matuski
Footballguy
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2015 NBA Thread: I felt a great disturbance in the trolls, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. (1 Viewer)
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tommyboy
Footballguy
It's not because it sucks, playoff hockey is unbelievable. It's because it's horribly marketed, is a game thats hamstrung with antiquated rules, and doesn't get played much by youth in the USA .
tommyboy
Footballguy
Britney Spears
guest speaker
I feel like I brought this up in here before with a whole lot less stats. Definitely on the Isaiah is overrated bandwagon.
Boston
Footballguy
Beyond comical...Jeff Teague and Andre Miller...that's like saying Jay Cutler is better than John Elway...as a Celts fan I hated those Bad Boys Team but there is zero doubt that Isiah was fantastic and played with brass balls...if anything he is underrated...he let his numbers take a hit for the good of his team...he was probably also overrated in college where he won an NCAA title...
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derek245583
Footballguy
Encyclopedia Brown
Footballguy
NBA Network is running the forty-year anniversary of the triple OT Finals game between Boston and Phoenix. Wow, what a game. Intense from start to finish. Boston let a twenty-two fourth quarter lead evaporate. I never knew that Phoenix deliberately called an illegal timeout so they would get the ball at halfcourt after the Boston FT. Gar Heard's shot was sweet, but Boston was dumb by double covering Westphal as he stood thirty feet from the basket.
Some noteworthy occurrences: A Boston fan came onto the court and slugged a referee. Just came out of nowhere and cold-cocked him.
John McCleod wore a red plaid sportcoat.
Don Nelson had a potbelly and looked to be reliving every cigarette he had ever inhaled. Phoenix had a player named **** with a receding hairline and with what would later be called the 70's porn 'stache.
Some noteworthy occurrences: A Boston fan came onto the court and slugged a referee. Just came out of nowhere and cold-cocked him.
John McCleod wore a red plaid sportcoat.
Don Nelson had a potbelly and looked to be reliving every cigarette he had ever inhaled. Phoenix had a player named **** with a receding hairline and with what would later be called the 70's porn 'stache.
Todem
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Paul...Marbury....Billups...Miller..........................................................Thomas
matuski
Footballguy
Decided to look into it a bit, just sharing the facts I found.
For example.. most MLB regular season late night games destroyed NHL Conference Final Playoff Game 7s last year.
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Kev4029
Footballguy
Obviously advanced statistics aren't the be-all and end-all to evaluate a player, but they are definitely part of how somebody should be evaluated. I included that list of players to prove a point, not to say that Andre Miller and Steph Marbury were better players. My point was that there is no player whose statistics depart further than public perception than Thomas.
If Thomas was around today he would be eviscerated as a ball-pounding inefficient stat-stuffer.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
How the hell are you a stat stuffer, averaging under 20 ppg? and once the Pistons got good he didn't dominate the shots.
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Kev4029
Footballguy
For the people that don't like to compare eras, here is a comparison between some 80s PGs (I only included players years through Thomas' last season, I didn't want to include a bunch of players that had an advantage in learning to shoot 3s). I purposely left off the HOF PGs of the era (John Stockton, Dennis Johnson, Magic, etc).
In the regular season he only compares favorably to Fat Lever to Sleepy Floyd. I'm comfortable saying that Kevin Johnson was a better player that Thomas. The other 3 guys were all very good regular season players but outside of Mo Cheeks, they didn't share similar post season success. I'm not convinced that if they had switched situations with Thomas that Detroit would have been significantly worse off.
One of the strange things about how Thomas has been perceived, is that he wasn't especially celebrated in his time. He made 5 All-NBA teams (to be fair, he did have a bunch of All-Star games) and only collected 0.318 MVP shares (the sum of percentage of MVP votes each year of a players career) with only one top 7 finish. Those are the accolades of a HOF player but hardly a player one would assume would be in the conversation for the best player at their position of all time. It shows how much emphasis the media puts on RINGZ and how much people eat that #### up, even if they are achieved well past a player's peak.
In the regular season he only compares favorably to Fat Lever to Sleepy Floyd. I'm comfortable saying that Kevin Johnson was a better player that Thomas. The other 3 guys were all very good regular season players but outside of Mo Cheeks, they didn't share similar post season success. I'm not convinced that if they had switched situations with Thomas that Detroit would have been significantly worse off.
One of the strange things about how Thomas has been perceived, is that he wasn't especially celebrated in his time. He made 5 All-NBA teams (to be fair, he did have a bunch of All-Star games) and only collected 0.318 MVP shares (the sum of percentage of MVP votes each year of a players career) with only one top 7 finish. Those are the accolades of a HOF player but hardly a player one would assume would be in the conversation for the best player at their position of all time. It shows how much emphasis the media puts on RINGZ and how much people eat that #### up, even if they are achieved well past a player's peak.
Kev4029
Footballguy
Would you call Rajon Rondo a stat-stuffer for seeking out assists over all else? What about a guy like Marcus Camby who would ditch his defensive assignments to block a shot out of bounds? How about JJ Hickson who would skip boxing his guy out to grab a rebound from his teammate who was boxing his guy out? None of those guys have ever approached 20ppg but I would absolutely call all of them stat-stuffers.
The list of players with at least 18822 points in their career and a worse TS% than Thomas (.516) includes 6 guys pre merger when the game was played with very low efficiency and a high pace and Clifford Robinson. There is something to be said for being able to score over 18000 points, but to do so in such an inefficient way has to be considered, doesn't it?
ETA: Thomas took between 20.2 shots and 22.7 per 100 possessions in every season in his career. He was a much of a shot taker/misser in his first season as his last season, the team's success did not change the way he played, he only got less efficient as the team had more success.
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There's a difference between being a JR Smith stat-stuffer and a Bulls-era Nate Robinson type who is inefficient because his team is putting a ton of pressure on him to create offense. I think Thomas is probably overrated but he was still a top notch guard and worthy HOFer, IMO.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I agree with most of this, but I would lump Smith, Bulls-Robinson, and Thomas together in that their teams were counting on them to create offense in spite of efficiency at times. JR Smith has spent most of his career leading second units that needed a shot creator. When he was on good teams like the last couple years and the year the Nuggets when to the conference finals, he has toned down the reckless gunning. Robinson's situation has been very similar to JR, he spent most of his career, except the end of his season with the Bulls, leading a second unit.
Isiah played with a lot of guys that weren't great shot creators so he had to force some offense, especially early in his career. The Pistons started to improve in the second half of his career when they had other guys that could create more efficient shots like Joe Dumars and Mark Aguirre/Andrian Dantley and others that covered for him defensively like Laimbeer, Dumars, Rodman, Mahorn, and Salley.
Boston
Footballguy
Kev4029
Footballguy
I think this is really what this argument boils down to for people that sit on your side of the argument, which is obviously the majority of people in here.
But was he really easily the best player?
During the first title season Dumars won the Finals MVP and was first team All-Defense, plus he averaged 17.2 PPG and 5.3 APG and his advanced stats (which are mostly an offensive/rebounding thing) were very similar to Thomas. Dennis Rodman was first team All-Defense and averaged 12.6 RP36 and 12.0 PP36. Thomas was tied for 3rd/4th in WS behind Laimbeer and Rodman and tied with Dumars (who had a significantly higher WS/48) and did not have any regular season honors other than being an All-Star.
In the second title season, Dumars was All-NBA, and All-Star, and All-Defense and average 17.8 PPG and 4.9 APG (he was also All-NBA and All-Defense the following year). Rodman was Defensive Player of the Year (was also DPOY the following season). Thomas was 4th in WS behind Laimbeer, Dumars, and Rodman and again only had an All-Star appearance.
I don't see much of an argument that he was the best player on either team, other than his strong post-season run on the second title. Certainly he wasn't easily the best player.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Boston
Footballguy
Dumars was an excellent player but Isiah was the alpha Dog on those teams...watch the Bad Boys documentary...the players are very clear on who the main cog was...if you watched hoop during that era I find it hard to believe you can think otherwise (and this maybe the first time I have ever heard anyone argue this)...
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
You can't spell "Matuski's Hot Takes" without Matuski.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I started this whole thing saying that I'm 30 so I didn't watch him 30 years ago. I have seen a small handful of old games and I did watch the Bad Boys 30 for 30 a year or two ago when ESPN showed it. I also remember the team saying that the thing that really lead the titles was trading Dantley for Aguirre. Thomas may have been the team leader, but that doesn't make him the best player. They had a well balanced team where no player really stood out as the best player, but I don't see any argument that he was the best player on either of those teams. He WAS the best player on some of their early-mid 80s teams that were getting knocked out early in the playoffs with league average defenses, but as the team improved because of the defense which he had little to do with, he became less integral to the team's success. He was one of the worst defenders on a great defense and one of the best offensive players on a league average offense.
GOB
Footballguy
Boston
Footballguy
Not to sound like a dope but I can not get into a back and fourth with someone who didn't actually watch him play (i.e. this will be my last post about this)...in Bill Simmons Book of Basketball he mentions a few times that there are players who's value will go up and down based on people who did not see them using stats to advocate something that is not correct...I believe this is a perfect example of that...he also ranks Isiah as the #23 best player of all time and calls him the "the best pure point guard ever as well as the guy who nailed the most categories on a 'here's what I want from point guard' checklist"...I actually don't agree with that (Magic is the best PG I have ever seen) but that is the type of player he was...Simmons also says..."There's a reason he became the best player on a team that won two titles in a row (and should have won three). If you doubt his leadership watch what happens after the Pistons clinch the 90 title on a last second miss-everyone runs right towards Isiah and lifts him to the sky."
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Kev4029
Footballguy
Simmons talks about Isiah that way to help defend calling Russell the 2nd best player of all time. He spoke about a few players like that in the book to make it seem like he wasn't just doing it with Russell to elevate him for no reason. I don't doubt that he was the leader of the team, but just because you are the team leader does not make you the best player.
Having not watched him I have the advantage of hindsight and balanced coverage. In the years of tape delayed playoff games (well into Thomas' career), no internet, and little comprehensive sports coverage, a few media outlets could control the conversation with a player or team. As they were winning titles, the probably didn't see or hear a whole lot about teams other than the Lakers, Celtics (both were approached their historical runs by then), the Bulls (who were just starting their historical run), Knicks, and the Pistons. When a game was on national TV I bet it was nearly always one of those teams. So it shouldn't be a surprise that the leading scorer from those Pistons teams is overrated.
tommyboy
Footballguy
tommyboy
Footballguy
Exactly. It's like the writer wasn't around when the pistons were dominant.
For example, run a stat analysis on bill Walton or Maurice Lucas in the 76-77 playoffs. Most people don't remember, but Maurice was the reason the blazers won. That, and tremendous teamwork.
The game has changed since Isiah was winning titles , comparing modern stats is irrelevant
jabarony
Footballguy
mr. furley
Footballguy
guys, i wasn't alive to watch Bill Russell play but i don't think he was all that good
Insein
Footballguy
Wilt was pretty much a stiff too. I mean what channel as his 100pt game on? Exactly.
mr. furley
Footballguy
sporthenry
Footballguy
Cleveland's bigs are doing nothing. Thompson gets blocked, doesn't get down the court, provides no rim protection and lets Ezeli get an easy put back. Getting killed on the boards by a team who was just dominated on the boards.
Dez
Footballguy
I get that LeBron is 2-4 and that is bad and all but he took teams to the Finals that had no chance.
The 07 Cavs should have never made the finals but LeBron willed them there so they got swept by the Spurs because they shouldn't even have been there.
Last year's Cavs team was a miracle to win 2 games.
So really LeBron is like 2-2. How many times was Miami the favorite ? Cavs were not even close to the favorite in any of the 3 series he was here.
So if Cavs lose as expected LeBron will be 2-5 and he would have been favored in 2 of the 7 so he would be exactly as expected.
The 07 Cavs should have never made the finals but LeBron willed them there so they got swept by the Spurs because they shouldn't even have been there.
Last year's Cavs team was a miracle to win 2 games.
So really LeBron is like 2-2. How many times was Miami the favorite ? Cavs were not even close to the favorite in any of the 3 series he was here.
So if Cavs lose as expected LeBron will be 2-5 and he would have been favored in 2 of the 7 so he would be exactly as expected.
Dez
Footballguy
LeBron is 9-0 in his last 9 playoff games when down 0-1. LeBron has a playoff game in 25 straight series.
It would take a Herculean effort if he is going to keep these 2 streaks alive tonight.
Cavs should have been up 10 early when GS was missing everything. They missed their chance to get up early and maybe make this a different game.
It would take a Herculean effort if he is going to keep these 2 streaks alive tonight.
Cavs should have been up 10 early when GS was missing everything. They missed their chance to get up early and maybe make this a different game.
James Daulton
Footballguy
Cavs got this.
Card Trader
Footballguy
These refs
Britney Spears
guest speaker
No over the back on that?
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