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​ 🐘 ​​ 🐴 ​2020 Presidential Debates thread - 2nd Debate October 15

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12 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

If you're worried about the economy, then vote for the person that will take Covid seriously and not ignore it.

Because right now that's the biggest threat to the economy.

Vote for the guy who said last night he wouldn’t rule out shutting the country down and destroying more of the economy. Brilliant reason to not vote for Biden. 

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57 minutes ago, Widbil83 said:

It was an incredible moment. Between that and Biden attempting to talk about business the guy doesn’t have a clue. Joe Biden isn’t equipped to run the Orange Julius in the Mall food court. 

Only one of these guys has consistently bankrupted businesses that he’s run.

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I’m in the medical field on the frontline.  If you think everything you hear about COVID is accurate because what the media says..........

If you saw the raw numbers of individuals that actually expired (still not a good thing) from COVID and JUST COVID, you’d be shocked.  That’s why politics are the devil and it’s a shame.  I gave my :2cents: and I’m out :thumbup:

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2 hours ago, AAABatteries said:

He said he wants to phase out oil and provide clean energy which also brings lot of jobs with it.  

yea, I remember Joe & Obama walking around the Solyndra plant telling us what a success story that was with taxpayer support of about 535 million.  535 million=poof, gone.

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18 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

So true

 

Heather Thompson Day

@HeatherTDay

I’m not gonna lie. It’s peak cringe to watch two white men argue about who has done more for the Black community & then only talk about who has let more of us out of prison.

If that's all she heard, that's her problem. Trump brought up multiple things besides prison reform.

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8 minutes ago, jamny said:

If that's all she heard, that's her problem. Trump brought up multiple things besides prison reform.

Yup. He's been better to African Americans than Lincoln...he's been a better Founding Father than George Washington....he's been a better general than Dwight Eisenhower and he's been a younger President than John F. Kennedy.  He's the total package. 

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9 hours ago, MAC_32 said:

I was pleasantly surprised about his candid answer about why his administration didn't get more done. Of course Republicans in congress obstructing everything was the problem. I didn't think he'd go there and am glad he did. 

Agreed.  

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Was there a telemundo twitter poll after this debate? Curious to see the official scorecard.

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10 hours ago, tonydead said:

NBC talking heads stuttering worse than Joe trying to spin this positive for him.  :lmao:

This is not acceptable.

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23 minutes ago, Tha Guru said:

I’m in the medical field on the frontline.  If you think everything you hear about COVID is accurate because what the media says..........

If you saw the raw numbers of individuals that actually expired (still not a good thing) from COVID and JUST COVID, you’d be shocked.  That’s why politics are the devil and it’s a shame.  I gave my :2cents: and I’m out :thumbup:

Thanks for doing what you do.  It's greatly appreciated.

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33 minutes ago, Tha Guru said:

I’m in the medical field on the frontline.  If you think everything you hear about COVID is accurate because what the media says..........

If you saw the raw numbers of individuals that actually expired (still not a good thing) from COVID and JUST COVID, you’d be shocked.  That’s why politics are the devil and it’s a shame.  I gave my :2cents: and I’m out :thumbup:

Sadly I think that's what many of us were afraid of but you get attacked for suggesting, thanks for providing this first hand and thanks for all you do. 

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18 minutes ago, Thunderlips said:

Yup. He's been better to African Americans than Lincoln...he's been a better Founding Father than George Washington....he's been a better general than Dwight Eisenhower and he's been a younger President than John F. Kennedy.  He's the total package. 

I guess you weren't paying attention either. He said none of that.

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46 minutes ago, Widbil83 said:

Vote for the guy who said last night he wouldn’t rule out shutting the country down and destroying more of the economy. Brilliant reason to not vote for Biden. 

Money is useless if nobody's around to spend it.

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20 minutes ago, Clayton Gray said:

This is not acceptable.

Serious question.  Why is what he said not acceptable?  I truly don't understand how anyone could take offense to what he said.

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44 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Only one of these guys has consistently bankrupted businesses that he’s run.

Lol Biden spent almost 50 years in Washington bankrupting this country. He never saw a ridiculous war, tax raise or spending bill he didn’t help push through. 

Everything wrong with this country in our lifetimes has the fingerprints of Joe Biden on it. 

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50 minutes ago, Widbil83 said:

Vote for the guy who said last night he wouldn’t rule out shutting the country down and destroying more of the economy. Brilliant reason to not vote for Biden. 

See, if Trump would have reacted swiftly and decisively months ago, we wouldn't be in the position we are.   6 months later and businesses around here are still at 25%, struggling, and staring at spikes of cases.   That's what is continually driving the economy in the toilet.  

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1 minute ago, Widbil83 said:

Lol Biden spent almost 50 years in Washington bankrupting this country. He never saw a ridiculous war, tax raise or spending bill he didn’t help push through. 

Everything wrong with this country in our lifetimes has the fingerprints of Joe Biden on it. 

Yup. Trump said as much last night..... "You're the reason why I ran".

 

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45 minutes ago, Tha Guru said:

I’m in the medical field on the frontline.  If you think everything you hear about COVID is accurate because what the media says..........

If you saw the raw numbers of individuals that actually expired (still not a good thing) from COVID and JUST COVID, you’d be shocked.  That’s why politics are the devil and it’s a shame.  I gave my :2cents: and I’m out :thumbup:

Not to speak for him, but I think @gianmarco can say the very same.

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1 minute ago, Sneegor said:

Serious question.  Why is what he said not acceptable?  I truly don't understand how anyone could take offense to what he said.

Serious question.  You really think mockingly referencing the stuttering of Joe Biden contributes to respectful conversation?

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35 minutes ago, jamny said:

If that's all she heard, that's her problem. Trump brought up multiple things besides prison reform.

Trump is his own worst enemy. While he does a decent job talking about pre-COVID rises in wages and increasing employment in the black community he doesn't draw a strong enough contrast with the Obama administration where wages declined in real dollars and whose response to the foreclosure crisis amounted to massive theft of wealth from the black community.

If he wasn't such an idiot and tried to claim he was the best president ever for the black community, he could make a plausible argument that he's better than Biden. But it all gets drowned out by the nonsense he spews.

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1 minute ago, Murph said:

Trump is his own worst enemy. While he does a decent job talking about pre-COVID rises in wages and increasing employment in the black community he doesn't draw a strong enough contrast with the Obama administration where wages declined in real dollars and whose response to the foreclosure crisis amounted to massive theft of wealth from the black community.

If he wasn't such an idiot and tried to claim he was the best president ever for the black community, he could make a plausible argument that he's better than Biden. But it all gets drowned out by the nonsense he spews.

Better than maybe Lincoln doesn't resonate well with people.  It's insulting.  

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52 minutes ago, Tha Guru said:

I’m in the medical field on the frontline.  If you think everything you hear about COVID is accurate because what the media says..........

If you saw the raw numbers of individuals that actually expired (still not a good thing) from COVID and JUST COVID, you’d be shocked.  That’s why politics are the devil and it’s a shame.  I gave my :2cents: and I’m out :thumbup:

Ok, there are 216k deaths attributed to covid. There are 299k excess deaths. So if not covid, then what is responsible for these hundreds of thousands of EXCESS deaths?

Edited by Pitchfork
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4 minutes ago, Murph said:

Trump is his own worst enemy. While he does a decent job talking about pre-COVID rises in wages and increasing employment in the black community he doesn't draw a strong enough contrast with the Obama administration where wages declined in real dollars and whose response to the foreclosure crisis amounted to massive theft of wealth from the black community.

If he wasn't such an idiot and tried to claim he was the best president ever for the black community, he could make a plausible argument that he's better than Biden. But it all gets drowned out by the nonsense he spews.

Can't argue with that.

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2 minutes ago, Mene said:

Serious question.  You really think mockingly referencing the stuttering of Joe Biden contributes to respectful conversation?

I wouldn't take offense to that if I was a Biden supporter.  Similarly I don't take offense when someone calls Trump Orange man bad.  :shrug:I have seen Trump called far worse on here.  He is called a racist all the time yet I don't see folks getting called out for that.  It doesn't make any sense.

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3 minutes ago, Sneegor said:

I wouldn't take offense to that if I was a Biden supporter.  Similarly I don't take offense when someone calls Trump Orange man bad.  :shrug:I have seen Trump called far worse on here.  He is called a racist all the time yet I don't see folks getting called out for that.  It doesn't make any sense.

In fairness, I do think the word racist is thrown about too freely, even if I think you exaggerate its current frequency here on the forums. But also, the stutter wasn't something Joe Biden added to his repertoire for aesthetic effect.

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6 minutes ago, Sneegor said:

I wouldn't take offense to that if I was a Biden supporter.  Similarly I don't take offense when someone calls Trump Orange man bad.  :shrug:I have seen Trump called far worse on here.  He is called a racist all the time yet I don't see folks getting called out for that.  It doesn't make any sense.

:goodposting:

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7 minutes ago, Sneegor said:

I wouldn't take offense to that if I was a Biden supporter.  Similarly I don't take offense when someone calls Trump Orange man bad.  :shrug:I have seen Trump called far worse on here.  He is called a racist all the time yet I don't see folks getting called out for that.  It doesn't make any sense.

I can only speak for myself, but I view it as mocking something beyond Biden's control.  He didn't choose to be born with a stutter, and I think every one of us know it's just flat wrong to mock or ridicule someone for a disability, or something beyond their control.

Calling trump a racist is accusing him of doing something by choice.  It's not mocking or making fun of him for something he was born with, or cannot help or control.  It also is probably not helpful if the goal is respectful conversation, but I think it's in a different ballpark.

The orange thing, again, not really helping the conversation, but is also another example of something trump does by choice.  He doesn't have to apply so much orange make up, he choses to.  Not sure making fun of it helps, but it isn't a disability he was born with.  

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46 minutes ago, Thunderlips said:

Yup. He's been better to African Americans than Lincoln...he's been a better Founding Father than George Washington....he's been a better general than Dwight Eisenhower and he's been a younger President than John F. Kennedy.  He's the total package. 

It's unfortunate there is no more room on Mount Rushmore. Maybe replace Washington with Trump?

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Just now, Leroy Hoard said:

It's unfortunate there is no more room on Mount Rushmore. Maybe replace Washington with Trump?

I am guessing if he had a choice he would just replace the 4 faces with just him.  

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1 hour ago, gianmarco said:

So true

 

Heather Thompson Day

@HeatherTDay

I’m not gonna lie. It’s peak cringe to watch two white men argue about who has done more for the Black community & then only talk about who has let more of us out of prison.

I didn't watch the debate, but this sounds like a godawful take.  Criminal justice reform should be a big deal in the wake of the George Floyd murder.  I'm glad that it's getting some attention.

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8 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I didn't watch the debate, but this sounds like a godawful take.  Criminal justice reform should be a big deal in the wake of the George Floyd murder.  I'm glad that it's getting some attention.

I think you missed the point.  Of course criminal justice reform should be a big deal.  The point of her tweet was that it takes a little more than discussing how many black people have been let out of prison.

Here's the relevant transcript in response to Black Lives Matter

Kristen Welker: (07:01)
Mr. President you’ve described the Black Lives Matter movement as a symbol of hate. You’ve shared a video of a man chanting white power to millions of your supporters. You’ve said that black professional athletes exercising their First Amendment rights should be fired. What do you say to Americans who say that kind of language from a president is contributing to a climate of hate and racial strife?

Donald Trump: (07:24)
Well, you have to understand the first time I ever heard of Black Lives Matter, they were chanting, “Pigs in a blanket,” talking about police, pigs, pigs, talking about our police. “Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon.” I said, “That’s a horrible thing.” And they were marching down the street. And that was my first glimpse of Black Lives Matter, I thought it was a terrible thing. As far as my relationships with all people, I think I have great relationships with all people. I am the least racist person in this room.

Kristen Welker: (07:55)
What do you say to Americans who are concerned by that rhetoric [crosstalk 00:00:07:58]?

Donald Trump: (07:58)
I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know what to say. I got criminal justice reform done and prison reform and Opportunity Zones-

Donald Trump: (08:03)
… got criminal justice reform done, and prison reform, and Opportunity Zones, I took care of Black colleges and universities, I don’t know what to say, they can say anything, I mean, they can say anything. It’s a very… Makes me sad, because I am the least racist person, I can’t even see the audience because it’s so dark, but I don’t care who’s in the audience, I’m the least racist person in this room.

Kristen Welker: (08:26)
Okay. Vice President Biden, let me ask you very quickly and then I have a follow-up question for you.

Joe Biden: (08:30)
Abraham Lincoln here is one of the most racist presidents we’ve had in modern history, he pours fuel on every single racist fire, every single one. Started off his campaign coming down the escalator saying he’s getting rid of those Mexican rapists, he’s ban Muslims because they’re Muslims, he has moved around and made everything worse across the board. He says to… About the Proud Boys, last time we were on stage here he said, “I tell them to stand down and stand ready.” Come on, this guy has a dog whistle about as big as a foghorn.

Kristen Welker: (09:04)
President Trump, I’m going to give you 10 seconds to respond and then I have a follow-up question.

Donald Trump: (09:07)
No, he made a reference to Abraham Lincoln, where did that come in? I mean-

Joe Biden: (09:10)
You said you’re Abraham Lincoln.

Donald Trump: (09:12)
… where did that….. No.

Joe Biden: (09:13)
You said-

Donald Trump: (09:14)
I said, “Not since Abraham Lincoln has anybody done what I’ve done for the Black community.”

Joe Biden: (09:19)
And I’m saying-

Donald Trump: (09:20)
I didn’t say, “I’m Abraham Lincoln,” I said, “Not since Abraham Lincoln has anybody done what I’ve done for the Black community.” Now, you have done nothing other than the Crime Bill, which put-

Joe Biden: (09:32)
Oh, God.

Donald Trump: (09:33)
Tens of thousands of Black men, mostly, in jail.

Joe Biden: (09:39)
Not true.

Kristen Welker: (09:39)
All right, let me ask Vice President Biden a question.

Donald Trump: (09:41)
And you know what? They remember it because if you look at what’s happening with the voting right now, they remember that you treated them very, very badly, just take a look at what’s happening out there.

Kristen Welker: (09:49)
Let me ask Vice President Biden about… Vice President Biden, let me give you a chance to respond within this context, crime bills that you supported in the ’80s and ’90s contributed to the incarceration of tens of thousands of young Black men who had small amounts of drugs in their possession, they are sons, they are brothers, they are fathers, they are uncles, whose families are still to this day, some of them suffering the consequences. So, speak to those families, why should they vote for you?

Joe Biden: (10:11)
One of the things is that in the ’80s we passed 100 percent, all 100 senators voted for a bill on drugs and how to deal with drugs, it was a mistake. I’ve been trying to change since then particularly the portion on cocaine. That’s why I’ve been arguing that in fact we should not send anyone to jail for a pure drug offense, they should be going into treatment across the board, that’s what we should be spending money. And that’s why I set up drug courts which were never funded by our Republican friends. They should not be going to jail for a drug or an alcohol problem, they should be going into treatment. That’s what we’ve been trying to do, that’s what I’m going to get done because I think the American people have now seen that in fact it was a mistake to pass those laws relating to drugs, but they were not in the Crime Bill.

Kristen Welker: (11:04)
[crosstalk 00:11:04].

Donald Trump: (11:04)
But, why didn’t he get it done? See, it’s all talk, no action with these politicians, why didn’t he get it? “That’s what I’m going to do when I become president.” You were vice president along with Obama as your president, your leader, for eight years, why didn’t you get it done? You had eight years to get it done, now you’re saying you’re going to get it done because you’re all talking and no action, Joe.

Kristen Welker: (11:25)
Your response.

Joe Biden: (11:25)
We got a lot of it done. We released 38,000-

Donald Trump: (11:27)
You didn’t get anything done.

Joe Biden: (11:28)
We got 38,000 prisoners [ crosstalk 00:11:30]-

Donald Trump: (11:30)
You got nothing done.

Joe Biden: (11:31)
38,000 prisoners were released from federal prison, we have… There were over a thousand people who were given clemency. [inaudible 00:03:38]. In fact, were the ones that put in the legislation saying we could look at pattern and practice of police departments and what they were doing, how they’re conducting themselves. I could go on, but we began the process, we lost an election, that’s why I’m running to win back that election and change his terrible policy.

Donald Trump: (11:57)
I just have-

Kristen Welker: (11:57)
Your response and then we’re going to move on to climate change.

Donald Trump: (11:58)
… one question, why didn’t you do it in the eight years, a short time ago? Why didn’t you do it? You just said, “I’m going to do that, I’m going to do this.” You put tens of thousands of mostly Black young men in prison, now you’re saying you’re going to get… You’re going to undo that, why didn’t you get it done? You had eight years with Obama. You know why, Joe? Because you’re all talk and no action.

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52 minutes ago, Pitchfork said:

Ok, there are 216k deaths attributed to covid. There are 299k excess deaths. So if not covid, then what is responsible for these hundreds of thousands of EXCESS deaths?

Wow.  I've never seen that stat.  I guess that debunks the "they didn't die of Covid, they died of asthma" theorists?

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Many weeks ago, there were predictions that Trump would dominate Biden in the debates because Biden wouldn't be able to get out enough coherent sentences. I was also worried about possible cognitive impairment in Biden. It didn't happen, as Biden easily won the first debate (or Trump lost it)  and Biden basically came out even in the last debate. And the 2nd debate was cancelled by Trump because he was cavalier about COVID-19 and was hospitalized.

I don't see how anyone can't see this as a big win for Biden, based on predictions made months ago. 

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1 minute ago, Chaz McNulty said:

Wow.  I've never seen that stat.  I guess that debunks the "they didn't die of Covid, they died of asthma" theorists?

you would think that, but unfortunately no

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4 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

I think you missed the point.  Of course criminal justice reform should be a big deal.  The point of her tweet was that it takes a little more than discussing how many black people have been let out of prison.

Here's the relevant transcript in response to Black Lives Matter

 

  Hide contents

 

Kristen Welker: (07:01)
Mr. President you’ve described the Black Lives Matter movement as a symbol of hate. You’ve shared a video of a man chanting white power to millions of your supporters. You’ve said that black professional athletes exercising their First Amendment rights should be fired. What do you say to Americans who say that kind of language from a president is contributing to a climate of hate and racial strife?

Donald Trump: (07:24)
Well, you have to understand the first time I ever heard of Black Lives Matter, they were chanting, “Pigs in a blanket,” talking about police, pigs, pigs, talking about our police. “Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon.” I said, “That’s a horrible thing.” And they were marching down the street. And that was my first glimpse of Black Lives Matter, I thought it was a terrible thing. As far as my relationships with all people, I think I have great relationships with all people. I am the least racist person in this room.

Kristen Welker: (07:55)
What do you say to Americans who are concerned by that rhetoric [crosstalk 00:00:07:58]?

Donald Trump: (07:58)
I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know what to say. I got criminal justice reform done and prison reform and Opportunity Zones-

Donald Trump: (08:03)
… got criminal justice reform done, and prison reform, and Opportunity Zones, I took care of Black colleges and universities, I don’t know what to say, they can say anything, I mean, they can say anything. It’s a very… Makes me sad, because I am the least racist person, I can’t even see the audience because it’s so dark, but I don’t care who’s in the audience, I’m the least racist person in this room.

Kristen Welker: (08:26)
Okay. Vice President Biden, let me ask you very quickly and then I have a follow-up question for you.

Joe Biden: (08:30)
Abraham Lincoln here is one of the most racist presidents we’ve had in modern history, he pours fuel on every single racist fire, every single one. Started off his campaign coming down the escalator saying he’s getting rid of those Mexican rapists, he’s ban Muslims because they’re Muslims, he has moved around and made everything worse across the board. He says to… About the Proud Boys, last time we were on stage here he said, “I tell them to stand down and stand ready.” Come on, this guy has a dog whistle about as big as a foghorn.

Kristen Welker: (09:04)
President Trump, I’m going to give you 10 seconds to respond and then I have a follow-up question.

Donald Trump: (09:07)
No, he made a reference to Abraham Lincoln, where did that come in? I mean-

Joe Biden: (09:10)
You said you’re Abraham Lincoln.

Donald Trump: (09:12)
… where did that….. No.

Joe Biden: (09:13)
You said-

Donald Trump: (09:14)
I said, “Not since Abraham Lincoln has anybody done what I’ve done for the Black community.”

Joe Biden: (09:19)
And I’m saying-

Donald Trump: (09:20)
I didn’t say, “I’m Abraham Lincoln,” I said, “Not since Abraham Lincoln has anybody done what I’ve done for the Black community.” Now, you have done nothing other than the Crime Bill, which put-

Joe Biden: (09:32)
Oh, God.

Donald Trump: (09:33)
Tens of thousands of Black men, mostly, in jail.

Joe Biden: (09:39)
Not true.

Kristen Welker: (09:39)
All right, let me ask Vice President Biden a question.

Donald Trump: (09:41)
And you know what? They remember it because if you look at what’s happening with the voting right now, they remember that you treated them very, very badly, just take a look at what’s happening out there.

Kristen Welker: (09:49)
Let me ask Vice President Biden about… Vice President Biden, let me give you a chance to respond within this context, crime bills that you supported in the ’80s and ’90s contributed to the incarceration of tens of thousands of young Black men who had small amounts of drugs in their possession, they are sons, they are brothers, they are fathers, they are uncles, whose families are still to this day, some of them suffering the consequences. So, speak to those families, why should they vote for you?

Joe Biden: (10:11)
One of the things is that in the ’80s we passed 100 percent, all 100 senators voted for a bill on drugs and how to deal with drugs, it was a mistake. I’ve been trying to change since then particularly the portion on cocaine. That’s why I’ve been arguing that in fact we should not send anyone to jail for a pure drug offense, they should be going into treatment across the board, that’s what we should be spending money. And that’s why I set up drug courts which were never funded by our Republican friends. They should not be going to jail for a drug or an alcohol problem, they should be going into treatment. That’s what we’ve been trying to do, that’s what I’m going to get done because I think the American people have now seen that in fact it was a mistake to pass those laws relating to drugs, but they were not in the Crime Bill.

Kristen Welker: (11:04)
[crosstalk 00:11:04].

Donald Trump: (11:04)
But, why didn’t he get it done? See, it’s all talk, no action with these politicians, why didn’t he get it? “That’s what I’m going to do when I become president.” You were vice president along with Obama as your president, your leader, for eight years, why didn’t you get it done? You had eight years to get it done, now you’re saying you’re going to get it done because you’re all talking and no action, Joe.

Kristen Welker: (11:25)
Your response.

Joe Biden: (11:25)
We got a lot of it done. We released 38,000-

Donald Trump: (11:27)
You didn’t get anything done.

Joe Biden: (11:28)
We got 38,000 prisoners [ crosstalk 00:11:30]-

Donald Trump: (11:30)
You got nothing done.

Joe Biden: (11:31)
38,000 prisoners were released from federal prison, we have… There were over a thousand people who were given clemency. [inaudible 00:03:38]. In fact, were the ones that put in the legislation saying we could look at pattern and practice of police departments and what they were doing, how they’re conducting themselves. I could go on, but we began the process, we lost an election, that’s why I’m running to win back that election and change his terrible policy.

Donald Trump: (11:57)
I just have-

Kristen Welker: (11:57)
Your response and then we’re going to move on to climate change.

Donald Trump: (11:58)
… one question, why didn’t you do it in the eight years, a short time ago? Why didn’t you do it? You just said, “I’m going to do that, I’m going to do this.” You put tens of thousands of mostly Black young men in prison, now you’re saying you’re going to get… You’re going to undo that, why didn’t you get it done? You had eight years with Obama. You know why, Joe? Because you’re all talk and no action.

This just makes the take worse.  I voted for Biden, but it is absolutely accurate to note that his record on crime in general and the war on drugs specifically has been awful.  I'm glad he acknowledges that he was mistaken on this one.

I mean, I understand that ending the war on drugs and dialing back the militarization of police won't have as much effect on the day to day life of minorities compared to other, more effective measures like adding more politics to our sporting events, but you've got to start somewhere. 

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"How dare people talk about mass incarceration" has got to be something approaching Peak Twitter.  There is something about that site that causes peoples' brains to misfire.

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55 minutes ago, Sneegor said:
1 hour ago, Mene said:

Serious question.  You really think mockingly referencing the stuttering of Joe Biden contributes to respectful conversation?

I wouldn't take offense to that if I was a Biden supporter.  Similarly I don't take offense when someone calls Trump Orange man bad.  :shrug:I have seen Trump called far worse on here.  He is called a racist all the time yet I don't see folks getting called out for that.  It doesn't make any sense.

It's the difference between mocking personal choices and mocking a brain disorder.

I realize that many people believe that all mocking is equal and that we should all be free to make fun of someone's disability just as easily as we can make fun of someone's t-shirt design......but that sort of "equality" is frowned upon in most places.

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Things we need to do to dismantle systematic racism:

  • More politics in sports
  • HR-led struggle sessions, preferably segregated by race
  • Publicly documenting which celebrity voted for who

Things that are actually bad:

  • White people taking criminal justice reform seriously

 

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11 minutes ago, Chaz McNulty said:

Wow.  I've never seen that stat.  I guess that debunks the "they didn't die of Covid, they died of asthma" theorists?

Until you look at some of the limitations of the study:

"Third, different methods or models for estimating the expected numbers of deaths might lead to different results. Estimates of the number or percentage of deaths above average levels by race/ethnicity and age reported here might not sum to the total numbers of excess deaths reported elsewhere, which might have been estimated using different methodologies. Fourth, using the average numbers of deaths from past years might underestimate the total expected numbers because of population growth or aging, or because of increasing trends in certain causes such as drug overdose mortality. Finally, estimates of excess deaths attributed to COVID-19 might underestimate the actual number directly attributable to COVID-19, because deaths from other causes might represent misclassified COVID-19–related deaths or deaths indirectly caused by the pandemic. Specifically, deaths from circulatory diseases, Alzheimer disease and dementia, and respiratory diseases have increased in 2020 relative to past years (7), and it is unclear to what extent these represent misclassified COVID-19 deaths or deaths indirectly related to the pandemic (e.g., because of disruptions in health care access or utilization)."  

 

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13 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

"How dare people talk about mass incarceration" has got to be something approaching Peak Twitter.  There is something about that site that causes peoples' brains to misfire.

you interpreted that tweet quite differently than me.

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11 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Things we need to do to dismantle systematic racism:

  • More politics in sports
  • HR-led struggle sessions, preferably segregated by race
  • Publicly documenting which celebrity voted for who

Things that are actually bad:

  • White people taking criminal justice reform seriously

 

Not sure what's with you and the snark this morning and multiple posts trying to really zing some in, but again, I don't think you're getting the point she was trying to make.  Of course they need to take criminal justice reform seriously.  I've personally argued as much in here plenty of times.  But when that's essentially the ONLY thing you talk about when discussing what you've done for the black community, it just shows continued tone deafness. 

Edited by gianmarco
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9 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

Until you look at some of the limitations of the study:

"Third, different methods or models for estimating the expected numbers of deaths might lead to different results. Estimates of the number or percentage of deaths above average levels by race/ethnicity and age reported here might not sum to the total numbers of excess deaths reported elsewhere, which might have been estimated using different methodologies. Fourth, using the average numbers of deaths from past years might underestimate the total expected numbers because of population growth or aging, or because of increasing trends in certain causes such as drug overdose mortality. Finally, estimates of excess deaths attributed to COVID-19 might underestimate the actual number directly attributable to COVID-19, because deaths from other causes might represent misclassified COVID-19–related deaths or deaths indirectly caused by the pandemic. Specifically, deaths from circulatory diseases, Alzheimer disease and dementia, and respiratory diseases have increased in 2020 relative to past years (7), and it is unclear to what extent these represent misclassified COVID-19 deaths or deaths indirectly related to the pandemic (e.g., because of disruptions in health care access or utilization)."  

 

Those limitations, given the context of the study, are more of a "disclaimer" than reasons to doubt the results.  In other words, no study is perfect and they can't control for every variable and this is based on models.  But, despite those limitations, those results are still valid to give the picture of what Covid has done this year. 

Think of those limitations as similar to the line ""Past performance is no guarantee of future results". 

The very last limitation listed is interesting because it doesn't really matter if they are true Covid deaths or deaths by other causes due to lack of resources since those lack of resources are due to Covid.  It still results in excess deaths. 

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15 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

Not sure what's with you and the snark this morning and multiple posts trying to really zing some in, but again, I don't think you're getting the point she was trying to make.  Of course they need to take criminal justice reform seriously.  I've personally argued as much in here plenty of times.  But when that's essentially the ONLY thing you talk about when discussing what you've done for the black community, it just shows continued tone deafness. 

I think snark is the correct response when a person finds it "peak cringe" to talk about criminal justice reform after we went through a summer of riots in response to a black person being murdered by police officers.  That's the right response for a deeply unserious take.

Edit: In the transcript you provided, the jumping-off point for this issue was Black Lives Matter, which was literally launched as a movement about CJ reform (broadly speaking).  It is not the slightest bit tone deaf to talk about that issue when BLM comes up.  Tone deafness is getting sidetracked over stupid stuff like who kneels for the national anthem and who stays in the locker room instead.  Or getting sidetracked over Antifa or some other item on the periphery.  

Edited by IvanKaramazov
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1 minute ago, IvanKaramazov said:

I think snark is the correct response when a person finds it "peak cringe" to talk about criminal justice reform after we went through a summer of riots in response to a black person being murdered by police officers.  That's the right response for a deeply unserious take.

I don't think the message is wrong or unserious, but the wording could use work.  The message is probably better expressed as "The black community has real needs, one of which is actual criminal justice reform, which neither of you (Trump/Biden) has done anything about yet you both like to yap about it."

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1 minute ago, Goodell's Alias said:

I don't think the message is wrong or unserious, but the wording could use work.  The message is probably better expressed as "The black community has real needs, one of which is actual criminal justice reform, which neither of you (Trump/Biden) has done anything about yet you both like to yap about it."

At least for Biden, recognizing that he has been wrong on this issue historically and pledging to reverse course is a really good first step.  I'm affirmatively pleased with his trajectory on this issue.  

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32 minutes ago, gianmarco said:

Those limitations, given the context of the study, are more of a "disclaimer" than reasons to doubt the results.  In other words, no study is perfect and they can't control for every variable and this is based on models.  But, despite those limitations, those results are still valid to give the picture of what Covid has done this year. 

Think of those limitations as similar to the line ""Past performance is no guarantee of future results". 

The very last limitation listed is interesting because it doesn't really matter if they are true Covid deaths or deaths by other causes due to lack of resources since those lack of resources are due to Covid.  It still results in excess deaths. 

That's not what it means.  It means there are limitations to the base assumptions which could yield different results because the assumptions made were based on models that may have used different methodologies prior to COVID.

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12 minutes ago, Snotbubbles said:

That's not what it means.  It means there are limitations to the base assumptions which could yield different results because the assumptions made were based on models that may have used different methodologies prior to COVID.

Ok.

So based on your interpretation of those limitations, what is your take on the results of the study?

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2 hours ago, Thunderlips said:

Better than maybe Lincoln doesn't resonate well with people.  It's insulting.  

And claiming he's the least racist person in the room?  Even dragging out that point by dramatically looking into the crowd?  Given his frequent dog whistles and unwillingness to condemn white supremacy...very insulting.  

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