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Startup Position Talk (1 Viewer)

Zyphros

Footballguy
Do you guys prefer a particularly spot for a startup?  Each year my thoughts change for this question but sometimes people just prefer the 6 so they're not on the edges.  Sometimes they prefer the edges.  I've been playing fantasy for about 10 years now, dynasty for about 5, and I've never picked from the 12 spot.  I joined a new one and am slotted from 12 this time.  Had to happen eventually right?  Anyways this has me in my head a bit about how to handle it because my first thought is that I am the start of value picks and I am the the start of runs.  The value isn't there as often from my mocks I've done.  I'm likely to trade down as well but that depends on offers and the league itself. 

Anyways my 2 questions for this topic is do certain spots make you guys a bit concerned?  

What's your general strategy when it comes to wherever you're slotted?  

 
For me it's the top of the draft and it's not close.

A good indicator of this is any time I have a pick near the back and try to swap 1st/2nd round picks while giving up a free upgrade later on it is typically rejected without much thought.

For instance recently I offered 1.10/2.03/4.03 for 1.02/2.11/4.11 from someone that had 1.02 on the board and it was rejected and told it was not close.  I couldn't really blame him on that.

Consider that if all draft positions are equal than 1.10/2.03 should be equal to 1.02/2.11, so the 4.11 upgrade to 4.03 is completely free value, AND that's not considering that the person in the 1.02 spot already has a much more valuable 3rd round pick, AND this was someone that wasn't married to Saquon/CMC and was actually looking to trade down, yet that free upgrade still wasn't considered close.

If nothing else even if you want to pick at the back of the 1st/2nd round if you have the early picks you can almost always swap 1st/2nd round picks and get something added free on top of it, all while having a much more valuable 3rd round pick to boot.

I really think people not taking the top picks in this case are overthinking things.

 
For me it's the top of the draft and it's not close.

A good indicator of this is any time I have a pick near the back and try to swap 1st/2nd round picks while giving up a free upgrade later on it is typically rejected without much thought.

For instance recently I offered 1.10/2.03/4.03 for 1.02/2.11/4.11 from someone that had 1.02 on the board and it was rejected and told it was not close.  I couldn't really blame him on that.

Consider that if all draft positions are equal than 1.10/2.03 should be equal to 1.02/2.11, so the 4.11 upgrade to 4.03 is completely free value, AND that's not considering that the person in the 1.02 spot already has a much more valuable 3rd round pick, AND this was someone that wasn't married to Saquon/CMC and was actually looking to trade down, yet that free upgrade still wasn't considered close.

If nothing else even if you want to pick at the back of the 1st/2nd round if you have the early picks you can almost always swap 1st/2nd round picks and get something added free on top of it, all while having a much more valuable 3rd round pick to boot.

I really think people not taking the top picks in this case are overthinking things.
My draft specifically is a superflex, so those values change quite a bit but I get what you're saying.  There's definitely a premium in the early part of the rounds and it's hard to move up.  That might mean trading down is the better scenario but it's hard to find value there.  Everyone typically wants to trade down I've found as well.  

 
For a dynasty start up doing a snake draft is a disservice to everyone involved.  The point of dynasty is to build a team for longevity.  Because of this every owner should have the opportunity to get any player they want.  In a snake draft that doesn't happen.  I would push to get any dynasty start up as an auction.

Now, as far as what spot is preferred for a snake draft, I have always preferred an end.  My drafts seem to be a lot more connected as its easier to plan picks to build my team.  Whenever I pick from the middle my teams seem disjointed.  As far as top or bottom of the draft it generally depends on if there is a player a really want or if there are more on the tiers that I am fine with.  Either way, I always prefer top or bottom 3 draft slots.

 
Earlier is better, for the most part, because there's such a huge dropoff in value over the first round. McCaffrey is worth close to twice as much as anyone you can get at 1.12. If it's superflex then Mahomes is too. Although if there's a part of the first round where you think the BPA value is roughly flat then it can be good to draft later (e.g., if you think McCaffrey vs. Mahomes is a tossup in superflex then you're probably better off with pick 2).

Picking in the middle of the round is better than picking on the turn, because when I have the first pick in a round I find that the jerk right in front of me always snipes the guy I was hoping for. Whereas when my picks are 12 apart I don't keep sniping myself. But this is less important than the McCaffrey/Mahomes windfall.

 
I don't like 1(save for round 1!) or 12 at all. Gimme 2/11 or 3/10. I'd rather be the guy controlling the turn than at the mercy of another.  Or than that,  i don't care 4 though 9. 

I guess that's true for dynasty or redraft. So it's not quite a unique answer per the thread title. 

 
For a dynasty start up doing a snake draft is a disservice to everyone involved.  The point of dynasty is to build a team for longevity.  Because of this every owner should have the opportunity to get any player they want.  In a snake draft that doesn't happen.  I would push to get any dynasty start up as an auction.
:goodposting:

This. I wouldn't just push for it, I'd choose not to play in any Dynasty League that didn't use an auction for the initial Player disbursement process. Now, that's my choice, but I strongly feel that the auction format is the most equitable way to allow every Owner to pursue their own individual short and long term strategies for building the foundation of their franchise.

 
I don't like 1(save for round 1!) or 12 at all. Gimme 2/11 or 3/10. I'd rather be the guy controlling the turn than at the mercy of another.  Or than that,  i don't care 4 though 9. 

I guess that's true for dynasty or redraft. So it's not quite a unique answer per the thread title. 
I guess I can see that point however you do have control being at the turn as well.  It's a different kind of control.  If you are 2/11 or 3/10 you can track the middle picks but that can force you to take a player at a position based on how they have picked.  I think there are advantages to being in either spot and it is easily adaptable regardless of which spot you are in.  Being at the end you can kick off runs fairly easily if you can plan and anticipate the draft flow. 

No matter what being in one of those spots (top 3 or bottom 3) are definitely my preference.  I HATE being in the middle of a snake draft. 

 
I'm a big draft fan myself (vs auction) -- I totally get why people like auctions, but I prefer the experience of a draft (probably for dumb purely sentimental reasons). It has been a couple of years since I've had one but I'm currently in a superflex dynasty startup right now.

We did it "derby style" -- which I had to google -- but for those who also didn't know it just means the random "draft order" is really your "choice order" for picking which draft slot you want. I had a mid round choice and ended up taking the 1.03. I like being near ends for a lot of the reasons already mentioned, and I'd much rather have a top 3 than top 9 pick. I've mortgaged my depth and future a bit by trading a lot, but so far I've got Mahomes, Saquon, Melvin Gordon, Keenan Allen, Devante Parker, Evan Engram, Drew Lock, and Jarrett Stidham (through round 8). I don't think there's any way I can get both Mahomes and Saquon on a startup team together in an auction format (unless you can trade for bid $'s I guess).

 
I guess I can see that point however you do have control being at the turn as well.  It's a different kind of control.  If you are 2/11 or 3/10 you can track the middle picks but that can force you to take a player at a position based on how they have picked.  I think there are advantages to being in either spot and it is easily adaptable regardless of which spot you are in.  Being at the end you can kick off runs fairly easily if you can plan and anticipate the draft flow. 

No matter what being in one of those spots (top 3 or bottom 3) are definitely my preference.  I HATE being in the middle of a snake draft. 
I did just this yesterday in my SF draft -- I saw that several teams that were waiting on QBs had acquired lots of 6-7th round picks and I still only had 1 QB with a big trade-related gap coming. I traded my rookie 1.10 (this year) for an early 6 and took Drew Lock as QB13 (an overpay probably, but I like his situation more than Daniel Jones who went at QB12 a few picks earlier). That set off a run where 16 of the next 21 picks were QBs. I grabbed Jarrett Stidham at the very end of the run as my QB3 -- we'll see if that works.

 
I'm a big draft fan myself (vs auction) -- I totally get why people like auctions, but I prefer the experience of a draft (probably for dumb purely sentimental reasons). It has been a couple of years since I've had one but I'm currently in a superflex dynasty startup right now.

We did it "derby style" -- which I had to google -- but for those who also didn't know it just means the random "draft order" is really your "choice order" for picking which draft slot you want. I had a mid round choice and ended up taking the 1.03. I like being near ends for a lot of the reasons already mentioned, and I'd much rather have a top 3 than top 9 pick. I've mortgaged my depth and future a bit by trading a lot, but so far I've got Mahomes, Saquon, Melvin Gordon, Keenan Allen, Devante Parker, Evan Engram, Drew Lock, and Jarrett Stidham (through round 8). I don't think there's any way I can get both Mahomes and Saquon on a startup team together in an auction format (unless you can trade for bid $'s I guess).
But that is the exact point.  You can get both of those in an auction but you will just have to pay for it and suffer elsewhere.  Nobody else in the "draft" the way you did it had a chance to get both Mahomes and Barkley.  I am not sure what picks you used to get them but I am sure nobody else could have gotten both of them.  To me that is a terrible thing in a dynasty start up situation.  By luck of the draw (and your trades) you were able to be in a position to draft those two players where players at the bottom half of the draft likely had zero opportunity to get either one.  To me that is a travesty when starting a dynasty league. 

Re-draft is a different story.  You aren't stuck with this team for years and can start over again next year. 

 
But that is the exact point.  You can get both of those in an auction but you will just have to pay for it and suffer elsewhere.  Nobody else in the "draft" the way you did it had a chance to get both Mahomes and Barkley.  I am not sure what picks you used to get them but I am sure nobody else could have gotten both of them.  To me that is a terrible thing in a dynasty start up situation.  By luck of the draw (and your trades) you were able to be in a position to draft those two players where players at the bottom half of the draft likely had zero opportunity to get either one.  To me that is a travesty when starting a dynasty league. 

Re-draft is a different story.  You aren't stuck with this team for years and can start over again next year. 
Yeah I get what you're saying -- and I've only ever done a few auction startups and it has been awhile, so my experience isn't great there. In the ones I did long ago, the prices for those top 4-5 players were so high that there just literally wasn't a way for you to have both guys. That might not be a typical experience though, I'd defer to you all on that.

Like I said, I totally get why auctions are more fair, there's just something I prefer about drafts for some reason.

 
For draft position I find it very year dependent. For example, last year I did not like the middle at all, it felt like the top 4 had way less question marks (Elliot, McCaffery, Kamara, Barkley), and then you had a range of 10 or so guys that were essentially interchangeable on paper. Obviously in hindsight players in this tier like Cook and Michael Thomas were great picks, but at the time it felt like picking # 5 - 8  was a massive disadvantage compared 1-4 or 9-12 based on tier cutoffs, where at 4 you get a tier 1 and tier 3 player, at 5 you get a tier 2 and tier 3 player, and at 10 you get 2 tier 2 players.

I realize auction is better for this exact reason where you can commit $ to players you believe in, but I don't have time to do 4 hour drafts and I kind of like the "predictability" for a lack of a better term of snake drafts, where you can gamble on players to get later etc. 

 
Do you guys prefer a particularly spot for a startup?  Each year my thoughts change for this question but sometimes people just prefer the 6 so they're not on the edges.  Sometimes they prefer the edges.  I've been playing fantasy for about 10 years now, dynasty for about 5, and I've never picked from the 12 spot.  I joined a new one and am slotted from 12 this time.  Had to happen eventually right?  Anyways this has me in my head a bit about how to handle it because my first thought is that I am the start of value picks and I am the the start of runs.  The value isn't there as often from my mocks I've done.  I'm likely to trade down as well but that depends on offers and the league itself. 

Anyways my 2 questions for this topic is do certain spots make you guys a bit concerned?  

What's your general strategy when it comes to wherever you're slotted?  
I have created 3 dynasty leagues.  1997, 2010 and 2016.

Each time I did something different.

1997 was my first dynasty startup we drew picks every other round (reversing the even rounds) and had no trades.  Back then we were doing this live with pen and paper and doing a quick 2-3 hour draft.  That is all we knew back then I didn't even have the internet I did entire league on paper and drove people's lineups to their houses on Saturday nights. Separate random draw for rookie picks.

2010 I had the MFL draw the picks for every other round (reversing the even rounds) doing a slow draft with trades of course.  This way if you got pick 12 you didn't get 12/1 every round this is a much more fair way then having a person pigioned holed into 1 spot the entire draft.  You could get 3/10 followed by 1/12 followed by 10/3 ect.  The 1st team doesn't get the advantage of drafting from the 1 spot every odd round.   Separate random draw for rookie picks with the 2nd-7th rounds reverse of the 1st.

2016 I had everyone roll dice and the highest roll got to pick their spot 1-12 and they stayed in that spot snake draft but the rookie draft 1st round would reverse of the startup order (with rounds 2-7 being opposite of the 1st).

So the highest dice roll wanted pick 12 as they got the 1.01 rookie pick.

Most startups the rookies are mixed in which is what I have done in high stakes leagues but all my ones I made we did not to that.

 
Drafts are a lot more fun than auctions so I somewhat prefer them for that reason, but I definitely like being able to actually get most of the players I like in an auction so sometimes i prefer that as well.

There is just something really fun about maneuvering around a startup draft with trades and trying to anticipate where guys are going to go, but if it was a big $$ league I would definitely want to do an auction so I could build my team with the guys I like.

 
In theory the year/quality of talent should be taken into account but in a general sense I would say I prefer as high as possible as it's usually easier to trade back then up.

That being said I've only drawn a high first round pick in two of my startups, usually always falling in middle to late round one. Those years I drew high picks were 1 and 3  I could not get anyone to trade up for nothing and the picks at 1 and 3 were not great, heck I had one team I'd have been better off just forfeiting the pick at 3.

My negative past history aside of having a top pick, I still prefer it.

 
I have created 3 dynasty leagues.  1997, 2010 and 2016.

Each time I did something different.

1997 was my first dynasty startup we drew picks every other round (reversing the even rounds) and had no trades.  Back then we were doing this live with pen and paper and doing a quick 2-3 hour draft.  That is all we knew back then I didn't even have the internet I did entire league on paper and drove people's lineups to their houses on Saturday nights. Separate random draw for rookie picks.

2010 I had the MFL draw the picks for every other round (reversing the even rounds) doing a slow draft with trades of course.  This way if you got pick 12 you didn't get 12/1 every round this is a much more fair way then having a person pigioned holed into 1 spot the entire draft.  You could get 3/10 followed by 1/12 followed by 10/3 ect.  The 1st team doesn't get the advantage of drafting from the 1 spot every odd round.   Separate random draw for rookie picks with the 2nd-7th rounds reverse of the 1st.

2016 I had everyone roll dice and the highest roll got to pick their spot 1-12 and they stayed in that spot snake draft but the rookie draft 1st round would reverse of the startup order (with rounds 2-7 being opposite of the 1st).

So the highest dice roll wanted pick 12 as they got the 1.01 rookie pick.

Most startups the rookies are mixed in which is what I have done in high stakes leagues but all my ones I made we did not to that.
Completely disagree with the bolded.  Repicking the draft order every other round is not fair.  It is completely luck driven and could screw or benefit someone greatly.  The snake draft is the fairest draft system as every team averages to the same pick.  Anything that switches off of that will benefit some teams and hurt others. 

I am also not sure why you think being "pigioned holed" into the #1 spot the whole draft is a bad thing.  This goes to personal preference.  Some like being on ends and some like being in the middle.  This is why the best snake draft option is to allow the draft order to be chosen similar to your 2016 option.  That is how all my snake draft leagues choose their draft spots. 

 
Do you guys prefer a particularly spot for a startup?  Each year my thoughts change for this question but sometimes people just prefer the 6 so they're not on the edges.  Sometimes they prefer the edges.  I've been playing fantasy for about 10 years now, dynasty for about 5, and I've never picked from the 12 spot.  I joined a new one and am slotted from 12 this time.  Had to happen eventually right?  Anyways this has me in my head a bit about how to handle it because my first thought is that I am the start of value picks and I am the the start of runs.  The value isn't there as often from my mocks I've done.  I'm likely to trade down as well but that depends on offers and the league itself. 

Anyways my 2 questions for this topic is do certain spots make you guys a bit concerned?  

What's your general strategy when it comes to wherever you're slotted?  
For dynasty I don’t like snake drafts at all.  If I had to have a snake draft I would want 1.01

yes, there are challenges to drafting that high, but there’s also value that falls to you every round. It’s your job to capitalize on those value picks & not get hung up on position or specific player. Rank your players & stick to your rankings. Things will usually work out. 

but see if your league will consider switching to an auction format. I feel like it’s essential for dynasty start-up to give every manager a shot at every player.

 
Completely disagree with the bolded.  Repicking the draft order every other round is not fair.  It is completely luck driven and could screw or benefit someone greatly.  The snake draft is the fairest draft system as every team averages to the same pick.  Anything that switches off of that will benefit some teams and hurt others. 

I am also not sure why you think being "pigioned holed" into the #1 spot the whole draft is a bad thing.  This goes to personal preference.  Some like being on ends and some like being in the middle.  This is why the best snake draft option is to allow the draft order to be chosen similar to your 2016 option.  That is how all my snake draft leagues choose their draft spots. 
Huh ?  You make no sense.  Ok then give the same guy the 1st pick of every odd round and the one guy who draws 12 gets last pick every odd round.

So you think it is luck driven and totally unfair for the site to draw everyone pick EVERY OTHER ROUND.  I didn't say you draw EVERY ROUND.

umm and yes it is called luck driven because it's a random draw which means FAIR DRAW for all.

Just because 99% of the sites do it the snake way doesn't mean that is the best way and it certainly is not the fairest way it's just the easiest way.

Carry on though with your way because ya I am clueless on running dynasty leagues been doing it only since 1997.

 
Huh ?  You make no sense.  Ok then give the same guy the 1st pick of every odd round and the one guy who draws 12 gets last pick every odd round.

So you think it is luck driven and totally unfair for the site to draw everyone pick EVERY OTHER ROUND.  I didn't say you draw EVERY ROUND.

umm and yes it is called luck driven because it's a random draw which means FAIR DRAW for all.

Just because 99% of the sites do it the snake way doesn't mean that is the best way and it certainly is not the fairest way it's just the easiest way.

Carry on though with your way because ya I am clueless on running dynasty leagues been doing it only since 1997.
I never said you were clueless.  And I never said that it is a problem to do it that way if everyone agrees.  Do what you want.  I just said it isn't the fairest way.  The draw itself is fair but within the overall draws (by doing more than one) it can statistically end up being unfair to individuals. 

I guess I should have said may not be fair.  There is the chance that everyone draws the same exact draft spot each time so everyone ends up with the same average draft pick per round (like in a typical snake draft).  But there is also a possibility that the draft picks don't rotate for everyone and someone ends up with a lesser average draft pick per round than others. 

 
3RR is my preferred snake method for dynasty startups, but I’ve only seen it used once. Every one of my others (12) has been standard snake. 
 

I make lots of trades during a startup, moving both forward and back. Because of that, being at either end of the snake is a serious disadvantage (in terms of trading). It’s so much easier to swing a deal with 6.05 + 7.08 than it is to do it with 6.12 +7.01, as an example. This problem is persistent in every round and you have to work doubly hard to maneuver the draft from either end.  

The advantage at the 1.01/2.12 is that you control the top and can trade down rather easily (but generally not for the true value of 1.01)

 
I really prefer using a 3rd round reversal over the straight snake draft.  Having an earlier pick is such an advantage in a snake.  Think about it, for every two rounds, you get the earlier pick in the first round and the later pick in the second round.  Since the value decreases every round, having the earlier pick in the more valuable round every time during the draft is a massive advantage.

 
I guess I can see that point however you do have control being at the turn as well.  It's a different kind of control.  If you are 2/11 or 3/10 you can track the middle picks but that can force you to take a player at a position based on how they have picked.  I think there are advantages to being in either spot and it is easily adaptable regardless of which spot you are in.  Being at the end you can kick off runs fairly easily if you can plan and anticipate the draft flow. 

No matter what being in one of those spots (top 3 or bottom 3) are definitely my preference.  I HATE being in the middle of a snake draft. 
I always find 11 better than 12.  If you need a QB and the guy at 12 already has one (this could be in any round), you can wait on that QB until the next round.  That is a huge advantage sometimes, and just gives you free automatic value.  Same can be said about other positions like TE, and then also to a way lesser extent, K/D.  Still works at other positions too if you're torn between a certain WR and RB, and the dude went WR WR, it's prob better to take that RB at 3.11 and hope your WR falls to you at 4.02.

 
I always find 11 better than 12.  If you need a QB and the guy at 12 already has one (this could be in any round), you can wait on that QB until the next round.  That is a huge advantage sometimes, and just gives you free automatic value.  Same can be said about other positions like TE, and then also to a way lesser extent, K/D.  Still works at other positions too if you're torn between a certain WR and RB, and the dude went WR WR, it's prob better to take that RB at 3.11 and hope your WR falls to you at 4.02.
I don’t think this is as cut and dried in a league with lots of trading during the startup draft. That guy at 12 can move either of his picks to a QB needy team that wants to jump ahead of you at 11/2

 
I don’t think this is as cut and dried in a league with lots of trading during the startup draft. That guy at 12 can move either of his picks to a QB needy team that wants to jump ahead of you at 11/2
Sure, yes I suppose so.  I guess I mainly play redraft so was talking about redraft even though you're right its prob different in start up. 

Even so though, I still think its advantageous.  Whoever trades into that new 12 spot you can still look at their current roster and SOMETIMES manipulate that in order to plan out your two picks on the turn.  Even more so in the case of needing to trade up from the 12 spot, I see no advantage of the 12 over the 11.

 
Sure, yes I suppose so.  I guess I mainly play redraft so was talking about redraft even though you're right its prob different in start up. 

Even so though, I still think its advantageous.  Whoever trades into that new 12 spot you can still look at their current roster and SOMETIMES manipulate that in order to plan out your two picks on the turn.  Even more so in the case of needing to trade up from the 12 spot, I see no advantage of the 12 over the 11.
you get to pick a player before the 11th spot.  You don't have to choose and hope that the player you don't take makes it past the next two picks.  Even though he already has a QB there is a chance (although slim) that he takes a 2nd QB to screw you. 

 
you get to pick a player before the 11th spot.  You don't have to choose and hope that the player you don't take makes it past the next two picks.  Even though he already has a QB there is a chance (although slim) that he takes a 2nd QB to screw you. 
If you're at the 12 spot you're also hoping a player makes it to you there that you want.  Either way, both guys get to pick ahead of the other guy.  I'd rather my 'pick ahead of the other guy' be higher up.  I'm not really seeing the advantage in the 12 if both guys get to steal a player from the other guy.  11 at least has some control over it and it's much easier to make a 'value' pick at 11/14.   If 12 needs a QB, he HAS to take him at those picks (or else wait 24 picks).  If 11 needs one, he can at least only have to wait 2 picks if he passes. 

 
If you're at the 12 spot you're also hoping a player makes it to you there that you want.  Either way, both guys get to pick ahead of the other guy.  I'd rather my 'pick ahead of the other guy' be higher up.  I'm not really seeing the advantage in the 12 if both guys get to steal a player from the other guy.  11 at least has some control over it and it's much easier to make a 'value' pick at 11/14.   If 12 needs a QB, he HAS to take him at those picks (or else wait 24 picks).  If 11 needs one, he can at least only have to wait 2 picks if he passes. 
I agree with all that.  But I don't mind having the back to back picks.  It allows me to not have to decide on a player and just go with both at times.  I really don't have much preference between 10/11/12 spots and usually prefer which ever one will better assure me of getting the top two players I want at the turn.  Some of it depends on who is drafting around me also. 

 
I almost exclusively prefer to be near the turns regardless of format. For a startup absolutely give me top 3 over bottom 3. I feel there is more ability to leverage a strategy when you're near the turn whereas the middle of the round is more like just picking BPA when it gets back to you. Unless you can swing some good trades and then that all largely fades away. 

I drew the 7 in an FFPC Superflex startup this week. Went Murray, Nuk, Henry, Juju and Aaron Jones so far. I traded up twice, for Henry and Juju. But Nuk went on schedule at 2.06 and Jones at 4.06. I don't care much for the 7 spot here but I like the way it's going. 

 

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