steal signs and figure out tells in any sport or game, but this is different. That’s life without tech. The point of making the technology against the rules is that you can instantly figure out signs and see things that without technology you couldn’t.

Tim’s talking about a 3rd base coach who’s in plain view. Pitchers and catchers will talk at the mound when there’s a runner on second. The Astros were using cameras that could see what a base runner or coaches couldn’t see before. Heck, you could use hidden mics at the pitcher’s mound to see what they are saying. Again, that’s well beyond what Timmy could do and that’s the issue.
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In 1951 they were using binoculars and a peach can.  Again, I'm not saying they should be allowed to use cameras to see the signs so much as I'm saying these teams should be aware that everyone is looking to get that edge.  So maybe, just maybe, code your signs.  I give props to the Nats who said they've been coding their signs for years.  Every team should.  If you code your signs, who cares if the other team has a camera pointed at your catcher's crotch?  Mixing up your signs can work against that team.  That's Flannery's point.

 
Did they say in the report the Astros did it during the playoffs?

I’m about 100% certain that Boston was in the ‘18 playoffs. 

 
TheIronSheik said:
Yeah.  I loved him as a Phillies fan.  And when I lived out in the Nati, he was the coach.  Always defended him even when it seemed like he was probably in the wrong.  But that news last year was disturbing.  Sad.  Much like my story with Dykstra, it sucks when you found out the guys you looked up to were aholes. :(
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Yup. Example 1A, my man: Bob Knight.

I just separate the guy I idolized as a kid from the guy who never fails to disappoint me as an adult.

 
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Cowboysfan8 said:
What’s this now ?
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It was weird.  The Phillies were going to honor him one night during the summer and a week before it was supposed to happen, someone dropped a story that said he slept with 15 year old girls when he was a player.  It was odd because it was like they were waiting for the perfect time to drop that story.  The Phillies ended up cancelling the event due to the news that had just come to their attention.  

 
TheIronSheik said:
In 1951 they were using binoculars and a peach can.  Again, I'm not saying they should be allowed to use cameras to see the signs so much as I'm saying these teams should be aware that everyone is looking to get that edge.  So maybe, just maybe, code your signs.  I give props to the Nats who said they've been coding their signs for years.  Every team should.  If you code your signs, who cares if the other team has a camera pointed at your catcher's crotch?  Mixing up your signs can work against that team.  That's Flannery's point.
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C’mon, you’re being intellectually dishonest here with these silly analogies. Also, you’re kind of proving my point that 1951 to Tim Flannery in 2014 wasn’t much different. Even with binoculars or a video camera, we’re not in the same world as we are today. It’s not hard to admit that AI tech can spit out instant info where there isn’t even a person involved like a runner at 2nd or a coach signaling the batter based on their visual observations.

 
Don Quixote said:
Flannery's rambling completely misses the point.  Watching video after the fact to try to get an edge is one thing.  Using the replay system and video monitors in-game to steal signs is completely different.  The memorandum that provided guidance to clubs cited in the report is pretty clear that is a no-no:

"In this respect, MLBR 1-1 expressly provides that “under no circumstance may electronic equipment or devices be used for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying other information designed to give a Club a competitive advantage.” To be clear, the use of any equipment in the clubhouse or in a Club’s replay or video rooms to decode an opposing Club’s signs during the game violates this Regulation. (Emphasis in original.) Clubs (and Club employees) who are found to have utilized equipment in the replay or video rooms for such purposes during a game will be subject to discipline by the Commissioner’s Office."
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Yep, amazing to me that people can’t see the difference between the players and coaches trying to steal signs even by watching videotape the day before and using technology and non-players/coaches/AI programs to deliver instant results to players and coaches that the players and coaches can’t get themselves.

It would be like @Cowboysfan8’s analogy of a hidden mic in a football huddle or video cameras in the card table feeding card details to one player’s earbud. Defensive players in football study film and poker pros try to read tells but they are doing the work and not artificially receiving the info.

 
TheIronSheik said:
It was weird.  The Phillies were going to honor him one night during the summer and a week before it was supposed to happen, someone dropped a story that said he slept with 15 year old girls when he was a player.  It was odd because it was like they were waiting for the perfect time to drop that story.  The Phillies ended up cancelling the event due to the news that had just come to their attention.  
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Wtf?

Im not sure how I missed that 

 
Spartans Rule said:
This. It's silly to me that it's "cheating" to look at valuable information that your opponents are voluntarily making available to you.

They could just code the signs better, maybe even use technology to transmit them, and this is a dead issue. But the onus is on the other team to close their eyes.
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It's like when a beautiful young lady bends over it front of you.  How can you not look?

 
Capella said:
This is like the end of godfather 
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"Do you believe in Rob, the Commish Almighty, Creator of Rules and Punishments?"

"Do you believe in Jim Crane, His designated survivor?"

"Do you believe in the Unwritten Rules...the Timely Homerun Trot?"

"Do you renounce Technology?"

"And all its works?"

"And all 'Stros and Sox?"

"Will you live in the Dark Ages?"

"Go in peace, and may the Babe be with you. Amen."

 
$$$$

@Ken_Rosenthal: Donaldson deal with #MNTwins, per source: Four years, $92M. Deal includes fifth-year option that can increase total value of deal to $100M. First with agreement: @Feinsand.

 
The General said:
I grew up a Reds fan. Went to 100’s of Reds games. Was huge fan of the team when he managed and they finished 2nd every year. Rose as a player was a bit before my time, but he was the a legend. 

He’s a sad, sad figure. Don’t believe a word that guy says about anything. He bet on the Reds to lose I’m convinced. 
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Reds fan as well, and agreed, it's delusional to think otherwise.

 
shadyridr said:
I think the key cutoff is that September 2017 date in which MLB released that edict. I haven't seen any evidence of them doing this stuff after that date. Only the Astros and Sox. If it comes out they did then they will be punished as well. 
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Right.  Before that, totally acceptable.  After that, ruined the game and everyone who did it is worse than Hitler.  

 
shadyridr said:
I think the key cutoff is that September 2017 date in which MLB released that edict. I haven't seen any evidence of them doing this stuff after that date. Only the Astros and Sox. If it comes out they did then they will be punished as well. 
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It’s Cora and Beltran’s MO. 

The games in London were ‘18, right?

 
I have a solution: Since it is hard to keep the playing field level regarding sign stealing because some teams cheat and others don't, make it level by making it mandatory that the pitcher declare what pitch he is throwing before every pitch. MLB juiced up the balls because they concluded that more Home Runs will sell more tickets, this will just add to that. Brilliant!!!

 
NREC34 said:
It’s Cora and Beltran’s MO. 

The games in London were ‘18, right?
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Beltran rarely traveled with the team. He was a special advisor not a bench coach. Is your contention that he rigged a whole sign stealing scheme and brought it across the pond for a 2 game series? The Astros stole signs at home. Are you saying the yankees stole signs in London? This seems far fetched. 

 
shadyridr said:
Beltran rarely traveled with the team. He was a special advisor not a bench coach. Is your contention that he rigged a whole sign stealing scheme and brought it across the pond for a 2 game series? The Astros stole signs at home. Are you saying the yankees stole signs in London? This seems far fetched. 
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What do think Cora is trying to say in the clip (reading between the lines) in your opinion?

 
As a Mets fan, I’d be fine with firing Beltran even if MLB has no plans to suspend him. It could be for this story or it could be for the fact that hiring a manager without a lick of managerial experience, with the #### infrastructure the Mets have, for a roster that is good enough to compete for a playoff spot is and always was remarkably stupid. 

 
RUSF18 said:
As a Mets fan, I’d be fine with firing Beltran even if MLB has no plans to suspend him. It could be for this story or it could be for the fact that hiring a manager without a lick of managerial experience, with the #### infrastructure the Mets have, for a roster that is good enough to compete for a playoff spot is and always was remarkably stupid. 
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Honestly, I'm surprised he's still the manager at this point.  When the Cora news came down last night, I was sure the Mets would follow suit by this morning.  I get it that the players had immunity in this investigation, but that was from being suspended.  You'd think an organization would want to distance themselves from anyone mentioned in that report right about now. Even if they had immunity.

 
I wonder how Fiers will be treated going forward?  Sure, he was the whistleblower.  But only after he got his ring and left.  

 
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