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Binky The Doormat

Keep the DFS Interactive Value Chart!!!

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I just left a note in Joe's "suggestion box/user concerns" thread on this, but also felt strongly enough that I thought it deserved it's own thread. 

I saw the big yellow notice above the DFS Interactive Value Chart (IVC) today announcing that since the internet tool has been modified for single DFS lineups that the IVC won't be continued. 

AHHHH!!!

This is a complete bummer.  I see IVC and the internet tool as related, but very different DFS tools - so they aren't redundant.  I spend by far and away most of my time with the IVC when building DFS lineups.  I primarily have one main line up. 

The format and feel of the IVC is extremely user-friendly, it provides a great deal of information "at a glace" and allows me to take different core groups of players and get David, Maurile or Sig's takes quickly on the best options to fill out the rest of the lineup.  If I like it ...I just copy/paste to excel and continue.  I use the FBG optimizer along with results of other optimizers from other sites as data gathering, but I do my DFS work in the IVC tool. 

The IVC is one of the main reasons I am still a paying member.  Anyone else love this thing enough to group together to hopefully have FBGs to retain it?? 

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I agree with this. Was disappointed when I saw they were getting rid of it. This thread sinking to page 2 with no replies makes me think we are in the minority though

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100% agree.  I have no use for the optimizer unless it provides the same construction model that the IVC offers, which it currently doesn’t.

Edited by cobalt_27
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32 minutes ago, cobalt_27 said:

100% agree.  I have no use for the optimizer unless it provides the same construction model that the IVC offers, which it currently doesn’t.

EXACTLY - matter of fact, I typically HATE the results I get there.  

Joe/David - I absolutely HATE this forced migration to the existing internet platform. 

If the VBD excel sheets are also gone - that's the last straw. 

KEEP THE IVC! 

@Sigmund Bloom   @David Dodds @Joe Bryant 

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19 minutes ago, Binky The Doormat said:

KEEP THE IVC! 

@Sigmund Bloom   @David Dodds @Joe Bryant 

Please keep the IVC!  

I use this tool weekly to build lineups at all 4 DFS sites.  The new single mode of the lineup optimizer pales in comparison, including that it seems much slower.  The IVC shows much more data at a glance which I like - for example I can compare the player ranking of MT, DD, and SB by sorting on their specific column.  New optimizer doesn't allow that.  

 

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I have been a subscriber since Cheatsheets.com and will not be renewing as they are getting rid of the 2 features I use - FBG Classic and the Interactive Value Chart.

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8 minutes ago, Steeler said:

Please keep the IVC!  

I use this tool weekly to build lineups at all 4 DFS sites.  The new single mode of the lineup optimizer pales in comparison, including that it seems much slower.  The IVC shows much more data at a glance which I like - for example I can compare the player ranking of MT, DD, and SB by sorting on their specific column.  New optimizer doesn't allow that.  

 

Absolutely.

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Thanks for the feedback on these. For the IVCs, what exactly about them are you not able to do with the new Single and Multi lineup Optimizer?

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2 hours ago, cobalt_27 said:

100% agree.  I have no use for the optimizer unless it provides the same construction model that the IVC offers, which it currently doesn’t.

Yes, it does!

 

1 hour ago, Steeler said:

Please keep the IVC!  

I use this tool weekly to build lineups at all 4 DFS sites.  The new single mode of the lineup optimizer pales in comparison, including that it seems much slower.  The IVC shows much more data at a glance which I like - for example I can compare the player ranking of MT, DD, and SB by sorting on their specific column.  New optimizer doesn't allow that.  

 

there are columns for each projector. It’s under the column switching button to the left of the column headers. If you let me know your browser and OS I can look into the speed.

the single build mode was designed as a direct port of the IVC.

1 hour ago, Kub said:

I have been a subscriber since Cheatsheets.com and will not be renewing as they are getting rid of the 2 features I use - FBG Classic and the Interactive Value Chart.

Have you tried the new versions? What we’re trying to do is improve our product. We believe we’ve done that but always remain full ears open to suggestions and specific feedback that we can action and look into.

we will have a ton of migration info for next year here so it’s as easy as possible to move over to the new systems.

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Hey everyone-

I wanted to put a quick post here as your feedback is incredibly valuable. 

1) With the new optimizer, it is an automatic projection update compared to a manual update meaning as soon as David, Sigmund, or Maurile update their projections the optimizer is updated. Today, with the IVC's while they're frequently updated, they do require Maurile to be around a computer to manually update. This allows for faster updates and more real-time projections. It also allows for you to enter in your own projections, and to customize a players projections which are not available within the IVC today.

2) Our intent is that no functionality is lost and the user experience is at least on par if not better than the IVC's.

3) The more feedback we can get the better this will be. We are taking all feedback and incorporating it into the product. If you have not tried out the single lineup builder it is supposed to replicate the IVC.

4) We will be posting more videos, having live streams, have customer support to help with this transition that I personally will create and oversee. 

Thanks
Devin Knotts

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13 minutes ago, Simon Shepherd said:

there are columns for each projector. It’s under the column switching button to the left of the column headers. If you let me know your browser and OS I can look into the speed.

Are you talking about the drop down with the header "Column Options"?  When I click that drop down the only option is "DFS (Main)".

 

I'm using Windows 10 with Chrome Version 79.0.3945.88

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10 minutes ago, Steeler said:

Are you talking about the drop down with the header "Column Options"?  When I click that drop down the only option is "DFS (Main)".

 

I'm using Windows 10 with Chrome Version 79.0.3945.88

Agree with you here @Steeler. My goal is to have this look and feel like the IVC as much as possible to the point of people not really noticing. We aren't there yet, but something I'm focusing on in the off season.

We have this view on the Multi-Lineup Builder, but not on the single builder. I'll work with Simon to see what is possible here. 

image.thumb.png.5964097dab019ea99db073e2c8fab5dc.png

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13 minutes ago, Devin Knotts said:

Agree with you here @Steeler. My goal is to have this look and feel like the IVC as much as possible to the point of people not really noticing. We aren't there yet, but something I'm focusing on in the off season.

We have this view on the Multi-Lineup Builder, but not on the single builder. I'll work with Simon to see what is possible here. 

1 hour ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks for the feedback on these. For the IVCs, what exactly about them are you not able to do with the new Single and Multi lineup Optimizer?

I had a lot of this typed out before seeing Devin's response so I'll go ahead and share, but adding the three projections columns (along with sorting and all that) would go a long way to making this work like the current IVC.
The IVC layout is better because it shows all the data at a glance.  Therefore, it is possible to compare the projections between MT, DD and SB.

For example, if I want to compare the QBs at the top of each of the projections I can click H-Value, QB, and then sort on MT then DD then SB.  Doing that this week shows me that Matt Ryan is 2nd on MT list but way down on SB list.  Also SB has Mahomes higher than the other two.  That is a quick way to see outliers in terms of these three sets of projections.

More importantly for me, the IVC makes it easy to fill out a roster from the various set of projection.  Lets say I want to start M. Ryan, J. Jones, R. Gage and run it back with DJ Chark.  I can click MT to fill out the roster.  Then with a few clicks I can remove those "MT" players and click DD to fill out the roster with projections from Dodds.  Then following the same steps I can remove the "DD" players and see the Ryan/Jones/Gage/Chark lineup filled out with the SB projections.  

 

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5 hours ago, Kub said:

I have been a subscriber since Cheatsheets.com and will not be renewing as they are getting rid of the 2 features I use - FBG Classic and the Interactive Value Chart.

I agree, these are simple but extremely useful and straight forward. To me the optimizer is pretty much useless, maybe there is way it does what My FBG and IVC does but I'm either too stupid or lazy to try and figure it out. Why mess with a good thing :shrug:

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@Kub @dmac37@Steeler@cobalt_27 @dewmass @Binky The Doormat and anyone else who might not have commented.

Here's what I'll tell you all. I completely hear you and understand. My ask is that you not overreact just yet. We have 30 weeks to get the single lineup optimizer looking and feeling as close to the IVC as possible. That's the goal.

@Joe Bryant may not like what I'm going to say here, but if we don't have the single lineup optimizer perfect, I'm going to push hard for us to keep the IVC's. 

Also, to give some additional background on why we are doing this. There are some major benefits for the new optimizer over the IVC. Most notably that the updates are automatic where the IVC are a manual update. This means that any time David/Sigmund/Maurile want to update their projections, it is live as soon as they hit submit which in theory give you more up-to-date immediate projections. Today, David/Sigmund have to send to Maurile and he has to manually create the IVC which can lead to some time gaps between updates. The lineup optimizer also lets you go back and look at previously saved rosters.

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16 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks for the feedback on these. For the IVCs, what exactly about them are you not able to do with the new Single and Multi lineup Optimizer?

Compared to the IVC, the optimizer is clunky.  Think new math (lots of steps/not intuitive to do) vs. old school math.  I think you guys are dramatically underestimating the importance of look, feel and ease of use.  You guys have developed a tool that delivers those things in the IVC.  It's intuitive - you can basically "pick it up and use it."  I'm not interested in extra steps and a less friendly interface.  What I like about the IVC:

- the layout, you can see lots of information at a glance - its really easy to see a bunch of players/salaries/pt estimates - along with the lineup you are building and the dollars remaining

- I don't want to be force-fed the optimizer's line up ...I want to see it, but then I want to EASILY put and pull players out of that line up while I can still see the player pool 

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33 minutes ago, Binky The Doormat said:

Compared to the IVC, the optimizer is clunky.  Think new math (lots of steps/not intuitive to do) vs. old school math.  I think you guys are dramatically underestimating the importance of look, feel and ease of use.  You guys have developed a tool that delivers those things in the IVC.  It's intuitive - you can basically "pick it up and use it."  I'm not interested in extra steps and a less friendly interface.  What I like about the IVC:

- the layout, you can see lots of information at a glance - its really easy to see a bunch of players/salaries/pt estimates - along with the lineup you are building and the dollars remaining

- I don't want to be force-fed the optimizer's line up ...I want to see it, but then I want to EASILY put and pull players out of that line up while I can still see the player pool 

Have you used the single build mode of the new tool @Binky The Doormat? This feels like a comparison of IVC to the new multi build mode of the Optimizer

the single build mode is a direct clone of the IVC in terms of layout and functionality. There’s a few tweaks we can make based on the feedback here and the feedback from staff and that’s invaluable - thanks for all the input!

but with the single build mode having the exact same layout as IVC it seems silly to keep both. I just want to make sure that everyone is comparing apples to apples here and not talking about the multi build mode of the Optimizer which isn’t relevant to this thread.

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25 minutes ago, Simon Shepherd said:

Have you used the single build mode of the new tool @Binky The Doormat? This feels like a comparison of IVC to the new multi build mode of the Optimizer

the single build mode is a direct clone of the IVC in terms of layout and functionality. There’s a few tweaks we can make based on the feedback here and the feedback from staff and that’s invaluable - thanks for all the input!

but with the single build mode having the exact same layout as IVC it seems silly to keep both. I just want to make sure that everyone is comparing apples to apples here and not talking about the multi build mode of the Optimizer which isn’t relevant to this thread.

yes - getting there - and certainly better than before.

Need to expand the line up box to display the entire lineup at one time and widen it to accomodate each of the 3 projections and average.  

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18 hours ago, Kub said:

I have been a subscriber since Cheatsheets.com and will not be renewing as they are getting rid of the 2 features I use - FBG Classic and the Interactive Value Chart.

Which part of Classic isn't coming back? 

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I received an email stating that they were retiring FBG Classic in favor of the League Dominator software.  Maybe I am just getting old and set in my ways, but I have never found I could get the same results through any of the apps(draft/league/lineup domininators) as I don't like to be spoonfed things, I like to see their opinions and tinker. 

I signed on for a 3 year package when it was offered and I am up to renew for the first time in quite a while, so them retiring the exact things I use means it is time to move on.

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12 hours ago, Simon Shepherd said:

Have you used the single build mode of the new tool @Binky The Doormat? This feels like a comparison of IVC to the new multi build mode of the Optimizer

the single build mode is a direct clone of the IVC in terms of layout and functionality. There’s a few tweaks we can make based on the feedback here and the feedback from staff and that’s invaluable - thanks for all the input!

but with the single build mode having the exact same layout as IVC it seems silly to keep both. I just want to make sure that everyone is comparing apples to apples here and not talking about the multi build mode of the Optimizer which isn’t relevant to this thread.

With the IVC, you can see Tremblay, Dodds, and Bloom's rankings for each guy. So, if you value one ranker more or less than the other, you can see it. 

I can use today as an example, when I looked earlier today, it was obvious that Bloom had not yet changed his rankings for Derrick Henry's status. So, I was able to ignore that ranking while forming my lineup with Dion Lewis(in retrospect, it didn't work out great), but I was able to see that and make my own adjustment.

Maybe there is some way to do the same thing with lineup dominator, I just don't see it.  I have tried them all and just don't find any of the dominator software appealing.  

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My biggest two issues that I assume you'll address....  Will the optimizer work on my phone?  Will it be as fast as the IVC?

While not specific to this topic, but tangentially related, will the optimizer be upgraded to the point that it generates winning lineups?  Maybe it's not the programming but the projections.  Is anyone tracking projection accuracy relative to past seasons?  I'd really like to understand if it's a software issue or a projection issue.

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^^^ Agree it has to work on phones.

Right now, I use almost exclusively the IVC so I couldn’t tell you what’s better or worse about the optimizer because I’m never using a laptop and don’t plan on it. 

Edited by cheese

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3 hours ago, BassNBrew said:

My biggest two issues that I assume you'll address....  Will the optimizer work on my phone?  Will it be as fast as the IVC?

While not specific to this topic, but tangentially related, will the optimizer be upgraded to the point that it generates winning lineups?  Maybe it's not the programming but the projections.  Is anyone tracking projection accuracy relative to past seasons?  I'd really like to understand if it's a software issue or a projection issue.

It is possible that it will spit out better lineups by being connected to “live projections”.  For example, almost every other source had Dion Lewis in their optimal lineups today. FBG did not have him high at all on IVC until the absolute last second. The reason? Lingering projections for Henry who had been ruled out. Without getting into whether Lewis was a good/bad play, that’s the type of thing that might be prevented with the switch being described.  Based on the explanations, above I’d bet Lewis was being recommended by the optimizer and simultaneously not being recommended by the IVC all morning.

 

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Hey guys.

We're super keen to make sure we cater for those who are used to the IVCs. I want to setup some video calls with some users to get some detailed feedback about what you like/dislike about the tool and what your suggestions are. The main part of this would be me watching you use the Optimizer via screen share while we chat.

If you are:

  • someone who is used to the IVCs and fears this change; or
  • someone who used the multi-build mode a ton this year and puts more than a couple of hours into DFS each week

Please email me - shepherd at footballguys dot com so we can setup a call.

I am still in the UK so I need people available in these time windows:

  • 6.30am EST to 7.30am EST
  • 8.30am EST to 9.30am EST
  • 11am EST to noon EST

Thanks again!

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Going to try one last time here to try to break out of the cycle of "Footballguys build something, Shark Pool is up in arms about how it doesn't do the same as an old tool"

I really want to engage with you guys and make sure the product we build works for everyone here. It is 1000x easier to build the right product from the start than to build something, have you guys see it in week 1, give a ton of (very valid and entirely reasonable) feedback as to why it doesn't work for you, then have to try to make changes during the season!

Please see my post above. I want to work with you guys and get you the product you want. If it's a call with me, or continuing the conversation here, cool. Let's just talk. All I ask is that first you try the new version of the IVC here: https://optimizer.footballguys.com before giving feedback, as much of the feedback on removing the IVCs has been based solely on the Multi-build mode of the new Optimizer.

It works perfectly for any past week of the NFL season, so even though there isn't a super bowl slate available, you can go back to any previous week and use it.

Thanks as always for providing us with the feedback. We know it shows you guys care about the site and the product.

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2 hours ago, Simon Shepherd said:

Going to try one last time here to try to break out of the cycle of "Footballguys build something, Shark Pool is up in arms about how it doesn't do the same as an old tool"

I really want to engage with you guys and make sure the product we build works for everyone here. It is 1000x easier to build the right product from the start than to build something, have you guys see it in week 1, give a ton of (very valid and entirely reasonable) feedback as to why it doesn't work for you, then have to try to make changes during the season!

Please see my post above. I want to work with you guys and get you the product you want. If it's a call with me, or continuing the conversation here, cool. Let's just talk. All I ask is that first you try the new version of the IVC here: https://optimizer.footballguys.com before giving feedback, as much of the feedback on removing the IVCs has been based solely on the Multi-build mode of the new Optimizer.

It works perfectly for any past week of the NFL season, so even though there isn't a super bowl slate available, you can go back to any previous week and use it.

Thanks as always for providing us with the feedback. We know it shows you guys care about the site and the product.

I see how we can build lineups based on Dodds, consensus, etc, but can we columns on the left be altered to show for example just Dodds.  What i liked about the IVC was the ability to see three sets of projections at the same time.

I really like the overall look.

Edited by BassNBrew

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being able to overwrite the values in the points column is cool but there needs to be a way to reset them to their original values.

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There are definitely some upgrades compared to the IVC that I see. 

-More options on how projections are used (i.e., median projection for each player, etc.)

-Ability to distinguish between cash and GPP lineups is another added flexibility

-Ability to enter in your own projections for a player is also a great addition

I'd echo both comments above, as well as the need for it to be usable on mobile, at minimum on a phone's browser, if not an app.

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On 1/29/2020 at 2:26 PM, Ignoratio Elenchi said:

being able to overwrite the values in the points column is cool but there needs to be a way to reset them to their original values.

sure - you hit the E key on the keyboard. There is a yellow hint box at the top but we need to make this more obvious.

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On 1/29/2020 at 1:53 PM, BassNBrew said:

I see how we can build lineups based on Dodds, consensus, etc, but can we columns on the left be altered to show for example just Dodds.  What i liked about the IVC was the ability to see three sets of projections at the same time.

I really like the overall look.

It's there but needs to be easier to find! We have full customization of the columns on the to-do list as well.

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5 hours ago, Simon Shepherd said:

sure - you hit the E key on the keyboard. There is a yellow hint box at the top but we need to make this more obvious.

I don't see a yellow hint box anywhere in my browser.  :shrug: 

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22 hours ago, Ignoratio Elenchi said:

I don't see a yellow hint box anywhere in my browser.  :shrug: 

Thanks. That's my fault. It's in the multi build mode but not the single/IVC mode. I'll make a note.

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@Simon Shepherd

Let me preface my thoughts about the Lineup Optimizer by saying I think the Online Draft Dominator is an excellent piece of software.  I've praised you and the Draft Dominator in the past but I think the Lineup Optimizer has a ways to go before it becomes as good.

The biggest problem is that I cant see all three projections at the same time.  I think this goes back to the conversation we had about the name (maybe that was in the other thread).  The functionality in the Single Lineup Optimizer acts as a lineup optimizer for one lineup.  However, the IVC is actually Interactive! where you can see a bunch more of the information, gives you an opportunity to easily tinker/compare/etc. between the different projections, and then it fills in the rest of the lineup.  The current Single Lineup Optimizer and the current IVC are not the same at all.  I disagree with you that the Single Lineup Optimizer is a direct port of the IVC.  That's why (in the other thread) I said the name isn't as important as the functionality and it seemed to me you were more focused on the name rather than the functionality.  Get the functionality right and you can name it whatever you want if you don't like IVC. 

The current IVC allows me to see MT, DD, and SB projections all at one time.  It allows me to easily sort by each projection and eyeball if any of the projections has someone wildly different from the other two.  It allows me to sort by projected fantasy points, H-value, etc.  Once the lineup is completed it shows me the total projected score by each of MT, DD, SB and the consensus IIRC.   Not showing all the projects in the left pane at the same time like the IVC takes too many of the options away.

 Regarding specific functionality (I'm using a laptop in a Chrome browser):
In general the Optimizer is slower than the IVC.  It took 9 seconds to load the players in the left pane - that is way to slow for ~300 players or whatever the exact number.  I was using DK and week 16 for this test.

The lineup in the right pane should show all the players/ should show the entire lineup.  Having to scroll to see the TE, FLEX, and Defense is not ideal.

I ran a few different lineups on the Single Lineup tab and then popped over to the Lineups tab and none of my lineups was there.  Not sure it that is expected behavior but the way the tabs are laid out across the top it makes it seem like the lineups should have been there.  If the lineups should not be there then maybe disable that tab when in single mode?

Bug:  I ran a few single game lineups on DK and then switched over to FD.  However, the lineup on FD was never created.  After changing to FD, when I clicked "Complete Lineup" the "Completing your lineup"  message popped up for a second with the screen grayed out and then it disappeared with no updates to the lineup.  I then switched over to Fantasy Draft and had the same results.

Bug:  I selected week 17 and got the message "this is the last week of the NFL regular season..."  Then switched to week 16 and the message was still there.  Selecting any week from here and the message remains.

While I'm providing feedback, the multi-lineup optimizer should allow me to save my default settings.  For every week AND every slate I have to select "large GPP", 100 lineups, 25% randomness, etc, etc, etc.  It sure would be nice if I could save those as default settings and be able to tweak from MY default rather than a blank slate every.single.time.

 

Edited by Steeler
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Thanks @Steeler

 

Everything in your post is already in the to-do list for the Single mode of the Optimizer (it's actually likely that we split it out into its own separate app)

I view all this stuff as very minor tweaks. Adding those 3 projector columns, fixing the issue with having to scroll to see the whole lineup (which only happens on some devices - not mine annoyingly!) and speeding up the lineup builds are all super easy changes for us to make, and none of them are integral at all to the design of the tool.

So I think we're quite close here.

Quote

While I'm providing feedback, the multi-lineup optimizer should allow me to save my default settings.  For every week AND every slate I have to select "large GPP", 100 lineups, 25% randomness, etc, etc, etc.  It sure would be nice if I could save those as default settings and be able to tweak from MY default rather than a blank slate every.single.time.

Thanks. I have this in the wishlist for right now. The difficulty is in knowing exactly which ones to copy over (player specific changes wouldn't count for instance - but what about the flex balance? How should the settings interact with different slates that have wildly different player pool sizes?) and how to lay this out in the UI in a non-confusing way.

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