***2015 San Diego Chargers - Offseason News, Notes, & Analysis*** (1 Viewer)

[Tau837]

I'm not as down as you are as Connor as a backup ILB

I'm not really down on Connor. I was simply commenting on how the players graded out at PFF. Connor actually had a positive rating against the run but was awful in coverage, which was the exact opposite of Teo. But Connor was still an order of magnitude better than Butler.

Is there reason to hope that Butler gets better? His contract is looking like a massive bust at this point, but nobody talks much about that.

The third CB matters to me much more than the third ILB. That's why the Jimmy Wilson isn't very exciting as a signing but in a world where Shareece Wright signs for $3-4mil/season ANY CB is going to get paid.

But Wilson was apparently signed to start at SS, not to be the third CB. Steve Williams looked solid in limited snaps last season. Is he now the third corner?

 

[Tau837]

Gachkar signed with Dallas. That is disappointing, though I understand the team may not have been able to afford to pay him what Dallas did given what they have invested in Butler.

LBs have to be a concern at this point. Compared to last season:

I think there are so many other glaring holes(C, NT, S for instance) that don't have an NFL caliber player that LB may get slightly overlooked. Before FA started I was hoping they'd target Jabaal Sheard and he signed a pretty reasonable 2yr/$11mil but that may have been on a discount to SB winner NE. The signing that really raised my eyebrows was Arthur Moats in PIT for 3yr/$7.5mil... especially considering they just lost Worilds. Moats could have provided depth at ILB and very easily could have beaten out the disappointing Attaochu as a starting OLB. I'm not as down as you are as Connor as a backup ILB in a league where the nickel defense is played more and more. The third CB matters to me much more than the third ILB. That's why the Jimmy Wilson isn't very exciting as a signing but in a world where Shareece Wright signs for $3-4mil/season ANY CB is going to get paid.

I like Attaochu, a lot. I think he'll be a monster this coming year.

As things stand right now, he better be.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I'm not as down as you are as Connor as a backup ILB

I'm not really down on Connor. I was simply commenting on how the players graded out at PFF. Connor actually had a positive rating against the run but was awful in coverage, which was the exact opposite of Teo. But Connor was still an order of magnitude better than Butler.Is there reason to hope that Butler gets better? His contract is looking like a massive bust at this point, but nobody talks much about that.

The third CB matters to me much more than the third ILB. That's why the Jimmy Wilson isn't very exciting as a signing but in a world where Shareece Wright signs for $3-4mil/season ANY CB is going to get paid.

But Wilson was apparently signed to start at SS, not to be the third CB. Steve Williams looked solid in limited snaps last season. Is he now the third corner?

Not much to say with re: to Butler. He's been awful since getting big bucks. Can't cut him, just have to hope he comes into camp hungry and ready to get back to being the beast he was pre-contract.

 

[Tau837]

I'm not as down as you are as Connor as a backup ILB

I'm not really down on Connor. I was simply commenting on how the players graded out at PFF. Connor actually had a positive rating against the run but was awful in coverage, which was the exact opposite of Teo. But Connor was still an order of magnitude better than Butler.Is there reason to hope that Butler gets better? His contract is looking like a massive bust at this point, but nobody talks much about that.

The third CB matters to me much more than the third ILB. That's why the Jimmy Wilson isn't very exciting as a signing but in a world where Shareece Wright signs for $3-4mil/season ANY CB is going to get paid.

But Wilson was apparently signed to start at SS, not to be the third CB. Steve Williams looked solid in limited snaps last season. Is he now the third corner?

Not much to say with re: to Butler. He's been awful since getting big bucks. Can't cut him, just have to hope he comes into camp hungry and ready to get back to being the beast he was pre-contract.

Butler wasn't good even before he got the big bucks. PFF graded him as the #45 ILB out of 55 who played at least 25% of their teams' snaps in 2013, with negative grades for pass rushing, coverage, and run defense. Also, to that point, he had never played more than 731 snaps in a season, so he had not even been a full time player.

I questioned in last year's thread why everyone seemed so anxious for the team to lock him up, and everyone who responded seemed to hand wave his 2013 performance. Unfortunately, he was much worse in 2014.

To give him that albatross of a contract is Telesco's worst move as Chargers GM. The structure of the contract makes it prohibitive to cut him for at least 3-4 years. This year, Butler's cap number will be $5.5M, but then it jumps to $9.3M, $8.6M, $9.3M, $7.8M, $8.4M. :X

 

[Beerguzzler]

I'm not as down as you are as Connor as a backup ILB

I'm not really down on Connor. I was simply commenting on how the players graded out at PFF. Connor actually had a positive rating against the run but was awful in coverage, which was the exact opposite of Teo. But Connor was still an order of magnitude better than Butler.Is there reason to hope that Butler gets better? His contract is looking like a massive bust at this point, but nobody talks much about that.

The third CB matters to me much more than the third ILB. That's why the Jimmy Wilson isn't very exciting as a signing but in a world where Shareece Wright signs for $3-4mil/season ANY CB is going to get paid.

But Wilson was apparently signed to start at SS, not to be the third CB. Steve Williams looked solid in limited snaps last season. Is he now the third corner?

Not much to say with re: to Butler. He's been awful since getting big bucks. Can't cut him, just have to hope he comes into camp hungry and ready to get back to being the beast he was pre-contract.

Butler wasn't good even before he got the big bucks. PFF graded him as the #45 ILB out of 55 who played at least 25% of their teams' snaps in 2013, with negative grades for pass rushing, coverage, and run defense. Also, to that point, he had never played more than 731 snaps in a season, so he had not even been a full time player.

I questioned in last year's thread why everyone seemed so anxious for the team to lock him up, and everyone who responded seemed to hand wave his 2013 performance. Unfortunately, he was much worse in 2014.

To give him that albatross of a contract is Telesco's worst move as Chargers GM. The structure of the contract makes it prohibitive to cut him for at least 3-4 years. This year, Butler's cap number will be $5.5M, but then it jumps to $9.3M, $8.6M, $9.3M, $7.8M, $8.4M. :X

It's actually a 3 year deal.

 

[Bruce Hammond]

It's actually a 3 year deal.

Not according to contract details here. Signed through 2020.

2/28/2014: Signed a seven-year, $51.8 million contract. The deal included an $11.15 million signing bonus. Another $4.2 million is available through incentives. 2015: $3.25 million, 2016: $4.65 million, 2017: $4 million (+ $12 million option bonus), 2018: $4.65 million, 2019: $5.35 million, 2020: $6 million, 2021: Free Agent

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5883/donald-butler

 

[Tau837]

I'm not as down as you are as Connor as a backup ILB

I'm not really down on Connor. I was simply commenting on how the players graded out at PFF. Connor actually had a positive rating against the run but was awful in coverage, which was the exact opposite of Teo. But Connor was still an order of magnitude better than Butler.Is there reason to hope that Butler gets better? His contract is looking like a massive bust at this point, but nobody talks much about that.

The third CB matters to me much more than the third ILB. That's why the Jimmy Wilson isn't very exciting as a signing but in a world where Shareece Wright signs for $3-4mil/season ANY CB is going to get paid.

But Wilson was apparently signed to start at SS, not to be the third CB. Steve Williams looked solid in limited snaps last season. Is he now the third corner?

Not much to say with re: to Butler. He's been awful since getting big bucks. Can't cut him, just have to hope he comes into camp hungry and ready to get back to being the beast he was pre-contract.

Butler wasn't good even before he got the big bucks. PFF graded him as the #45 ILB out of 55 who played at least 25% of their teams' snaps in 2013, with negative grades for pass rushing, coverage, and run defense. Also, to that point, he had never played more than 731 snaps in a season, so he had not even been a full time player.

I questioned in last year's thread why everyone seemed so anxious for the team to lock him up, and everyone who responded seemed to hand wave his 2013 performance. Unfortunately, he was much worse in 2014.

To give him that albatross of a contract is Telesco's worst move as Chargers GM. The structure of the contract makes it prohibitive to cut him for at least 3-4 years. This year, Butler's cap number will be $5.5M, but then it jumps to $9.3M, $8.6M, $9.3M, $7.8M, $8.4M. :X

It's actually a 3 year deal.

Yes and no. Contract details here.

Next offseason, they have to decide whether or not to pick up his $12M option. If they don't, the remainder of the contract is voided. That is why it is technically true that it can be a 3 year deal.

However, look at the dead cap money. It is hard to separate out the scenarios from the chart, but I believe if they do not pick up his option next season, they will eat about $14M in dead cap money. That would consist of the last three years of his amortized $11.15M signing bonus, about $6.7M, plus the remainder of his $11.15M in guaranteed salary, $7.15M. There are also some escalators in the deal, but presumably if they decide not to exercise his option, his performance will not have triggered those...

This is why I am so critical of the contract. Its structure makes it prohibitive to cut him, something teams need to avoid in their contracts unless the player is truly elite.

I'd be happy to be wrong about this, so please explain if I'm missing something.

 

[Beerguzzler]

Nope. The 12 million is wrongly included in that dead cap space number. They would only eat about 4.4 million in dead cap space. That 12 mil comes off that dead cap space number.

It's a 3 year deal or a 7 year deal. Basically protected the team if he never reached his potential, which clearly he didn't.

Here's the snippet:

But essentially, according to Rapoport's report, the contract is a three-year deal worth nearly $20 million, with $12 million guaranteed.

According to Rapoport, Butler's contract has a team option after the third year, in which the Chargers can pick up the final four years of the contract at an average between $8 million and $9.5 million per year. That portion of the contract includes another $15 million in guaranteed money.

Now while he's probably a lock to make the team this year, I doubt they will pay him the almost 5 million in salary next season if he sucks again. The 11 million bonus is gone, they don't need to throw more money away. The only guaranteed salary his first 3 years was from last season. This years and next aren't guaranteed.

 

[Tau837]

Nope. The 12 million is wrongly included in that dead cap space number. They would only eat about 4.4 million in dead cap space. That 12 mil comes off that dead cap space number.

It's a 3 year deal or a 7 year deal. Basically protected the team if he never reached his potential, which clearly he didn't.

Here's the snippet:

But essentially, according to Rapoport's report, the contract is a three-year deal worth nearly $20 million, with $12 million guaranteed.

According to Rapoport, Butler's contract has a team option after the third year, in which the Chargers can pick up the final four years of the contract at an average between $8 million and $9.5 million per year. That portion of the contract includes another $15 million in guaranteed money.

Now while he's probably a lock to make the team this year, I doubt they will pay him the almost 5 million in salary next season if he sucks again. The 11 million bonus is gone, they don't need to throw more money away. The only guaranteed salary his first 3 years was from last season. This years and next aren't guaranteed.

OK, this makes more sense if true. Both spotrac and overthecap.com are showing the same thing, so it is surprising that they are both wrong, but it is a relief. Even in the scenario you laid out, if he plays poorly again in 2015, cutting him before next season would still leave just under $7M in dead cap money.

 

[Beerguzzler]

Nope. The 12 million is wrongly included in that dead cap space number. They would only eat about 4.4 million in dead cap space. That 12 mil comes off that dead cap space number.

It's a 3 year deal or a 7 year deal. Basically protected the team if he never reached his potential, which clearly he didn't.

Here's the snippet:

But essentially, according to Rapoport's report, the contract is a three-year deal worth nearly $20 million, with $12 million guaranteed.

According to Rapoport, Butler's contract has a team option after the third year, in which the Chargers can pick up the final four years of the contract at an average between $8 million and $9.5 million per year. That portion of the contract includes another $15 million in guaranteed money.

Now while he's probably a lock to make the team this year, I doubt they will pay him the almost 5 million in salary next season if he sucks again. The 11 million bonus is gone, they don't need to throw more money away. The only guaranteed salary his first 3 years was from last season. This years and next aren't guaranteed.

OK, this makes more sense if true. Both spotrac and overthecap.com are showing the same thing, so it is surprising that they are both wrong, but it is a relief. Even in the scenario you laid out, if he plays poorly again in 2015, cutting him before next season would still leave just under $7M in dead cap money.

Yea, ideally he plays well enough to warrant keeping him on the team, but I have my doubts. I do think he gets this year, but seeing that the salary of the 3rd year isn't guaranteed, I do think they cut him and use that 4.5 mil or whatever it was for another player of comparable value.

That said, if we do draft an ILB and he beats him out, I don't think they would hesitate to cut him. It does accelerate the cap hit, but given that it doesn't look like we will be using all that cap room this offseason, it may not matter. Such a damn shame, he looked awesome playing next to Spikes a few years ago. Been all down hill since.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Nope. The 12 million is wrongly included in that dead cap space number. They would only eat about 4.4 million in dead cap space. That 12 mil comes off that dead cap space number.

It's a 3 year deal or a 7 year deal. Basically protected the team if he never reached his potential, which clearly he didn't.

Here's the snippet:

But essentially, according to Rapoport's report, the contract is a three-year deal worth nearly $20 million, with $12 million guaranteed.

According to Rapoport, Butler's contract has a team option after the third year, in which the Chargers can pick up the final four years of the contract at an average between $8 million and $9.5 million per year. That portion of the contract includes another $15 million in guaranteed money.

Now while he's probably a lock to make the team this year, I doubt they will pay him the almost 5 million in salary next season if he sucks again. The 11 million bonus is gone, they don't need to throw more money away. The only guaranteed salary his first 3 years was from last season. This years and next aren't guaranteed.

OK, this makes more sense if true. Both spotrac and overthecap.com are showing the same thing, so it is surprising that they are both wrong, but it is a relief. Even in the scenario you laid out, if he plays poorly again in 2015, cutting him before next season would still leave just under $7M in dead cap money.

If you click on the actual number in the dead cap line (see how it's underlined?) - there is a much smaller number.

 

[B Maverick]

Reports are Stevie Johnson is signing in SD. 3 year deal

 

[Tau837]

Reports are Stevie Johnson is signing in SD. 3 year deal

Assuming the money is reasonable:

 

[Tau837]

Nope. The 12 million is wrongly included in that dead cap space number. They would only eat about 4.4 million in dead cap space. That 12 mil comes off that dead cap space number.

It's a 3 year deal or a 7 year deal. Basically protected the team if he never reached his potential, which clearly he didn't.

Here's the snippet:

But essentially, according to Rapoport's report, the contract is a three-year deal worth nearly $20 million, with $12 million guaranteed.

According to Rapoport, Butler's contract has a team option after the third year, in which the Chargers can pick up the final four years of the contract at an average between $8 million and $9.5 million per year. That portion of the contract includes another $15 million in guaranteed money.

Now while he's probably a lock to make the team this year, I doubt they will pay him the almost 5 million in salary next season if he sucks again. The 11 million bonus is gone, they don't need to throw more money away. The only guaranteed salary his first 3 years was from last season. This years and next aren't guaranteed.

OK, this makes more sense if true. Both spotrac and overthecap.com are showing the same thing, so it is surprising that they are both wrong, but it is a relief. Even in the scenario you laid out, if he plays poorly again in 2015, cutting him before next season would still leave just under $7M in dead cap money.

If you click on the actual number in the dead cap line (see how it's underlined?) - there is a much smaller number.

I understood that to be showing the post June 1 number, because post June 1 the hit gets spread over 2 years IIRC.

 

[Tau837]

Just one more data point on Crabtree. He was in the top 10 in failed completions and failed completion rate last season. Interesting article.

 

[Gr00vus]

Reports are Stevie Johnson is signing in SD. 3 year deal

Welcome aboard. Should be a solid signing assuming the contract is reasonable.

 

[Bucky86]

Reports are Stevie Johnson is signing in SD. 3 year deal

Welcome aboard. Should be a solid signing assuming the contract is reasonable.

$10 million over 3 years. Can earn up to $12 million

 

[Gr00vus]

Reports are Stevie Johnson is signing in SD. 3 year deal

Welcome aboard. Should be a solid signing assuming the contract is reasonable.

$10 million over 3 years. Can earn up to $12 million

I guess we'll see how much of it is guaranteed. Still better than paying $15M for Royal like Chicago did.

 

[Bruce Hammond]

Ruh roh Rivers fans in SD:

Philip Rivers - QB - Chargers
Walk-year QB Philip Rivers intends to play out the final year of his contract without a new deal.
"Honestly, nothing," was Rivers' response when asked if there was anything that would change his mind. Rivers has also changed course on the Chargers' stadium issue. Previously, he said it wouldn't affect talks. Now he says it will. "What we’ve established here with my growing family is hard to recreate," Rivers said. "The good thing is I’m not under contract in a year where we’d potentially be in Los Angeles." For his part, Chargers GM Tom Telesco declined to unequivocally say that Rivers wouldn't be dealt. "I don’t like Philip as our QB, I love him," Telesco said. "And I’ll go to war with him." Per reporter Kevin Acee, there's been speculation in league circles that the Bolts could target Oregon QB Marcus Mariota. Rivers' San Diego status is a back-burner issue that could begin to boil.

Source: Union-Tribune San Diego
Mar 17 - 6:33 PM


Marcus Mariota - QB - Player
According to the Union-Tribune San Diego, there's been league-wide speculation that the Chargers "could be serious" about going after Oregon QB Marcus Mariota.
Reporter Kevin Acee's report cites "numerous people in and around the league." The Bolts have scheduled a private workout with Mariota next month. It's unlikely Mariota would fall to the Chargers at No. 17, so a trade up would likely be necessary to secure his services. Per Acee, the speculation comes as Philip Rivers' Chargers future is up in the air. Rivers intends to play out the final year of his deal without an extension, while GM Tom Telesco wouldn't offer a blanket denial that Rivers could eventually be traded.
Related: Chargers

Source: Union-Tribune San Diego
Mar 17 - 6:42 PM

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Ruh roh Rivers fans in SD:

Philip Rivers - QB - Chargers
Walk-year QB Philip Rivers intends to play out the final year of his contract without a new deal.
"Honestly, nothing," was Rivers' response when asked if there was anything that would change his mind. Rivers has also changed course on the Chargers' stadium issue. Previously, he said it wouldn't affect talks. Now he says it will. "What we’ve established here with my growing family is hard to recreate," Rivers said. "The good thing is I’m not under contract in a year where we’d potentially be in Los Angeles." For his part, Chargers GM Tom Telesco declined to unequivocally say that Rivers wouldn't be dealt. "I don’t like Philip as our QB, I love him," Telesco said. "And I’ll go to war with him." Per reporter Kevin Acee, there's been speculation in league circles that the Bolts could target Oregon QB Marcus Mariota. Rivers' San Diego status is a back-burner issue that could begin to boil.

Source: Union-Tribune San Diego
Mar 17 - 6:33 PM


Marcus Mariota - QB - Player
According to the Union-Tribune San Diego, there's been league-wide speculation that the Chargers "could be serious" about going after Oregon QB Marcus Mariota.
Reporter Kevin Acee's report cites "numerous people in and around the league." The Bolts have scheduled a private workout with Mariota next month. It's unlikely Mariota would fall to the Chargers at No. 17, so a trade up would likely be necessary to secure his services. Per Acee, the speculation comes as Philip Rivers' Chargers future is up in the air. Rivers intends to play out the final year of his deal without an extension, while GM Tom Telesco wouldn't offer a blanket denial that Rivers could eventually be traded.
Related: Chargers

Source: Union-Tribune San Diego
Mar 17 - 6:42 PM

oooff

figures

I often wonder why I am a fan of this franchise

 

[Bucky86]

Ruh roh Rivers fans in SD:

Philip Rivers - QB - Chargers
Walk-year QB Philip Rivers intends to play out the final year of his contract without a new deal.
"Honestly, nothing," was Rivers' response when asked if there was anything that would change his mind. Rivers has also changed course on the Chargers' stadium issue. Previously, he said it wouldn't affect talks. Now he says it will. "What we’ve established here with my growing family is hard to recreate," Rivers said. "The good thing is I’m not under contract in a year where we’d potentially be in Los Angeles." For his part, Chargers GM Tom Telesco declined to unequivocally say that Rivers wouldn't be dealt. "I don’t like Philip as our QB, I love him," Telesco said. "And I’ll go to war with him." Per reporter Kevin Acee, there's been speculation in league circles that the Bolts could target Oregon QB Marcus Mariota. Rivers' San Diego status is a back-burner issue that could begin to boil.

Source: Union-Tribune San Diego
Mar 17 - 6:33 PM


Marcus Mariota - QB - Player
According to the Union-Tribune San Diego, there's been league-wide speculation that the Chargers "could be serious" about going after Oregon QB Marcus Mariota.
Reporter Kevin Acee's report cites "numerous people in and around the league." The Bolts have scheduled a private workout with Mariota next month. It's unlikely Mariota would fall to the Chargers at No. 17, so a trade up would likely be necessary to secure his services. Per Acee, the speculation comes as Philip Rivers' Chargers future is up in the air. Rivers intends to play out the final year of his deal without an extension, while GM Tom Telesco wouldn't offer a blanket denial that Rivers could eventually be traded.
Related: Chargers

Source: Union-Tribune San Diego
Mar 17 - 6:42 PM

oooff

figures

I often wonder why I am a fan of this franchise

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Rivers won't be traded. He's the best option the Chargers have in 2015, and he's not under contract beyond that. You can't trade a player who isn't under contract, and Rivers isn't going to do a re-sign-and-trade deal when he could hit the open market instead.

I mean, I applaud Telesco for not saying that he won't trade Rivers, because why give information away for free? But he's not going to trade Rivers.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I'm starting to lose respect for Acee. He was much better as a simple beat reporter. Now that he's paid to speculate and opine, he comes off poorly more often than not, IMO.

 

[tommyGunZ]

W/re to Rivers, I'd be blown away if he isn't signed to a long term deal before the season starts.

 

[Bruce Hammond]

I'm starting to lose respect for Acee. He was much better as a simple beat reporter. Now that he's paid to speculate and opine, he comes off poorly more often than not, IMO.

Regarding the article by him that I posted above, he came off really pissy and annoyed, as though it was some personal affront to him, the fan, that SD wasn't keeping up with IND in the free agent market. Different teams, different paths, different circumstances but that didn't seem to matter to him. He just seemed to be in a bad mood when writing that article.

 

[Gr00vus]

Trading up for Mariotta would be idiotic. They need more draft picks, not less. And they certainly don't need to be shedding draft picks to get a marginal QB prospect.

 

[Tau837]

Trading up for Mariotta would be idiotic. They need more draft picks, not less. And they certainly don't need to be shedding draft picks to get a marginal QB prospect.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Trading up for Mariotta would be idiotic. They need more draft picks, not less. And they certainly don't need to be shedding draft picks to get a marginal QB prospect.

Hell I know Phil is old but I wouldnt do a straight swap of Rivers for the #2 pick. I know NFL draft values skew in favor of picks but dang I cant see giving up Phil plus picks for mariota.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Hell I know Phil is old but I wouldnt do a straight swap of Rivers for the #2 pick. I know NFL draft values skew in favor of picks but dang I cant see giving up Phil plus picks for mariota.

Rivers for one year may be less valuable than a much cheaper Mariota for five years.

I know I said above that Rivers won't be traded. But if the Titans were to offer the #2 pick straight up, I'd take that back. There's no way the Titans would do that, though, unless they had an agreement in place to extend Rivers, and I don't see that happening because I think Rivers would prefer to hit the open market if he's not going to stay in San Diego.

 

[BoltBacker]

Sorry to play the cynic card here, but does anyone else find it comical that this talk about SD's interest in Mariota and Rivers talking about this being the last year of his contract come A DAY after Roethlisberger signs an extension for $35mil in 2015, and $53 million for the 2015-16 seasons combined? Who are the sources that Mariota is suddenly an option for SD moving forward?

I think all this talk is spinning out from an agent that is upset Rivers will make less than $40mil over the next two seasons.... IF HE GETS FRANCHISED WHICH IS THE OPTION OF THE TEAM. All this sudden talk seems to ignore this fact....

https://fnews.com/simms-dont-be-surprised-if-rivers-leaves-chargers-for-vikings-or-titans-in-16-goea

... and drips of agent speak. Yeah, and there are half a dozen teams willing to offer Knight 2yr/$10mil, but when it comes to actually signing the contract it's a 1yr/$4mil deal. So many outlets are desperate to break NFL news suddenly agent whispers are "stories".

BTW, I believe PIT gained one million dollars in cap room to extend Big Ben to that ridiculous deal so earlier talk about an extension saving SD a lot of cap space this season seems way off to me. Don't get me wrong, Big Ben has won multiple SB's so if PIT wants to reward him for past playoff success I have no problem with that. This artificial "BUZZ" about the SD QB situation I do have a problem with. As I've said before SD will be paying Rivers franchise QB money this year. they have the option to pay him franchise QB money next year. For that matter if SD won their first SB the team would have the option to pay him a lot more and franchise tag him a second time.

All the cards are in the hands of the team right now, even if Big Ben gets a new contract and that rattles the cage of Rivers agent. The time for Rivers to earn his big extension by winning a SB is the next year or two.

 

[Tau837]

The time for Rivers to earn his big extension by winning a SB is the next year or two.

Telesco has a lot of work to do to give Rivers a true opportunity to do this. The roster outside of the QB position is far from Super Bowl caliber.

 

[BoltBacker]

The time for Rivers to earn his big extension by winning a SB is the next year or two.

Telesco has a lot of work to do to give Rivers a true opportunity to do this. The roster outside of the QB position is far from Super Bowl caliber.

Agreed, which is the reason giving Rivers a Big Ben type extension would be ridiculous.

 

[tommyGunZ]

insane that Telesco has let it get this far. Rivers is the greatest Charger in the history of the franchise and embodies everything you would want in a leader in the field, in the locker room, and in the community. When you have an elite guy like this, you pay him whatever it takes to stay.

 

[BoltBacker]

Let it get how far? What do you think might happen?

 

[Tau837]

The time for Rivers to earn his big extension by winning a SB is the next year or two.

Telesco has a lot of work to do to give Rivers a true opportunity to do this. The roster outside of the QB position is far from Super Bowl caliber.

Agreed, which is the reason giving Rivers a Big Ben type extension would be ridiculous.

Who said anything about giving him an extension similar to Roethlisberger's besides you?

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

insane that Telesco has let it get this far. Rivers is the greatest Charger in the history of the franchise and embodies everything you would want in a leader in the field, in the locker room, and in the community. When you have an elite guy like this, you pay him whatever it takes to stay.

UM no he is not.

However I think they should re-sign him

for the record LT and Seau are/will be first ballot HOF players. and IMO Rivers is behind Fouts and Winslow as well.

5th greatest at best and I dont even have an opinion on Bambi

 

[BoltBacker]

The time for Rivers to earn his big extension by winning a SB is the next year or two.

Telesco has a lot of work to do to give Rivers a true opportunity to do this. The roster outside of the QB position is far from Super Bowl caliber.

Agreed, which is the reason giving Rivers a Big Ben type extension would be ridiculous.

Who said anything about giving him an extension similar to Roethlisberger's besides you?

Most of the media outlets I read leading up to FA that suggested both Ben and Rivers should be extended also thought their contracts would be comperable. Do you think Rivers is a tier better or a tier worse than Ben?

Btw, I would be all for Rivers to take a Manning type of deal.... Take a $4mil paycut and earn it back if he has better, or in this case ANY, playoff results but I doubt very much that Rivers would accept it.

 

[Tau837]

IMO Rivers is in the same tier as Roethlisberger. They have different strengths and weaknesses. Behind a good pass blocking OL, I think Rivers is better. Behind a bad pass blocking OL, Roethlisberger may be better.

I don't know how Roethlisberger's extension will reset the market, but here are the 2015 QB cap hits:

$27.8M Romo

$26.4M Brees

$19.8M Eli

$19.5M Ryan

$18.3M Rodgers

$17.7M Stafford

$17.5M Peyton

$17.4M Rivers

$17.2M Roethlisberger

$16.5M Cutler

Obviously, there are multiple young QBs like Luck and Wilson who will soon jump ahead of most of these guys. Roethlisberger's average salary is $21.8M for the new contract. I think if Rivers plays beyond 2015, which I expect, he will be earning a similar salary and deserves it based upon what his peers are making.

 

[BoltBacker]

IMO Rivers is in the same tier as Roethlisberger. They have different strengths and weaknesses. Behind a good pass blocking OL, I think Rivers is better. Behind a bad pass blocking OL, Roethlisberger may be better.

Agreed.

In the past I think Rivers was thought to be the better statistical QB but Ben had the rings but that changed last year. Both are 33 and have been beat to hell behind poor OL's over their career. Ben signed a 5yr/$99mil deal that pays him $53 million for the '15+'16 seasons, and $35million for the '15 season alone....

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2015/03/16/Roethlisberger-to-earn-35-million-in-2015-53-million-in-first-two-years-pittsburgh-steelers/stories/201503160130

I doubt Rivers would sign an extension for much less than that.

 

[Tau837]

IMO Rivers is in the same tier as Roethlisberger. They have different strengths and weaknesses. Behind a good pass blocking OL, I think Rivers is better. Behind a bad pass blocking OL, Roethlisberger may be better.

Agreed.

In the past I think Rivers was thought to be the better statistical QB but Ben had the rings but that changed last year. Both are 33 and have been beat to hell behind poor OL's over their career. Ben signed a 5yr/$99mil deal that pays him $53 million for the '15+'16 seasons, and $35million for the '15 season alone....

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2015/03/16/Roethlisberger-to-earn-35-million-in-2015-53-million-in-first-two-years-pittsburgh-steelers/stories/201503160130

I doubt Rivers would sign an extension for much less than that.

Agree that Rivers probably expects and deserves to make something similar to Roethlisberger's average salary of $21.8M. It may not be similarly front-loaded.

 

[BoltBacker]

I thought the Patrick Robinson signing today for 1yr/$2mil was one of those great, quiet signings that the national media doesn't talk about but could end up paying huge dividends at some point during the season. He may have been inconsistent over the course of his career but he's replacing Shareece Wright who was pretty consistently bad. His contract may end up being half the price of Wright in SF as well. Great move by Telesco here. I wasn't all that excited about the 4yr/$36mil deal they gave to Flowers, especially after Perrish Cox signed for 3yr/$15mil in TEN, but both Wilson and Robinson add some much needed depth to the DB's at reasonable prices.

Some other veteran names that won't get payed in this FA market due to injury concerns but could definitely play roles with this team are still floating around out there;

Ridley(RB), obviously. We have already talked about him a lot. It's still all about $ but I think he fits the role McCoy wants for that position perfectly. Still a lot of alternative vets out there but at this point he must not be expecting much more than $2mil, right?

Jake Long(OT), with so few OT options on the market I'm surprised there has been so little interest in him. He'll turn 30 before the season but even if he only played the ~12games/season he averaged with STL that would be a huge boost to the OL at a bargain price. Dunlap, Franklin, NEW CENTER, Fluker, Long.... would be the best OL SD has had in a long, long time and even have some depth to it if there were injuries.

Louis Delmas(SS), again often injured otherwise he wouldn't be cheap but they are running out of legitimate options both in FA and there is little help in the draft. Wilson makes a good backup plan at S, starter... eh, not so much.

Lance Briggs(ILB/OLB), probably only plays the role of an early down run stuffer at this stage of his career but would play that role at a fraction of the price Jarrett Johnson was scheduled to get paid. At this stage of FA I don't think there are many risky contracts being signed. I think he's versatile to add depth at both ILB and OLB.

Anthony Spencer(OLB), Again he's only a situational player but the team got 2 sacks from Attaochu and 4 from Ingram last season. It got 4 sacks in two seasons from Freeney. Spencer just turned 31 and I would imagine would be extremely low risk contract-wise.

All these guys seem very low risk, possibly high reward to me. Briggs is the only that is really OLD and in his case he has a specific part time skill that the team needs. They may not even make the roster but why not at least give them a shot? What is there to lose?

 

[BoltBacker]

IMO Rivers is in the same tier as Roethlisberger. They have different strengths and weaknesses. Behind a good pass blocking OL, I think Rivers is better. Behind a bad pass blocking OL, Roethlisberger may be better.

Agreed.

In the past I think Rivers was thought to be the better statistical QB but Ben had the rings but that changed last year. Both are 33 and have been beat to hell behind poor OL's over their career. Ben signed a 5yr/$99mil deal that pays him $53 million for the '15+'16 seasons, and $35million for the '15 season alone....

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2015/03/16/Roethlisberger-to-earn-35-million-in-2015-53-million-in-first-two-years-pittsburgh-steelers/stories/201503160130

I doubt Rivers would sign an extension for much less than that.

Agree that Rivers probably expects and deserves to make something similar to Roethlisberger's average salary of $21.8M. It may not be similarly front-loaded.

So he'll turn 34 during this season...

34yo/$17.5mil

35yo/~$19mil Franchise Tag

36yo/~$23mil SECOND Franchise Tag(@120% previous figure)

...so the three year average of just franchise tagging him through his mid-30's is going to be below ~$20mil/season.

 

[cstu]

IMO Rivers is in the same tier as Roethlisberger. They have different strengths and weaknesses. Behind a good pass blocking OL, I think Rivers is better. Behind a bad pass blocking OL, Roethlisberger may be better.

Agreed.

In the past I think Rivers was thought to be the better statistical QB but Ben had the rings but that changed last year. Both are 33 and have been beat to hell behind poor OL's over their career. Ben signed a 5yr/$99mil deal that pays him $53 million for the '15+'16 seasons, and $35million for the '15 season alone....

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2015/03/16/Roethlisberger-to-earn-35-million-in-2015-53-million-in-first-two-years-pittsburgh-steelers/stories/201503160130

I doubt Rivers would sign an extension for much less than that.

Agree that Rivers probably expects and deserves to make something similar to Roethlisberger's average salary of $21.8M. It may not be similarly front-loaded.

So he'll turn 34 during this season...

34yo/$17.5mil

35yo/~$19mil Franchise Tag

36yo/~$23mil SECOND Franchise Tag(@120% previous figure)

...so the three year average of just franchise tagging him through his mid-30's is going to be below ~$20mil/season.

Sounds good to me.

 

[Tau837]

IMO Rivers is in the same tier as Roethlisberger. They have different strengths and weaknesses. Behind a good pass blocking OL, I think Rivers is better. Behind a bad pass blocking OL, Roethlisberger may be better.

Agreed.

In the past I think Rivers was thought to be the better statistical QB but Ben had the rings but that changed last year. Both are 33 and have been beat to hell behind poor OL's over their career. Ben signed a 5yr/$99mil deal that pays him $53 million for the '15+'16 seasons, and $35million for the '15 season alone....

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2015/03/16/Roethlisberger-to-earn-35-million-in-2015-53-million-in-first-two-years-pittsburgh-steelers/stories/201503160130

I doubt Rivers would sign an extension for much less than that.

Agree that Rivers probably expects and deserves to make something similar to Roethlisberger's average salary of $21.8M. It may not be similarly front-loaded.

So he'll turn 34 during this season...

34yo/$17.5mil

35yo/~$19mil Franchise Tag

36yo/~$23mil SECOND Franchise Tag(@120% previous figure)

...so the three year average of just franchise tagging him through his mid-30's is going to be below ~$20mil/season.

I think you are underestimating the value of the franchise tag. For 2015, the QB franchise tag value was set at $18.5M. That was prior to Roethlisberger's extension and obviously prior to likely big dollar extensions for Luck and Wilson.

In 2014, it was $16.9M. In 2013, it was $14.9M. So it seems reasonable to assume next year's QB franchise tag will be $20M+. If it is $20M, then franchising him a second time will cost $24M.

I don't really get referencing a "three year average of just franchise tagging him" when you are showing two years of franchise tagging.

Under Roethlisberger's previous contract, he would have had a cap hit in 2015 of $18.4M. He signed a 4 year extension. His 2015 cap hit will now be lower -- $17.2M. His average cap hit for 2016-2019 will be $22.1M. As shown above, tagging Rivers twice will likely carry a similar average.

The advantage to the team of pursuing this path is that it will have similar cap effect with less risk to the team if Rivers' play falls off. But there are potential disadvantages: the team will not be able to tag anyone else (e.g., Weddle) and it could harm the relationship between Rivers and the organization. I assume the latter issue is why it is rare that a QB is franchise tagged. It was used on Brees, but only temporarily and was superseded by a new 5 year contract. Same exact situation for Vick in 2011. Has any QB ever actually played a season under the franchise tag?

The other thing is, if the team envisions Rivers playing for the Chargers in 2017 and beyond, better to lock him up now rather than tag him twice and have to pay higher market value then.

 

[BoltBacker]

I think you are underestimating the value of the franchise tag. For 2015, the QB franchise tag value was set at $18.5M. That was prior to Roethlisberger's extension and obviously prior to likely big dollar extensions for Luck and Wilson.

In 2014, it was $16.9M. In 2013, it was $14.9M. So it seems reasonable to assume next year's QB franchise tag will be $20M+. If it is $20M, then franchising him a second time will cost $24M.

I don't really get referencing a "three year average of just franchise tagging him" when you are showing two years of franchise tagging.

.

.

.

The other thing is, if the team envisions Rivers playing for the Chargers in 2017 and beyond, better to lock him up now rather than tag him twice and have to pay higher market value then.

The reason I said three year average of just franchise tagging him is because they don't have to extend his contract, they can just use the franchise tag and he will be playing for the San Diego Chargers in 2015, 2016, 2017. In 2015 he is under contract so there is no need to franchise tag on him. In 2016 they can keep him just by using the franchise tag. In 2017 they can keep him just by using the franchise tag on him. In the next three seasons(2015, 2016, 2017) SD can keep Rivers if they choose just by using the franchise tag, they have no reason to give him a contract extension.

So you are saying I'm wrong that simply franchising him wouldn't cost just under $20 million over the three years(again 2015, 2016, and 2017). You are saying it's more likely to cost $20million in 2016 and $24million in 2017 to use the franchise tag those two years. (shrug) Ok. So over those three years the average would be closer to $20.5 million.

So now the hand wringing is over what will happen in 2018 when Rivers will be turning 37?

 

[Tau837]

I think you are underestimating the value of the franchise tag. For 2015, the QB franchise tag value was set at $18.5M. That was prior to Roethlisberger's extension and obviously prior to likely big dollar extensions for Luck and Wilson.

In 2014, it was $16.9M. In 2013, it was $14.9M. So it seems reasonable to assume next year's QB franchise tag will be $20M+. If it is $20M, then franchising him a second time will cost $24M.

I don't really get referencing a "three year average of just franchise tagging him" when you are showing two years of franchise tagging.

.

.

.

The other thing is, if the team envisions Rivers playing for the Chargers in 2017 and beyond, better to lock him up now rather than tag him twice and have to pay higher market value then.

The reason I said three year average of just franchise tagging him is because they don't have to extend his contract, they can just use the franchise tag and he will be playing for the San Diego Chargers in 2015, 2016, 2017. In 2015 he is under contract so there is no need to franchise tag on him. In 2016 they can keep him just by using the franchise tag. In 2017 they can keep him just by using the franchise tag on him. In the next three seasons(2015, 2016, 2017) SD can keep Rivers if they choose just by using the franchise tag, they have no reason to give him a contract extension. So you are saying I'm wrong that simply franchising him wouldn't cost just under $20 million over the three years(again 2015, 2016, and 2017). You are saying it's more likely to cost $20million in 2016 and $24million in 2017 to use the franchise tag those two years. (shrug) Ok. So over those three years the average would be closer to $20.5 million.

So now the hand wringing is over what will happen in 2018 when Rivers will be turning 37?

First off, who is hand wringing?

Second, why do you think that no QB has ever played a season under the franchise tag? Don't you think if your proposed approach is such a smart move, another team would have done it by now?

 

[cstu]

First off, who is hand wringing?

Second, why do you think that no QB has ever played a season under the franchise tag? Don't you think if your proposed approach is such a smart move, another team would have done it by now?

Brees played on the franchise tag in 2005.

 

[Tau837]

First off, who is hand wringing?

Second, why do you think that no QB has ever played a season under the franchise tag? Don't you think if your proposed approach is such a smart move, another team would have done it by now?

Brees played on the franchise tag in 2005.

OK, so there is one QB who has played under the tag. And he was tagged with the non-exclusive tag. I doubt the Chargers would use that tag on Rivers, but I suppose anything is possible.

I will rephrase. If planning to tag Rivers in 2016 and 2017 is such a good approach, why has no team ever used that approach? Why has no team even had a QB play one season under the exclusive tag? Why has no team even had a QB play one season under any tag since 2005?

 

[tommyGunZ]

Excellent read on Stevie Johnson. http://www.boltsfromtheblue.com/2015/3/19/8252463/is-stevie-johnson-an-upgrade-over-eddie-royal-san-diego-chargers

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Rivers is the greatest Charger in the history of the franchise.

Do Charger fans really feel this way? From an outsider perspective this seems a little over the top.