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2015 NBA Thread: I felt a great disturbance in the trolls, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. (2 Viewers)

STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:
You're a madman. Charles Oakley alone produces more testosterone today at 52 years old then the entire Toronto roster.
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Yes and we're probably faster than Oakley and Ewing. At our current age.

Raptors would run them out if the gym. 

 
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tommyGunZ said:
Down 1, 7 secs left, Lebron shakes Iggy, has a clear path to the basket, but instead kicks it to JR Smith for a contested 28 ftr, which gets nothing but backboard as time expires.....
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It would become the Cleveland basketball equivalent of Red Right 88.  And they will add a JR Smith exhibit in the Jose Mesa Wing of the God Hates Cleveland Sports Museum.

 
This is setting up as a classic clv fail.  But igualdalda and bogut are gone and curry and Thompson are mia so they should have a great shot.  Great game 7.  This is what sports is all about

 
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Just rewatched game 6.  Curry early foul trouble and Livingston shooting them out of it early really turned that game.  Cleveland just cruised.  No pressure.  Props to T. Thompson.  Doing it again.  Earning his contract.  If Cleveland want cap flexibility this coming offseason they have it.  Lot of teams would take him.  Talking big picture.  Love and Thompson are easily moveable.

This is pantheon time.  Lebron is rising.  Curry is falling.  Currys' lame passes this whole series are bewildering.  Curry is amazing.  Best shooter ever.  But make no mistake the rule changes have benefited him greatly.  He has been small this series.  Curry vs The Bad Boys?  He'd be even smaller.

Major props to Lebron.  Brilliant play.  Getting work done.  Amazing passing.  Just making the right decisions.

But it all can change in one game.

Game 7.  Here we go.

 
It occurred to mentoday that Nike is orchestrating the Finals, probably with the NBA's collusion, to seriously damage Under Armour. LeBron is going to make Curry look like a wimpy kid who wilted in the face of a superior player. And Nike obviously had a mole deep inside UA who designed that horrible Curry shoe and got it unveiled mid-series. 

 
The_Man said:
It occurred to mentoday that Nike is orchestrating the Finals, probably with the NBA's collusion, to seriously damage Under Armour. LeBron is going to make Curry look like a wimpy kid who wilted in the face of a superior player. And Nike obviously had a mole deep inside UA who designed that horrible Curry shoe and got it unveiled mid-series. 
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Curry's shoes aren't too bad. They come in different colors. I'm thinking about getting one with the Nike swoosh on the side.

 
tommyGunZ said:
FWIW, I think LeBron is cementing GOAT status this post season.  He is the best to ever lace'm up, IMO. 
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LeBron is the most complete player I've ever seen. Not sure if that equates to "greatest", but it makes me want to listen to the LeBron arguments.  And if he stays healthy he's still got a lot of high-level ball left to play.

 
Abraham said:
Patrick Ewing is the most overrated NBA "star" of the 90's. 
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Who is overrating him?  I think everyone pretty much knows what he was...I don't think I have ever seen anyone (stat nerd or old-timer) try to make a case for him being better than what he was as a pro...

 
Boston said:
Who is overrating him?  I think everyone pretty much knows what he was...I don't think I have ever seen anyone (stat nerd or old-timer) try to make a case for him being better than what he was as a pro...
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Fair point.  I just don't like the historical idea that the Knicks, led by Ewing, posed a big challenge to Jordan's Bulls.  

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
LeBron is the most complete player I've ever seen. Not sure if that equates to "greatest", but it makes me want to listen to the LeBron arguments.  And if he stays healthy he's still got a lot of high-level ball left to play.
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LeBron's play in game 6 might have been the best I've seen.  The leadership, decision making, shooting, defense, passing.  He was in total command and on a mission.  The only knock on LeBron from being GOAT is his outside shooting.  MJ especially was more aesthetic on offense.  But the physical dominance, rebounding, etc of LeBron may tip the scales. Magic/Bird/Kobe were great - but these 2 are on a different level. Until game 6 I was steadfast that MJ was the GOAT.  If LeBron plays a game 7 like game 6 I'm leaning his way.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
LeBron is the most complete player I've ever seen. Not sure if that equates to "greatest", but it makes me want to listen to the LeBron arguments.  And if he stays healthy he's still got a lot of high-level ball left to play.
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The argument for Jordan over Lebron is pretty straightforward:

  1. More titles.
  2. More honors (+1 MVP, +4 Finals MVPs [for now], +4 1st team All Defense, +1 DPOY).
  3. Played tougher competition in his conference and in the playoffs, yet still won and dominated while doing so.
  4. The eye test, having watched all of both of their careers (not every game, but many, including most playoff games).
There is other stuff, but those are the high points IMO.

A win in game 7 of this Finals would certainly narrow the gap, but there would still be a gap.

 
Just in time for Game 7, an old Steve Kerr tweet has resurfaced.  From March 2014, not long before he was hired by GSW.

"If I had to pick 1 player to play a Game 7 on the road, I'd take LeBron 1st, KD 2nd, and Joakim Noah 3rd. Noah is an amazing player/winner."

 
Just Win Baby said:
The argument for Jordan over Lebron is pretty straightforward:

  1. More titles.
  2. More honors (+1 MVP, +4 Finals MVPs [for now], +4 1st team All Defense, +1 DPOY).
  3. Played tougher competition in his conference and in the playoffs, yet still won and dominated while doing so.
  4. The eye test, having watched all of both of their careers (not every game, but many, including most playoff games).
There is other stuff, but those are the high points IMO.

A win in game 7 of this Finals would certainly narrow the gap, but there would still be a gap.
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A huge gap.

 
Abraham said:
Fair point.  I just don't like the historical idea that the Knicks, led by Ewing, posed a big challenge to Jordan's Bulls.  
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Or Mourning's Heat. Or the aging Celtics. Or Mark Price's Cavs. Or whatever happened to Detroit after 90. The east was more of a joke in the 90's than now.

Shaq's Magic was probably toughest buy they were their best when Jordan retired the first time. And Miller's Pacers were cute to the Bulls.

 
Just Win Baby said:
The argument for Jordan over Lebron is pretty straightforward:

  1. More titles.
  2. More honors (+1 MVP, +4 Finals MVPs [for now], +4 1st team All Defense, +1 DPOY).
  3. Played tougher competition in his conference and in the playoffs, yet still won and dominated while doing so.
  4. The eye test, having watched all of both of their careers (not every game, but many, including most playoff games).
There is other stuff, but those are the high points IMO.

A win in game 7 of this Finals would certainly narrow the gap, but there would still be a gap.
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Jordan didn't play tougher competition. That's revisionist history. The east back then was pretty much #### too. 

 
Premier said:
Jordan didn't play tougher competition. That's revisionist history. The east back then was pretty much #### too. 
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How so?  The current East where the rebuilding Pacers took the 2 Raptors to 7 games--and frankly should have won the series?  Tell me how collectively the current East playoff teams were remotely close to what Jordan had to face with the Knicks, Pacers, early with the bad boy Pistons, and early in his career with the Celtics?    You think the current Kemba Walker led Hornets are better?  You think Al Horford is more imposing the Ewing?     I think Lebron is a great player--I think he's easily top 3-5 by the time his career is over--but there is no way the current East is more imposing than the East Jordan had to go through.  The game was different back then--the style of play allowed for physical--hardcore basketball--basically organized street ball.  Basketball used to be a contact sport--not this finesse sport that the NBA has turned it into.  When Jordan was playing-you could basically clothes-line a player and it would be a common foul.   The #2-#8 seeds in the NBA this season don't even compare the old school Knicks, Pacers, Celtics, Pistons in my opinion.  

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
How so?  The current East where the rebuilding Pacers took the 2 Raptors to 7 games--and frankly should have won the series?  Tell me how collectively the current East playoff teams were remotely close to what Jordan had to face with the Knicks, Pacers, early with the bad boy Pistons, and early in his career with the Celtics?    You think the current Kemba Walker led Hornets are better?  You think Al Horford is more imposing the Ewing?     I think Lebron is a great player--I think he's easily top 3-5 by the time his career is over--but there is no way the current East is more imposing than the East Jordan had to go through.  The game was different back then--the style of play allowed for physical--hardcore basketball--basically organized street ball.  Basketball used to be a contact sport--not this finesse sport that the NBA has turned it into.  When Jordan was playing-you could basically clothes-line a player and it would be a common foul.   The #2-#8 seeds in the NBA this season don't even compare the old school Knicks, Pacers, Celtics, Pistons in my opinion.  
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That's because you were probably a kid back then discovering the NBA for the first time and that's what you remember positively.

Those old Knicks teams were Ewing and a bunch of crap. The Pacers were Miller, Smits who was ok, and a bunch of crap. None of those teams were great, or really even memorable  

I don't know what the 80s Pistons have to do with titles that Jordan won in the 90s. 

 
Premier said:
I don't know what the 80s Pistons have to do with titles that Jordan won in the 90s. 
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You mean the Pistons that wouldn't shake the Bulls hands once the East was theirs in a playoff series? What are you talking about?  Isaiah and company walking off the court and the Bulls subsequently winning a championship, IIRC? 

Huh?  

The Pistons were late '80s/early '90s. You put the word '80s in his mouth. That's inaccurate, IIRC.  

 
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And I have no skin in the game; just came in to read this and was a bit taken aback. 

LeBron is awesome. Curry is awesome. I can't wait for tonight, and I haven't been an NBA fan in years. (Yes, it's "an" to me simply because of the vowel sounding nature of "eN")

 
I am not going to argue that the East was weaker back then, but the Pistons prime was 1987-1990.  They were on their way down in 1991 already before losing to the Bulls in the ECF. 

 
Premier said:
That's because you were probably a kid back then discovering the NBA for the first time and that's what you remember positively.

Those old Knicks teams were Ewing and a bunch of crap. The Pacers were Miller, Smits who was ok, and a bunch of crap. None of those teams were great, or really even memorable  

I don't know what the 80s Pistons have to do with titles that Jordan won in the 90s. 
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The Pacers were Miller, Smits--and a bunch of crap?  They were an awesome defensive team with the Davis brothers--and had a great all around player named Derrick Mckey that you are forgetting about. They also had Mark Jackson (an all time assist great) and Reggie (one of the all time best clutch players and sharp shooters)--and that's forgettable for you?   Outside of Cleveland--who even compares to that this season. C'mon man.  

The Knicks had Ewing, Oakley, Starks, Allan Houston, Larry Johnson just to name a few.  They were a hard nosed defensive minded team in an era where defense actually meant something.  You are big time marginalizing how back then--entire teams had a collective attitude.  In the current NBA--they say that guys like Westy play aggressive and intensely--back then--entire teams played with that type of aggression and intensity. 

Let's not forget the 90's Orlando---shaq, penny, Nick Anderson, Dennis scott..etc--a team that is easily more stacked and talented than any eastern team that Lebron had to go through.    There is no team in the east outside of Cleveland that could even get close to competing with this team.   

 
rockaction said:
You mean the Pistons that wouldn't shake the Bulls hands once the East was theirs in a playoff series? What are you talking about?  Isaiah and company walking off the court and the Bulls subsequently winning a championship, IIRC? 

Huh?  

The Pistons were late '80s/early '90s. You put the word '80s in his mouth. That's inaccurate, IIRC.  
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Well the 90s pistons kind of sucked so I assumed he wasn't taking about that. :shrug:  

 
Premier said:
Well the 90s pistons kind of sucked so I assumed he wasn't taking about that. :shrug:  
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Do you guys mean the 1990 team that won a championship and went back to the ECF a year later?  I guess if we're thinking '92-on, then yes, but to me, '90s literally means '90s, early to late. And that's who Chicago had to vanquish before moving on. But what the hell, I don't have enough skin in the game to care.  

I'm having a hard time with this, but this is a LeBron debate, so I'm out.  

 
Ghost Rider said:
I am not going to argue that the East was weaker back then, but the Pistons prime was 1987-1990.  They were on their way down in 1991 already before losing to the Bulls in the ECF. 
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I was replying to his general comment that "Jordan didn't play tougher competition".  Jordan was a rookie in around 86-87--and he did indeed have to play some very tough Celtic and Piston teams.  The fact that these teams prevented the best player in the history of the NBA from winning NBA titles for several years early in his career is a testament to the "competition" that Jordan had to face over his career.   I didn't realize that ones competition is only determined by the years they win championships. 

 
1.  The Orlando team was probably the best of the bunch....and they beat the Bulls with Jordan. I ####### hate how much that gets forgotten. "Jordan only played 16 games...he wasn't all the way back."  Goddamint - guy comes back for 27/7/5 to a team that made the ECF the year before and they got beat in 6. 

2. The pistons also beat Michael Jordan's Bulls.  Another thing that gets lost in this argument. At the same age (or older) than players like Steph curry, kawhi Leonard, and Russell Westbrook, our hero Michael Jordan was losing in the playoffs.

3. The Pacers were garbage.  The Knicks were garbage. The East back then was every bit as watery as it is now save the magic for a very small window. I know this because when I think of the 90's I basically remember Jordan and Scottie along with a long list of guys from the west (Barkley, Peyton, kemp, Malone, Stockton, dream, drexler) before getting to flawed players like Ewing (folded when the lights were brightest), Miller (no defense), and mourning (not enough offense). I also know it because perhaps the best non-Bulls teams of the 90's in the East either beat the Bulls in the playoffs or lost to Hakeem and guys from the local community college in the NBA finals. 

 
rockaction said:
Do you guys mean the 1990 team that won a championship and went back to the ECF a year later?  I guess if we're thinking '92-on, then yes, but to me, '90s literally means '90s, early to late. And that's who Chicago had to vanquish before moving on. But what the hell, I don't have enough skin in the game to care.  

I'm having a hard time with this, but this is a LeBron debate, so I'm out.  
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You definitely are having a harder time with this than you should be. 

 
Just Win Baby said:
The argument for Jordan over Lebron is pretty straightforward:

  1. More titles.
  2. More honors (+1 MVP, +4 Finals MVPs [for now], +4 1st team All Defense, +1 DPOY).
  3. Played tougher competition in his conference and in the playoffs, yet still won and dominated while doing so.
  4. The eye test, having watched all of both of their careers (not every game, but many, including most playoff games).
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1.  Organizations, not players, win titles.  Put LeBron of comparable age on those 90s Bulls teams instead of Jordan and they win the same number of titles, maybe more since LeBron wouldn't waste two seasons playing baseball.

2.  Compelling objective criteria.  I would argue that including this year Jordan and LeBron have been the best player in the Finals an equal number of times.  That said, Jordan's league MVP tally is likely a bit low as is seemed the press got bored giving it to him every year.  Jordan is probably the best perimeter defender of all time, but he he couldn't guard 4s and 5s the way LeBron can, yet LeBron knows how to use his quickness and length to guard PGs for stretches.

3.  Not a straightforward argument.  The average player improved over time, the average pro improves over time.  Jordan's peak came during two expansion periods that diluted league talent. LeBron's peak has come during a large influx of international talent, expanding the available player pool without increasing the number of teams.

4.  The eye test is many things.  Straightforward is not one of them.

 
Abraham said:
1.  The Orlando team was probably the best of the bunch....and they beat the Bulls with Jordan. I ####### hate how much that gets forgotten. "Jordan only played 16 games...he wasn't all the way back."  Goddamint - guy comes back for 27/7/5 to a team that made the ECF the year before and they got beat in 6. 
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Agreed. Some just love to act like MJ was indestructible and there are always excuses for his losses...

-1995 - like you said, "He didn't play the whole season."

-the three straight playoff ousters to the Pistons - "The Bulls weren't ready to win it all yet," or "He didn't have enough help yet."

 
That ORL 90s team as we think of it only existed for two seasons: 1995 when they knocked the Bulls out of the playoffs, and 1996 when the Bulls made Anderson and Scott disappear from the face of the Earth and eliminated ORL.  

Before ORL signed Horace Grant they didn't get out of the first round. Shaquille signed with LAL after the 1996 season and ORL was done as a contender.  

 
Abraham said:
3. The Pacers were garbage.  The Knicks were garbage. The East back then was every bit as watery as it is now save the magic for a very small window. I know this because when I think of the 90's I basically remember Jordan and Scottie along with a long list of guys from the west (Barkley, Peyton, kemp, Malone, Stockton, dream, drexler) before getting to flawed players like Ewing (folded when the lights were brightest), Miller (no defense), and mourning (not enough offense). I also know it because perhaps the best non-Bulls teams of the 90's in the East either beat the Bulls in the playoffs or lost to Hakeem and guys from the local community college in the NBA finals. 
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Not arguing your major point here, but I'd testify I remember seeing the Jordan Bulls beat Barkley's 6ers in the playoffs.  Barkley wasn't just a guy from the west, I mean he played against Jordan for a good clip of his career in the east, right?

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
That ORL 90s team as we think of it only existed for two seasons: 1995 when they knocked the Bulls out of the playoffs, and 1996 when the Bulls made Anderson and Scott disappear from the face of the Earth and eliminated ORL.  

Before ORL signed Horace Grant they didn't get out of the first round. Shaquille signed with LAL after the 1996 season and ORL was done as a contender.  
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Too soon.

 
Premier said:
Jordan didn't play tougher competition. That's revisionist history. The east back then was pretty much #### too. 
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Obviously tough to compare eras, but the idea that the '80s was more competitive than today's NBA is absurd.  

Can you imagine transporting LeBron into one of those 1986 NBA playoff games we see in NBA classic? It would be like Tecmo Bo Jackson.  He would anialate those white dudes in tiny shorts.

 
tommyGunZ said:
Obviously tough to compare eras, but the idea that the '80s was more competitive than today's NBA is absurd.  

Can you imagine transporting LeBron into one of those 1986 NBA playoff games we see in NBA classic? It would be like Tecmo Bo Jackson.  He would anialate those white dudes in tiny shorts.
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I completely disagree with this.  When was Lebron born?  1983 or something?  How is a toddler going to compete against grown men?  GTFO

 
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