2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (4 Viewers)

[pollardsvision]

I love Duncan and think he would clearly be the best PF of all time but there's no way he's the best center ever.

"No way" seems a little strong. Obviously, there have been some amazing C's in league history and arguing which is best is mostly a circle-jerk. But I really don't see how Duncan can't be in that conversation.

19 seasons. 5 titles spanning Prime Shaq, Prime LeBron, Prime Kobe, Prime Dirk, and Prime Durant/Westbrook. Also while in a stacked Western Conference. Barring one colossal meltdown, he'd have beaten Prime LeBron in the Finals 3 times (twice with the stacked Heat). He had good teammates, but you'd never say he had a completely loaded roster. In fact, I think most would say his supporting cast probably would've been fairly average overall without him. Not to disparage Parker and Ginobili. Great players, but I bet most would agree they were very fortunate to end up on Duncan's Spurs.

I'm not going to argue Duncan over Russell/Wilt/Shaq/Kareem, but he's fairly clearly in the conversation, imo.

 

[coyote5]

Bit of the backstory for Timmy's arrival to Wake Forest from former Coach Odom. It's kind of nice.

Well according to Chris King, he's probably a first ballot HOFer.  How John Hammond doesn't have this guy on staff is beyond me.  Such astute!  Much talent evaluator!

 

[Kev4029]

But Casey. 

If they wanted an undersized 4, they would have kept Johnson. Carroll at the 4 doesn't make much sense over the course of the regular season; the odd game/playoffs sure, but no need for the wear and tear on him for 82 games. Patterson, for some odd reason, is terrible as a starter in Toronto and prefers coming off the bench. The starting job was given to him last summer but he was so terrible during pre-season that Scola took it from him. Yes, Luis Scola. 

PF: Sully / Patterson

C: JV / Poeltl / Bebe

Well, Scola is still out there ready to pounce on that job!

 

[Kev4029]

Here is a story from Etan Thomas about Tim Duncan that he posted on Facebook. I hope nothing bad ever comes out about Duncan, he seems like a genuinely good person.

Here is my Tim Duncan story

So we're playing the Spurs and I get the ball on the post. I inside pivot and sweep to the middle for my jump hook and he blocks it. So as we are running down the court he says to me "that was a good move but you have to get more into my body so you can either draw the foul or I can't block it". So I didn't know if he was talking noise or what so just kind of looked at him confused and said ok. Then, a few plays later I did it again got more into his body and he couldn't block it. I missed the shot and he looked at me and said much better and kept playing lol. I remember calling my boy Zee Chilton and telling him this story lol Tim Duncan is honestly one of the nicest guys in the NBA and one of the best power forwards ever. Respect

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Here is a story from Etan Thomas about Tim Duncan that he posted on Facebook. I hope nothing bad ever comes out about Duncan, he seems like a genuinely good person.

  Quote
Here is my Tim Duncan story

So we're playing the Spurs and I get the ball on the post. I inside pivot and sweep to the middle for my jump hook and he blocks it. So as we are running down the court he says to me "that was a good move but you have to get more into my body so you can either draw the foul or I can't block it". So I didn't know if he was talking noise or what so just kind of looked at him confused and said ok. Then, a few plays later I did it again got more into his body and he couldn't block it. I missed the shot and he looked at me and said much better and kept playing lol. I remember calling my boy Zee Chilton and telling him this story lol Tim Duncan is honestly one of the nicest guys in the NBA and one of the best power forwards ever. Respect

I think we've all heard this story before

 

[GOB]

Here is a story from Etan Thomas about Tim Duncan that he posted on Facebook. I hope nothing bad ever comes out about Duncan, he seems like a genuinely good person.

Never seen this before. Amazing. 

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Never seen this before. Amazing. 

LOL

 

[Capella]

Got to love Orlando's willingness to spend on complete and utter trash.

Just wait until the good players come next year.

God bless.

 what the ####? 9.5M over for this bull####?

 

[Capella]

Great story --- was just reviewing all of the goodness that is The Onion's Tim Duncan:  http://www.theonion.com/search?q=Tim+Duncan

http://www.theonion.com/article/tim-duncan-offers-legal-advice-to-wifes-divorce-la-32612

 

[General Malaise]

Great story --- was just reviewing all of the goodness that is The Onion's Tim Duncan:  http://www.theonion.com/search?q=Tim+Duncan

Rides off in the sunset at a safe and prudent speed.  Dying here.

 

[Fariq]

That is incredibly dorktastic that Duncan is having his retirement party at Applebee's.

 

[Tau837]

"No way" seems a little strong. Obviously, there have been some amazing C's in league history and arguing which is best is mostly a circle-jerk. But I really don't see how Duncan can't be in that conversation.

19 seasons. 5 titles spanning Prime Shaq, Prime LeBron, Prime Kobe, Prime Dirk, and Prime Durant/Westbrook. Also while in a stacked Western Conference. Barring one colossal meltdown, he'd have beaten Prime LeBron in the Finals 3 times (twice with the stacked Heat). He had good teammates, but you'd never say he had a completely loaded roster. In fact, I think most would say his supporting cast probably would've been fairly average overall without him. Not to disparage Parker and Ginobili. Great players, but I bet most would agree they were very fortunate to end up on Duncan's Spurs.

I'm not going to argue Duncan over Russell/Wilt/Shaq/Kareem, but he's fairly clearly in the conversation, imo.

If you aren't going to argue that Duncan is better than 4 other centers, he is fairly clearly not in the conversation for best center of all-time. Seems pretty straightforward.

 

[pollardsvision]

If you aren't going to argue that Duncan is better than 4 other centers, he is fairly clearly not in the conversation for best center of all-time. Seems pretty straightforward.

 Well, it's a "conversation" because there are a handful of players with a good case for that title. I was just saying Duncan is one of those handful of players. I don't know where I'd put Duncan (#3, I think), but I could see a case for anywhere from #1 to #5 (and I know some would put him lower).

NBA Center is a little different than SG or NFL WR. #3 or #4 SG or WR ever means you really aren't in the conversation. For NBA Center, you are.

 

[Kev4029]

Never seen this before. Amazing. 

Oops. That's hilarious. Not sure how I missed it up like 3 posts from mine.

 

[saintfool]

From Yahoo. Timmy was a Bears fan?! #thingsyoulearn

Michael Wright of ESPN said that Duncan always kept a Bears mini-helmet and box in his locker.The media asked him last year about John Fox being hired by the Bears, and Duncan clearly perked up and kept referring to the Bears as “we” during his answer.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

supportive friendships with more than 10,000 women

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Got to love Orlando's willingness to spend on complete and utter trash.

Just wait until the good players come next year.

God bless.

not sure of all of Portland's intricacies, but they kind of seem like they are even worse off now.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

man, Portland is capped out for next year, plus they will have to pony up for McCollum.

 

[Capella]

Am I crazy or are the magic locked into this crap roster? Green and Ibaka come off next year, but that's barely enough for one max guy that will turn them down anyways. 

 

[thecatch]

man, Portland is capped out for next year, plus they will have to pony up for McCollum.

Portland is basically already committed to paying the luxury tax for the next two seasons IIRC. 

 

[Capella]

Tim Duncan Assures Underage Draft Pick There Will Be Soda And Juice At Retirement Party

latest onion headline 

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Am I crazy or are the magic locked into this crap roster? Green and Ibaka come off next year, but that's barely enough for one max guy that will turn them down anyways. 

They only seem to have $53 mill committed for next year: http://www.basketballinsiders.com/orlando-magic-team-salary/

 

[SWC]

i love this thread title so hard right now take that to the bank brocappo

 

[Capella]

They only seem to have $53 mill committed for next year: http://www.basketballinsiders.com/orlando-magic-team-salary/

Yea but they'll add 12-13 for the young guys. 

They have enough to offer one max it seems like. 

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Yea but they'll add 12-13 for the young guys. 

They have enough to offer one max it seems like. 

Oh, right, I see with the Inclusive Total.  I thought it was 71 when on Spotrac, but that still showed Ilyasova and no Ibaka, so I had to try somewhere else.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

My son turned on the Food Network and they had Celebrity Cupcake Wars on....Swaggy P made it to the finals against Lea Thompson

 

[GOB]

Yea but they'll add 12-13 for the young guys. 

They have enough to offer one max it seems like. 

I'll have to double check, but I'm pretty sure moving Vucevic gets them two max spots or damn close to it. 

My biggest gripe is not taking Aldridge at 21/3 or more if need be over Biyombo. Also giving Augustin 4 years makes me punchy. However, they needed to push Elfrid.

 

[matuski]

Tim getting ejected by Crawford for laughing on the bench.

Tim's 21-20-10-8 statline game 6 2003 finals.. making or assisting 19 of the 34 field goals the spurs had all game.

The amazing shot no one remembers because Fisher made the next one.

Next to Barry Sanders.. Timmy has to be my favorite athlete.

 

[Rirruto]

I had to google the thread title because I legitimately thought it was something that could be true. I'm going to miss Duncan. I assume we'll never hear from him again. 

 

[Capella]

I had to google the thread title because I legitimately thought it was something that could be true. 

 

 

[Frostillicus]

Yeah I googled the Applebees thing too.

 

[Jayrod]

TIMMAH!!!

 

[saintfool]

I had to google the thread title because I legitimately thought it was something that could be true. I'm going to miss Duncan. I assume we'll never hear from him again. 

maybe he'll takeover the hosting duties of NPR's weekend edition?

 

[rodg12]

Scola to the Nets on a one year deal.  There goes that option for the Raps at the 4.  Sorry, Cliff.  Abe now dreaming up Scola/Brook Lopez deals, though!

 

[mr. furley]

for you non-redditor NBA fans

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/4seugo/years_in_the_making_elgin_baylor_scouting_video/

Based on counting his field goals made that I have available I estimate we have approximately 2 to 3% of his career field goals that exist on film. They are random pieces from Playoffs, All-Star, RS, and even a few college games. About 97% of what he ever did on the NBA court is missing so it's important to understand these aren't just straight highlights this is his general variety - though a few of the plays certainly are highlight material. I think the random nature of what exists is perhaps even more informative in the sense that it gives us a more rounded idea how he played the game of basketball. Made easier of course, by the fact that he did literally everything as he was and still is heralded by his peers as one of if not the greatest all around players to have ever graced the game of basketball. The debate when he was playing the game was between him and Oscar as to who was better all around. I have multiple examples of him scoring in every situation the NBA uses to organize points scored in the game of basketball based on their Play-type Statistics:

https://youtu.be/BqyNDsigbS4

• 0:00 - Part 1: Introduction and Physical Tools
  
• 8:36 - Part 2: Defense and Defensive Rebounding
  
• 15:10 - Part 3: Passing and Playmaking
  

Scoring Categorized by NBA Playtype Statistics

• 24:10 - Part 4: Offensive Transitions
  
• 31:28 - Part 5: Offensive Isolation
  
• 36:05 - Part 6: Pick & Roll: Ball Handler
  
• 40:42 - Part 7: Pick & Roll: Roll Man
  
• 41:30 - Part 8: Post-Ups
  
• 45:00 - Part 9: Offensive Spot Ups
  
• 50:04 - Part 10: Offensive Hand Offs
  
• 52:23 - Part 11: Offensive Cuts
  
• 53:00 - Part 12: Offensive Off Screens
  
• 53:15 - Part 13: Offensive Rebound (putbacks)
  

The amount of time to collect this footage took me about 5 years, and I spent the past year putting it together in this NBA play-type statistic format for all the fans of the game to enjoy and learn from. Thank you for anyone who checks it out. Take special note of Elgin Baylor's Passing, Transition, Isolation, P&R Ball Handling, Post-up, Spot-up, and Offensive Rebounding ability. Those categories in particular are what I notice he displays particularly elite all-time abilities at. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[Jayrod]

for you non-redditor NBA fans

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/4seugo/years_in_the_making_elgin_baylor_scouting_video/

As a ref, watching those officials and their positions and mechanics is hilarious.  I wouldn't get to work 3rd grade girls games today if I was out of position and moving like that.  They have absolutely zero sideline coverage and are way too close to the action to see much of anything.

Their signals are awesome as well...especially the and-1 windmill thingy which appears to be standard.

 

[Despyzer]

Steve Kerr said that Duncan is going out as a legitimate top-5 player of all time. How many guys (specifically) do you have in front of him?

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Steve Kerr said that Duncan is going out as a legitimate top-5 player of all time. How many guys (specifically) do you have in front of him?

I only have five: Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and LeBron.  IMO Duncan's career was greater than Magic's, Bird's, and Shaq's.  He was too good for too long at both ends of the floor.  

I can see a credible argument for Duncan as an all-time top 5 player.  If you think the era Wilt and Russell played in wasn't good enough to warrant real all-time consideration and/or think LeBron hasn't played long enough to eclipse Duncan's extraordinary longevity as an elite player, then sure.  I disagree, but I get it and wouldn't put forth a lot of energy arguing against it.  

Keep in mind when people like Kerr use terms like "top-5 of all time" they don't necessarily have their top 20-30 ranked in order.  It's just intended to be used as a superlative.  

 

[Tau837]

I only have five: Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, and LeBron.  IMO Duncan's career was greater than Magic's, Bird's, and Shaq's.  He was too good for too long at both ends of the floor.  

I can see a credible argument for Duncan as an all-time top 5 player.  If you think the era Wilt and Russell played in wasn't good enough to warrant real all-time consideration and/or think LeBron hasn't played long enough to eclipse Duncan's extraordinary longevity as an elite player, then sure.  I disagree, but I get it and wouldn't put forth a lot of energy arguing against it.  

Keep in mind when people like Kerr use terms like "top-5 of all time" they don't necessarily have their top 20-30 ranked in order.  It's just intended to be used as a superlative.  

I agree with those 5 ahead of Duncan. Lebron moved up after the recent championship.

Magic and Bird vs. Duncan are tough calls IMO. Their careers were both 6-7 seasons shorter, but more compelling IMO (1 more MVP each, more defining moments, credit for reviving league popularity). Duncan played longer, so he played through a decline due to aging, and Magic (HIV) and Bird (back) didn't really do that because their careers were cut short. Then again, he picked up a couple more titles and a number of milestones in doing so; had that not happened, I doubt anyone would rank him above Magic and Bird.

Certainly, I think it is pretty clear these are the top 8 players of all time. To some degree, it just comes down to splitting hairs to sort them into a specific order, though some choices are clearer than others.

 

[Abraham]

Two good posts.  I do think that the gap between Duncan and Shaq isn't that large. 4 rings and 1 MVP and complete and utter offensive domination vs. 5, 2 and long term consistency... 

So to me things don't get interesting until 10 (Oscar, Hakeem, or west?)

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Two good posts.  I do think that the gap between Duncan and Shaq isn't that large. 4 rings and 1 MVP and complete and utter offensive domination vs. 5, 2 and long term consistency... 

So to me things don't get interesting until 10 (Oscar, Hakeem, or west?)

One of the users here, can't recall who, described it as "Duncan has the bigger mountain.  Shaq has the higher peak."  I feel bad that I don't remember who said that, because IMO it's an eloquent image of the argument.  Like the player who was better at their very best?  Shaq's your guy.  Put a premium on longevity? You're leaning Duncan.  

 

[Boston]

The rumor of the day locally is the Celts making a run at Blake Griffin...there was some type of 3-way scenario with some pieces being Jae Crowder/draft picks and Sacramento and Rudy Gay...not sure what they are going to do but it does sound like the C's really want to make one more big move before the season starts...

 

[rodg12]

The rumor of the day locally is the Celts making a run at Blake Griffin...there was some type of 3-way scenario with some pieces being Jae Crowder/draft picks and Sacramento and Rudy Gay...not sure what they are going to do but it does sound like the C's really want to make one more big move before the season starts...

I just don't get why the Clippers would do that.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

I agree with those 5 ahead of Duncan. Lebron moved up after the recent championship.

Magic and Bird vs. Duncan are tough calls IMO. Their careers were both 6-7 seasons shorter, but more compelling IMO (1 more MVP each, more defining moments, credit for reviving league popularity). Duncan played longer, so he played through a decline due to aging, and Magic (HIV) and Bird (back) didn't really do that because their careers were cut short. Then again, he picked up a couple more titles and a number of milestones in doing so; had that not happened, I doubt anyone would rank him above Magic and Bird.

Certainly, I think it is pretty clear these are the top 8 players of all time. To some degree, it just comes down to splitting hairs to sort them into a specific order, though some choices are clearer than others.

If I was tiering the list, I'd put Jordan alone in Tier I, the center triumvirate in Tier II, and LeBron, Duncan, Magic, and Bird in Tier III.  

I hear what you're saying about Magic and Bird's greater contributions to the game.  I think of Elgin Baylor and Julius Erving more fondly than other BKB historians because I see those two as innovators who changed the way the game was played.  To be consistent with that position, I should reconsider Magic and Bird because they were such unique talents who brought a ton of fans to the game and raised the NBA's profile as a TV sport.  And they were global figures: The Barcelona Olympics aren't the circus they became without Magic and Bird there, even with Jordan more famous than most heads of state and Barkley pretty much a walking carnival.  

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I agree with those 5 ahead of Duncan. Lebron moved up after the recent championship.

Magic and Bird vs. Duncan are tough calls IMO. Their careers were both 6-7 seasons shorter, but more compelling IMO (1 more MVP each, more defining moments, credit for reviving league popularity). Duncan played longer, so he played through a decline due to aging, and Magic (HIV) and Bird (back) didn't really do that because their careers were cut short. Then again, he picked up a couple more titles and a number of milestones in doing so; had that not happened, I doubt anyone would rank him above Magic and Bird.

Certainly, I think it is pretty clear these are the top 8 players of all time. To some degree, it just comes down to splitting hairs to sort them into a specific order, though some choices are clearer than others.

We can all agree that Kobe isn't in the conversation at least. 

 

[Boston]

I just don't get why the Clippers would do that.

Agreed...I could see them dealing Griffin but I don't see them doing it unless they think it helps them this year...Doc didn't go there to rebuild...not sure what the other pieces are but there would be no doubt that Griffin would be the best player involved...

 

[Abraham]

Rudy and crowder to LAC

nets pick to sacramento

nlake to Boston. 

I think everyone wins there. 

 

[Good Posting Judge]

The Clippers aren't trading nlake.

 

[Boston]

Rudy and crowder to LAC

nets pick to sacramento

nlake to Boston. 

I think everyone wins there. 

That would make more sense...I was hearing Crowder to the Kings...if the C's were to deal Crowder the Brown pick makes even more sense...

 

[Abraham]

Rudy and crowder to LAC

nets pick to sacramento

nlake to Boston. 

I think everyone wins there. 

thisnis the most rational trade I've proposed in years here!  Come on!

then send crowder to Hoiston for Harrell and something and boom bobs your uncle.