What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

*** 2013 NFL Scouting Combine Thread *** (3 Viewers)

I believe he didn't run deep routes at Cal because he doesn't have the speed to get behind people. The fact that he's not a threat with the ball in his hands shows up in bright neon in his collegiate stats. Plus, reports out of IMG say he doesn't look like anything special. And now we don't get an accurate time at the combine. Anyone drafting Allen gets what they deserve. He's a bust waiting to happen.
I think this is another case where looking at the numbers isn't going to give you a totally accurate picture of the player. I don't know exactly what stats you're using in your formulas, but it seems like there is an emphasis on yards per catch. The problem with that stat is that it's going to depend a lot on the player's usage. If you look at Robert Woods at USC, he has a very low yards per catch. That's not because he's slow. He was actually a very good prep sprinter here in California with near world class times in the 400. He can run. His yards per catch is low (at least in part) because USC throws a ton of bubble screens.With Allen, he was basically used as a slot receiver. Slot receivers tend to have lower yards per catch averages. Welker and Cobb for example. That doesn't mean he lacks playmaking ability. Allen is a local guy and I have seen him play live each of the last three seasons. He has been Cal's best offensive player throughout that time. They line him up all over the place, move him around, and basically do whatever they can to get the ball in his hands. During his freshman season they even did some wildcat stuff with him as their quarterback. Here he is doing his
Allen does have some legitimate question marks. He's tall, but not that strong. He's athletic, but his long speed is average or worse. He is not going to wow anyone at his pro day. He's not what I would call an explosive player. However, he is a dangerous player on the field. I don't know that he's ever going to be a star in the NFL, but I'll be extremely surprised if he's a bust. I actually think he has one of the highest floors in this class.
 
Fair questions EBF, I'll try to answer...

I generate a metric for collegiate production that's centered around zero, after some adjustments for things that influence production -- but aren't related to footballing skill. I think of as an attempt to isolate 'vision', but that's not exactly right either. Football sense maybe? Awareness of time and space with 21 other bodies moving around you? All of the above? However you want to think about it, it relates to playmaking. All the size and speed in the world won't help you in the NFL without it.

Whatever it is, it's very unusual for anyone to be successful with a score below zero. Small school guys are the usual exception (Colston, Cruz). Plus some players whose size/speed/explosion is just otherworldly (Chris Chambers, Julio Jones, Cruz again). There are two or three other players, but the point is that it's really uncommon.

So the scores for the guys you mentioned are:

Crabtree +8.4

Blackmon +7.7

Allen (-4.2)

Allen's not even in the ballpark.

Maybe he's bigger than he's listed in which case you could pin your hopes on someone like Eric Decker or Jordy Nelson. But even then I get nervous when just about the only guys that succeeded with a similar profile are playing as NFL #2s in insanely good passing offenses. Lots of averageish players would look good there.

Whatever. Having taken the time to develop models that work I try to stick to them. I don't want my own judgement (or lack of it) involved in my decisions any more than required. People are notoriously crappy decision-makers and everyone believes they're better at things than they really are. Even accounting for the things in my models I haven't been able to resolve or that I know could be better if I had more statistical chops, I'm sure I believe I'm a better model builder than I am! But at least I'm looking for ways to make objective decisions and what I'm saying is what the model tells me. It's still somewhat subjective, but it's not opinion.

Where I get myself in trouble with stuff is that even though I think probabilistically, I get carried away and talk with too much certainty. Could be this is one of those times? Yeah -- probably.

Having said all that, barring some new information I don't think the risk/reward on Allen justifies a high pick -- for the NFL or for fantasy.

 
Fair enough. Maybe you're right. I don't think Allen is ever going to be Brandon Marshall or Larry Fitzgerald, but I'll stand by my statement that he has one of the highest floors of any skill player in this draft. I just don't see a huge bust risk. I think he has that ability like Crabtree/Blackmon/Cobb to run sharp routes and instinctively make people miss, so I find it strange that your formulas have him as a dud in this category. I already posted this, but IMO the field view really gives you a sense for his vision and elusiveness.

ability to make set people up and make cuts like this is something that's hard to gauge with combine numbers, physical measurements, and stats. I think that's why players like Boldin, Crabtree, and McCoy who excel in part because they have this characteristic don't necessarily stand out on paper.
 
Fair questions EBF, I'll try to answer...

I generate a metric for collegiate production that's centered around zero, after some adjustments for things that influence production -- but aren't related to footballing skill. I think of as an attempt to isolate 'vision', but that's not exactly right either. Football sense maybe? Awareness of time and space with 21 other bodies moving around you? All of the above? However you want to think about it, it relates to playmaking. All the size and speed in the world won't help you in the NFL without it.

Whatever it is, it's very unusual for anyone to be successful with a score below zero. Small school guys are the usual exception (Colston, Cruz). Plus some players whose size/speed/explosion is just otherworldly (Chris Chambers, Julio Jones, Cruz again). There are two or three other players, but the point is that it's really uncommon.

So the scores for the guys you mentioned are:

Crabtree +8.4

Blackmon +7.7

Allen (-4.2)

Allen's not even in the ballpark.

Maybe he's bigger than he's listed in which case you could pin your hopes on someone like Eric Decker or Jordy Nelson. But even then I get nervous when just about the only guys that succeeded with a similar profile are playing as NFL #2s in insanely good passing offenses. Lots of averageish players would look good there.

Whatever. Having taken the time to develop models that work I try to stick to them. I don't want my own judgement (or lack of it) involved in my decisions any more than required. People are notoriously crappy decision-makers and everyone believes they're better at things than they really are. Even accounting for the things in my models I haven't been able to resolve or that I know could be better if I had more statistical chops, I'm sure I believe I'm a better model builder than I am! But at least I'm looking for ways to make objective decisions and what I'm saying is what the model tells me. It's still somewhat subjective, but it's not opinion.

Where I get myself in trouble with stuff is that even though I think probabilistically, I get carried away and talk with too much certainty. Could be this is one of those times? Yeah -- probably.

Having said all that, barring some new information I don't think the risk/reward on Allen justifies a high pick -- for the NFL or for fantasy.
Are you using career totals or final season totals?DeSean Jackson had a lower YPR his final season (11.7) at Cal than Keenan Allen did (12.1). Both of their QBs' YPA those years were 6.8 and 7.5 respectively.

Does your model take into account a WR's QB performance?

 
Combine Medical Spotlight: Marcus LattimoreEarly reports are promising with Dr. Andrews saying Lattimore is three months ahead of schedule -- and he's only 3 1/2 months into rehab. Lots more hype to come on Lattimore I think.
:goodposting: Jene,What are your thoughts on the following:Excerpt from the NFP Draft Rumblings article:
1. Knile Davis, RB, Arkansas, Junior (6000 E, 226 E and 4.45 E): Much attention has been on running back Marcus Lattimore’s recovery from his knee injury, but two years ago Knile Davis was viewed as a premier prospect on the same level as Lattimore. While Davis’ struggles to stay healthy and protect the ball are real issues that will keep him from being a very high draft pick, we hear that he is a player that many teams believe still has star potential. Unlike most 220+ pounds backs, Davis is natural catching the ball, is a dangerous open field runner who can make tacklers miss and can out-run angles to score long touchdowns. During draft meetings, scouts and coaches alike have raved about Davis’ quick cutting ability, burst of acceleration and home run hitting speed. Obviously, Davis’ leg/ankle that was injured two years ago will need to pass medical tests and he must try and convince teams he will do what it takes to overcome the fumbling issues he had at Arkansas, but with his upside we’ve been told he could be drafted significantly higher, possibly in the second or third round, than many expect.
 
Four offensive skill position players who need a strong Combine

Russ Lande

1. Le’Veon Bell, RB, Michigan State, Junior (6020 E, 237 E and 4.65 E): A punishing and physical ball carrier, Bell has shown the ability to wear down opposing defenses with surprising ease. The question is does he have enough quickness and athleticism to carry over his production to the NFL. Based on film evaluation, Bell is much more of a smooth and fluid athlete, but not a quick twitch one. While he has the jumping ability, balance and coordination to hurdle low tackles and the playing strength to easily run through attempted tackles to gain yards after contact, the concern is that he lacks the explosive burst and playing speed necessary to be a productive starter in the NFL. He does not have the speed to get the corner on his own and cannot change directions and explode in other direction fast enough to bounce runs outside against the speed of the NFL. Perhaps most alarming to NFL personnel is Bell’s inconsistent aggressiveness running with the ball on inside runs, which is vital for any power back to be successful in the NFL. In the end, Bell needs to handle the interviews well, but more important prove to teams that he is an explosive athlete if he wants to avoid being a third day draft pick.

2. Chris Harper, WR, Kansas State, Senior (6010, 231 and 4.41): Highly productive at Kansas State and possessing the hands, playing speed and receiving skills of an NFL starter, Harper just needs to continue his strong spring to cement a spot in the second round. While he has a productive receiver at Kansas State, his overall production suffered due to inconsistent quarterback play. When he got the chance to catch passes from better passers at the Senior Bowl, he stood out and looked/played a lot like Ravens’ receiver Anquan Boldin did at Florida State. Very sharp and precise in his route running, Harper has deceptive quickness and technique getting out his cuts to gain separation. Great concentration and soft, natural hands help Harper to catch every pass thrown his way and made one great catch after another throughout his college career and down in Mobile. Harper needs to prove to NFL teams that he has the quickness and burst that has been tough to consistently find on film if he hopes to be a second round pick.

3. Justin Hunter, WR, Tennessee, Junior (6040 E, 200 E and 4.40 E): A player who jumped off the film when I evaluated his play in 2011, Hunter must prove he can return to his previous level of play if he wants to be drafted in the first two rounds. Prior to his knee injury in 2011, Hunter’s play was incredible and reminded me, along with other NFL personnel I have spoken with, of Randy Moss. Blessed with great length, hands and natural speed, Hunter’s competitiveness both going up to catch contested passes and running after the catch helped him stand out from other receivers. Justin Hunter’s case reminds me a lot of former Bills’ star receiver Lee Evans who looked like a star and likely Top 10 pick as a junior at Wisconsin, but after his knee injury he looked like a shadow of his former self as a senior (Although Evans displayed the consistency catching the ball, toughness catching passes in traffic and great competitiveness as a Senior) in terms of explosiveness, speed and big play ability. So although, Hunter’s struggles catching the ball and maintaining a high level of competitiveness in 2012 make me doubt he will ever return to his pre-injury form, the possibility cannot be discounted and the Combine provides him with an opportunity to prove he will if he works out well and his medical checks turns out just fine.

4. Vance McDonald, TE, Rice, Senior (6041, 262 and 4.75 E): In a year with many athletic, big play tight ends, McDonald is not well known and is right there with the best of the tight ends in terms of physical talent. At the Senior Bowl Vance made it look easy getting open and catching passes with soft, natural hands. Although he is big and strong like Gronkowski, teams have been impressed more with his sharp routes and ability to adjust and make tough catches, not so much with his brute size and speed. It is not likely that McDonald will jump over either of the top tight ends, but a strong Combine could put him on position to be a high 2nd round pick. There are a number of good tight ends in the NFL, but the one whom McDonald seems to play the most like is the Cowboys Jason Witten and I believe he has that type of upside. However, he needs to prove to the teams that he has the quickness, burst and speed to be a play-making receiving tight end if he wants to be chosen in the first 64 picks.
 
Top 10: The most intriguing players at the combine

By Bruce Feldman | Senior College Football Columnist

I'm heading to Indianapolis on Tuesday as NFL Draft season kicks into high gear this week with the combine. Here are the 10 guys I'm most intrigued to see how their stock goes between now and late April. (NOTE: This isn't meant to be a combine version of the Freaks list.)

1. Tyrann Mathieu, LSU, DB-KR: The guy formerly known as the "Honey Badger" almost won the Heisman in 2011 but then had all sorts of off-field problems and missed the 2012 season. Mathieu's lack of size (5-foot-8, 180 pounds) was always going to be a concern for most folks. Now you factor in some character question marks, and you have a prospect who probably doesn't go in the first 100 picks. He'd be a small corner, but skill-wise, he's not really a pure cover man. But he is super quick and instinctive. Above all, Mathieu is fearless with an uncanny knack for making big plays, whether those are picks, forced fumbles or sacks. In 26 games at LSU, he created an astounding 14 turnovers, and that was in his first two seasons in the program -- a time when few blue-chippers at LSU are even on the two-deep.

Teams that scouted LSU pegged Mathieu as a SAM linebacker more than anything else because of the way that the Tigers used him.

He's also a dynamic return man, averaging almost 16 yards a punt return. Watch the tape of him from late during his freshman year or in 2011, and he seems to be playing at a different speed than everyone else on the field -- at the highest level of college football.

It'll be interesting to see how he tests. He's one of those guys who plays much faster than he has been timed. (Tennessee once opted for another short DB, Nickell Robey, over Mathieu in large part because of the Louisiana native's underwhelming 40-time at the Vols' summer camp.)

The 20-year-old's probably more suited to safety although he doesn't have the heft to hold up to be an every-down player, but we've seen enough of him to think he still could be a difference-maker in the right situation if he can handle things off the field.

2. Geno Smith, West Virginia, QB: At one point last season, the Mountaineers were the most talked about team in the country as Smith piled up an eye-catching 24-0 TD-INT ratio. But then mid-October came, and things fell apart for WVU. The Mountaineers dropped five in a row, and Smith, whom some draft analysts were touting as the No. 1 overall pick, fell off the Heisman radar.

Many of those same draft analysts are now saying he might not even go in the first round.

Still, despite what many will feel was a down season, Smith completed a career-best 71 percent of his passes and produced a gaudy 42-6 TD-INT mark. And, at 6-foot-3, 225-pounds, Smith has the prototype size that the scouts covet and really good athleticism.

Jake Spavital, who coached first-round pick QB Brandon Weeden at Oklahoma State, was Smith's quarterback coach the past two seasons. Spavital predicts the Miami native is going to turn some heads and impress scouts in Indy.

"Weeden's got that really quick release, but Geno's got a hose, too," said Spavital, praising Smith's footwork and sense of anticipation. "He can make that field comeback throw and every other throw you want. The things that I don't think people give him enough credit for are his ball skills with all the play-action stuff.

"He's got big hands, is really smooth and can sell the play-action a lot longer. He can play in any system, and he'd flourish. I know he's going to run well, probably a lot faster than most people think, and coaches will see how football-smart he is."

3. Manti Te'o, Notre Dame, LB: The most celebrated player in college football in 2012, Te'o scarfed up a truckload of individual awards but since then has had a rough couple of months. His team got blown out by Alabama in the BCS title game, and Te'o looked overmatched. Then came word of the hoax with his much-talked-about dead girlfriend, which figures to get plenty of talk again this week in Indy.

My hunch is Te'o won't have too much trouble addressing that with scouts and the media. The shock of the story has passed, and Te'o and his handlers have had plenty of time and now experience to address things.

On the field is where things get more intriguing. Long-time NFL personnel man Pat Kirwan, now an analyst at CBSSports.com, said after watching the Bama debacle that he went back and studied Te'o in other games.

"The Stanford game raised as many questions as answers," Kirwan wrote. "He is aggressive, but he struggles to disengage. It almost seems like he has to come downhill so fast just to beat the blocker to the point of attack or he's tied up. He takes chances trying to make plays, and it doesn't always work out. At times, he reminded me of when Junior Seau first came in the NFL. At other times, he would overplay a run and miss the tackle. There was a lack of awareness in zone coverages at times when he didn't 'feel' the receiver in his zone.

"I had some concerns about how often he leaves his feet to make a tackle and miss. He needs to be in a 4-3 defense, and the middle may be too much traffic for him to sift through to make plays."

4. Alec Ogletree, Georgia, LB: He left Athens early after a productive 2012 season for a Bulldog D that seemed to underachieve a little. From an on-field standpoint, many see Ogletree as a top-15 pick thanks to his excellent range and ability to change direction. But his off-field issues are scaring some folks.

While at UGA, he was suspended for four games for an offseason drug test. Then there was last week's news that Ogletree got a DUI recently. He also had a freshman-year arrest for stealing a scooter helmet. Is that too much of a pattern of dubious behavior to chase off some teams?

The Atlanta Journal Constitution reported the monetary difference between being the No. 8 pick and the No. 23 pick last season was $4.5 million. To say a lot is on the line for Ogletree would be a big understatement.

5. Justin Hunter, Tennessee, WR: Lots of people are buzzing about the Vols' big, freak of a wideout who scared SEC defenses, but UT actually has two tall, long, freaky wide receivers. Cordarrelle Patterson, the former JC star touted as a top-20 pick, and Hunter, a 6-foot-4 former track star who had to overcome an ACL injury that sidelined him in 2011 and has some projecting as only a third-rounder.

Don't be shocked if Hunter puts on a show in Indy. While at UT, Hunter was timed at 4.42 electronically, had broad-jumped over 11 feet and vertical jumped 41.5 inches. As a track athlete, he has high jumped 7-3 and long jumped more than 26 feet. Coaches who were at UT during Hunter's time there praise his character and expect him to shine when he meets with NFL teams, too.

6. David Amerson , NC State, CB: He went from being an All-American in 2011 after making 13 INTs to a forgotten prospect not far into the 2012 season. A shaky performance against the Vols' dangerous group of receivers in the opener didn't help, but I expect Amerson to create some buzz again when scouts eyeball him. This is a 6-2, 200-pound corner who could crack 4.4 in Indy and get some folks excited again.



7. Jesse Williams, Alabama, DT: If there's a guy with a good chance to set a combine record, the Tide's big man from Brisbane, Australia, might be the one to do it in the bench press. Arguably the strongest man in college football, Williams' 600-pound bench press became legendary in SEC circles, but he's also pretty nimble for a 325-pounder. Some suspect he might run a sub-5.1 40 in Indy.

8. Tavon Austin, WVU, WR-KR: This might be the quickest guy in Indy this week. Austin destroyed some teams loaded with good athletes, showing he could rise to the challenge in big matchups. He ate people up for two seasons on WVU's version of the Fly Sweep, but he did a lot more than just that.

Austin once had 344 yards rushing in a game against Oklahoma. In 2011, he had 11 catches for almost 200 yards against an LSU D loaded with NFL talent.

It'll be interesting to see how fast he times in the 40. Some inside the WVU program joked that he never ran it before so they wondered if he would clock as fast as he plays. The film will tell you this guy plays like someone with 4.2 wheels. But if he doesn't crack 4.45, will that give some teams pause given his lack of size? My hunch is probably not, considering his change of direction and shuttle times should end up wowing any skeptics by the end of the week.

9. Denard Robinson, Michigan, WR-RB-KR: One of the greatest players in the Wolverines' storied history is ready to move on to the NFL. Robinson should run in the 4.3s and has a strong enough frame to make you think he can be a factor as a slot receiver in the NFL. Some have worried about his hands, though. Those drills will be the ones that everyone is going to want to study in Indy.

10. John Simon, Ohio State, DL-OLB: Urban Meyer and seemingly every other coach who has been around this guy raves about his motor and toughness. Simon, the Big Ten's Defensive Player of the Year, is a guy who figures to have a shot at benching 225 in the 40s.

He's also pretty explosive off the bench, having broad-jumped 10 feet and, according to OSU strength staff, has clocked in the 4.6s in the 40 despite weighing 270 pounds. A shoulder injury, which kept him out of the Senior Bowl, is something that is worth monitoring. A bigger question will be whether he's seen as stiff when it comes to positional drills as team project where he'll play at the next level.
 
Safety is ridiculously deep. This was a good year to not have a first, and yet need major secondary help, Skins. Whew.

 
As far as Patterson goes, I just think it's funny that a guy who is touted as a dominant prospect wasn't even dominant in college. I don't put that much stock in college production, but it's not irrelevant either. I expect more than one 100+ yard game in a season from a guy who is touted as the best WR in his draft class. You can look at just about any other WR prospect in this draft who figures to go in the top 60, and they were all more productive catching the ball.
I just wrote about this in Patterson's thread, but if you've got a WR being rated as highly as other WRs who were far more "productive" in terms of numbers by teams and scouts, that should tell you something. There must be something else that's making him on equal footing with these other guys that were more productive. If you're going by production numbers, Patterson would be drafted far below these guys. All else being equal, give me the least productive guy given similar draft positions because it means there's something they REALLY like that's bumping him up.
 
I posted this in the IDP thread but some may have an interest in it since it combine related. Keep in mind that I'm a complete amateur but I just finished my first part of a Pass Rusher study that is completely driven by non-subjective metrics.

https://docs.google....cO2KclaC-OY/pub

Once the combine wraps up, I'm going to include this year's guys in it and see where they stand.....looking for the next great pass rusher.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I must be color blind. Could you please show those to me?
They threw him the ball a lot. He didn't do very much with it once it got to him.
You have confirmed that you have not watched him play, nor have an understanding between not having great deep speed versus being good after the catch. A. boldin camparison he is drawing is because he does stuff after catching the ball, but is not a consistent long play treat. Pretty much people who watched Allen play largely think he is excellent with the ball in his hands.Here is Matt Waldman for example. This goes on about his ability to separate, but starts with extreme compliments about him withthe ball in his hands. http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/04/03/cal-wr-keenan-allen-creating-separation-with-his-hands/
:thumbup:
 
Top 10: The most intriguing players at the combine

By Bruce Feldman | Senior College Football Columnist

6. David Amerson , NC State, CB: He went from being an All-American in 2011 after making 13 INTs to a forgotten prospect not far into the 2012 season. A shaky performance against the Vols' dangerous group of receivers in the opener didn't help, but I expect Amerson to create some buzz again when scouts eyeball him. This is a 6-2, 200-pound corner who could crack 4.4 in Indy and get some folks excited again.
Interesting prospect for sure. In 2011, he could do nothing wrong. In 2012, he could do nothing right. I don't imagine he will run anywhere close to 4.4 otherwise it can't be explained why Patterson was continually running by him.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
As far as Patterson goes, I just think it's funny that a guy who is touted as a dominant prospect wasn't even dominant in college. I don't put that much stock in college production, but it's not irrelevant either. I expect more than one 100+ yard game in a season from a guy who is touted as the best WR in his draft class. You can look at just about any other WR prospect in this draft who figures to go in the top 60, and they were all more productive catching the ball.
I just wrote about this in Patterson's thread, but if you've got a WR being rated as highly as other WRs who were far more "productive" in terms of numbers by teams and scouts, that should tell you something. There must be something else that's making him on equal footing with these other guys that were more productive. If you're going by production numbers, Patterson would be drafted far below these guys. All else being equal, give me the least productive guy given similar draft positions because it means there's something they REALLY like that's bumping him up.
It would be interesting to go back and look at how production and draft position predict NFL success. Off the top of my head there have been some big busts on either end. Using this approach, you'd conclude that the relatively unproductive Darrius Heyward-Bey must be a better prospect than the ultra productive Michael Crabtree because he was picked higher despite worse stats. You'd conclude that Ted Ginn must be the best WR in his draft to get picked high despite bad stats. You would have been all over Matt Jones, Donte Stallworth, and Troy Williamson. To be fair, you'd also have some hits like Chad Johnson and Percy Harvin. Overall though, I don't really know if this approach would win more often than it would lose.In my opinion one of the reliable mistakes that NFL teams make is to look at guys who have some of the physical tools on paper and assume that they can craft them into productive players. This is how guys like Jake Locker, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Stephen Hill, Kyle Boller, Chris Henry (RB), Tyrone Calico, and Jerome Simpson end up being high picks even though they aren't actually good at football. They have some standout physical tools, and scouts and coaches get hung up on those things and assume that they can fill in the gaps. This kind of prospect throws up a big red flag for me.

I don't know that Patterson is one of those guys, but he fits the profile. If I end up taking him in any leagues, it will be because I'm convinced that he has a skill set that will translate, not because NFL teams saw a physical specimen and thought they could mold him into a productive wideout. With Patterson, the fact that he was productive rushing and returning kicks is a plus. And he has a partial excuse for his modest production because it was his first year playing major D1 college football. Then again, Tennessee had Justin Hunter to pull away attention and a QB who averaged 8+ YPA and threw the ball more than anyone in the conference.

I rank him high based on upside and the fact that there are no obvious great prospects in this draft to take ahead of him, but he is a boom-or-bust prospect in my view.

 
I must be color blind. Could you please show those to me?
They threw him the ball a lot. He didn't do very much with it once it got to him.
You have confirmed that you have not watched him play, nor have an understanding between not having great deep speed versus being good after the catch. A. boldin camparison he is drawing is because he does stuff after catching the ball, but is not a consistent long play treat. Pretty much people who watched Allen play largely think he is excellent with the ball in his hands.Here is Matt Waldman for example. This goes on about his ability to separate, but starts with extreme compliments about him withthe ball in his hands. http://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2012/04/03/cal-wr-keenan-allen-creating-separation-with-his-hands/
:thumbup:
I trust the #s far more than I trust anyone's visually-informed opinion. That's why I started this in the first place.And Boldin's on-field performance measure was +6.7 -- fantastic. So by your example the data apparently does a fine job of sorting out the difference between deep speed and other receiving ability.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
As far as Patterson goes, I just think it's funny that a guy who is touted as a dominant prospect wasn't even dominant in college. I don't put that much stock in college production, but it's not irrelevant either. I expect more than one 100+ yard game in a season from a guy who is touted as the best WR in his draft class. You can look at just about any other WR prospect in this draft who figures to go in the top 60, and they were all more productive catching the ball.
I just wrote about this in Patterson's thread, but if you've got a WR being rated as highly as other WRs who were far more "productive" in terms of numbers by teams and scouts, that should tell you something. There must be something else that's making him on equal footing with these other guys that were more productive. If you're going by production numbers, Patterson would be drafted far below these guys. All else being equal, give me the least productive guy given similar draft positions because it means there's something they REALLY like that's bumping him up.
It would be interesting to go back and look at how production and draft position predict NFL success. Off the top of my head there have been some big busts on either end. Using this approach, you'd conclude that the relatively unproductive Darrius Heyward-Bey must be a better prospect than the ultra productive Michael Crabtree because he was picked higher despite worse stats. You'd conclude that Ted Ginn must be the best WR in his draft to get picked high despite bad stats. You would have been all over Matt Jones, Donte Stallworth, and Troy Williamson. To be fair, you'd also have some hits like Chad Johnson and Percy Harvin. Overall though, I don't really know if this approach would win more often than it would lose.In my opinion one of the reliable mistakes that NFL teams make is to look at guys who have some of the physical tools on paper and assume that they can craft them into productive players. This is how guys like Jake Locker, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Stephen Hill, Kyle Boller, Chris Henry (RB), Tyrone Calico, and Jerome Simpson end up being high picks even though they aren't actually good at football. They have some standout physical tools, and scouts and coaches get hung up on those things and assume that they can fill in the gaps. This kind of prospect throws up a big red flag for me.

I don't know that Patterson is one of those guys, but he fits the profile. If I end up taking him in any leagues, it will be because I'm convinced that he has a skill set that will translate, not because NFL teams saw a physical specimen and thought they could mold him into a productive wideout. With Patterson, the fact that he was productive rushing and returning kicks is a plus. And he has a partial excuse for his modest production because it was his first year playing major D1 college football. Then again, Tennessee had Justin Hunter to pull away attention and a QB who averaged 8+ YPA and threw the ball more than anyone in the conference.

I rank him high based on upside and the fact that there are no obvious great prospects in this draft to take ahead of him, but he is a boom-or-bust prospect in my view.
I don't know if you're trying to be difficult or just not reading what I wrote in the other thread I refernced, but you picked two guys that I specifically stated aren't what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about one specific team making a big time reach like DHB (with Al Davis and his fascination with speed) which I SPECIFICALLY said to exclude or Ted Ginn who was similarly viewed as a HUGE reach. I'm talking about a guy actually being rated and ranked highly by several scouts, GMs, dratniks, etc. These reports putting Patterson high aren't coming from one team. As of right now, based on reports from people talking to multiple sources, he is being given a first round grade already and it's not being disputed as nonsense. That's completely different than DHB being taken as the #1 WR and everyone's jaw dropping and going "Huh?" when he didn't have anything close to that kind of grade going into the draft. I'm also not stating that this is a fool-proof method that will identify top WR prospects. But, if I'm given a choice between two WRs drafted around the same spot and being around where they were viewed to be drafted (i.e. not huge reaches), if one was a very productive collegiate WR and the other a small school guy with very little on his stat sheet, gimme the latter because there's something being seen that is making up that difference in production or else he'd have gone much lower.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
As far as Patterson goes, I just think it's funny that a guy who is touted as a dominant prospect wasn't even dominant in college. I don't put that much stock in college production, but it's not irrelevant either. I expect more than one 100+ yard game in a season from a guy who is touted as the best WR in his draft class. You can look at just about any other WR prospect in this draft who figures to go in the top 60, and they were all more productive catching the ball.
I just wrote about this in Patterson's thread, but if you've got a WR being rated as highly as other WRs who were far more "productive" in terms of numbers by teams and scouts, that should tell you something. There must be something else that's making him on equal footing with these other guys that were more productive. If you're going by production numbers, Patterson would be drafted far below these guys. All else being equal, give me the least productive guy given similar draft positions because it means there's something they REALLY like that's bumping him up.
It would be interesting to go back and look at how production and draft position predict NFL success. Off the top of my head there have been some big busts on either end. Using this approach, you'd conclude that the relatively unproductive Darrius Heyward-Bey must be a better prospect than the ultra productive Michael Crabtree because he was picked higher despite worse stats. You'd conclude that Ted Ginn must be the best WR in his draft to get picked high despite bad stats. You would have been all over Matt Jones, Donte Stallworth, and Troy Williamson. To be fair, you'd also have some hits like Chad Johnson and Percy Harvin. Overall though, I don't really know if this approach would win more often than it would lose.In my opinion one of the reliable mistakes that NFL teams make is to look at guys who have some of the physical tools on paper and assume that they can craft them into productive players. This is how guys like Jake Locker, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Stephen Hill, Kyle Boller, Chris Henry (RB), Tyrone Calico, and Jerome Simpson end up being high picks even though they aren't actually good at football. They have some standout physical tools, and scouts and coaches get hung up on those things and assume that they can fill in the gaps. This kind of prospect throws up a big red flag for me.

I don't know that Patterson is one of those guys, but he fits the profile. If I end up taking him in any leagues, it will be because I'm convinced that he has a skill set that will translate, not because NFL teams saw a physical specimen and thought they could mold him into a productive wideout. With Patterson, the fact that he was productive rushing and returning kicks is a plus. And he has a partial excuse for his modest production because it was his first year playing major D1 college football. Then again, Tennessee had Justin Hunter to pull away attention and a QB who averaged 8+ YPA and threw the ball more than anyone in the conference.

I rank him high based on upside and the fact that there are no obvious great prospects in this draft to take ahead of him, but he is a boom-or-bust prospect in my view.
You picked two guys that I specifically stated aren't what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about one specific team making a big time reach like DHB (with Al Davis and his fascination with speed) which I SPECIFICALLY said to exclude or Ted Ginn who was similarly viewed as a huge reach. I'm talking about a guy actually being rated and ranked highly by several scouts, GMs, dratniks, etc. These reports putting Patterson high aren't coming from one team. As of right now, based on reports from people talking to multiple sources, he is being given a first round grade already. That's completely different than DHB being taken as the #1 WR and everyone's jaw dropping and going "Huh?" when he didn't have anything close to that kind of grade going into the draft. I'm also not stating that this is a fool-proof method that will identify top WR prospects. But, if I'm given a choice between two WRs drafted around the same spot and being around where they were viewed to be drafted (i.e. not huge reaches), if one was a very productive collegiate WR and the other a small school guy with very little on his stat sheet, gimme the latter because there's something being seen that is making up that difference in production or else he'd have gone much lower.
While they didn't have him rated WR1, most draft experts had DHB as a first-round grade.
 
Hindsight is always 20/20. Plenty of people thought Ginn and DHB were busts all along. Plenty of people found excuses to like them. I think it was surprising that they went as high as they did, but they were always expected to be first round picks:http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/players.php?genpos=WR&draftyear=2007&sortby=tsxpos&order=ASChttp://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/players.php?genpos=WR&draftyear=2009&sortorder=tsxpos&order=ASCI don't want to come across as rating production above all else. There is no magic formula and no single measurable to isolate that will pick out all the busts. Plenty of awesome college receivers were crap in the NFL. Mark Clayton, Mike Williams, and Dwayne Jarrett come to mind.But when you talk about the project kind of WRs like Patterson who are drafted because teams get hypnotized by the measurables and the playmaking ability, it's worth pointing out that guys like Heyward-Bey, Simpson, Hill, Calico, Stallworth, Williamson, and Ginn were drafted high under similar reasoning. What is the hit % on first round WRs? 40-50%? It's worth reminding people of that amidst all the frenzy for this current group. A lot of these guys won't amount to much, even if they're picked high.

 
Bray was too skinny in college so that part is good, but he did not help himself with the perspection that he not have an NFL QB persona/leadership with his interview. There is relative little question about his arm but less tangible stuff will hurt him with many teams. I would be surprised to see mutliple teams thinking he has 1st round arm talent taking a chance that the 'other" stuff is fixable.

 
Mayock made a good point last night that while there are no clear cut top 10 elite prospects at QB, WR, RB, etc. that would normally get a lot of people excited, that with the record number of underclassmen who have enter this draft, that this is an incredibly deep draft.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
A couple copy/pastes for you...South Carolina RB Marcus Lattimore checked in 5-foot-11 and 221 pounds at Friday's NFL Scouting Combine weigh-in.Alabama RB Eddie Lacy checked in 5-foot-11 and 231 pounds at Friday's NFL Scouting Combine weigh-in.

 
A couple more:West Virginia QB Geno Smith arrived at the Combine weighing 218 pounds and measured in at 6'2 and 3/8 inches. Geno also measured in with 9 2/8 inch hands.West Virginia WR Tavon Austin showed up to the Combine weighing 174 pounds and measured in at 5'8 and 1/2 inches.

 
Really like DeAndre Hopkins size, bigger than I thought with good hands = positive. Patterson came in smaller than I thought and small hands = negative

 
A couple copy/pastes for you...South Carolina RB Marcus Lattimore checked in 5-foot-11 and 221 pounds at Friday's NFL Scouting Combine weigh-in.Alabama RB Eddie Lacy checked in 5-foot-11 and 231 pounds at Friday's NFL Scouting Combine weigh-in.
Good for both of them, heard Lattimore's way ahead of schedule and at the same facility as RGIII for rehab.
 
A couple copy/pastes for you...South Carolina RB Marcus Lattimore checked in 5-foot-11 and 221 pounds at Friday's NFL Scouting Combine weigh-in.Alabama RB Eddie Lacy checked in 5-foot-11 and 231 pounds at Friday's NFL Scouting Combine weigh-in.
That is a good weight for both guys and about what most expected, I'd bet.
 
A couple copy/pastes for you...South Carolina RB Marcus Lattimore checked in 5-foot-11 and 221 pounds at Friday's NFL Scouting Combine weigh-in.Alabama RB Eddie Lacy checked in 5-foot-11 and 231 pounds at Friday's NFL Scouting Combine weigh-in.
That is a good weight for both guys and about what most expected, I'd bet.
Agreed, interested to see Lacy run at his pro day.Lattimore turned down an invite to the Presidential Inauguration in order to stay with Dr. James Andrews and continue his rehab. If that's not impressive, i'm not sure what is
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top