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You get an A! You get an A! Everybody gets an A! (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter parasaurolophus
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Max Power
Footballguy
We're losing this battle. My daughter has been virtual learning since march now. Some of her classmates have clearly been left behind. Her teacher struggles to teach multiplication when a quarter of the class hasn't figured out basic addition and subtraction.
End result is that learning grinds to a standstill for everyone.
beef
Footballguy
Not everyone, but this definitely seems to be increasing the education gap in our country. And that really worries me.
My kids (elementary age) are in a hybrid school format. Not sure how much longer since cases are rising fast and some schools have had to send more kids home. We're extremely fortunate since I have a very flexible work schedule and can home school them on days off or everyday if need be. We're excelling through this and I realize my family is in the far minority here. It is a huge advantage and privilege for families like mine that don't, or can't, pay tutors, private teachers or send their kids to private schools.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
So based on Trump logic you hate teachers and learning.
*In case it’s not obvious this is in reference to defund the police. I’m in favor or police and education reform.
Max Power
Footballguy
I think you are 100% correct here. The kids who have parents that spent time or follow up on their child's education will flourish. Education is an afterthought in some households right now.
I would not be surprised to see a study in a couple years showing how children from lower income households were more adversely affected by the lockdowns.
Keeping kids grouped by age instead of ability will hurt our education system imo.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
And this story is ridiculous - one of the reasons we don’t excel like we once did.
Quint
Footballguy
question: in CA, are there situations where kids are not automatically matriculated?
i have two family members who are teachers - 6th Grade and 7th-8th Grade - and neither of them have had a student with a failing grade not matriculate. it may take going to Summer School to make up for some lost work, but nobody fails/gets held back. at least in the Central Valley of CA.
i have two family members who are teachers - 6th Grade and 7th-8th Grade - and neither of them have had a student with a failing grade not matriculate. it may take going to Summer School to make up for some lost work, but nobody fails/gets held back. at least in the Central Valley of CA.
Great point.
Schools as we've known them have always been more about socializing children more than educating them, IMO. Which is part of the reason you don't see more of that. But I remember getting pulled out of class in elementary school to do math with older kids. And then later in middle school getting invites to Chicago for some math program.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
The article isn’t actually crazy or very forward thinking. The idea of mastery learning is quite old and not at all revolutionary. Think of it like this. If a kid is a slow learner and spends 3 weeks struggling with long division and fails 3 quizzes, misses some assignments because they didn’t get it but they keep trying and end up getting a C+ on the test of long division. Should their math grade for that period be a C+ representing their final destination or should it be more like an F or D- because they struggled on the path to that destination?
The school I last worked at went to a similar system but it’s actually more rigorous and challenging than the old system. All the grades come down to mastery of material so no more skating by from participation points and doing homework. Kids had to actually do well on tests to pass.
The school I last worked at went to a similar system but it’s actually more rigorous and challenging than the old system. All the grades come down to mastery of material so no more skating by from participation points and doing homework. Kids had to actually do well on tests to pass.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
This is a good question and more interesting than this one school district.Ilov80s said:
I'm actually very strongly of the opinion that "struggled on the path to that destination" is at least as important and probably a lot more important than "representing their final destination." I expect that I would be out-voted if this were put up for a vote, and that's fine. I tend to look at education -- especially higher ed but also K-12 to a much lesser extent -- as mainly being a method by which bright people credibly signal their brightness. If that's the case, then grades need to reflect not just having learned the material by end of an arbitrary time period, but also the ease with which it was learned. Somebody who "gets it" immediately and proceeds to ace all their midterms and the final is probably brighter than someone who only gets it at the very end after lots of heavy lifting and after having struggled from midterm to midterm. The signal we send should reflect that.
(Disclaimer: I understand that you're probably thinking about a sixth-grader and I'm probably thinking about a college sophomore and it makes sense that we might view those respective educational systems very differently. Just commenting on the bolded part admittedly a little out of context because I've encountered this argument before).
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
This doesnt seem realistic to me. I find it difficult to believe you have a lot of kids that struggle and fail quizzes and then miraculously show amazing improvement on the tests and that it was the quiz grades holding them back. Seems all i have hear is complaints about tests, not the other way around.Ilov80s said:
After looking for some more articles and reading this doesnt seem to be what is holding back kids.
The policy changes are even worse than i thought too.
Rather than getting one chance to get a good grade, students will be given additional chances to revise their work and show improvement.
And also on the cheating front...
Under the new grading policy, when a student is caught cheating, schools must give the student a chance to reflect on what he or she did, repair trust and receive counseling or other help.
It doesnt look like these policies were put in place because mastery of material was acceptable, but the process just beat kids up.
It looks like they just tried to take away as many poor marks as possible so they could then focus on fewer tests, allow kids to make corrections, roll their eyes at cheating (which would of course be more magnified if kids got caught cheating on a mastery of material course end type of test), and yay look at the improvement we have made.
GROOT
Footballguy
My organic chemistry teacher in college allowed your final exam grade to be your grade in the course. The final exam was no cakewalk though. Although i'm not sure this translates well in grade school. This possibly could make kids dumber because they will always put off learning and think they can "catch up".
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I had a professor in college do something similar. If your final grade was better than the homework assignment grade, you got the score from the final exam. If you did better in the homework than you did the final, the homework would pull up your overall grade. Definitely had some classmates who didn't do the homework at all thinking they'd ace the final, but the lack of practice problems you get doing homework really hurt them. There was one truly brilliant kid who didn't do the homework and still rocked the final, but most who didn't do the homework regretted it at the end.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah college vs little kids learning to read are very different things obviously. Also, even under the mastery system, the cream rises. Kids who struggle and learn slower or need more attempts to "master" something usually perform worse in their summative assessment than those who picked up the skills quickly. The mastery style report cards have been around for a while in elementary schools. Instead of getting a grade like a B in math kids will have a list of benchmarks and they will be rated "not met, approaching target or target met". That approach really makes a lot more sense. What is a B in math? What does that mean? Where as a rating of whether the kid can add single digit numbers, single with double digit, 2 double digit numbers, three numbers, etc. gives a lot more detailed info on where the kid is at and what the kid needs to improve on still.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I don't think most elementary kids really think that way. There is no final exam. Most young kids try their best and if they aren't trying, it is usually a sign of some kind of medical or social-emotional issue.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Amazing performance? Nope, probably not. Most struggling learners are working towards Ds and Cs- just trying to get the basic skills down. If they do end up improving at an amazing level, it usually means something was happening medically or socially-emotionally that was stopping them from trying. I've seen kids who had depression, went through a rough patch with a sick parent or trouble fitting in, etc. that were resolved and quick huge strides were made in their academic performance.
Again, none of that is new. It's called mastery learning. It is very common for schools to allow students to retake tests, revise papers, redo projects, etc. The idea is we want kids to learn the material and skills. My last HS had a policy that students were allowed to retake any summative assessment (except final exams) . This was contingent on the student having no missing work and completing a remediation assignment to demonstrate they have indeed made efforts to better learn the material. Summative tests/projects/papers counted for 80% of the grade in class. It was actually much more rigorous than the more traditional model where many kids grades are inflated by participation points and homework that is just graded on effort, not accuracy. Also, the kids who blow off school don't take the time to do the remediation and improve their test grades. It's only rewarding kids who are working hard.
As for the cheating, that is a bit more controversial but the idea is we don't want to just punish the kids but teach them why cheating is bad. Also, figure out why they are cheating and see if we can give them the skills so they don't need to. Also, cheating is often a lazy way to get out of the work. This doesn't let them off the hook. They are still expected to go back and do the assignment correctly.
All of this is done to hold kids responsible for their own learning, hold them accountable, give them more opportunities to learn and hopefully develop young adults who take responsibility for their performance, fix their mistakes and realize they have to actually perform- not just show up and try to get the grades. Some will say it's giving the kids too many chances and the adult world won't be so forgiving but that is the point. These aren't adults, these are children. We shouldn't treat them the same. We need to build the skills and knowledge in a safer environment so kids don't have to learn the hard way in the adult world.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
Also, in the most basic sense: if you had a kid and he was struggling to read 3 and 4 letter words, would you say: "ok we need to keep working on this to make sure we get it down" or would you say, "sorry, time is up for the 3 and 4 letter words, you failed at it. Now time for you to learn 5 and 6 letter words." That kind of approach is how kids end being incredibly far behind in certain areas and give up on school.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
Here's the policy: GRADES/EVALUATION OF STUDENT ACHIEVEMENT (warning mobile phone users, PDF)
Here's a much more in depth article: San Diego Unified changes grading practices to be equitable, less punitive
My simplified explanation: Here is a link to the twenty-eight 8th grade Math Standards in WV (PDF). Let's say during one grading period in 8th-grade math four standards are covered. Rather than a letter grade of A, B, C, D, or F, students are assigned a number between 1-4 representing their mastery of the standards from emerging (1), to progressing (2), to partial mastery (3), and finally mastery (4).
Let's say Jimmy missed school for some excused reason in the weeks that his teacher covered rational and irrational numbers. At the end of the grading period, he receives a grade of "in progress" or "incomplete," the point equivalent of 0. As the next grading period progresses and Jimmy makes up his work, his understanding of rational/irrational numbers develops. This teacher will can go back and change his score in order to fit the mastery level that Jimmy demonstrates. It doesn't necessarily mean Jimmy repeated a summative assessment like a quiz or a test, rather, his teacher formatively assessed Jimmy's progress in class and realized that he did understand rational/irrational numbers.
Some examples of standards based report cards: http://www.isbestandardsbasedreporting.com/report-card-examples.html
Here's a much more in depth article: San Diego Unified changes grading practices to be equitable, less punitive
My simplified explanation: Here is a link to the twenty-eight 8th grade Math Standards in WV (PDF). Let's say during one grading period in 8th-grade math four standards are covered. Rather than a letter grade of A, B, C, D, or F, students are assigned a number between 1-4 representing their mastery of the standards from emerging (1), to progressing (2), to partial mastery (3), and finally mastery (4).
Let's say Jimmy missed school for some excused reason in the weeks that his teacher covered rational and irrational numbers. At the end of the grading period, he receives a grade of "in progress" or "incomplete," the point equivalent of 0. As the next grading period progresses and Jimmy makes up his work, his understanding of rational/irrational numbers develops. This teacher will can go back and change his score in order to fit the mastery level that Jimmy demonstrates. It doesn't necessarily mean Jimmy repeated a summative assessment like a quiz or a test, rather, his teacher formatively assessed Jimmy's progress in class and realized that he did understand rational/irrational numbers.
Some examples of standards based report cards: http://www.isbestandardsbasedreporting.com/report-card-examples.html
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Pretty sure my subsequent quotes were from that article. I was on my phone and accidentally closed the tab and didn't feel like going back and finding it.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
I just posted the link from googling your italicized quotes.
Hat tip to you as you helped me find the Union-Tribune article.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I am assuming as a fellow teacher, you would agree that none of this is at all revolutionary or even controversial. It’s already happening in thousands of districts around the county and in some cases standards based report cards for little kids has been around 20 years.I just posted the link from googling your italicized quotes.
Hat tip to you as you helped me find the Union-Tribune article.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
I earned my teaching certification in 2005 at the age of 35. I have been constructing rubrics based on standards since I cracked open "The First Days of School."
I don't test, I assess and that includes me. If my classes perform horribly I have to sit back and reflect upon what I did wrong. As a Social Studies teacher I try to offer several different ways for students to demonstrate mastery. I was deeply influence by a continuing education course that defined the differentiated classroom and included the idea that offering students different methods for assessment that encourage students to find their method of understanding and mastery. Then this Spring I took another course based on the "Opportunity Myth." Both these courses emphasized standards.
And I'm a parent of children that were in the GWBush NCLB era, which was brought forth from a RAND research project labelled ISBA - Implementing Standards-Based Accountability.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
It's not entirely about race. The article actually mentions that the biggest majority of failing grades go to English learners and students with disabilities.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I doubt it. That’s been a slow growing trend as well. SAT and ACT are total scams. They have lobbied their way into fat State contracts where States have legislated that every kid has to take them and the State pays for them despite it having no actual benefit. Those tests are designed to do 1 thing: predict the likelihood of success as a college freshman. High school GPA is more strongly correlated to success as a college freshman. I have no issue with any college wanting those test scores as part of their admission process but I also think it’s perfectly fine for colleges to not require them. I also think making every kid including kids with disabilities or kids heading to community college or kids who want to get a skilled trade or enroll in the armed forces is just ridiculous.stlrams said:
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I actually think they just understand that cheating would become more common overall.Ilov80s said:
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah cheating is a huge issue right now in general because it’s so easy. Add in more virtual schooling and it’s massive. In some ways it’s a good push for education. The old school tests where students were expected to demonstrate that they memorized a bunch of info don’t make sense in the internet age. What’s important is being able to find reliable info, analyze it, synthesize it, produce something with it, etc. Most of the tests I’m seeing the better teachers make now openly say students can use their notes, internet, etc. The test questions aren’t the type that can be googled.
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All high school gpa are not equal so you need some standardize test to differentiate. Otherwise we further water down our education system.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Most kids applying to 4 competitive year universities are taking AP classes and taking AP exams. Nothing is watered down right now. High school students are taking a more rigorous load now than they did 20 or 30 years ago. Again, I have no issue with colleges requiring the test. However, grades are the better indicator of college success. More young adults fail in college because of a lack of work ethic, organization and self control than a lack of aptitude.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Sounds all well and good, but this change in grading policy doesnt address that at all.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
They literally made it so if you got an F first semester and then a D second semester they would change your first semester grade.
You can learn all about World War 1 without knowing squat about the revolutionary war so I dont see how that policy is representative of mastery of material.
You can learn all about World War 1 without knowing squat about the revolutionary war so I dont see how that policy is representative of mastery of material.
I don’t agree that grades are the better indicator. There’s a wide disparity in the rigors of curriculums by region, by urban vs suburban vs rural. Therefore , two students with same gpa can be very far apart in terms of intelligence. From a personal experience, my girlfriend works with Yale students. Unfortunately some students enter with a limited skill sets specifically a poor grasp on grammar (spelling, grammatical error, punctuation etc).
gianmarco
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I wasn’t actually giving my opinion. I was quoting scientific research. High school GPA is 5x more predictive than ACT scores. Intelligence isn’t what the SAT and ACT measure. No college I know of requires an IQ test for entrance.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
That isn’t at all what it’s saying. The everyone gets an A title is incredibly misleading
The study only looked at students of Chicago public schools therefore it’s seriously flawed. Generally speaking, the smarter you are the higher you will score on standardize tests the better prepared you are in college.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Is it seriously flawed? That was 55,000 students in a wide range of economic circumstances and it confirmed previous studies that pointed out the same thing. Even the studies done by the ACT themselves have acknowledged this.
Imho yes. We know the better students go private or magnet. Is there a study that encompasses urban, suburban and rural students with similar gpa in high school then what’s their gpa in college. In addition, they should break out private, magnet, and public high schools.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Magnet school are public schools. There are lots of studies about this including studies conducted by the ACT themselves. Anyway, it’s not really pertinent to this thread so no need for use to go back and forth here about it.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yes magnet schools are selective but they are part of the public school system so they wouldn’t necessarily be excluded from a study on public school students. Alternatively, charter schools on average perform equal or worse than public schools. Charter schools generally aren’t allowed to be selective. None of this is really what the article is talking about though. San Diego seems to be making some simple researched based decisions that educational best practices have been pushing for awhile and instituting them as district wide policy. I am sure many of their students will continue to take the SAT/ACT because it’s still required for many universities. While the ACT and SAT are somewhat out of fashion now, they spend enough money in lobbying to ensure they remain part of the educational landscape.
Sorry to go on and on but the requirement of the SAT/ACT for all juniors in Michigan is so dumb and a huge pet peeve of mine. Spending 12 hours administering the test to kids who are borderline cognitively impaired every year only for them to get back the inevitable result that they are indeed in <1st percentile across the board isn’t a pleasant experience. Especially when many of them try hard and think it’s going to get them into Michigan State despite how many times it’s been explained that a 4 year university isn’t part of their plan.
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djmich
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah it’s not great. The alternative is the kids realize the test is way beyond them and they blow it off and then I have to battle and beg with them to be quiet for hours (no phone, no music, no book, no drawing allowed) while the other kids finish or their time expires. It’s so dumb.
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