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These two posts nail it right on the head. This is why several of us have been on a tear about GM Jerry and the front of the house organization. They just ignore the gaps and issues with this team and this is why I call them the Chicago Cubs of the NFL. They sell tradition and they give you what they want. They give you enough to keep you engaged and if they manage to back into the playoffs- well that is just a little icing on the cake. They sell out and they have amped up sales of all things Chicago Bears- hats, sweaters, coolers, T-shirts etc etc. They make their money and they give you stale bread and circus. They cannot even put a decent field in place.Every now and then they hit on a few talents, Hester, Briggs, Urlacher, Forte and Cutler but overall they are a very average team stuck in the 70s style of football- win with defense and get off the bus running. They play it conservative and they are cheap and they are very unwise in how they "try" to build a modern NFL team. They will just throw it in your face that they have gone to a SB and hosted the NFCC in the past several years but they really are just a phony NFL organization. GB and Detroit are going to show us a few things this year. It sure was a long painful road for the Lions but they look to have the pieces in place to win for many years and GB will be a consistent winner with their bevy of receivers and an MVP caliber QB. It is interesting that you make mention of the 2 TE system that NE now uses. I thought the Bears turned the corner with Olsen and figured (incorrectly) that they were going to get out there and get another stud pass catching TE. What we were sold was a bill of goods that the offense needed a blocking TE. We saw that result yesterday and now the Bears have two playmakers on offense- Cutler and Forte and Cutler will never get anything done running for his life and the Bears want to hold steady on giving Forte the money he deserves. Consider that Forte puts up these type of numbers with the bottom of the NFL OL.In looking at a team like the Patriots, their strength is the OL and the DL. That OL is just amazing and it gives Brady the time to carve up elite defenses. This OL has been a solid foundation for NE across a decade now and here they are just reaping the benefits. They take players like Welker, Woodhead, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Branch and Brady- plug them into a system with an elite OL and they win and win and win.
Not really. The one thing I did find interesting was that in Lovie's presser today when asked about the lack of balance in the offensive play calling, he simply said "That will be corrected this week." - but then declined follow up questions. I have a feeling Mr. Martz is about to get "The Speech"...again. Like at the bye week last season.
Who did you want them to get?Sidney Rice-missed 2 weeks and is still injuredWillie Colon? Done for the seasonRobert Gallery? Missed week 1, now missing 4-6 weeksAt some point you have to accept who is on the Bears roster and be a FAN, not a HATER.
The season is under way so I say go Bears. I know that I am not a fan of the front of the house but it is the Packers. Anything can happen in the NFL and the Bears have played Rodgers well. It is rather early in the week but the team might be getting a few players back. It looks like Gabe will be OK but he is a month out. One thing is for certain, at week 3 of the season- this is a game that will determine the fate of the team for 2011 IMHO. A win brings them back and a loss here will bring out the pitchforks and burning torches if they lose like they did to the Saints.
I tend to overreact to the Bears. In my confidence pool I seldom put more than a few points one way or another on or against the Bears. When they win I think too highly of them, when they lose I am too down on them. But I think that what happened this week changed my expectations for the season. I see exactly the same problems they had last year. They did well last year, but they had no injuries, their schedule was softer. I think both the Packers and the Lions are better than they were last year. I will be pulling for the Bears, but I don't see the playoffs this year. They can't make the receivers better, and they can't teach Chris Williams or Webb to be better. They are who they are and we are stuck with them. But this is a good place to air your frustrations. It is a good place to vent.
Are really making the argument that players got injured on the teams that they went to, so they would've been injured with us too? Gotta be kidding me. Since you're trying to poke holes in everything I say, shouldn't you be aware of all of the FA's we missed out on, not Rice and Gallery? If you look back through this thread instead of making a million excuses for the problems on offense, you will see who I said we could've picked up. The trouble is a couple of you guys haven't kept up with the thread enough to know of any player mentioned, just blindly agreeing with management and telling me how all I do is whine. Our QB is going to continue getting killed and odds are he will be knocked out for a few games at this rate, at minimum. I'm sorry you can't see that. What will the excuses be then? We picked up everyone we could on OL? There were too many injuries? That doesn't fly in the NFL. Ask the Pack how injuries affected them last year. If that happened to the Bears, they wouldn't win five games. Step into reality. The window is closing on Urlacher and Briggs, and the bane of their existence has been the offense for all of these years. Two of the best linebackers in the league deserve more, but it's not happening. At this point, I'm sure Cutler regrets the day he ever signed with the Bears and believed all of their lies about them surrounding him with the weapons to succeed. Tell me who they have picked up since he's been here. One offensive lineman worth a damn in the draft. Nothing else worth crap, and they just traded away his most reliable receiver in Olsen for a freaking 3rd round pick. Now, he has no one to bail him out. Now, blow up this argument too. I know this team and the problems they have. Most others do too. As great as this defense is, if the offense continues at this rate, the defense doesn't stand a chance. If Lovie doesn't force Martz to start running the ball, Jay will get knocked out for the season again. All you have to do is look at Jay on the sidelines and in the post-game interview. He's sick and tired of it too, and I guarantee he doesn't want to hear about excuses why he's getting crushed. This is the last time I'm discussing this on here. We will have to agree to disagree on these points.
I can deal with being pessimistic if I'm saying what's true.
I don't think many think Jay is the problem at this point. Most just feel sorry for the guy. Jay is the man. He could have an lustrous career if given any help around here. Right, now he has Forte and a bunch of scrubs that wouldn't start on any other team.
Jay isn't so much of the problem as he is just not the answer. For 2 firsts, a third and a starting QB my standards are higher than 'average qb'.
Seriously?First off, don't hold it against Cutler that JA is an idiot and overpayed for him. Secondly, I would not call him an "average" QB - generally speaking, average QBs don't go to Pro Bowls in their 3rd season in the NFL (see, that was back when he played behind an NFL offensive line and had actual NFL WRs)
Literally too lazy to read another of your run ons in a huge paragraph'flapgreen said:
IMO you couldn't be more wrong, Jay Cutler is a very good QB and has the skillset to be elite. We both could be wrong, but IMO we haven't seen his potential yet. Maybe the best way to find out what a QB has is to have him learn a new offensive scheme his first two years with the team, surround him with mediocre WR talent, and field an O-line that gets him hit like a pinata every season while ignoring the running game. I'm guessing it's not.'tenaka said:
Sorry Stats, but I gotta do this. I actually agree with this 100%. 7 step drops when you have bad tackles (i.e. after Carimi left the lineup) is magnifying the weakness. Not only does the QB need more time, but the DE's speed rush the two slow tackles right to the spot where he is dropping to. Basically (as happened several timesin the 4th quarter) as soon as Cutler gets to the top of his drop 1 if not both DEs are there to meet him. At least if you 3 step once in a while, the tackles can just protect against the inside rush and let the DEs try to go wide.Incidentally, DEs getting faster and faster is part of the reason many offenses use the 3 step to begin with. Martz is kinda fighting against the evolution of the game as it is - doing it with weak tackles and not mixing in enough run is a "recipe for disssssasterrrr."
The other part that doesn't make sense is Tice likes bigger OL. Bigger OL would be better in shorter drops vs deep drops. The other thing bigger OL help out in is the RUN game, they should get more push.Now i'm a QB guy(only position i've coached for 6 years) so getting deep drops is okay, as long as the QB has a spot to step up into. But in Chicago that's an issue as well.
Pretty much what I expected.
You can't do that!1!1
Imo, average QBs play to the level of the talent around them. Great QBs elevate it. Cutler hasn't elevated anyone, unless these guys would get cut from a high school team. I fully admit that Jay Cutler would do very well in a skills competition or the punt/pass/kick contest. Those things don't win NFL games though. I see him routinely getting hit by unblocked defenders. Its his job to recognize the blitz at the line and call out the protection. A lot of the time he doesn't read the defense well, and this on top of his questionable decisionmaking in general.To DoubleG - Orton also would have gone to the pro bowl had he not gotten injured with that same Denver offense (minus stud Brandon Marshall). So I'm not really impressed with Jay's lone pro bowl appearance. It more proves that a great line and receivers is going to make anyone look good at least temporarily.
IMO you don't know anything about a Martz run offense - especially one that can't block. Martz went back to his playcalling from last year that nearly got Cutler killed against the Saints. He wants the QB to stand in there and absorb hits because he has them oftentimes take huge drops to allow for a receiver to get open. Cutler made great reads against the Falcons and took what the defense gave him. He got killed against the Saints because the Bears O line couldn't block anyone. He does take some unnecessary hits every now and then but I think most of the hits he takes are not because he doesn't recognize the blitz. I also think you underestimate the garbage that the Bears have at wide receiver. The 3rd and 4th WRs on the Packers are better than the Bears. Many of Cutler's interceptions last year were squarely on the receiver not being in the right place. The Hester experiment is a joke! He does not have the instincts to ever be a top receiver.Cutler still needs to develop but he can be a much better QB than he has shown so far. I don't know if he is a top tiered QB and doubt he will ever be mistaken for Brady, Rodgers, Manning, Brees, or Rivers but I think he should be in that next tier of QBs (6-10) which isn't bad.
This problem is that he will never have the chance to develop in an offense like this one. Unless something changes drastically, he will be no more than an average QB. If they actually surround him with some decent talent, I think he could be top 10 at least, maybe even higher. There's no way to know, though.
If we're talking about FF numbers, in 2008 when he played with the Broncos, Cutler finished as QB3 (Brees was first and Cutler was 2 fantasy points behind Aaron Rodgers in my league - which is fairly standard scoring) - ahead of guys like Rivers, Manning (both), Warner, Favre, Romo, etc.But I am sure he is "just average".This problem is that he will never have the chance to develop in an offense like this one. Unless something changes drastically, he will be no more than an average QB. If they actually surround him with some decent talent, I think he could be top 10 at least, maybe even higher. There's no way to know, though.
Also, Cutler was sacked 11 times in the entire 2008, the same amount of times he has been sacked in the first 2 weeks of this season, but he's been just as much to blame as the OL and WR's over the last 2 seasons. Sure.If we're talking about FF numbers, in 2008 when he played with the Broncos, Cutler finished as QB3 (Brees was first and Cutler was 2 fantasy points behind Aaron Rodgers in my league - which is fairly standard scoring) - ahead of guys like Rivers, Manning (both), Warner, Favre, Romo, etc.But I am sure he is "just average".This problem is that he will never have the chance to develop in an offense like this one. Unless something changes drastically, he will be no more than an average QB. If they actually surround him with some decent talent, I think he could be top 10 at least, maybe even higher. There's no way to know, though.
I'd say making the Pro Bowl and setting numerous single season passing records during his last season in Denver was progression. No? Then he came to Chicago and everything went down the ####ter.
I'm not the one saying he "still needs to develop". That was your comment. I'm asking you to defend it. Now you're saying he already has developed?
Your comments show your ignorance. That What was the Bears record last year? How many games were they away from the Super bowl? Do you know how many times Vanderbilt has had a winning record in the last 20 years? Once or Twice? It is not a football powerhouse and you can't expect 1 player to make them elite when the other college teams are stacked with top players. When Steve Young went to the Bucs and had no talent around him I think he never won anything. Troy Aikman got killed when he had no line. I never saw Archie Manning play but was told he was actually a great QB with awful talent around him and never won. Jay Cutler has been roughly a .500 QB most of the years he has been in the league. He definitely deserves blame for not working on his mechanics enough (which he finally acknowledged) due to his immaturity. He also was a jerk to John Elway who was trying to help him develop although in the Tebow thread people were making silly comments about how he wants everyone to fail because he wants to remain the top dog in Denver. If a team does not have a good line on either side of the ball they will usually lose. The Bears offensive line has been absolutely pathetic. If you want to question that then I don't think you have watched any Bears games. They do not have a #1 WR which has been discussed ad nauseum in this thread. From your post you state that he does not make the players better around him better and therefore isn't a winner. I think you underestimate just how bad the talent is around him other than Forte. Most top teams have a #1 bailout wr who can go 1 on 1 and win a matchup consistently. Greg Williams system is built on pressure and taking away the hot read. With no protection and no #1 WR got Cutler plastered yesterday. I can think of a few instances where he held the ball too long and took unnecessary shots but for the most part he was running for his life. You could Brady, Rodgers, Manning, etc. and they couldn't have done anything last Sunday either. Two reasons he is still developing after 6 seasons is because he started working on his mechanics late (his fault entirely) and is constantly running for his life which makes it hard to get comfortable and progress through your reads.
You also forgot to mention is amazing group of WRs. Last season he took an undersized, 5th round draft pick for a small school and turned him into an (almost) 1000 yard WR (which IMHO, also addresses the whole "makes players around him better" argument). The other receivers he has are:- a "Number One WR" - who is a converted DB and has never played WR at any level prior to 3 years ago (who is also undersized)
The bolded part - let me get this straight - the 29th pick of the draft, with no TC to speak of is playing better than several guys with much more experience, including a former first rounder? If that doesn't tell you how bad this line really is...ruh roh.Mike Martz better learn to run the ball and call 3 step drops... either that or he better have about 6 QBs activated for the Packer game.
The Cutler hate gets so old. Name one Bears QB in the past 25 years that, in his prime, you'd rather have than Cutler.'Statcruncher said:
Why would Martz change now? After the success of the team during the last half of the season, he's reverted back to his old way already. If he hasn't learned yet, I don't see why he would now, unless Lovie takes over and forces him to. "The offensive wizard!"
Anyone would be "average" in this offense, except for the the top 3-5 guys.
For Frank Omygod, if the defense sent 1, that would be 1 more than he could block. The only reason he's playing is because Carimi's hurt and Williams didn't pan out. Dude got beat out by Webb - who was drafted in the 478th round. (okay the round is a slight exaggeration). Frank Omygod should spend less time talking and more time working on technique - and NOT false starting.If all people calling out Cutler, it's his on lineman, the worst one."You don't want to take those (sacks) on the blitz," Omiyale said. "When the defense brings one more than you can (block), sometimes you've just got to get it out or get rid of it." lol
He had two false starts in the fourth quarter, no? You've just got to get rid of the ball before the false start. Eh, Omelete? I can't believe this loser ever made it back to the starting lineup. This is a travesty and an embarrassment.For Frank Omygod, if the defense sent 1, that would be 1 more than he could block. The only reason he's playing is because Carimi's hurt and Williams didn't pan out. Dude got beat out by Webb - who was drafted in the 478th round. (okay the round is a slight exaggeration). Frank Omygod should spend less time talking and more time working on technique - and NOT false starting.If all people calling out Cutler, it's his on lineman, the worst one.
I would but everyone will just disagree anyway. I'm apparently not allowed to have a different opinion of Cutler than other people. Its not enough to just disagree. I have to have 'not watched the game' and 'not understand football' or 'not know anything about the Martz offense'.The king of turds is still a turd.
No one said you couldn't have a different opinion of Cutler, but please be prepared to engage in a discussion about. I seldom blindly accepting other people's opinions even if they're as well thought out as "king of turds". Likewise, you'd be foolish to blindly accept my assertions. A civil discussion with differing viewpoints is not a traumatic thing, no need to take your ball and go home.Your point about it being all 3 is valid. No one knows exactly where the problems are. Play calling, WR's, o-line, and QB have all been called out. Of those factors I would rank them in order of biggest problem to least as:
