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2006 Hall of Fame class (1 Viewer)

I'm glad Moon made it.

Not so sure about Harry Carson though... I always felt that Carl Banks was better.

...and until Monk makes it, I don't consider the voting legit.

I guess Monk should have cowed out and said he wants to be removed from the process, ala Harry Carson last year.

 
Monk 68 TDs 12721 YDs

Irvin 65 TDs, 11904 YDs

HOF is a joke
So Irvin produced comparable numbers to Monk but did it in 159 games played to Monk's 224. That doesn't help Monk's case. Irvin was always his team's best receiver. Monk rarely was, and he never was in his Super Bowl seasons or in Super Bowl games. There are good arguments both for and against Monk. Peter King may be wrong, but when he's written about it he sounds like somebody who has thoughtfully considered the matter. He only has one vote so there must be quite a number of other voters must share his view.

Everyone who got in is a deserving candidate as far as I'm concerned. I also thought Thurman Thomas, Irvin, and Kuechenberg deserved it but only 6 can make it in at a time. So many guys play and there is such a backlog of qualified candidates that it's probably hard to get people to focus on everybody.

I think there should be a separate category for coaches and executives. I don't know that Madden deserves a spot more than Thurman, but Madden is 70 now and if you are going to ultimately vote a guy in, you probably ought to do it while he's still alive to be honored.

As for Moon, I doubt his CFL playing mattered much. It should be noted though that he only played in the CFL, at least in part, because of racism. It's not his fault he got a late start to his NFL career. He was the NFL's first star African American QB, and perhaps he deserves a little credit for his trailblazing role.

 
Never understood why people think Thurman Thomas was so much better a HoF candidate than Moon. Moon was such a dominant QB for years for a longer than T.T. was at RB.

Of course, this will be all moot next year when he and Irvin both get in.
Please name me one signature Moon game/moment. When was this guy ever dominant?
 
OK, so calling Rayfield Wright a "stiff" was a little over the top. From the reaction of the Cowboy homers, you'd a thought I insulted yo' mama, rather than just a football player. I didn't like Wright because he was a Cowboy, but I guess he deserves the HOF. But just because he made two more Pro Bowls than Grimm and/or Jacoby doesn't make him a better OL than either of them.

BTW, I also think Gary Clark has as good a claim to the Hall as either Monk or Irvin. Compare Clark and Irvin's numbers and you'll be amazed at how good Clark was, and he gets NO consideration. If Irvin wasn't on TV now, he'd not even be considered.

 
This Cowboy fan is very happy the Big Cat got in the Hall.

To the person who called him a stiff :thumbdown:

Rayfield was comparably at Walter Jones current level for 7 straight years. No other tackle in the NFL played in the second level like the Big Cat. He was a beast.

Now if we just get Bob Hayes in the Hall...

 
If Irvin wasn't on TV now, he'd not even be considered.
This should read.....If Irvin wasn't the best receiver on a team that was a dynasty and one of the top 3 receivers of the 90s, he'd not even be considered.
 
If Irvin wasn't on TV now, he'd not even be considered.
This should read.....If Irvin wasn't the best receiver on a team that was a dynasty and one of the top 3 receivers of the 90s, he'd not even be considered.
Yeah, Irvin's so bad on TV that his ESPN gig is probably hurting his chances, not helping them.
 
OK, so calling Rayfield Wright a "stiff" was a little over the top. From the reaction of the Cowboy homers, you'd a thought I insulted yo' mama, rather than just a football player. I didn't like Wright because he was a Cowboy, but I guess he deserves the HOF. But just because he made two more Pro Bowls than Grimm and/or Jacoby doesn't make him a better OL than either of them.

BTW, I also think Gary Clark has as good a claim to the Hall as either Monk or Irvin. Compare Clark and Irvin's numbers and you'll be amazed at how good Clark was, and he gets NO consideration. If Irvin wasn't on TV now, he'd not even be considered.
Wright made 4 All-Pro Teams and was All-Pro Second Team twice, and he played in 5 Super Bowls. I'm no expert on offensive line play but if Wright is at least comparable to Grimm and/or Jacoby then I think he deserved to go in first since he waited the longest. I agree Clark was better then Monk. But I also think Mark Clayton was better than both of them (and Andre Reed). I don't think Clark or Clayton have much of a shot.

 
Never understood why people think Thurman Thomas was so much better a HoF candidate than Moon.  Moon was such a dominant QB for years for a longer than T.T. was at RB.

Of course, this will be all moot next year when he and Irvin both get in.
Please name me one signature Moon game/moment. When was this guy ever dominant?
Good comment hereI wanna see somebody try to come up with something here

 
Never understood why people think Thurman Thomas was so much better a HoF candidate than Moon.  Moon was such a dominant QB for years for a longer than T.T. was at RB.

Of course, this will be all moot next year when he and Irvin both get in.
Please name me one signature Moon game/moment. When was this guy ever dominant?
That playoff game up in Buffalo!
 
Good class :thumbup:

Of note... Art Monk and Derrick Thomas did not make it to the cut to 10. Michael Irvin and Thurman Thomas made it to the cut to 10, but not to the cut to 6.
I wonder if Irvin dropped down because of his recent problems. :ph34r:
Odds are that Michael Irvin was more "high" than down :) ....
 
Irvin's career was cut short because of injury. Monk was around forever. (Didn't he play for the Jets at some point?) Monk was a fine player, but Irvin was head and shoulders better on the field. He used to punk PUSH OFF Darrel Green. There aren't too many players to have ever beaten Green, much less get the better of him. You will find much better arguments to get him in then compairing him to Irvin.
Fixed.
I do think he should already be in. He was a proffesional. He did win *3 Superbowls. He did own 3 of the most acomplished records for rec's.

It's a no brainer if he wasn't passed up by so many WR's recently. But all the recent wideouts just blowing by him have sure hurt his chances. I can honestly say I would probably take 10 current rec's over him right now.

Owens

Moss

S.Smith

Harrison

C.Johnson

L.Fitz

A.Bolden

E. Moulds

T.Holt

Plaxico

Rod Smith

Yep. I can EASILY say I would take every one of these guys over Monk. Obviously some of them are potential, expecially the young guys.
Plaxico? Are you kidding?
 
Moon is a worthy HOFer based solely on his NFL accomplishments.  He is in the top 5 all time in the NFL in passing attempts, completions, passing yards, and passing TDs.  He also made 9 Pro Bowls.
But when it's all said and done, what do all those completions and yards really mean?Nothing.

He never won a big game, and the run 'n shoot Oilers threw a million times a game.

Hell, Bobby Hebert and Cody Carlson looked good in that offense.
And so did Strock behind Marino. without Moon, the Oilers aren't even competitive. You want big games...how about a gazillion Grey Cups.

 
Moon is a worthy HOFer based solely on his NFL accomplishments. He is in the top 5 all time in the NFL in passing attempts, completions, passing yards, and passing TDs. He also made 9 Pro Bowls.
But when it's all said and done, what do all those completions and yards really mean?Nothing.

He never won a big game, and the run 'n shoot Oilers threw a million times a game.

Hell, Bobby Hebert and Cody Carlson looked good in that offense.
And so did Strock behind Marino. without Moon, the Oilers aren't even competitive. You want big games...how about a gazillion Grey Cups.
But SERIOUSLY, folks....
 
Once again, Art Monk gets totally screwed because of one man, Peter "I'm a total incomptent hack" King, who with his typical New York bias, refuses to vote for anyone from the Redskins of the 1980s. 
When the Pro Football Hall of Fame opens up the "stuck around for endless seasons compiling very average statistics" wing, then Art Monk will be a lock for enshrinement. :banned:

 
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HTF did Thurman Thomas not make it? :confused:
IMO, if Norwood's kick is 2 feet to the left, Thomas is a first ballot HoF'er.It sucks, but the committee weighs Super Bowl rings quite heavily.

:shrug:
I agree Thurman was the class of the league for several years. No Super Bowl. What a shame.
 
The hall taking Moon & Aikman right away is stupid, but undertandable. It's really becoming the hall of quarterbacks and some guys who played other spots.

With any luck, we'll see NO QB's elected from now until at least 2010 (Favre).

I suspect however, we're going to see some interesting QB finalists over the next half-decade, guys like Cuningham, Krieg, and guys from prior eras who haven't made it like Hart. And one or two of them will make it. Ugh.

 
Please stop with the Moon bashing. He is in the top 5 in most passing statistics (even though he never had a stud RB or WR like the Montanas, Elways, Aikmans, Youngs, etc), was incredibly productive for a long period of time (past 40) and blazed a trail for all the black QB's in the league today (I mention this as some HOF'ers are in for things besides stats...i.e. Namath and SB III). No, he didn't win the ring, but football is a team sport. Montana lost when he left all the talent in San Fran. Elway lost until he got a stud RB. Marino never won.

Someone asked when did Moon have a great game that mattered, or stand out. DID YOU WATCH ANY OILERS PLAYOFF GAMES. From 89-93, Moon gave his team a 4th quarter lead in a playoff game each season, and the defense blew the lead every time (hell, he got his team up 35-3 vs Buffalo). Sorry, but Moon doesn't play defense.

This article by John McClain sums up his "worthiness":

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports...in/3633151.html

Feb. 2, 2006, 11:24PM

ON PRO FOOTBALL

Moon belongs among NFL's legendary stars

Voters split on whether ex-Oiler should get a spot in Hall of Fame

By JOHN MCCLAIN

Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

DETROIT - Former Oilers quarterback Warren Moon, a member of Seattle's radio broadcast crew, is eligible for the Pro Football Hall of Fame for the first time.

When the 39-member Hall of Fame selection committee meets Saturday morning, it will determine the Class of 2006 — a class that could have as many as six and as few as three.

It'll be the toughest vote in history.

Like Moon, Troy Aikman, Reggie White and Thurman Thomas — who starred at Willowridge High School — are eligible for the first time.

Although Moon also played for the Vikings, Seahawks and Chiefs during a 17-year NFL career, no one is more qualified to judge him than Oilers' fans who celebrated and suffered with him during his 10 years in Houston.

Moon is very deserving of being inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame on the first ballot, but it's going to be difficult. A survey of voters shows that Moon has backers and detractors.

Hopefully, the voters will listen carefully to Saturday morning's presentation that will show — beyond a shadow of a doubt — that Moon should be part of this year's class that will be enshrined in Canton, Ohio, in August.

The two biggest obstacles in Moon's path to Canton are voters who say he compiled phenomenal statistics in the run-and-shoot, and he couldn't win the big playoff game to reach the Super Bowl.

Let's examine each.

First, Moon was a starter for 15 of his 17 seasons. He only played in the run-and-shoot for four seasons (1990-93).

Second, Moon didn't play in a Super Bowl. Dan Fouts never played in one, either, and he was a first-ballot inductee.

Comparable to Fouts

Check out how Moon compares to Fouts: Both had 15 seasons as a starter. Moon had more yards (49,325 to 43,040), more touchdown passes (291 to 254), more regular-season victories (102 to 85), more playoff seasons (nine to four), more 3,000-yard seasons (nine to six), more Pro Bowls (nine to six) and the same number of playoff victories (three).

Fouts was deserving, and Moon should be, too.

But some voters just can't get beyond the fact that Moon didn't win more playoff games.

Here's something they should consider: In playoff losses to Pittsburgh (26-23 in overtime) after the 1989 season, Denver (26-24) after the 1991 season, Buffalo (41-38 in overtime) after the 1992 season and Kansas City (28-20) after the 1993 season, Moon was remarkable.

In those four games, the Oilers averaged 25 points. Moon completed 124 of 177 for 1,317 yards and 10 TDs with four interceptions. That's a 330-yard average despite trips to Denver and Buffalo.

In each of those four games, the defense blew fourth-quarter leads.

And you don't need to be reminded, of course, that the Oilers led Buffalo 35-3 midway through the third quarter.

Here is more evidence that will be presented Saturday:

Only three quarterbacks in history have led their teams to eight consecutive playoff appearances: Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana and Moon.

In 15 seasons as a starter, Moon's teams made the playoffs nine times. As a starter, Moon had 12 straight seasons in which his teams didn't have a losing record.

The only quarterbacks selected to play in nine Pro Bowls are John Elway, Dan Marino and Moon.

During a 10-year stretch from 1986-1995, only Marino threw for more yards than Moon (37,410 to 36,130). During that period, Marino (254) and Jim Kelly (223) are the only ones with more touchdown passes than Moon (220). Moon had more playoff seasons (nine) than Kelly (six), Elway (five) and Marino (four).

A worthy role model

Also, when Moon was 39 years old, he threw for 4,228 yards and 33 touchdowns with Minnesota. When he was 41, he threw for 3,678 yards and 25 touchdowns with Seattle.

Even though it's the Pro Football Hall of Fame, achievements in the Canadian Football League don't carry weight with the committee, so Moon's five Grey Cups in the CFL won't merit consideration.

Quarterbacks like Steve McNair and Donovan McNabb said this week that Moon influenced their careers and opened doors for them. Moon showed coaches, general managers and owners that an African-American could excel at the most important position on the team, which made him a trailblazer for a generation of young black quarterbacks.

Trailblazers, especially those who overcame so many obstacles to post some of the most impressive numbers in history, deserve to be immortalized in Canton.

John McClain covers the Texans and the NFL for the Chronicle. john.mcclain@chron.com.

 
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Once again, Art Monk gets totally screwed because of one man, Peter "I'm a total incomptent hack" King, who with his typical New York bias, refuses to vote for anyone from the Redskins of the 1980s. 
When the Pro Football Hall of Fame opens up the "stuck around for endless seasons compiling very average statistics" wing, then Art Monk will be a lock for enshrinement. :banned:
They already did. You weren't aware that Moon got in? If this guy dosen't play in the run and shoot and didn't put up artificially high stats for a couple years we are not even talking about him right now. I watched Moon a lot and I never recall thinking there was anything special about him. Anyone that is not just purely looking at end of career stats and actually watched him play knows that he was a good QB, but never special/great. IMO good players do not belong in the HOF. But, that is the point where we are at with the pro football HOF. Any HOF that has a minimum number of guys that must get in each year dosen't hold much weight.
 
Once again, Art Monk gets totally screwed because of one man, Peter "I'm a total incomptent hack" King, who with his typical New York bias, refuses to vote for anyone from the Redskins of the 1980s. 
When the Pro Football Hall of Fame opens up the "stuck around for endless seasons compiling very average statistics" wing, then Art Monk will be a lock for enshrinement. :banned:
They already did. You weren't aware that Moon got in? If this guy dosen't play in the run and shoot and didn't put up artificially high stats for a couple years we are not even talking about him right now. I watched Moon a lot and I never recall thinking there was anything special about him. Anyone that is not just purely looking at end of career stats and actually watched him play knows that he was a good QB, but never special/great. IMO good players do not belong in the HOF. But, that is the point where we are at with the pro football HOF. Any HOF that has a minimum number of guys that must get in each year dosen't hold much weight.
First, Moon was a starter for 15 of his 17 seasons. He only played in the run-and-shoot for four seasons (1990-93).Sorry, but I think his longetivity was more of a factor to his high statistics than the R&S system. Either way, it's silly to say he has artificially high stats due to the R&S as he only played in it for 4 out of 17 seasons. But hey, don't let facts get in the way....

 
A worthy role model
Yes, choking out your wife is an admirable trait.
Off the field actions have no relevance in HOF voting (or at least they shouldn't according to the selection process in place). A Radier fan speaking of admirable traits in football players? :hophead:
 
Once again, Art Monk gets totally screwed because of one man, Peter "I'm a total incomptent hack" King, who with his typical New York bias, refuses to vote for anyone from the Redskins of the 1980s. 
When the Pro Football Hall of Fame opens up the "stuck around for endless seasons compiling very average statistics" wing, then Art Monk will be a lock for enshrinement. :banned:
They already did. You weren't aware that Moon got in? If this guy dosen't play in the run and shoot and didn't put up artificially high stats for a couple years we are not even talking about him right now. I watched Moon a lot and I never recall thinking there was anything special about him. Anyone that is not just purely looking at end of career stats and actually watched him play knows that he was a good QB, but never special/great. IMO good players do not belong in the HOF. But, that is the point where we are at with the pro football HOF. Any HOF that has a minimum number of guys that must get in each year dosen't hold much weight.
First, Moon was a starter for 15 of his 17 seasons. He only played in the run-and-shoot for four seasons (1990-93).Sorry, but I think his longetivity was more of a factor to his high statistics than the R&S system. Either way, it's silly to say he has artificially high stats due to the R&S as he only played in it for 4 out of 17 seasons. But hey, don't let facts get in the way....
My point is that his stats are very ordinary the other years when he didn't play in the run and shoot. And I don't think guys should get in just becuase they played a long time and compiled large stat lines. No one in here has yet to come up with a great/signature Warren Moon game or moment. He was never great and I don't think merely good players should be in a HOF. Do you think he was a great player?
 
A worthy role model
Yes, choking out your wife is an admirable trait.
Off the field actions have no relevance in HOF voting (or at least they shouldn't according to the selection process in place). A Radier fan speaking of admirable traits in football players? :hophead:
Ask Michael Irvin if that is true. Why hold it against him and not Moon? And because I am a Raiders fan I can't be a decent person and have no right to criticize someone for a truly deplolrable act?
 
A worthy role model
Yes, choking out your wife is an admirable trait.
Off the field actions have no relevance in HOF voting (or at least they shouldn't according to the selection process in place). A Radier fan speaking of admirable traits in football players? :hophead:
Ask Michael Irvin if that is true. Why hold it against him and not Moon? And because I am a Raiders fan I can't be a decent person and have no right to criticize someone for a truly deplolrable act?
Of course you can't.ALL Raider fans are thugs.... didn't you know that?

:rolleyes:

 
Once again, Art Monk gets totally screwed because of one man, Peter "I'm a total incomptent hack" King, who with his typical New York bias, refuses to vote for anyone from the Redskins of the 1980s. 
When the Pro Football Hall of Fame opens up the "stuck around for endless seasons compiling very average statistics" wing, then Art Monk will be a lock for enshrinement. :banned:
They already did. You weren't aware that Moon got in? If this guy dosen't play in the run and shoot and didn't put up artificially high stats for a couple years we are not even talking about him right now. I watched Moon a lot and I never recall thinking there was anything special about him. Anyone that is not just purely looking at end of career stats and actually watched him play knows that he was a good QB, but never special/great. IMO good players do not belong in the HOF. But, that is the point where we are at with the pro football HOF. Any HOF that has a minimum number of guys that must get in each year dosen't hold much weight.
First, Moon was a starter for 15 of his 17 seasons. He only played in the run-and-shoot for four seasons (1990-93).Sorry, but I think his longetivity was more of a factor to his high statistics than the R&S system. Either way, it's silly to say he has artificially high stats due to the R&S as he only played in it for 4 out of 17 seasons. But hey, don't let facts get in the way....
My point is that his stats are very ordinary the other years when he didn't play in the run and shoot. And I don't think guys should get in just becuase they played a long time and compiled large stat lines. No one in here has yet to come up with a great/signature Warren Moon game or moment. He was never great and I don't think merely good players should be in a HOF. Do you think he was a great player?
Are these stats ordinary for the following seasons NOT in the R&S?| Passing | Rushing |

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

| 1988 hou | 11 | 160 294 54.4 2327 7.9 17 8 | 33 88 5 |

| 1989 hou | 16 | 280 464 60.3 3631 7.8 23 14 | 70 268 4 |

| 1995 min | 16 | 377 606 62.2 4228 7.0 33 14 | 33 82 0 |

| 1997 sea | 15 | 313 528 59.3 3678 7.0 25 16 | 17 40 1 |

Again, those are numbers without a stud RB or WR. Most HOF QB's had more offensive help than Moon did.

Moon played 17 NFL seasons, and was very productive for 15 of them. That doesn't count the extra 5-6 years he played in Canada because an NFL team wouldn't give him a shot. If you don't think it's remarkable to play QB at a high level past the age of 40, then I don't know what to say....

Moon has the highest second passing game of all time (527 yards against the Chiefs). Is that not a "great game"?

 
A worthy role model
Yes, choking out your wife is an admirable trait.
Off the field actions have no relevance in HOF voting (or at least they shouldn't according to the selection process in place). A Radier fan speaking of admirable traits in football players? :hophead:
Ask Michael Irvin if that is true. Why hold it against him and not Moon? And because I am a Raiders fan I can't be a decent person and have no right to criticize someone for a truly deplolrable act?
Of course you can be. I just think it's a lil hypocritical unless you don't want former players that wore silver abd black in the Hall, because your team is not known for saint like players.And again, the voting shouldn't consider off the field issues, so you really don't have a case.

 
Once again, Art Monk gets totally screwed because of one man, Peter "I'm a total incomptent hack" King, who with his typical New York bias, refuses to vote for anyone from the Redskins of the 1980s.
When the Pro Football Hall of Fame opens up the "stuck around for endless seasons compiling very average statistics" wing, then Art Monk will be a lock for enshrinement. :banned:
They already did. You weren't aware that Moon got in? If this guy dosen't play in the run and shoot and didn't put up artificially high stats for a couple years we are not even talking about him right now. I watched Moon a lot and I never recall thinking there was anything special about him. Anyone that is not just purely looking at end of career stats and actually watched him play knows that he was a good QB, but never special/great. IMO good players do not belong in the HOF. But, that is the point where we are at with the pro football HOF. Any HOF that has a minimum number of guys that must get in each year dosen't hold much weight.
First, Moon was a starter for 15 of his 17 seasons. He only played in the run-and-shoot for four seasons (1990-93).Sorry, but I think his longetivity was more of a factor to his high statistics than the R&S system. Either way, it's silly to say he has artificially high stats due to the R&S as he only played in it for 4 out of 17 seasons. But hey, don't let facts get in the way....
My point is that his stats are very ordinary the other years when he didn't play in the run and shoot. And I don't think guys should get in just becuase they played a long time and compiled large stat lines. No one in here has yet to come up with a great/signature Warren Moon game or moment. He was never great and I don't think merely good players should be in a HOF. Do you think he was a great player?
Are these stats ordinary for the following seasons NOT in the R&S?| Passing | Rushing |

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

| 1988 hou | 11 | 160 294 54.4 2327 7.9 17 8 | 33 88 5 |

| 1989 hou | 16 | 280 464 60.3 3631 7.8 23 14 | 70 268 4 |

| 1995 min | 16 | 377 606 62.2 4228 7.0 33 14 | 33 82 0 |

| 1997 sea | 15 | 313 528 59.3 3678 7.0 25 16 | 17 40 1 |

Again, those are numbers without a stud RB or WR. Most HOF QB's had more offensive help than Moon did.
:confused: :confused: :confused: A closer look at your four examples from above.

In '88 & '89, Moon threw to Duncan, Hill, Givens and Jeffires. Possibly the best quartet of WRs who were ever on the same field at the same time.

In 1995, Moon had Robert Smith as his RB. The same Robert Smith who led the NFC in rushing. He also has Cris Carter and Jake Reed as his receivers.

In 1997, Moon's primary RB was Chris Warren, who had a 1500+ yard season under his belt. That year, he also had Joey Galloway, who was a very dangerous WR.

Let's not make it sound like he was surrounded by the 1976 Buccaneers.

 
The view of one voter:

Dr. Z: Breaking Down the Class of '06

SI.com: What player caused the most heated debate?

Dr. Z: Well, some of the debates got testy, but none were vicious. A real interesting player was Warren Moon. I think people were aware he would be the first black quarterback and some of the obstacles he had faced in his career. The fact he was the MVP of the Rose Bowl at University of Washington and still had to go up to the CFL. And then someone asked if it was appropriate to consider his CFL numbers. It didn't really matter, he got in on strength of his NFL career.
 
The view of one voter:

Dr. Z: Breaking Down the Class of '06

SI.com: What player caused the most heated debate?

Dr. Z: Well, some of the debates got testy, but none were vicious. A real interesting player was Warren Moon. I think people were aware he would be the first black quarterback and some of the obstacles he had faced in his career. The fact he was the MVP of the Rose Bowl at University of Washington and still had to go up to the CFL. And then someone asked if it was appropriate to consider his CFL numbers. It didn't really matter, he got in on strength of his NFL career.
'Splain to me this, from the same article:
SI.com: What about Michael Irvin?

Dr. Z: There wasn't a negative thing said about him. We are told not to consider off-the-field issues. I honestly think he was a victim of the numbers game this year. And maybe some people thought three Cowboys (Aikman and Wright made it in) were too much.

SI.com: Tell me about the John Madden discussion.

Dr. Z: It was raised that Madden has had such a profound influence on the NFL through his video game. I don't see what that has to do with anything. I said, 'What about the Bob Kuechenberg video game?' And there is that quesiton out there about wheter Al Davis was really the puppet master in Oakland. But Madden does have the highest winning percentage of any coach, which has to be taken into account. I voted for him.
:confused: Sounds like some guys are throwing out mixed signals in these voting meetings. I commend Zimmerman for questioning the logic offered there. I also hope he keeps championing Kooch; I'd love to see him in the Hall.

 
The view of one voter:

Dr. Z: Breaking Down the Class of '06

SI.com: What player caused the most heated debate?

Dr. Z: Well, some of the debates got testy, but none were vicious. A real interesting player was Warren Moon. I think people were aware he would be the first black quarterback and some of the obstacles he had faced in his career. The fact he was the MVP of the Rose Bowl at University of Washington and still had to go up to the CFL. And then someone asked if it was appropriate to consider his CFL numbers. It didn't really matter, he got in on strength of his NFL career.
'Splain to me this, from the same article:
SI.com: What about Michael Irvin?

Dr. Z: There wasn't a negative thing said about him. We are told not to consider off-the-field issues. I honestly think he was a victim of the numbers game this year. And maybe some people thought three Cowboys (Aikman and Wright made it in) were too much.

SI.com: Tell me about the John Madden discussion.

Dr. Z: It was raised that Madden has had such a profound influence on the NFL through his video game. I don't see what that has to do with anything. I said, 'What about the Bob Kuechenberg video game?' And there is that quesiton out there about wheter Al Davis was really the puppet master in Oakland. But Madden does have the highest winning percentage of any coach, which has to be taken into account. I voted for him.
:confused: Sounds like some guys are throwing out mixed signals in these voting meetings. I commend Zimmerman for questioning the logic offered there. I also hope he keeps championing Kooch; I'd love to see him in the Hall.
Negative off-field issues aren't allowed to be discussed.
 
SI.com: What about Michael Irvin?

Dr. Z: There wasn't a negative thing said about him. We are told not to consider off-the-field issues. I honestly think he was a victim of the numbers game this year. And maybe some people thought three Cowboys (Aikman and Wright made it in) were too much.
It seems quite telling that this was even a factor.
 
Thurman Thomas got screwed. Plain and simple.
I thought he was more worthy than Moon, personally.
He was more deserving than Moon AND Carson. He was the best all-around RB for a 3-5 year period and one of the 3 best RBs over a 10 year period (behind only Smith and Sanders, 2 of the best ever). Carson? Give me freaking break. I guess if you ##### and whine about getting in, you can guilt trip the guys into getting you in. What a joke.
Did you ever watch Carson's teams?Carson was a better Linebacker than Thurman was a RB. And I really like Thurman, and believe he should be in the hall.

Carson was barely behind Singletary as the clear second best ILB of his generation. Even with LT along side him, there were many, MANY games where Harry Carson was the best player on the field. Either side.

It was a joke motivated by many political and other issues that kept Carson from the hall - and ask many, the football HoF process is one of the worst (and there are some issues with the others, mind you).

I find it hard to believe that someone who saw much of Carson play would have any issue with his induction, other than the fact that it took way, way too long.

 
The pro football hall of fame once again shows itself to be a complete joke. Michael Irvin and Thurman Thomas were 10 times the football players that Moon or Carson were. The hall of fame should be for great players, not good players that played a long time and compiled big stat lines IMO. Warren Moon was never a great player and has no business in the hall of fame.
See above post about Carson. He was one of the top two players at his position for his era. Not sure what else you want. Moon I agree. Thurman and even Irvin should make it ahead of Moon.

 
I'm glad Moon made it.

Not so sure about Harry Carson though... I always felt that Carl Banks was better.

...and until Monk makes it, I don't consider the voting legit.

I guess Monk should have cowed out and said he wants to be removed from the process, ala Harry Carson last year.
Carl Banks, better than Carson? :confused: I love both, but Banks isnt even close to the player Carson was. More fun to watch, more flamboyant if you look for that - but only one of them hit OJ harder than any other LB... Carson. Ask some of the old Eagles RBs about how good Carson was.

 
Thurman Thomas got screwed. Plain and simple.
I thought he was more worthy than Moon, personally.
He was more deserving than Moon AND Carson. He was the best all-around RB for a 3-5 year period and one of the 3 best RBs over a 10 year period (behind only Smith and Sanders, 2 of the best ever). Carson? Give me freaking break. I guess if you ##### and whine about getting in, you can guilt trip the guys into getting you in. What a joke.
Did you ever watch Carson's teams?Carson was a better Linebacker than Thurman was a RB. And I really like Thurman, and believe he should be in the hall.

Carson was barely behind Singletary as the clear second best ILB of his generation. Even with LT along side him, there were many, MANY games where Harry Carson was the best player on the field. Either side.

It was a joke motivated by many political and other issues that kept Carson from the hall - and ask many, the football HoF process is one of the worst (and there are some issues with the others, mind you).

I find it hard to believe that someone who saw much of Carson play would have any issue with his induction, other than the fact that it took way, way too long.
Yes, I did see Carson play, although probably not as much as you. I do not think that most football fans would agree with you that Carson was a better LB than Thomas was a RB. I certainly don't.
 
The pro football hall of fame once again shows itself to be a complete joke.  Michael Irvin and Thurman Thomas were 10 times the football players that Moon or Carson were.  The hall of fame should be for great players, not good players that played a long time and compiled big stat lines IMO.  Warren Moon was never a great player and has no business in the hall of fame.
See above post about Carson. He was one of the top two players at his position for his era. Not sure what else you want.
He only made first team All Pro 2 times, along with second team All Pro 5 times. If your description of how great he was were true, I'd expect more.He played from 1976-1988. The HOF bio shows the All Pro awards above, but the only place I am aware of where you can see all of the All NFL teams is HERE, which does not show Carson ever making it. Clearly there is a problem with this source, but it shows these other ILBs/MLBs as making it during Carson's career:

Mike Singletary (6 times)

Jack Lambert (6)

Randy Gradishar (3)

Karl Mecklenburg (2)

Shane Conlan

Fredd Young

E.J. Junior

Bill Bergey

IMO it is clear that Lambert & Singletary were better. But it is not clear that Carson was better than Gradishar or Mecklenburg, neither of whom are in the HOF.

 
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The pro football hall of fame once again shows itself to be a complete joke.  Michael Irvin and Thurman Thomas were 10 times the football players that Moon or Carson were.  The hall of fame should be for great players, not good players that played a long time and compiled big stat lines IMO.  Warren Moon was never a great player and has no business in the hall of fame.
See above post about Carson. He was one of the top two players at his position for his era. Not sure what else you want.
He only made first team All Pro 2 times, along with second team All Pro 5 times. If your description of how great he was were true, I'd expect more.He played from 1976-1988. The HOF bio shows the All Pro awards above, but the only place I am aware of where you can see all of the All NFL teams is HERE, which does not show Carson ever making it. Clearly there is a problem with this source, but it shows these other ILBs/MLBs as making it during Carson's career:

Mike Singletary (6 times)

Jack Lambert (6)

Randy Gradishar (3)

Karl Mecklenburg (2)

Shane Conlan

Fredd Young

E.J. Junior

Bill Bergey

IMO it is clear that Lambert & Singletary were better. But it is not clear that Carson was better than Gradishar or Mecklenburg, neither of whom are in the HOF.
Singletary without question. Lambert would have to get the nod, but not by much. There is a huge gap imo between Carson and Mecklenberg.Being second to Singletary in all Pro is no shame, btw.

 
I'm sorry Koya, but Carson was not as good as you remember him. He got in this year because he acted like a #####. That's sad.

 
Montana lost when he left all the talent in San Fran.
Montana lost what?
As in he didn't win a championship...the thing that you need a talented team for (in football). This is what folks are bashing Moon for (and other QB's like Marino). There is a big difference between passing to Haywood Jeffries and Jerry Rice.
 
Once again, Art Monk gets totally screwed because of one man, Peter "I'm a total incomptent hack" King, who with his typical New York bias, refuses to vote for anyone from the Redskins of the 1980s. 
When the Pro Football Hall of Fame opens up the "stuck around for endless seasons compiling very average statistics" wing, then Art Monk will be a lock for enshrinement. :banned:
They already did. You weren't aware that Moon got in? If this guy dosen't play in the run and shoot and didn't put up artificially high stats for a couple years we are not even talking about him right now. I watched Moon a lot and I never recall thinking there was anything special about him. Anyone that is not just purely looking at end of career stats and actually watched him play knows that he was a good QB, but never special/great. IMO good players do not belong in the HOF. But, that is the point where we are at with the pro football HOF. Any HOF that has a minimum number of guys that must get in each year dosen't hold much weight.
First, Moon was a starter for 15 of his 17 seasons. He only played in the run-and-shoot for four seasons (1990-93).Sorry, but I think his longetivity was more of a factor to his high statistics than the R&S system. Either way, it's silly to say he has artificially high stats due to the R&S as he only played in it for 4 out of 17 seasons. But hey, don't let facts get in the way....
My point is that his stats are very ordinary the other years when he didn't play in the run and shoot. And I don't think guys should get in just becuase they played a long time and compiled large stat lines. No one in here has yet to come up with a great/signature Warren Moon game or moment. He was never great and I don't think merely good players should be in a HOF. Do you think he was a great player?
Are these stats ordinary for the following seasons NOT in the R&S?| Passing | Rushing |

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

| 1988 hou | 11 | 160 294 54.4 2327 7.9 17 8 | 33 88 5 |

| 1989 hou | 16 | 280 464 60.3 3631 7.8 23 14 | 70 268 4 |

| 1995 min | 16 | 377 606 62.2 4228 7.0 33 14 | 33 82 0 |

| 1997 sea | 15 | 313 528 59.3 3678 7.0 25 16 | 17 40 1 |

Again, those are numbers without a stud RB or WR. Most HOF QB's had more offensive help than Moon did.
:confused: :confused: :confused: A closer look at your four examples from above.

In '88 & '89, Moon threw to Duncan, Hill, Givens and Jeffires. Possibly the best quartet of WRs who were ever on the same field at the same time.

In 1995, Moon had Robert Smith as his RB. The same Robert Smith who led the NFC in rushing. He also has Cris Carter and Jake Reed as his receivers.

In 1997, Moon's primary RB was Chris Warren, who had a 1500+ yard season under his belt. That year, he also had Joey Galloway, who was a very dangerous WR.

Let's not make it sound like he was surrounded by the 1976 Buccaneers.
I never said Moon played with scrubs, but he didn't play with the HOF WR's and RB's like other championship winning QB's (at least the ones with HOF contention). All of the HOF QB's from Moons era that won titles had more offensive help than Moon. They had HOF WR's and RB's. Moon didn't. Please don't try to compare the help Moon had to players like Rice, Irvin, Emmit, Craig, T.Davis, S.Sharpe, etc.And if you think Duncan, Hill, Givens and Jeffries are the best WR's on the field at once, you didn't watch much Oilers football.

 
Once again, Art Monk gets totally screwed because of one man, Peter "I'm a total incomptent hack" King, who with his typical New York bias, refuses to vote for anyone from the Redskins of the 1980s.
When the Pro Football Hall of Fame opens up the "stuck around for endless seasons compiling very average statistics" wing, then Art Monk will be a lock for enshrinement. :banned:
They already did. You weren't aware that Moon got in? If this guy dosen't play in the run and shoot and didn't put up artificially high stats for a couple years we are not even talking about him right now. I watched Moon a lot and I never recall thinking there was anything special about him. Anyone that is not just purely looking at end of career stats and actually watched him play knows that he was a good QB, but never special/great. IMO good players do not belong in the HOF. But, that is the point where we are at with the pro football HOF. Any HOF that has a minimum number of guys that must get in each year dosen't hold much weight.
First, Moon was a starter for 15 of his 17 seasons. He only played in the run-and-shoot for four seasons (1990-93).Sorry, but I think his longetivity was more of a factor to his high statistics than the R&S system. Either way, it's silly to say he has artificially high stats due to the R&S as he only played in it for 4 out of 17 seasons. But hey, don't let facts get in the way....
My point is that his stats are very ordinary the other years when he didn't play in the run and shoot. And I don't think guys should get in just becuase they played a long time and compiled large stat lines. No one in here has yet to come up with a great/signature Warren Moon game or moment. He was never great and I don't think merely good players should be in a HOF. Do you think he was a great player?
Are these stats ordinary for the following seasons NOT in the R&S?| Passing | Rushing |

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

| 1988 hou | 11 | 160 294 54.4 2327 7.9 17 8 | 33 88 5 |

| 1989 hou | 16 | 280 464 60.3 3631 7.8 23 14 | 70 268 4 |

| 1995 min | 16 | 377 606 62.2 4228 7.0 33 14 | 33 82 0 |

| 1997 sea | 15 | 313 528 59.3 3678 7.0 25 16 | 17 40 1 |

Again, those are numbers without a stud RB or WR. Most HOF QB's had more offensive help than Moon did.
:confused: :confused: :confused: A closer look at your four examples from above.

In '88 & '89, Moon threw to Duncan, Hill, Givens and Jeffires. Possibly the best quartet of WRs who were ever on the same field at the same time.

In 1995, Moon had Robert Smith as his RB. The same Robert Smith who led the NFC in rushing. He also has Cris Carter and Jake Reed as his receivers.

In 1997, Moon's primary RB was Chris Warren, who had a 1500+ yard season under his belt. That year, he also had Joey Galloway, who was a very dangerous WR.

Let's not make it sound like he was surrounded by the 1976 Buccaneers.
I never said Moon played with scrubs, but he didn't play with the HOF WR's and RB's like other championship winning QB's (at least the ones with HOF contention). All of the HOF QB's from Moons era that won titles had more offensive help than Moon. They had HOF WR's and RB's. Moon didn't. Please don't try to compare the help Moon had to players like Rice, Irvin, Emmit, Craig, T.Davis, S.Sharpe, etc.And if you think Duncan, Hill, Givens and Jeffries are the best WR's on the field at once, you didn't watch much Oilers football.
I said they were the best FOURSOME on the field at the same time.Care to point out a better 4-wide set that you've seen?

 
Once again, Art Monk gets totally screwed because of one man, Peter "I'm a total incomptent hack" King, who with his typical New York bias, refuses to vote for anyone from the Redskins of the 1980s. 
When the Pro Football Hall of Fame opens up the "stuck around for endless seasons compiling very average statistics" wing, then Art Monk will be a lock for enshrinement. :banned:
They already did. You weren't aware that Moon got in? If this guy dosen't play in the run and shoot and didn't put up artificially high stats for a couple years we are not even talking about him right now. I watched Moon a lot and I never recall thinking there was anything special about him. Anyone that is not just purely looking at end of career stats and actually watched him play knows that he was a good QB, but never special/great. IMO good players do not belong in the HOF. But, that is the point where we are at with the pro football HOF. Any HOF that has a minimum number of guys that must get in each year dosen't hold much weight.
First, Moon was a starter for 15 of his 17 seasons. He only played in the run-and-shoot for four seasons (1990-93).Sorry, but I think his longetivity was more of a factor to his high statistics than the R&S system. Either way, it's silly to say he has artificially high stats due to the R&S as he only played in it for 4 out of 17 seasons. But hey, don't let facts get in the way....
My point is that his stats are very ordinary the other years when he didn't play in the run and shoot. And I don't think guys should get in just becuase they played a long time and compiled large stat lines. No one in here has yet to come up with a great/signature Warren Moon game or moment. He was never great and I don't think merely good players should be in a HOF. Do you think he was a great player?
Are these stats ordinary for the following seasons NOT in the R&S?| Passing | Rushing |

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

| 1988 hou | 11 | 160 294 54.4 2327 7.9 17 8 | 33 88 5 |

| 1989 hou | 16 | 280 464 60.3 3631 7.8 23 14 | 70 268 4 |

| 1995 min | 16 | 377 606 62.2 4228 7.0 33 14 | 33 82 0 |

| 1997 sea | 15 | 313 528 59.3 3678 7.0 25 16 | 17 40 1 |

Again, those are numbers without a stud RB or WR. Most HOF QB's had more offensive help than Moon did.
:confused: :confused: :confused: A closer look at your four examples from above.

In '88 & '89, Moon threw to Duncan, Hill, Givens and Jeffires. Possibly the best quartet of WRs who were ever on the same field at the same time.

In 1995, Moon had Robert Smith as his RB. The same Robert Smith who led the NFC in rushing. He also has Cris Carter and Jake Reed as his receivers.

In 1997, Moon's primary RB was Chris Warren, who had a 1500+ yard season under his belt. That year, he also had Joey Galloway, who was a very dangerous WR.

Let's not make it sound like he was surrounded by the 1976 Buccaneers.
I never said Moon played with scrubs, but he didn't play with the HOF WR's and RB's like other championship winning QB's (at least the ones with HOF contention). All of the HOF QB's from Moons era that won titles had more offensive help than Moon. They had HOF WR's and RB's. Moon didn't. Please don't try to compare the help Moon had to players like Rice, Irvin, Emmit, Craig, T.Davis, S.Sharpe, etc.And if you think Duncan, Hill, Givens and Jeffries are the best WR's on the field at once, you didn't watch much Oilers football.
I said they were the best FOURSOME on the field at the same time.Care to point out a better 4-wide set that you've seen?
I really can't. Then again, how often are 4 WR's on the field at once? Would you take that foursome over Rice, Taylor, Craig & Jones? What about Irvin, Harper, Novacek and Emmit? Rod Smith, Sharpe and T.Davis? Marino's WR's when he went to the SB? Holt, Bruce and Faulk? I didn't think so....

 
Once again, Art Monk gets totally screwed because of one man, Peter "I'm a total incomptent hack" King, who with his typical New York bias, refuses to vote for anyone from the Redskins of the 1980s.
When the Pro Football Hall of Fame opens up the "stuck around for endless seasons compiling very average statistics" wing, then Art Monk will be a lock for enshrinement. :banned:
They already did. You weren't aware that Moon got in? If this guy dosen't play in the run and shoot and didn't put up artificially high stats for a couple years we are not even talking about him right now. I watched Moon a lot and I never recall thinking there was anything special about him. Anyone that is not just purely looking at end of career stats and actually watched him play knows that he was a good QB, but never special/great. IMO good players do not belong in the HOF. But, that is the point where we are at with the pro football HOF. Any HOF that has a minimum number of guys that must get in each year dosen't hold much weight.
First, Moon was a starter for 15 of his 17 seasons. He only played in the run-and-shoot for four seasons (1990-93).Sorry, but I think his longetivity was more of a factor to his high statistics than the R&S system. Either way, it's silly to say he has artificially high stats due to the R&S as he only played in it for 4 out of 17 seasons. But hey, don't let facts get in the way....
My point is that his stats are very ordinary the other years when he didn't play in the run and shoot. And I don't think guys should get in just becuase they played a long time and compiled large stat lines. No one in here has yet to come up with a great/signature Warren Moon game or moment. He was never great and I don't think merely good players should be in a HOF. Do you think he was a great player?
Are these stats ordinary for the following seasons NOT in the R&S?| Passing | Rushing |

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |

+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+

| 1988 hou | 11 | 160 294 54.4 2327 7.9 17 8 | 33 88 5 |

| 1989 hou | 16 | 280 464 60.3 3631 7.8 23 14 | 70 268 4 |

| 1995 min | 16 | 377 606 62.2 4228 7.0 33 14 | 33 82 0 |

| 1997 sea | 15 | 313 528 59.3 3678 7.0 25 16 | 17 40 1 |

Again, those are numbers without a stud RB or WR. Most HOF QB's had more offensive help than Moon did.
:confused: :confused: :confused: A closer look at your four examples from above.

In '88 & '89, Moon threw to Duncan, Hill, Givens and Jeffires. Possibly the best quartet of WRs who were ever on the same field at the same time.

In 1995, Moon had Robert Smith as his RB. The same Robert Smith who led the NFC in rushing. He also has Cris Carter and Jake Reed as his receivers.

In 1997, Moon's primary RB was Chris Warren, who had a 1500+ yard season under his belt. That year, he also had Joey Galloway, who was a very dangerous WR.

Let's not make it sound like he was surrounded by the 1976 Buccaneers.
I never said Moon played with scrubs, but he didn't play with the HOF WR's and RB's like other championship winning QB's (at least the ones with HOF contention). All of the HOF QB's from Moons era that won titles had more offensive help than Moon. They had HOF WR's and RB's. Moon didn't. Please don't try to compare the help Moon had to players like Rice, Irvin, Emmit, Craig, T.Davis, S.Sharpe, etc.And if you think Duncan, Hill, Givens and Jeffries are the best WR's on the field at once, you didn't watch much Oilers football.
I said they were the best FOURSOME on the field at the same time.Care to point out a better 4-wide set that you've seen?
I really can't. Then again, how often are 4 WR's on the field at once? Would you take that foursome over Rice, Taylor, Craig & Jones? What about Irvin, Harper, Novacek and Emmit? Rod Smith, Sharpe and T.Davis? Marino's WR's when he went to the SB? Holt, Bruce and Faulk? I didn't think so....
:rolleyes: How 'bout naming 4 better WIDE RECEIVERS who played at the same time.

I didn't think so....

 

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