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Super Bowl LIV Discussion Thread - 49ers vs Chiefs

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1 hour ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Late to this thread so shut me down if it has been mentioned, but at least four times I saw Garoppolo close his eyes as he was about to be hit, including his interception, and his two handed flailing pass late in the game.  I find that a huge negative.

He looked scared on the sidelines before the game started.  To his credit, he went crazy  efficient despite the horrible INT early.  Then he missed on a long pass.  Dude was great when SFs D could win it on their own. Mahomes exudes championship mentality.  Jimmy G is a guy.

Edited by Dinkle Heimer

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"For the second time in as many Super Bowl appearances, Kyle Shanahan’s team lost a game in which win probability models estimated that it should have won at least 95 times out of 100."  From 538. Ouch.

Edited by Dinkle Heimer

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8 hours ago, Ilov80s said:

Can you imagine how bad KC would be playing right now if they were winning

Looks like it all worked out. 

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7 hours ago, ChiefD said:

Hell yes!

Thank you!!

Congrats dude! Love this squad from coach to stud QB that is humble to a kicker named Butker....awesome to see. 

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7 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Disagree. Have never liked him. Wont start now.

Hate much?  He beat your team fair and square.  Deal with it

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7 hours ago, The Frankman said:

I can't blame this on Shanahan except for one curious decision. 20-17 and they stopped going to Mostert and doing the misdirection WR runs that had been pretty successful, which is why Samuel was kinda quiet in the 2nd half. They seemed to lean more on Jimmy G then to make the right plays out of a more base O instead of following the gameplan of marginalizing him that had worked the whole offseason. If there was one issue I had there, it's not staying with their O and asking Jimmy G to do more when they hadn't all playoffs. Sometimes you have to stay true to your O;  especially when it was working. Keep running the misdirection plays to confuse the edge defenders and run Mostert with your power blocking scheme, especially because running would've killed more clock.

I've seen a lot of BS PI calls but when see the offensive player extend their elbow fully and you see the defender get pushed back, that's an easy call. I think the worst thing about the play is Kittle didn't need to push off, he had the dude beat.

Sounds like you should blame shanahan

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2 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Like I posted in the Garappolo thread, the thing I took away most from this was the decision to kick the field goal on fourth-and-two in KC territory. That expected win probability surprised me. It set them back -5 to kick. Wild. 

My brother was right on top of that from the beginning. 

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4 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Good read, but I would need to see the math on this one:

Quote

I’d also quibble with the Niners’ fourth-quarter decision to punt on fourth-and-5 from their own 25-yard line. They were up three at that point, with 5:18 left on the clock. If they went for it and succeeded, they would have had a chance to ice the game with a long drive. If they didn’t convert, at least they would have known that Mahomes and Co. couldn’t burn all the time off on a game-winning drive.

Intuitively going for it in that situation seems anti-percentage to me, although admittedly it's probably pretty close.

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9 hours ago, Ministry of Pain said:

Does anyone think Damien Williams should have gotten the MVP?

100+ rush

2 TDs in the 4th when they needed it most? 

I thought he and Mahomes deserved it but everyone knows it will go to the QB.  The NFL is looking for the next face of the league to replace Brady.  Mahomes it is.  Jackson will be chasing him.

Also, Williams had a great game but his last chunk of yardage and the TD were not necessary.  If he goes down after getting the first down, the game is over.  Some would have done that just to not five the ball back to the other team with any time left.  

Mahomes is deserving.

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Shanny will be criticized this week by all the talking heads, reservedly so.  Holding the timeouts were a little baffling.  But having JimmyG throw the ball around even up by 3 points was a head-scratcher.  They gave KC 2 or 3 additional TOs by not running the ball.  Or safe quick passes to get Samuel the ball in space. 

imo, there's extra pressure on head coaches that also call the plays (ask Texans fans).  He's busy trying to figure out what packages to call and time management (bigger picture stuff) could slip.  

 

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3 hours ago, Osaurus said:

Looks like it all worked out. 

Yes, KC did a good job limiting their winning. 

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The OPI call, imo, was the right call.  I think 3 or 4 years ago it wouldn't have been called.  WR/DBs have battled each other being handsy for decades.  Thank Sean Payton and the crying they did last year.  There were lots of OPI called this season as PI awareness was under the microscope.  Kittle's last little push prevented the defender from making any type of play on the ball.  Probably would not have been called two years ago.  

KC was lucky they didn't get the 15 and give SF a first down when they pushed JimmyG forcefully out of bounds.  Lots of other QBs would get that call.  

They also missed the helmet-to-helmet on JimmyG on one of the last passes.  That would have DEFINITELY been called on Brady, Brees, Rodgers and some others (probably Mahomes). That should have been another 15 and first down.   

 

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1 hour ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Good read, but I would need to see the math on this one:

Intuitively going for it in that situation seems anti-percentage to me, although admittedly it's probably pretty close.

Yes. I'd want to see the details on that as well. 

I never really considered they might for it there. 

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35 minutes ago, Jayrok said:

KC was lucky they didn't get the 15 and give SF a first down when they pushed JimmyG forcefully out of bounds.  Lots of other QBs would get that call.

Garappolo was still in bounds (at least 2 or 3 yards, right?) and had not given himself up. I don't think that was even a little bit close to a penalty. A push-out, even a hard oner? Totally legal.

 

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11 hours ago, Andy Dufresne said:

That Chris Meyers interview won't be used as a "How To" example anytime soon.

I thought he did well.  It's a really tough task.  Not only that, but Chris and Erin are fantastic sideline reporters in what can obviously be a thankless job.  They completely blow away everyone else including most notably Tafoya and Salters.  

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1 minute ago, Doug B said:

Garappolo was still in bounds (at least 2 or 3 yards, right?) and had not given himself up. I don't think that was even a little bit close to a penalty. A push-out, even a hard oner? Totally legal.

 

He was still in bounds but I thought he was closer to the sidelines.  And it looked like he was going out of bounds on his own (not heading up field for more yardage), but my memory is fading with age.  Maybe it looked worse than it was but I thought to myself that other QBs in that moment would have gotten the penalty.  

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No rooting interest at all here (except for Deebo getting 13 yards rushing which was achieved about 3 minutes into the game).  I thought the game was very well officiated.  OPI was the right call.  Face guarding was the right call.  Garap was still well inbounds on the other one. 

Frankly I think the refs did an excellent job staying out of the way by not calling holdings.  I don't remember any actually.  I think the NFL average is something like 6 per game.  It slows the game down and usually is a judgment call at best.

SF lost this game because #41 didn't properly drop into coverage when they were up 20-10, playing zone, and he went with the crossing route rather than dropping back into a deeper zone, where Hill caught a 40+ yard pass right where 41 should have been.  I think it was 3rd down too so if he does that right SF gets the ball back.  41 even tapped his chest to indicate it was his fault, while Aikman who I like was blaming it on the safety.    That play right there gave KC life.

Edited by Brunell4MVP
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25 minutes ago, Jayrok said:

He was still in bounds but I thought he was closer to the sidelines.  And it looked like he was going out of bounds on his own (not heading up field for more yardage), but my memory is fading with age.  Maybe it looked worse than it was but I thought to myself that other QBs in that moment would have gotten the penalty.  

Here's another look. I wish they had an up-the-sideline angle, though.

Basically, I feel like once a QB leaves the pocket and if the QB is not initiating a slide ... if a ref wouldn't make an unnecessary roughness call on something done to a RB, WR, or TE, then they shouldn't call it on the same thing done to a QB. I know that's not always reality these days.

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1 minute ago, Doug B said:

Here's another look. I wish they had an up-the-sideline angle, though.

Basically, I feel like once a QB leaves the pocket and if the QB is not initiating a slide ... if a ref wouldn't make an unnecessary roughness call on something done to a RB, WR, or TE, then they shouldn't call it on the same thing done to a QB. I know that's not always reality these days.

Thanks for this.  I agree with you that if that's a WR or RB there is no call for unnecessary roughness. I guess I'm used to them protecting QBs when the hit really could have been avoided.  It was a good no call after further review.  Just not used to seeing them not flagging defenders for doing that to an NFL QB.  

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Just read the last several pages after getting up.  Great posts and insights from everyone except Wingnut.  

What a fun Super Bowl.  Just a blast from beginning to end. 

Congrats so much to the Chiefs and their fans.  Classy team and organization with a terrific fan base and a great and unheralded sports city collects another championship following after the Royals.  Mahomes is incredible with that arm and poise.  Their defense didn't get much ink but their gameplan was perfect and a couple of guys like Bashaud Breeland really stepped up.  Also I believe it's possible to win after paying your young QB and I will be interested to see how they handle that.  Picking up unsung gems on D and the o-line will be important.  So will the ability of whoever succeeds Reid whenever that happens.  Bieniemy seems like the real deal.  Loved that spin move he came up with.  

Aikman & Buck called an excellent game (I already shouted out the sideline duo) and Vinovich and his crew did a very, very good job.  (Vinovich's low-key but still authoritative  presence is perfect for an NFL ref.)  I love Kittle but that was clearly OPI.  I admire that the side judge/field judge (I'm assuming) who tossed the flag wasn't afraid to do so in the Super Bowl.  

Great game.  Congrats to KC, the city and their fans.  

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8 minutes ago, Jayrok said:

Thanks for this.  I agree with you that if that's a WR or RB there is no call for unnecessary roughness. I guess I'm used to them protecting QBs when the hit really could have been avoided.  It was a good no call after further review.  Just not used to seeing them not flagging defenders for doing that to an NFL QB.  

I thought it should not have been a flag.  I also thought it was a stupid paly by the D.B. since it was unnecessary , did not effect the play or a first down or a T.D. and he did create a situation where the refs might have made a call.  stupid.

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Great game last night. A huge rebound from last years debacle. 

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The backfield spin move by the Chiefs was pretty cool.  If you've never seen Knute Rockne - All American (1940, Pat O'brien), it's a cool look at how the offense changed football there at ND.  The forward pass and players in motion was his brain-child.

Rockne, apparently, got the idea of synchronized motion by the backfield by watching the Rockettes one evening.  The synchronized dance gave him the idea that motion could confuse the defense and help the running game.  I saw it on TMC a couple of months ago and is what I thought of when the Chiefs did it last night.  

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Hi, my name is Kyle Shanahan.  I'm known as an innovative play caller.......until I get to the Super Bowl.

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Every time I want to feel good for Andy Reid finally getting a SB win, my inner voice sounds like that kid from the Yankees grudgingly giving half-hearted kudos to Tanner Boyle in Bad News Bears

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Well, after a slight hangover this morning, a few thoughts from a 50 year old Chiefs fan:

1. I never thought I would see this day. After gut punch after gut punch in the playoffs, to wake up after we won the last game of the NFL season feels awesome. Just feels so damn good.

2. The niners had us. They played an incredible game and this game indeed was a coin flip. Things were dire in my house in the 4th quarter, and then - BAM. 

3. My kids are 14, 12, and 9. They will have this awesome memory for the rest of their lives. The neighbors going nuts, their dad going nuts, the fireworks going off around the city....Stepping outside last night and just hearing the whole neighborhood outside just screaming and yelling in absolute joy - just incredible.

4. The Niners are built for this for awhile. They'll be back - that is one solid team from top to bottom. 

5. But then again, so are the Chiefs. Would love to see a rematch of this game next year.

6. Finally, it's OUR turn. Andy's turn. The Hunt family's turn. 

7. Mahomes. What can you say. Love the guy for his playing ability, his faith, the way he respects the game, the way he represents our city and the Chiefs....a class guy all the way. 

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Just now, ChiefD said:

The Niners are built for this for awhile. They'll be back - that is one solid team from top to bottom. 

This said year after year, but the post-Super Bowl hangover is real. It's hard even for the winning team ... but for the losing team, it messes with a team's psyche for a while.

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The Chiefs' postseason run was one of the craziest I've ever seen. Mahomes is already tied with Elway and Wilson for 10+ point comebacks in the playoffs (3), and he did it all in one year. Brady is the only QB with more (6), and Pat has 18 years to catch up.

Andy Reid is 7th all-time in regular season wins and 6th all-time in postseason wins now. So happy to see him get the SB monkey off his back -- he deserves credit as one of the all-time greats.

 

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5 hours ago, need2know said:

Sounds like you should blame shanahan

Yeah now that I think about it you're right.

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Congrats Chiefs fans, pretty good Super Bowl.

The one play that had me scratching my head was the SF decision to pass deep on 3rd and 10 with 1:40 left. Even on the upside that the play works, it is a decision to give a hot KC offense the ball with 1:30 and 3 TOs left for the win, needing only a FG to tie. When they missed, it set up a 4th and 10, which is a low odds do or die distance.  

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1 hour ago, Doug B said:

This said year after year, but the post-Super Bowl hangover is real. It's hard even for the winning team ... but for the losing team, it messes with a team's psyche for a while.

Nah - I think the Niners were a year ahead of schedule. They’ve had holes in the secondary all year despite the high ranking, and for all his strengths, our DC seems to let off the gas at the worst possible times.

OL could use a little bolstering, but we don’t have any corner who can match up with speedy receivers. This has been masked by an effective pass-rush.

for 52.5 mins this was the Niners game. They let it get away from them at the end. I think they have a great chance to be back next season. 

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9 minutes ago, BigJim® said:

Congrats Chiefs fans, pretty good Super Bowl.

The one play that had me scratching my head was the SF decision to pass deep on 3rd and 10 with 1:40 left. Even on the upside that the play works, it is a decision to give a hot KC offense the ball with 1:30 and 3 TOs left for the win, needing only a FG to tie. When they missed, it set up a 4th and 10, which is a low odds do or die distance.  

Except they had it - the receiver was open. It would have been a touchdown with a slightly better throw. 

not sure how you can say it was a bad decision. JimmyG throws just a little softer & they take the lead on that play. Game of inches. 

the call was great though - it should have worked. 

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Just now, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Except they had it - the receiver was open. It would have been a touchdown with a slightly better throw. 

not sure how you can say it was a bad decision. JimmyG throws just a little softer & they take the lead on that play. Game of inches. 

the call was great though - it should have worked. 

Well, to be fair, on that play it was a game of a couple of yards.

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Congrats to the Chiefs and their fans. Been a classy Super Bowl run-up & game. No cheap shots, no trash talk - two entertaining teams played an entertaining game. Proud of my team even though it wasn’t the storybook ending I would have liked to have seen. Happy for the Chiefs though because it’s been a long time coming. Andy Reid is one of my favorite coaches, and I’m happy he’s got a ring. 

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I thought you could face guard as a defender.  Am I wrong about that?

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1 minute ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Well, to be fair, on that play it was a game of a couple of yards.

Splitting hairs. The point remains. 

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3 minutes ago, bryhamm said:

I thought you could face guard as a defender.  Am I wrong about that?

You can but you cannot make contact and prevent the offensive player from going back to catch the ball.  The fact his head wasn't turned is not the cause of the penalty.  The contact prior to the ball arriving is what caused the penalty.

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1 minute ago, Gally said:

You can but you cannot make contact and prevent the offensive player from going back to catch the ball.  The fact his head wasn't turned is not the cause of the penalty.  The contact prior to the ball arriving is what caused the penalty.

Gotcha.  In real time it looked like Kelce initiated the contact when he tried to come back for the ball.  Wasn't really sure what the correct call was.  Sounds like a smart move by Kelce to "force" the flag.

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9 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Splitting hairs. The point remains. 

Indeed.  The Kittle play could have been a huge momentum swing.  The missed connection to Sanders could have gone a long way to salting the game away.  Mahommes connection to Hill for 44 yards was a badly thrown duck, well short, and hung up in the air an amount of time making it a dangerous throw.  The pass interference Kelce drew was a ball so badly underthrown the D.B. was shocked,.  Momentum and luck were stalking that field.   Who knows but that one timely play may have swung the whole thing. 

Edited by Ditkaless Wonders
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3 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

Except they had it - the receiver was open. It would have been a touchdown with a slightly better throw. 

not sure how you can say it was a bad decision. JimmyG throws just a little softer & they take the lead on that play. Game of inches. 

the call was great though - it should have worked. 

I don't care enough to debate it, but even if they connected as a best case scenario, it was a decision that places the ball in the hands of KC's hot offense to determine the outcome. The two prior KC drives were:

10 plays, 83 yards, 2:40 (TD)

7 plays, 65 yards, 2:26 (TD)

JMHO, I'd have expected SF to keep fate in their own hands and take advantage of a 4-down drive to score a winning TD.

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1 minute ago, Ditkaless Wonders said:

Indeed.  The Kittle play could have been a huge momentum swing.  The missed connection to Sanders could have gone a long way to salting the game away.  Mahommes connection to hill for 44 yards was a badly thrown duck, well short, and hung up in the air an amount of time making it a dangerous throw.  The pass interference Kelce drew was a ball so badly underthrown the D.B. was shocked,.  Momentum and luck were stalking that field.   Who knows but that one play may have swung the whole thing. 

I still don't think it was necessarily a badly thrown ball.  The defender was in no position to make a play and the throw forced the DPI because Kelce had to stop and come back into the defender.  A throw that leads Kelce may not have been able to be completed because it would have been easier for the defender to make a play without interfering.  It would not surprise me if the throw was in that location on purpose to draw the penalty. 

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3 minutes ago, BigJim® said:

I don't care enough to debate it, but even if they connected as a best case scenario, it was a decision that places the ball in the hands of KC's hot offense to determine the outcome. The two prior KC drives were:

10 plays, 83 yards, 2:40 (TD)

7 plays, 65 yards, 2:26 (TD)

JMHO, I'd have expected SF to keep fate in their own hands and take advantage of a 4-down drive to score a winning TD.

You score when given the chance.  You cannot win if you don't take the lead and if there is someone open for  a TD  you take that over just getting the first down. 

 

ETA:  You can change up and play it differently in a situation where you only need a FG or are in a goal to go situation where time isn't a factor for your team but in this case you score when you can and worry about the defense later. 

Edited by Gally
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Just now, Gally said:

You score when given the chance.  You cannot win if you don't take the lead and if there is someone open for  a TD  you take that over just getting the first down. 

And yet, they didn't score. They didn't have a realistic chance at 4th and 10. Even had they connected, I'd have liked KCs odds of scoring in 1:30 with 3 TOs. I don't see a lot of upside in the playcall, but oh well, as mentioned it's just an opinion.

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Just now, Gally said:

I still don't think it was necessarily a badly thrown ball.  The defender was in no position to make a play and the throw forced the DPI because Kelce had to stop and come back into the defender.  A throw that leads Kelce may not have been able to be completed because it would have been easier for the defender to make a play without interfering.  It would not surprise me if the throw was in that location on purpose to draw the penalty. 

I believe in back shoulder throws or come backs on the sidelines.  I don't believe in them on go routes.  All that defender had to do was turn his head and he is in perfect position to intercept the ball. I don't think that throw was deliberate or strategy.  I could well be wrong.  You could well be right.

 

I do think Kelce reacted perfectly to draw the flag. How, by actually going for the ball, getting his hands on it, and being plowed over instead of stopping , throwing his hands in the air, and staring at the ref begging for a flag.  Lots of receivers think flag before catch and it shows.  the good ones always think catch and that leads, very naturally, to the flag without being a whiner for calls.

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2 hours ago, Doug B said:

This said year after year, but the post-Super Bowl hangover is real. It's hard even for the winning team ... but for the losing team, it messes with a team's psyche for a while.

Especially when the whole team knows the coach simply doesn't trust the most important player on the field. Kudos to Mahomes and KC for sure, but that was a fairly monumental collapse.  This one doesn't go away so easy.

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