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rockaction

How Far Is Too Far? Astros Cheating Scandal Ends In Firings, Disarray, Disgust

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2 hours ago, rockaction said:

Neural networks, GB? Like brain maps?

I'm just unsure what you're talking about, but if so, then yes, something like it. Except there's no real copyright or patent or trade secret issue here, I just used it as a way to look at how we deal with commodity valuation relating to precious or secret information in other workplaces. If that's a confusing pedagogical tool, my bad, and ignore it at your wont. 

Nah, some hackers basically engineered motion cameras to watch signs and they would enter the play results and over time it would indicate what the signs were.  I'll have to dig these out, youtube is blocked at work.   

 

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14 minutes ago, Gally said:

This is another factor that many people may not realize.  Some batters would rather not know what was coming because it took away their focus on actually trying to hit the ball.  It can also be mistaken as other teams figure out they were being stolen and change up the signs.  When I played in college there were people on the team that didn't want to get signs relayed to them because they found it more of a distraction than a benefit.  

Best hit I ever had in high school was from a stolen sign.

Never played in college though. :kicksrock:

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1 hour ago, The General said:

Wasn’t the technology rule with stealing signs written down?

Yes, but stealing sings, writ large, has been part of the verboten unwritten rules, if I'm not mistaken.

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8 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Yes, but stealing sings, writ large, has been part of the verboten unwritten rules, if I'm not mistaken.

But they wrote this one down. Kind of like Roids they were fine with it, then they weren’t. It’s good to be the ones who weren’t caught - Mike Piazza, Bagwell, etc. 

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1 minute ago, The General said:

But they wrote this one down. Kind of like Roids they were fine with it, then they weren’t. It’s good to be the ones who weren’t caught - Mike Piazza, Bagwell, etc. 

The trick is always to get under the wire.  Do it until you can't do it.

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38 minutes ago, Leroy Hoard said:

The trick is always to get under the wire.  Do it until you can't do it.

I’d say also be a little more subtle. Setting up a monitor in the hallway leading to the dugout? Come on man :lol: 

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3 hours ago, TheIronSheik said:

Hitting a home run gets you a fastball to the ear, too.  Baseball is weird. 

Not anymore. Very few guys even come inside anymore

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8 hours ago, TheIronSheik said:

What do you mean.  It's exactly what he's saying.  That they had camera's pointed at people to learn signs.  They had videotape of it that they would study.

There was an edict against this in 2017 after the Red Sox apple watch incident and it continued, but it pertained specifically to the in game acquisition and application of the technology.  So its very much apples to oranges based on observable information you can decode and decipher.  No one is getting a year ban if you can pick up a sign, see a guy tipping pitches or you relay location from second base.  

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Quote

ダルビッシュ有(Yu Darvish)✔@faridyu

If the Dodgers are planning a 2017 World Series parade, I would love to join! So if that is in the works, can someone make a Yu Garbage Jersey for me?

 

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4 hours ago, TheIronSheik said:

Works for me.  World Champions, baby. :lol:

Of what? Nobody remembers those disgraced cheaters. 👎 
It says a lot about someone that supports trashy team that resorts to cheating.

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I do feel bad for the Dodgers. Two teams swept up in scandal and defeated by both with utterly -- at the very least -- nebulous moral and ethical circumstances surrounding their victories. 108 don't sound so great right now.

Edited by rockaction

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1 hour ago, johnnycakes said:

Yeah, that's big news. I don't feel too badly for Cora, but this is going to really get him in terms of time and distance and future employment. He had the golden goose with those jobs. Now he's just a cheater to most people. 

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I am an Astros fan, but certainly not an apologist

Today I read/heard:

Cora taught the Astros how to steal signs on this level

Yankees, Boston, Dodgers all were proficient at it

Luhnow received written directives from the league in '17 regarding the use of electronics to steal signs. Evidently due to bad feelings between him and the other management, he never forwarded them the rule changed (??!!!?)

So in 2017 it was not illegal and possibly in 2018 word was not given to managers/players at the discretion of Luhnow.

Seems crazy

Also, if Cora was so good at it, where did he learn it before going to the Astros?

 

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4 minutes ago, cosjobs said:

I am an Astros fan, but certainly not an apologist

Today I read/heard:

Cora taught the Astros how to steal signs on this level

Yankees, Boston, Dodgers all were proficient at it

Luhnow received written directives from the league in '17 regarding the use of electronics to steal signs. Evidently due to bad feelings between him and the other management, he never forwarded them the rule changed (??!!!?)

So in 2017 it was not illegal and possibly in 2018 word was not given to managers/players at the discretion of Luhnow.

Seems crazy

Also, if Cora was so good at it, where did he learn it before going to the Astros?

 

This was public knowledge

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1 minute ago, Smack Tripper said:

This was public knowledge

I didn't know it and most of these points have not been discussed in here.

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Just now, cosjobs said:

I didn't know it and most of these points have not been discussed in here.

:shrug: this was announced at the time of the Apple watch stuff.. sox got a slap on the wrist, believe this was Sept/August 2017.  Zero tolerance going forward.

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3 minutes ago, Smack Tripper said:

:shrug: this was announced at the time of the Apple watch stuff.. sox got a slap on the wrist, believe this was Sept/August 2017.  Zero tolerance going forward.

I just noticed you were only referring to one bolded sentence, I thought you meant the entire post

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Just now, cosjobs said:

I just noticed you were only referring to one bolded sentence, I thought you meant the entire post

Yes...

As for who taught Cora, looking back, I think this probably became a "thing" in 2014-ish when they put the video replay apparatus in the dugouts.

Thats one thing that should happen immediately to all teams, that process should be put in the press box in full view of everyone, if there's a replay, buzz down.  Or god forbid, get rid of it all together and save the challenge only for the most egregious plays that you can see were brutal with the naked eye.  It would lend much better flow to the game and add to pace of play.

But all that stuff for all teams needs to go away, as should iPads in the dugout

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55 minutes ago, rockaction said:

Yeah, that's big news. I don't feel too badly for Cora, but this is going to really get him in terms of time and distance and future employment. He had the golden goose with those jobs. Now he's just a cheater to most people. 

He’ll never manage again. Pete Rose’d 

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46 minutes ago, Capella said:

He’ll never manage again. Pete Rose’d 

I agree... if he can't cheat, what's he got?  Cora was a destestable presence to me but he at least exited with some dignity ahead of the storm.  I think Hinch is also disqualified from future employment  but mainly for his awful handling of things after exiting

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13 hours ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

Not anymore. Very few guys even come inside anymore

Acuna would probably argue with you on this.

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11 hours ago, -fish- said:

 

Too bad he got rocked at home in Game 7.  

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5 minutes ago, Cowboysfan8 said:

It’s rare

I'm not saying it's everyday by any means.  But it still happens.  The unwritten rules in baseball are some of the dumbest things in any sport.  

Side note:  The guys running in from the bullpen so they can stand around when benches clear is hands down the dumbest thing in any sport every conceived in mankind.  Baseball could eliminate that so easily just like hockey did.  But they don't.  Because baseball likes this stupid stuff.  They like that an ump can see a guy miss second base and not say anything because no one asked him.  They like that they have a stat that shows how good a catcher is a fooling an umpire.  They love all of this stuff that made baseball America's pastime back in the 1800's.  The only reason they ever make changes is when it comes from within.  And even then, it has to come from within AND have the support of the fans.  i.e. Running into the catcher, which was one of the most exciting plays in all of baseball.  Sure it was out of place and dangerous, but there was nothing more exciting to see if the catcher could hold onto the ball after getting plowed into by a human running at full speed.  Baseball is like any other sport.  

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So last night after the kid's asleep and the house quiets down a bit I sit down in my recliner and start intently reading this thread to try to give myself perspective in a historical sense to all of this.  At best I'm a casual baseball fan.  Watched my "hometown" Nats a lot this year with their run, and will take my son to his first MLB game this upcoming season - will be the first game for me in years.  I really want to know if I should feel "better" about the Nats winning this past year over these "cheaters" or not.

After a few minutes of intent reading, my wife asks what I'm looking at.  I tell her "I'm reading a bit into this Houston Astros sign stealing deal."  We have a few minute discussion about it where she looks interested, but confused.  She said she'd heard a bit about it on the radio or news - but didn't understand why it was such a big deal.  She had apparently thought the entire thing was about Astros players/personnel taking physical signs off the walls of the dugouts or clubhouses and had no idea how that would have given them any competitive advantage. 

God I love her.

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20 minutes ago, matttyl said:

So last night after the kid's asleep and the house quiets down a bit I sit down in my recliner and start intently reading this thread to try to give myself perspective in a historical sense to all of this.  At best I'm a casual baseball fan.  Watched my "hometown" Nats a lot this year with their run, and will take my son to his first MLB game this upcoming season - will be the first game for me in years.  I really want to know if I should feel "better" about the Nats winning this past year over these "cheaters" or not.

After a few minutes of intent reading, my wife asks what I'm looking at.  I tell her "I'm reading a bit into this Houston Astros sign stealing deal."  We have a few minute discussion about it where she looks interested, but confused.  She said she'd heard a bit about it on the radio or news - but didn't understand why it was such a big deal.  She had apparently thought the entire thing was about Astros players/personnel taking physical signs off the walls of the dugouts or clubhouses and had no idea how that would have given them any competitive advantage. 

God I love her.

You should feel really good about your Nats winning as the report stated that the Astros stopped their sign stealing in early 2018.

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Astros fan. Agree with not sure how to feel going forward. Decades ago baseball dropped back into that level of sport that it pretty much took a playoff run to make it worth paying a lot of attention to. But I loved what the championship did for the city. There were some rough times back then with severe oil price drops heavily impacting one of our main industries here. And it had been 20 years since our last major sports championship, so for a lot of people it was the first one they'd seen.

Sucks that the Astros did this to take that luster from the memories. I'll still cheer for them as it's the city's team, but they need to do it right going forward, and not just for the threat of punishment.

Edited by GregR
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I'm from New England. Lifelong Sox fan, and less so Patriots fan.

Patriots videotaping scandal bothered me, but I was able to put it in context that it wasn't a load bearing beam in their dynasty. I did become less of a fan.

But the fact two back-to-back teams employed this cheating method and won the World Series makes it impossible to discount as a non-crucial factor.

Both World Series championships absolutely should be reversed. Every player who participated should be suspended for a year.

I haven't lived in New England for over 25 years, so it's easyish for me to say this, but upon reflection I think this plus the Patriots cheating scandals have led me to the decision to sever my fandom. Hard because for many years I was a passionate Sox zealot. But this stuff matters to me, and because people chose to cheat, they stole dreams from others who were more deserving. I find this detestable to the point of their being villains.

I cannot support a team that did this. I'm out, and shopping for new teams to support.

 

Edited by Mr. Ham
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53 minutes ago, Mr. Ham said:

I'm from New England. Lifelong Sox fan, and less so Patriots fan.

Patriots videotaping scandal bothered me, but I was able to put it in context that it wasn't a load bearing beam in their dynasty. I did become less of a fan.

But the fact two back-to-back teams employed this cheating methods and won the World Series makes it impossible to discount as a crucial factor.

Both World Series championships absolutely should be reversed. Every player who participated should be suspended for a year.

I haven't lived in New England for over 25 years, so it's easyish for me to say this, but upon reflection I think this plus the Patriots cheating scandals have led me to the decision to sever my fandom. Hard because for many years I was a passionate Sox zealot. But this stuff matters to me, and because people chose to cheat, they stole dreams from others who were more deserving. I find this detestable to the point of their being villains.

I cannot support a team that did this. I'm out, and shopping for new teams to support.

 

First off.....I don't have a dog in the fight.  I am not a fan of any of the teams involved. 

 

All teams steal signs.  It's not as crucial of a factor as many are making it into.  Many teams did the same thing as the Sox and Astros.  The rule to ban cameras went into play after the 2017 season.  They continued to utilize it so they get punished.  It doesn't change the fabric of the game.  It was just a different method of sign stealing.  The act itself (sign stealing) isn't cheating......it was just deemed the method (cameras) used to accomplish it was not allowed. 

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1 minute ago, Gally said:

First off.....I don't have a dog in the fight.  I am not a fan of any of the teams involved. 

 

All teams steal signs.  It's not as crucial of a factor as many are making it into.  Many teams did the same thing as the Sox and Astros.  The rule to ban cameras went into play after the 2017 season.  They continued to utilize it so they get punished.  It doesn't change the fabric of the game.  It was just a different method of sign stealing.  The act itself (sign stealing) isn't cheating......it was just deemed the method (cameras) used to accomplish it was not allowed. 

I don’t know, other than to say the Sox team way outperformed expectations, so it at least appears it had a major impact on performance. Games typically come down to a handful of pitches, and I have to believe the method they used was effective at providing a material edge. To me it’s unacceptable. I will not support a team that cheats. 

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1 minute ago, Mr. Ham said:

I don’t know, other than to say the Sox team way outperformed expectations, so it at least appears it had a major impact on performance. Games typically come down to a handful of pitches, and I have to believe the method they used was effective at providing a material edge. To me it’s unacceptable. I will not support a team that cheats. 

All teams steal signs.  It is not cheating.  I think that is where this is getting blown way out of proportion.  It is part of the game....masking your signs and ensuring teams don't steal them is necessary.  Methods to steal signs have evolved over time.  After the 2017 season MLB said don't use cameras.  The act isn't cheating....the method was just disallowed.  I know it is splitting hairs but my point is that it doesn't change the fabric of the game...…..and it is still very difficult to hit a pitch even if you know that it is offspeed vs a fastball. 

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34 minutes ago, Gally said:

After the 2017 season MLB said don't use cameras.

This is bad enough for me. It’s a straw on an already bowed camel’s back, of society losing any sense of communal responsibility in favor of whatever gets you and your tribe an edge. Doing the right thing is more important to me than winning at any cost.

And I’d like to know if any other technology beyond cameras was in use, e.g. AI to decipher signs, which I suspect it was. 

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52 minutes ago, JamesonSkittles said:

Beltran steps down as Mets manager.  

Here baseball though they had their goldem goose -- Latinos and Puerto Ricans that could bridge the average white fan to the average Latino player as manager and then some. It probably had to be laughing all the way to the good will bank.

And then, this. They were on the same team, involved in stealing signs and making the wins...umseemly. 

Oof.

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1 hour ago, Gally said:

The act itself (sign stealing) isn't cheating......it was just deemed the method (cameras) used to accomplish it was not allowed. 

If you do things that have been disallowed to gain an advantage, it's cheating. Stealing signs without the aid of camera technology, on the other hand, is allowed (as far as I know) and is just common gamesmanship.

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3 hours ago, JamesonSkittles said:

Beltran steps down as Mets manager.  

Because of this?  I didn't know the Mets got roped into this too.

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14 hours ago, culdeus said:

Because of this?  I didn't know the Mets got roped into this too.

Beltran was on the 2017 Astros team and was named as one of the "architects" of the system.  So it put him in a weird situation.  He WAS a player at the time, so he was granted immunity.  So while he wasn't going to be suspended, it was still going to be something that was the main focus of the press.

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18 hours ago, JamesonSkittles said:

Beltran steps down as Mets manager.  

Amazingly, he steps down while being undefeated as manager. 

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46 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

Beltran was on the 2017 Astros team and was named as one of the "architects" of the system.  So it put him in a weird situation.  He WAS a player at the time, so he was granted immunity.  So while he wasn't going to be suspended, it was still going to be something that was the main focus of the press.

There is also a question of whether or not he lied to Mets management about his role.  It would be hard to trust a manager that lied about something like this in the interview process.

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Long time baseball guy.... my random .02 fwiw

Yes, sign stealing is a "part of the game".  Figuring out if pitchers are tipping pitches also part of the game.  And if you dont think its not a HUGE advantage to know when an offspeed pitch is coming vs a fastball, then I will disagree.  The timing alone is a huge advantage if I know I can sit back and look away etc etc.

That being said a live feed from a center field camera is so far over the line it's terrible imo.   If your guy is on second base and figure it out so be it, if you guys did film study and know if the pitcher nods his head 2 times for a breaking pitch, great.   If you have a signal in the dugout for a pitch thats coming (whether it be trashcans, whistles,etc) I dont even have a problem with that.

But a LIVE feed on the catcher to tip every pitch is absolutely terrible.  It has no business being in the game, and the fact the teams felt this was "acceptable" is disgusting imo.  

 

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now rumors of buzzers or other devices being taped to the players?

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Just now, matttyl said:

now rumors of buzzers or other devices being taped to the players?

False rumors

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I like the fact that there is a villain in baseball again.  It used to be the Yankees, but they haven't really been the Evil Empire of late.  All the players seemed to be friends and playing Fortnite together.  I think sports are better when you have a team that you can root against.  Especially if they're good.  I would suspect that if the Astros make the playoffs this season, viewership will go up with so many people "hate watching" the games. 

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10 hours ago, belljr said:

Long time baseball guy.... my random .02 fwiw

Yes, sign stealing is a "part of the game".  Figuring out if pitchers are tipping pitches also part of the game.  And if you dont think its not a HUGE advantage to know when an offspeed pitch is coming vs a fastball, then I will disagree.  The timing alone is a huge advantage if I know I can sit back and look away etc etc.

That being said a live feed from a center field camera is so far over the line it's terrible imo.   If your guy is on second base and figure it out so be it, if you guys did film study and know if the pitcher nods his head 2 times for a breaking pitch, great.   If you have a signal in the dugout for a pitch thats coming (whether it be trashcans, whistles,etc) I dont even have a problem with that.

But a LIVE feed on the catcher to tip every pitch is absolutely terrible.  It has no business being in the game, and the fact the teams felt this was "acceptable" is disgusting imo.  

 

It is bad but it is also easily preventable if you were suspicious it was happening.  There shouldn't be a live stream for every pitch for sure and there are now rules against it and teams are being punished for it (as they should be)  But knowing what pitch is coming has been happening since baseball started.  It didn't change the fabric/integrity of the game.  Pitch stealing has always been there.  This method is too much and is being punished as it should be.  My problem with the reaction is that it is being made out to be the worst thing in the history of the world.  It's just being way overblown.

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8 hours ago, TheIronSheik said:

I like the fact that there is a villain in baseball again.  It used to be the Yankees, but they haven't really been the Evil Empire of late.  All the players seemed to be friends and playing Fortnite together.  I think sports are better when you have a team that you can root against.  Especially if they're good.  I would suspect that if the Astros make the playoffs this season, viewership will go up with so many people "hate watching" the games. 

This guy gets it.  Sort of like the Cowboys or Alabama,  good enough but where most people are happy when they lose.

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