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*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (15 Viewers)

The Commish said:
Yeah, our house is fully google :bag:  

Thought there might be a way to do it outside my personal account...not an issue though...I can put it out there that way if anyone's interested.
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There probably is -- people set up Google spreadsheets for TimDrafts and I don't think they're tied to anyone's Google account. @AAABatteries ?

 
The Commish said:
Ok...carry on....had heard my wife and colleagues talking about it.
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I did see a blurb yesterday about early reports of the UK's more severe spread recently being due to a "new" strain, but nothing definitive. That might be what they were referring to. I forget what news site I saw that on now. If I find it again, I'll post a link. 

 
Capella said:
Leeroy Jenkins said:
There have been like 20 mutations.  
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From what I read though, the vax is easy to change to account for these. Somebody said it’s like changing the lock on your door. 
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@Terminalxylem and others in the field have discussed viral mutations in this thread. Viruses mutate all the time and it's fully expected that they do so. Almost all mutations have no affect on the virus as a human pathogen (transmissibility, severity of symptoms, etc.). Yes, a very tiny number of mutations make a difference ... but it's not like COVID is just changing drastically all the time and thus there's no hope for getting a handle on it.

 
Dr_Zaius said:
the 25 year old has been working in a high risk environment for months without getting sick, you could see how they would be less likely to jump at the chance to take a fast-tracked vaccine. 
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I guess everyone's experience/perception is different, but the virus tore through my daughter's facility (both faculty and residents) leaving a trail of suffering and death. If anything, it scared her into wanting the vaccine.

 
The Commish said:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CcugsJbK0Ih6nMiQYUjpb53W4oVzpZ_U/view?usp=sharing
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Great commentary! Thanks for sharing. And I see one thing I know we discussed in here the last week or so:

Again, we don't know at this point whether people can still transmit SARS-CoV-2 after vaccination. Wear your mask until we find out! If the majority of the population does not get vaccinated, and people are spreading even after the vaccine and not wearing a mask, then we will still have a large number of cases.
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Doug B said:
Not attempting to besmirch an undeniably noble profession:

Nursing training is not really scientific training. Nurses train to do a lot of grunt work, and to do it as efficiently as humanly possible. The underlying science behind the training is, at best, glossed over. It's a lot less important in nursing to understand the whys and wherefores -- just do as you were taught. Or do what the doctor says.

Now then. Some nurses are curious sorts who pay close attention to what's going on around them in the hospital. They'll talk to the doctors and ask insightful questions, and they'll accumulate a lot of good practical knowledge throughout their careers. But that's far, far from all nurses.
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I am a nurse. I hope I qualify as the curious sort that looks to understand and pay close attention- I learn something new every day. There are a wide variety of nurses in this country, based on: education, personal work ethic and, most importantly, level of care. One can work in some care areas with a very limited understanding of anatomy, physiology and pathophysiology. Other areas, you won't last long without that knowledge.

That said, in general,  the above post is very true. We are lucky to have some bona fide experts on this board, that share their expertise and insights on a very fluid and dynamic fight against a novel disease. Nurses aren't experts on COVID, and a lot of times, aren't even as educated as laypeople. I run into it a lot at work. RNs, whose opinions and clinical expertise I value, have some downright nonscientific and superstitious views regarding this disease, and the vaccine.

I've worked exclusively in the COVID ward of our hospital since we had one, back in February/March. I feel safer working in there with all of the PPE than I do going out to Lowe's or Costco with a surgical mask. I'd be fine not getting the vaccine for work, but I want it for the rest of the time, when I am not on the unit. There are a lot of people I work with who are suspicious of the vaccine. I have to admit, there's part of me that is worried, too. I've treated people and heard of a lot more instances of severe neurological symptoms after viral infections, or even vaccines (Epstein Barr scares the crap out of me). I've also seen some of what was mentioned above, too, with younger female RNs being worried about possible complications to pregnancy. The whole "not knowing" is scary. Add in that there is not a ton of reliable information out there about how long immunity lasts. It is understandable why there is a lot of reluctance to be the first one to get a vaccine that was "rushed into production and approval".

tl;dr. I'm an RN and I wasn't even a little bit offended by DougB's post. I'm getting the vaccine, but still feel a little nervous about it. I know a lot of RNs that will probably opt out of getting it. Don't rely on RNs as your primary source of information or advice on how to handle any of this- none of us are inherently any more qualified than any civilian, by virtue of being trained as an RN. Some are doing due diligence to understand the science and medicine behind new advances, and some are as bad as your Aunt Sandy on facebook.

 
ProstheticRGK said:
Some are doing due diligence to understand the science and medicine behind new advances, and some are as bad as your Aunt Sandy on facebook.
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The first staffer at Kaiser Permanente Los Angeles Medical Center to receive the vaccine, ICU nurse Helen Cordova, was interviewed on CNN a little after 1 p.m. EST today. Cordova said that initially she didn't want to take the vaccine at all. It was only after doing her own research and collecting information herself that she was able to reach a level of comfort about the safety of the vaccine -- a level sufficient for her to be front and center for her inoculation.

 
Doug B said:
The first staffer at Kaiser Permanente Los Angeles Medical Center to receive the vaccine, ICU nurse Helen Cordova, was interviewed on CNN a little after 1 p.m. EST today. Cordova said that initially she didn't want to take the vaccine at all. It was only after doing her own research and collecting information herself that she was able to reach a level of comfort about the safety of the vaccine -- a level sufficient for her to be front and center for her inoculation.
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Same story as me. Still a little tinge of nerves about it, but I feel comfortable getting it. And have tried to share my findings with other nurses in my department. A lot of my findings are directly pulled from here, btw, thanks to a lot of you all.  :thanks:  

 
bcat01 said:
Hospitals already require employees to get the flu shot, so I don't see how this will be any different once the vaccine has become readily available.
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DallasDMac said:
This was what I said to the wife. They'll have to employ them while the crisis is on-going due to shortages. But once vaccines are widespread and things return to a sense of normalcy, it will make it fairly easy to know who to let go first.
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The Z Machine said:
My wife works at a university office building adjacent to a large hospital.  She has to get a flu shot each year, otherwise she cannot enter her building (offices + classrooms, no medical facilities).  I am certain that she will be obligated to get a COVID vax.

I don't see why other employers cannot handle this the same way.  "You want to come on campus and work in the office?  Get a vax.  If you don't want to get a vax, work from home." (and get crappy assignments and no career advancement, but that part won't be said)
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The point is mute currently with only an emergency use authorization. No employer in the US can currently mandate employees get the vaccine. After the FDA gives full approval then employers can legally require employees to get vaccinated just like any other vaccine. 

 
Doug B said:
The first staffer at Kaiser Permanente Los Angeles Medical Center to receive the vaccine, ICU nurse Helen Cordova, was interviewed on CNN a little after 1 p.m. EST today. Cordova said that initially she didn't want to take the vaccine at all. It was only after doing her own research and collecting information herself that she was able to reach a level of comfort about the safety of the vaccine -- a level sufficient for her to be front and center for her inoculation.
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Great. Now this is going to lead to all the skeptics "doing their own research" and deciding that this is just another governmental ploy to control us

 
ProstheticRGK said:
tl;dr. I'm an RN and I wasn't even a little bit offended by DougB's post. I'm getting the vaccine, but still feel a little nervous about it. I know a lot of RNs that will probably opt out of getting it. Don't rely on RNs as your primary source of information or advice on how to handle any of this- none of us are inherently any more qualified than any civilian, by virtue of being trained as an RN. Some are doing due diligence to understand the science and medicine behind new advances, and some are as bad as your Aunt Sandy on facebook.
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I’m glad that you didn’t take offense to his post. I’m sure some nurses might though and the general public might have viewed it as taking a swipe at nurses. Healthcare is a collaborative effort and training is tailored to each professions role. I view nurses as the ultimate ‘doers’ in much of the care. They take the care prescribed by the doctors and the medications prescribed by doctors and reviewed by pharmacists and put it into action. There’s good reason why most patients end up with more of a connection to their nurses than the doctors when receiving hospital care.

As a pharmacist I occasionally I’ll get a patient that comes in and says that they trust my opinion more than the doctor. I’m also quick to point out that I am trained to be the expert on drugs, they’re trained to be experts in everything else. I received the ‘10,000 feet’ training of what doctors do in identifying, diagnosing and treating disease. If someone tells my that I’m not an expert, that’s absolutely true. I may have a good idea of what’s being treated based on the drug regimen but that’s not my role.

Nurses can become extremely knowledgeable in their specialty and can almost reach that of a physician but much of that is experience based not from the initially schooling. Most nurses in my experience will vastly improve their knowledge but there are some that never go beyond that initially basic knowledge and that’s true for any profession. Universally they seem to hate pharmacist explaining anything to them.

 
the moops said:
No, I know. Just sort of skeptical about the whole "well, I did the research myself now feel comfortable" line
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Nothing wrong with educating yourself.  I applaud her.  In addition, I believe she came to the correct conclusion.

----

In other news, it looks like wild mink in Utah are the first wild animals to catch COVID in the US. 

And, actually, I had no idea the US had indigenous mink.  Why wasn't I told of this?   :kicksrock:

 
Biff84 said:
I’m glad that you didn’t take offense to his post. I’m sure some nurses might though and the general public might have viewed it as taking a swipe at nurses. Healthcare is a collaborative effort and training is tailored to each professions role. I view nurses as the ultimate ‘doers’ in much of the care. They take the care prescribed by the doctors and the medications prescribed by doctors and reviewed by pharmacists and put it into action. There’s good reason why most patients end up with more of a connection to their nurses than the doctors when receiving hospital care.

As a pharmacist I occasionally I’ll get a patient that comes in and says that they trust my opinion more than the doctor. I’m also quick to point out that I am trained to be the expert on drugs, they’re trained to be experts in everything else. I received the ‘10,000 feet’ training of what doctors do in identifying, diagnosing and treating disease. If someone tells my that I’m not an expert, that’s absolutely true. I may have a good idea of what’s being treated based on the drug regimen but that’s not my role.

Nurses can become extremely knowledgeable in their specialty and can almost reach that of a physician but much of that is experience based not from the initially schooling. Most nurses in my experience will vastly improve their knowledge but there are some that never go beyond that initially basic knowledge and that’s true for any profession. Universally they seem to hate pharmacist explaining anything to them.
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Yeah, don't get me wrong, I am not at all down on nurses. A good, experienced nurse is worth their weight in gold to the care team. We are the first line of defense in recognizing early signs of a patient circling the drain. Understanding that and communicating it effectively to the rest of the care team is vital.

I work pretty closely with the pharmacists at our hospital, too. I won't say I've never gotten annoyed at having really basic stuff explained to me, but I know they've helped and kept me out of trouble way more than I've been mildly annoyed.

 
Joe Bryant said:
No idea on the backstory on this but just see it's being reported. 

Please everyone be more cool. And be extra respectful of nurses. 
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Totally serious when I say, I would love to hear WHY this post was reported. And Joe, I know you don't have that answer, only the person that reported it does. But if you are following this thread, there was nothing malicious/personal/disparaging about that post. I can't even blame someone being "thin skinned" because even that  wouldn't rationally explain it. I'd love to hear the rationale behind anyone hitting the report button on that post.

 
ProstheticRGK said:
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I am not at all down on nurses. A good, experienced nurse is worth their weight in gold to the care team. We are the first line of defense in recognizing early signs of a patient circling the drain. Understanding that and communicating it effectively to the rest of the care team is vital.

I work pretty closely with the pharmacists at our hospital, too. I won't say I've never gotten annoyed at having really basic stuff explained to me, but I know they've helped and kept me out of trouble way more than I've been mildly annoyed.
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I’m on the retail side, so it’s usually just nurses getting annoyed if we try to counsel on a new medication. My sarcastic responses haven’t gone over well.

 
culdeus said:
This is unlikely.  From talking to wife's hospital they are getting ready for a tremendous wave of opt-outs, putting class 3s in line for March.  I believe you will see a flip from having too little to having too much, very soon.  
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Locally, I’m not hearing about many opt-outs. My 60+ member group has like four who didn’t want to get the vaccine this week, and I’m pretty sure they’re just waiting until next week when they aren’t working.

 
the moops said:
Great. Now this is going to lead to all the skeptics "doing their own research" and deciding that this is just another governmental ploy to control us
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No worries, move aside please so I can move up in line  :thumbup:

Doug B said:
:shrug:

Those people were never going to buy in, anyway.
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Pretty much this. I think most who are questioning the vaccine aren't of the mindset of ever being on board with it regardless of research. Some will but like everything with this ####### virus, it's viewed through a political lens. If you take the vaccine, you support ____. You can't support ____ if you think ____ won the election. Insert your own blanks and by no means is this 100% but I think it's a fair assumption if you are one side of the aisle, you think a certain way about the vaccine and it's the opposite of the other side of the aisle.

 
ProstheticRGK said:
I am a nurse. I hope I qualify as the curious sort that looks to understand and pay close attention- I learn something new every day. There are a wide variety of nurses in this country, based on: education, personal work ethic and, most importantly, level of care. One can work in some care areas with a very limited understanding of anatomy, physiology and pathophysiology. Other areas, you won't last long without that knowledge.

That said, in general,  the above post is very true. We are lucky to have some bona fide experts on this board, that share their expertise and insights on a very fluid and dynamic fight against a novel disease. Nurses aren't experts on COVID, and a lot of times, aren't even as educated as laypeople. I run into it a lot at work. RNs, whose opinions and clinical expertise I value, have some downright nonscientific and superstitious views regarding this disease, and the vaccine.

I've worked exclusively in the COVID ward of our hospital since we had one, back in February/March. I feel safer working in there with all of the PPE than I do going out to Lowe's or Costco with a surgical mask. I'd be fine not getting the vaccine for work, but I want it for the rest of the time, when I am not on the unit. There are a lot of people I work with who are suspicious of the vaccine. I have to admit, there's part of me that is worried, too. I've treated people and heard of a lot more instances of severe neurological symptoms after viral infections, or even vaccines (Epstein Barr scares the crap out of me). I've also seen some of what was mentioned above, too, with younger female RNs being worried about possible complications to pregnancy. The whole "not knowing" is scary. Add in that there is not a ton of reliable information out there about how long immunity lasts. It is understandable why there is a lot of reluctance to be the first one to get a vaccine that was "rushed into production and approval".

tl;dr. I'm an RN and I wasn't even a little bit offended by DougB's post. I'm getting the vaccine, but still feel a little nervous about it. I know a lot of RNs that will probably opt out of getting it. Don't rely on RNs as your primary source of information or advice on how to handle any of this- none of us are inherently any more qualified than any civilian, by virtue of being trained as an RN. Some are doing due diligence to understand the science and medicine behind new advances, and some are as bad as your Aunt Sandy on facebook.
Click to expand...
Listen here buddy, you need to be way cooler to yourself.

 
parasaurolophus said:
Do you know any more details about that test? I saw that NPR article and it said 30 bucks. But I am kind of wondering if the test itself will be 30 bucks, but then the device will be more. Seemed crazy to me that you get the test stuff and then a device that communicates via your wifi all for 30 bucks. 
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https://www.ellumehealth.com/

I read it as $119 + $30 ish per test it sounds like.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
IvanKaramazov said:
Nice of the FDA to get around to this nine months too late and just before this product is about to become irrelevant.
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This one I completely agree with you on. There was no data to wait for here. This was based purely on false sense of security mumbo jumbo that is apparently incredibly prevalent among  doctors, epidemiologists, and virologists. Which is weird since they get pretty upset when people don't stay in their lane. 

 
The news states we haven't seen a T'giving spike, but US and worldwide trends are still lousy.  Per Covid worldometers, 715,000 new cases today and 13,500 deaths.  In the US, 250,000 new cases and 3,500 deaths ...a death every 30 seconds.  Great to see the vaccine hitting the market, but it's still gonna be a difficult winter.  Still so frustrating to see the US so disproportionately represented.

 
Seems like the Mid-Atlantic may be about to roll off from the current peak.  From covidtracking, ICU in PA, NJ, and MD all slightly down from yesterday after being roughly flat for a few days.  OH (yes, I know not Mid-Atlantic) slightly down in both hospitalizations and ICU.  NY still slightly up in both.  Hopefully they follow the Upper Midwest trend and start coming down.

 
My tiny county with a population <100k has been averaging over 200 positive cases per day for the last 2 weeks, or so.  :shock:

I guess we are trying to test the herd immunity theory.

 
Penguin said:
California reported over 61k today :shock:
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Yup---it's really bad out here. I'm in Orange County and there is 0% ICU bed capacity left.  They are starting to build field hospitals to help deal with overflow.  The children's hospital out here (CHOC) has agreed to take adults that are up to 29 years old that have Covid to help treat them.    Apparently they are calling retired doctors, nurses, medical personnel to see they are willing to get back to work and help with the crisis.  Having a job that forces me to work with the public in this environment is brutally stressful.  Be safe everybody 

 
Drunken Cowboy said:
ProstheticRGK said:
My tiny county with a population <100k has been averaging over 200 positive cases per day for the last 2 weeks, or so.  :shock:

I guess we are trying to test the herd immunity theory.
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The county where I  grew up is around 7k in population and is getting 50 ish cases per day.
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My county of just over 100k is nearing 10% of the population with a confirmed case since the pandemic started. December we are averaging over 800 positives a week, November was 700+ a week, October 500+ and September was 100+ weekly.

 
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