12.22.21 - Do you approve or disapprove of the way Joe Biden is handling his job as president? (1 Viewer)

[ren hoek]

This disaster unfolding with the people of Afghanistan probably deserves it's own thread (albeit a depressing one). The unfreezing of funds is gaining traction but is obviously a convoluted issue in regards to how you would actually do this and the political aspects attached with such a move.

It's fair to say just release all the money deal with consequences later. With that I'm guessing many of the same people using this as the latest punching bag issue would have issues of giving money to the Taliban. That comes with the job.

Big mess for Blinken, Biden to unravel and of course We have plenty of work here at home to do.

I see your points TG, but I think that's pretty charitable towards the Biden admin.  The United States went to war in Afghanistan and lost.  The Taliban is the reigning government now by any reasonable measure.  The US needs to accept that it lost and treat them like it would any other ruling govt.  Sanctions always hit innocent civilians the hardest.  

One thing's for certain, I don't want to ever hear another word about Biden being more humane or better natured than Trump.  That was basically the entire thesis for electing him and it was wrong.  This economic war they are waging now will do as much damage as 20 years of hot war in Afghanistan.  Condemning an entire population to totally preventable starvation and death is completely barbaric and sickening.

 

[GoBirds]

It certainly deserves more headlines, 

But are we really now holding Biden responsible because the people of Afghanistan have chosen to live under an awful dictatorship that has no idea how to feed itself? Are we therefore responsible for the poor economic situations in Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, etc,, all of which we are boycotting, all of which have starvation and misery? 
I would think that conservatives in particular would reject this sort of argument, even if it affords them another chance to rip Biden. 

Well , we wouldn’t expect you to start now. 

 

[timschochet]

One thing's for certain, I don't want to ever hear another word about Biden being more humane or better natured than Trump.  

Too bad. It’s something I absolutely believe, and I reject your premise 100%. 

I am not sure I agree with the embargo on the Taliban. Or on Cuba. Or on Iran. These are complicated issues and worth nuanced discussion. The answers are NOT clear; not to me anyhow. 
 

But one thing I am very clear about. The USA does not bear moral responsibility because these murderous, illegitimate, authoritarian regimes can’t feed their own people. That’s full on leftist crap straight out of old Communist propaganda, and it deserves to be repudiated no matter how many times it’s dragged out. And to hold Joe Biden, or any American President, personally responsible for these tragedies is the height of absurdity and irresponsibility, IMO. 

 

[The General]

I see your points TG, but I think that's pretty charitable towards the Biden admin.  The United States went to war in Afghanistan and lost.  The Taliban is the reigning government now by any reasonable measure.  The US needs to accept that it lost and treat them like it would any other ruling govt.  Sanctions always hit innocent civilians the hardest.  

One thing's for certain, I don't want to ever hear another word about Biden being more humane or better natured than Trump.  That was basically the entire thesis for electing him and it was wrong.  This economic war they are waging now will do as much damage as 20 years of hot war in Afghanistan.  Condemning an entire population to totally preventable starvation and death is completely barbaric and sickening.

It's not fair or realistic to simply say give them this money. How do you know this money gets to the people? Do you trust the Taliban run government, I don't. 

We are giving aid a couple hundred million since August working through humanitarian organizations, we are asking neighboring countries to help - I doubt they are doing ####. 

Ultimately no one well do well here with a failed Afghanistan but it's not a cut and dry issue by any means and of course there are some US politics at play which is pretty gross. 

 

[Jamesinaz]

So much partisan opinion these days.  On both sides.  One of my problems is how I view the JOB of the president.  IMO it has so expanded beyond it's true role much of approval is dependent on if you approve of that concept. 

In the case of Biden I voted disapprove because I don't believe he is handling the core role well. 

Foreign policy is a major job for our president.  One can try to deflect that Trump was integral to the plan to leave Afghanistan but it was Biden that implemented it.  Trump chose not to and perhaps because he recognized the plan was going to fail.  Perhaps he knew the Taliban was not going to adhere to the agreement he worked with them so he stopped the withdrawal.  Between messing up Afghanistan and comments Biden has made I believe the USA is not as respected as it was prior to his election.  Our allies are not as assured of our support.  This has emboldened both Russia and China to more belligerence and aggression. 

Our border is not controlled at all.  And I don't believe the DEMs wish to do so.  Why I won't guess at.  Long term this is a massive problem for the poorer segment of our society.  We are creating a 2 class country.  We are also allowing in untested or vaccinated people and potential enemies.

Government spending and borrowing is still massively out of control.  Yeah, I know Trump spent too.  And Bush.  Etc.  I would give them a thumbs down for this as well.  I am not partisan on this topic.  As a nation we can not pay our bills now without borrowing which is like having maxed out credit cards and needing to apply for more to pay current costs.  That and they think it's a good idea to add to that problem with the BBB idea.  I remember Obama had one of those too.  Shovel ready is a phrase that comes to mind. 

Covid is not our presidents fault.  It isn't really their job to fix either but I have no issues with the steps Trump and Biden are taking to combat it.  The warp speed project was well done and they continue to aid in the funding of measures to fight covid.  Thumbs up there.  I do disagree with "mandates" though.  United Air is free to decide it requires it's employees to be vaccinated.  Every company can make such a decision.   But it isn't the job of .gov to tell every company they must vaccinate all employees.  This is government overreach.  This gives fodder to the crazed anti-vaxxers that .gov is doing something nefarious. 

End of day I do not think Biden is being much of a leader and certainly not the "uniter" he campaigned as.  Hopefully if things get froggy out there he proves me wrong and steps up and leads.  I'm not hoping for his failure.  I am an American and regardless of who I voted for he is the president and I back him.  I also judge him fairly to my view of the world.

 

[Murph]

The USA does not bear moral responsibility because these murderous, illegitimate, authoritarian regimes can’t feed their own people.

No, but it owes them the opportunity to try. The continuing asset freeze is inhumane. No different than how Haiti was (and still is) punished for having the audacity to win its freedom. A failing empire lashing out. The cruelty is the point.

 

[The General]

No, but it owes them the opportunity to try. The continuing asset freeze is inhumane. No different than how Haiti was (and still is) punished for having the audacity to win its freedom. A failing empire lashing out. The cruelty is the point.

We don't owe the Taliban a thing. 

 

[The Commish]

He's failing THAT bad.  

Now do a poll for BBB or Jan 6th and you'll get echo chamber numbers.   

It's weird......others have failed even worse and their supporters didn't even BLINK at breaking ranks while the failures were piling up....many (if not most) doubled down

 

[zoonation]

It certainly deserves more headlines, 

But are we really now holding Biden responsible because the people of Afghanistan have chosen to live under an awful dictatorship that has no idea how to feed itself? Are we therefore responsible for the poor economic situations in Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, etc,, all of which we are boycotting, all of which have starvation and misery? 
I would think that conservatives in particular would reject this sort of argument, even if it affords them another chance to rip Biden. 

So far as I am aware, America is holding Afghanistan's money in the federal reserve.  They used to fly plane loads into the country, but have stopped since the Taliban took over.  The official position is that it is the former government's money.  I understand the hesitation to see that money controlled by the Taliban, and what they would use it for, but the status quo is going to result in untold deaths.

And I wouldn't say Afghans have "chosen" to live under the Taliban.  Seems to me they had no choice.

 

[tonydead]

It's weird......others have failed even worse and their supporters didn't even BLINK at breaking ranks while the failures were piling up....many (if not most) doubled down

There it is.  But Trump!  The echo you always hear in the liberal echo chamber.   Well done.  

 

[timschochet]

So far as I am aware, America is holding Afghanistan's money in the federal reserve.  They used to fly plane loads into the country, but have stopped since the Taliban took over.  The official position is that it is the former government's money.  I understand the hesitation to see that money controlled by the Taliban, and what they would use it for, but the status quo is going to result in untold deaths.

And I wouldn't say Afghans have "chosen" to live under the Taliban.  Seems to me they had no choice.

They had 20 years to choose a democratic  liberal government that they could support. We spent billions trying to help them do so. At some point that falls on them. 

 

[GoBirds]

There it is.  But Trump!  The echo you always hear in the liberal echo chamber.   Well done.  

Even when it’s 100% not true, it always saves them from addressing the realities. 

 

[The Commish]

This disaster unfolding with the people of Afghanistan probably deserves it's own thread (albeit a depressing one). The unfreezing of funds is gaining traction but is obviously a convoluted issue in regards to how you would actually do this and the political aspects attached with such a move.

It's fair to say just release all the money deal with consequences later. With that I'm guessing many of the same people using this as the latest punching bag issue would have issues of giving money to the Taliban. That comes with the job.

Big mess for Blinken, Biden to unravel and of course We have plenty of work here at home to do.

I can't fathom what people would expect when we decided to move out and let the Taliban take over.  The result you are seeing is the result you were going to see regardless of who our President is/was/will be.  It was absolutely unavoidable and why we shouldn't have gone in the first place.  Why anyone is "shocked" or "outraged" at this point is beyond me.  Can't have it both ways.  We either stay there or we get out.  There is no fairytale ending with the Taliban where we get out and everyone lives happily ever after.

 

[zoonation]

They had 30 years to choose a democratic  liberal government that they could support. We spent billions trying to help them do so. At some point that falls on them. 

I don't disagree.  However, America inserted itself into the that situation and now controls the purse strings which directly impacts the economy (and its current collapse).  Given that we are on the doorstep of a humanitarian catastrophe,  I don't think it is morally defensible to not do something about it.

Edit to add that I do not think this impending catastrophe is all on America.  The rampage the Taliban went on to seize back power damaged crops in a year where drought was already a problem.  They literally have nothing to eat.

 

[The Commish]

There it is.  But Trump!  The echo you always hear in the liberal echo chamber.   Well done.  

Didn't mention Trump at all.  I can point to MANY examples (Trump is not unique in this regard), but it's good that he's still front and center in your mind and the first person you think of when someone brings this concept up.  I knew it was in you!!   

 

[The General]

I can't fathom what people would expect when we decided to move out and let the Taliban take over.  The result you are seeing is the result you were going to see regardless of who our President is/was/will be.  It was absolutely unavoidable and why we shouldn't have gone in the first place.  Why anyone is "shocked" or "outraged" at this point is beyond me.  Can't have it both ways.  We either stay there or we get out.  There is no fairytale ending with the Taliban where we get out and everyone lives happily ever after.

There are just paths we take at this point. None of them great. Filled with quagmires, best intentions gone bad, and unintended consequences.

 

[tonydead]

Didn't mention Trump at all.  I can point to MANY examples (Trump is not unique in this regard), but it's good that he's still front and center in your mind and the first person you think of when someone brings this concept up.  I knew it was in you!!   

Let's hear them.

 

[The General]

I don't disagree.  However, America inserted itself into the that situation and now controls the purse strings which directly impacts the economy (and its current collapse).  Given that we are on the doorstep of a humanitarian catastrophe,  I don't think it is morally defensible to not do something about it.

Do what though exactly? How does that unfold? We have been giving aid as well I would like to add.

One thing America does attempt to do to some extent (and for a variety of reasons - many self-serving of course) is give some aid to places we blow the hell up.

 

[timschochet]

I don't disagree.  However, America inserted itself into the that situation and now controls the purse strings which directly impacts the economy (and its current collapse).  Given that we are on the doorstep of a humanitarian catastrophe,  I don't think it is morally defensible to not do something about it.

If we release that money do you really believe the Taliban are going to feed their people with it? All of the history of dictatorships suggest the opposite: they will build palaces and let the people starve. 

 

[The Commish]

Let's hear them.

Sure.....McCarthy, Pelosi, D Nunez, Schiff, Trump (as you pointed out immediately), Jordan, AOC (and the squad), Cruz, McConnell.....we could go on and on....

The people who defend these kinds of people religiously are merely two sides of the exact same coin trying to convince themselves they are meaningfully different.

 

[The Commish]

There are just paths we take at this point. None of them great. Filled with quagmires, best intentions gone bad, and unintended consequences.

We don't have to take any of the paths.  In my view, the best thing we can do in that country is bring the people who want out here and allow them to assimilate to life in the United States.  It is BY FAR the CHEAPEST and EASIEST solution of them all.

 

[zoonation]

Joe Biden on track to kill a million Afghan children by some estimates.  That is not hyperbole, those are literal estimates from UNICEF.  Not even budging on sanctions.  

Seems unthinkable to "approve" of someone who does that.  Of course we've done the same thing in Venezuela, Iran, NK, Syria- very few Americans cared then either.  

I think the situation and issue is a little more complex than saying "Biden is on track to kill a million Afghan children".  I agree his response and the official American position will be a contributing factor.

 

[The General]

We don't have to take any of the paths.  In my view, the best thing we can do in that country is bring the people who want out here and allow them to assimilate to life in the United States.  It is BY FAR the CHEAPEST and EASIEST solution of them all.

Then you have this starvation issue for people left there. We can provide humanitarian aid, logistical support, etc.

 

[tonydead]

Sure.....McCarthy, Pelosi, D Nunez, Schiff, Trump (as you pointed out immediately), Jordan, AOC (and the squad), Cruz, McConnell.....we could go on and on....

The people who defend these kinds of people religiously are merely two sides of the exact same coin trying to convince themselves they are meaningfully different.

Yeah we were talking about presidents and the only president on your list is Trump.   My bad, poor assumption on my part.  

 

[timschochet]

Again it’s a complicated issue. I don’t pretend to have the answers. Maybe we should help the Afghans in some way. I’m open to that discussion.

What I’m not open to is the moral condemnation of Joe Biden and the USA that @ren hoek and others are promoting. 
 

Ever since Donald Trump became President in 2017, the extreme left has engaged in a bizarre defense of his statements and actions- their argument was not that Trump wasn’t a bad guy, it was that he was no different, no better or worse from any other President, all of whom are bad guys, and that it’s really the United States which is evil. This is an old message and we’re seeing more of it here in this example 

 

[zoonation]

If we release that money do you really believe the Taliban are going to feed their people with it? All of the history of dictatorships suggest the opposite: they will build palaces and let the people starve. 

I know it is a difficult situation.  But something needs to be done.  I'm not claiming to have a workable solution, but I do note that Biden's moves in Afghanistan, from the withdrawal on, are contributing factors to this mess.

 

[The Commish]

Then you have this starvation issue for people left there. We can provide humanitarian aid, logistical support, etc.

Perhaps....they'd need to go through NGOs IMO.  But again, if we provide a way out and they don't want it, I'm not concerned all that much with what happens if they are left behind.  At some point we have to draw the line.

 

[zoonation]

Do what though exactly? How does that unfold? We have been giving aid as well I would like to add.

One thing America does attempt to do to some extent (and for a variety of reasons - many self-serving of course) is give some aid to places we blow the hell up.

I'd be interested to read what aid they have been giving?  My information (which may not be accurate) is that not only are they not doing so, they are preventing other countries from doing so too.  I will dig into it a bit more when I have time.  Have had to work until Santa is basically coming down the chimney.

 

[The General]

I know it is a difficult situation.  But something needs to be done.  I'm not claiming to have a workable solution, but I do not that Biden's moves in Afghanistan, from the withdrawal on, are contributing factors to this mess.

The people who would would be giving money to are the ones who took the country over and brutalize their people.

 

[zoonation]

The people who would would be giving money to are the ones who took the country over and brutalize their people.

I know.  It's a terrible situation.

 

[GoBirds]

Yeah we were talking about presidents and the only president on your list is Trump.   My bad, poor assumption on my part.  

Yet they defend(or can’t criticize without “But Trump”) this guy to the end……that was supposed to be best at what he’s failing at worst. 

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/10/09/amid-campaign-turmoil-biden-holds-wide-leads-on-coronavirus-unifying-the-country/

 

[The General]

I'd be interested to read what aid they have been giving?  My information (which may not be accurate) is that not only are they not doing so, they are preventing other countries from doing so too.  I will dig into it a bit more when I have time.  Have had to work until Santa is basically coming down the chimney.

I read an article that quoted the State Dept saying it was a couple hundred million in aid since August. It didn’t get into details though. 

 

[The Commish]

Yeah we were talking about presidents and the only president on your list is Trump.   My bad, poor assumption on my part.  

Weird....I thought we were talking about this place being an echo chamber and in order for it to be so, the voting on this question would have to be much different.  If it makes you feel better and sobers you up a little bit, you can take Trump off the list or add Obama to the list....whatever makes you feel better.  My point with regard to this place being an echo chamber remains.  There are WAY too many people here who voted for Biden that aren't happy with his performance for this place to be considered an echo chamber by any reasonable definition.  Anti Trump?  Sure.....liberals and conservatives alike can get on that train easily.

 

[tonydead]

Yet they defend(or can’t criticize without “But Trump”) this guy to the end……that was supposed to be best at what he’s failing at worst. 

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/10/09/amid-campaign-turmoil-biden-holds-wide-leads-on-coronavirus-unifying-the-country/

All you have to do is let that guy talk and he will do the rest.  

 

[tonydead]

Weird....I thought we were talking about this place being an echo chamber and in order for it to be so, the voting on this question would have to be much different.  If it makes you feel better and sobers you up a little bit, you can take Trump off the list or add Obama to the list....whatever makes you feel better.  My point with regard to this place being an echo chamber remains.  There are WAY too many people here who voted for Biden that aren't happy with his performance for this place to be considered an echo chamber by any reasonable definition.  Anti Trump?  Sure.....liberals and conservatives alike can get on that train easily.

Read the Title, the OP and then try to keep up with the conversation?

 

[supermike80]

Weird....I thought we were talking about this place being an echo chamber and in order for it to be so, the voting on this question would have to be much different.  If it makes you feel better and sobers you up a little bit, you can take Trump off the list or add Obama to the list....whatever makes you feel better.  My point with regard to this place being an echo chamber remains.  There are WAY too many people here who voted for Biden that aren't happy with his performance for this place to be considered an echo chamber by any reasonable definition.  Anti Trump?  Sure.....liberals and conservatives alike can get on that train easily.

Um.  Theres more to the echo chamber than just Biden.  You all can't with a straight face defend this Presidents performance.   

 

[Philo Beddoe]

Too bad. It’s something I absolutely believe, and I reject your premise 100%. 

I am not sure I agree with the embargo on the Taliban. Or on Cuba. Or on Iran. These are complicated issues and worth nuanced discussion. The answers are NOT clear; not to me anyhow. 
 

But one thing I am very clear about. The USA does not bear moral responsibility because these murderous, illegitimate, authoritarian regimes can’t feed their own people. That’s full on leftist crap straight out of old Communist propaganda, and it deserves to be repudiated no matter how many times it’s dragged out. And to hold Joe Biden, or any American President, personally responsible for these tragedies is the height of absurdity and irresponsibility, IMO. 

Yet, you want to let the stream of folks from the northern triangle counties continue to invade our borders without restrictions because you claim we have a moral obligation to do so. You also feel whatever foreign aid (450 mil) we provide the northern triangle isn’t enough and you want to continue to fund these murderous authoritarian regimens.  

 

[The General]

I know.  It's a terrible situation.

Here was the article I read that mentioned the aid: Link

 

[tonydead]

Tim only cares about the 

Yet, you want to let the stream of folks from the northern triangle counties continue to invade our borders without restrictions because you claim we have a moral obligation to do so. You also feel whatever foreign aid (450 mil) we provide the northern triangle isn’t enough and you want to continue to fund these murderous authoritarian regimens.  

  Shut the border and cut off aide to Central America.   

 

[KarmaPolice]

He has sunk below average for me, so I voted disapprove.    Way too much rushing in without a plan (border, Afghanistan?),  not getting BBB through, and for me not figuring out a way to get more vaxes out (incentives, messaging)/not having testing cheap and easy everywhere.   

 

[Philo Beddoe]

Strong disapproval but I’ve felt that way about every president since Clinton.

 

[timschochet]

Tim only cares about the 

Yet, you want to let the stream of folks from the northern triangle counties continue to invade our borders without restrictions because you claim we have a moral obligation to do so. You also feel whatever foreign aid (450 mil) we provide the northern triangle isn’t enough and you want to continue to fund these murderous authoritarian regimens.  

I approve of foreign aid because it serves our interests IMO, not out of moral responsibility. My views on immigration are a little more complicated- I believe that we should serve our interests AND do what’s right and these do not conflict. 

 

[ren hoek]

But one thing I am very clear about. The USA does not bear moral responsibility because these murderous, illegitimate, authoritarian regimes can’t feed their own people. That’s full on leftist crap straight out of old Communist propaganda, and it deserves to be repudiated no matter how many times it’s dragged out. And to hold Joe Biden, or any American President, personally responsible for these tragedies is the height of absurdity and irresponsibility, IMO. 

Of course the US bears moral responsibility.  Blaming the Afghans for their own misery- as if they weren't the epicenter of a brutal war for 20 years, and at war with the Soviets before that, and now financially blockaded from their own money by a foreign empire- like all of this happens in a vacuum and we have zero responsibility for it at all is childish.  What a childish worldview that is.

The World Bank has cut them off from aid, the IMF has blocked them from financial relief, the US has frozen $9B in assets in addition to ongoing financial sanctions which inhibit aid organizations.  What this is going to cause is mass starvation, widespread poverty and death.  The people most impacted by this financial blockade will be innocent civilians.  The Taliban will probably become radically more authoritarian and violent as the situation escalates. 

Why do you figure 40-someodd Democrats wrote him a letter begging him to ease up on economic punishment against Afghans?  At what point do you hold Biden accountable for a grave situation he could probably fix with a phone call and the stroke of a pen?  It's a simple matter of giving them what is theirs, recognizing the de facto govt, and letting ordinary Afghans participate in these delicate financial systems.  

 

[ren hoek]

Link to letter from the progressive caucus to Joe Biden:

https://twitter.com/USProgressives/status/1472992658121543686

 

[shadrap]

If we release that money do you really believe the Taliban are going to feed their people with it? All of the history of dictatorships suggest the opposite: they will build palaces and let the people starve. 

yep, that is what happens.

 

[shadrap]

We don't have to take any of the paths.  In my view, the best thing we can do in that country is bring the people who want out here and allow them to assimilate to life in the United States.  It is BY FAR the CHEAPEST and EASIEST solution of them all.

you serious?  basically 85% of them would want in to the USA.  you may want to rethink that.  but if we do that maybe include the Congo, Somalia, Syria?

 

[shadrap]

Tim only cares about the 

Yet, you want to let the stream of folks from the northern triangle counties continue to invade our borders without restrictions because you claim we have a moral obligation to do so. You also feel whatever foreign aid (450 mil) we provide the northern triangle isn’t enough and you want to continue to fund these murderous authoritarian regimens.  

good post.

 

[The Commish]

Um.  Theres more to the echo chamber than just Biden.  You all can't with a straight face defend this Presidents performance.   

Never once have

 

[The Commish]

you serious?  basically 85% of them would want in to the USA.  you may want to rethink that.  but if we do that maybe include the Congo, Somalia, Syria?

Id be fine with it. We arent keeping the numbers up internally.  They have to come from somewhere.

 

[The Commish]

Read the Title, the OP and then try to keep up with the conversation?

You engaged me