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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (8 Viewers)
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Kev4029
Footballguy
Carmelo is a 6 time all NBA player. Every player above him with 6 all NBA teams is either in the HOF or is going to be, except for the possible exceptions of McGrady (7 selections), and Howard (8 selections). Howard's case for the HOF is pretty stellar but he's trashed his reputation in the last few years. Howard is a 3 time defensive player of the year, 8 time all NBA as I mentioned (5 1st team), and 5 all defense.
Personally, I think Howard probably deserves the HOF as it stands, and Melo will deserve it once his career is over. Howard was the 2nd best player in the NBA for a few years and a defense force for a half decade. Melo's longevity will give him elite counting stats and his all time great freshman year at Syracuse will give him a big boost.
SWC
Bromigo
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
Amare retiring a Knick.
Made my day
Made my day
SWC
Bromigo
maybe he is just broke and he is going to sign a bunch of one day contracts with all of his former teams to make a little extra scratch right at the end brohans that he can take to the bankAmare retiring a Knick.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Amare Stoudamire and Brit's **** both retired in the same week!
Britney Spears
guest speaker
Tau837
Footballguy
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Never played in a finals. Never on a legit title contender. Never an MVP (only top 3 in voting once). Never 1st team All NBA. Never played D. Never had a PER over 25; barely cracked 20 till he went full on Kobe in 12/13.
I would also choose Howard over Melo if having to pick one.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I'm not sure to which part of that you are referring to.
If you are talking about Amare's HOF probability, you can read about Basketball Reference's method in that link. The only players with a higher probability that are HOF eligible that have not been elected into the HOF are Tim Hardaway (79%), Jack Sikma (87%), and Larry Foust (94%). I don't think Amare will get into the HOF, but their HOF probability thing is pretty accurate in that if a player has a high HOF probability, they are usually in the HOF.
If you are referring to me saying that Howard, Curry, and Melo would probably all make it if they retired today, I've explained myself about Howard and Melo, and the case for Curry is even easier as he was the best player on a championship team, the best player on a runner up and he has two MVP's. There isn't anybody with that resume that isn't in the HOF.
If it's Ginobili that is a joke, he's the best South American NBA player ever, he was the best player on the first international team to beat an all NBA US team, and has a gold and bronze medal in the Olympics. He's a shoo-in for the HOF.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I agree that he's not a first ballot HOFer at this moment, but its not just the NBA HOF, it is the basketball HOF. He will be the first 4-time Olympic American player this year, likely with three golds and a bronze, he was an all-american and the best player in the tournament when he lead his team to the title his freshman year (had anybody else ever done that prior to Melo?), plus he has been a very good, if not great NBA player for over a decade. Unless he fades drastically, which would be a surprise given his size and skill set offensively, he'll end up in the top 10 in points scored or very close to it.
When he is finally eligible for the HOF, I would be incredibly surprised if he doesn't make it.
Niles Standish
Footballguy
He was the best player on a team that lost in the Western finals in 6 games to the eventual champions. I'd consider that team a contender.
Are any of the following guys significantly better than Melo? None of them were ever a top player in the league. Sure a lot of them were on teams with transcended players and won titles because of it. And I've tried to avoid the quagmire of older players (other than KC Jones) and stuck to guys that made their chops in the 70s or later.
KC Jones
Calvin Murphy
Jamaal Wilkes
Dennis Johnson
Robert Parish
Kevin McHale
James Worthy
Adrian Dantley
Chris Mullin
Mitch Richmond
Reggie Miller
Alex English
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Kyle Lowry was the best player on a team that lost in the Eastern finals in 6 games to the eventual champions. I would not consider that team a contender.Niles Standish said:
Yes, I understand that there are probably worse players in the hall that Anthony and that my definition of what a hall of famer is does not align with the actual hall.
I see Melo in a tier with McGrady and Carter. Good scorers, entertaining players but not worthy of the hall.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I'm still convinced that the Nuggets were a better team than the Lakers that series. Each of the first 5 games were very close and I remember the Nuggets outplaying the Lakers for 4 of those games but some bounces and fouls didn't go their way. Either way, even if it was all my homerism that makes me feel that way, the series was very competitive and the Lakers went on to handle the Magic fairly easily in the finals. The 2008 Nuggets were a contender.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
You probably remember that team more clearly than I do. I remember them as "contenders" like the Clippers or Raptors this year or the Rockets, Hawks, Grizz, Blazers, etc from 2015.
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
NBA HOF has always been fairly easy to get into compared to say, the MLB.
Abraham
Footballguy
Exactly. Melo, Bosh, Manu, McGrady, and carter are all getting in. So are Wade, James, durant, Paul, kobe, Curry, and Duncan. Kyrie and Klay are probably going to get in as well. Lots of other guys too.
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
Blazers:
DAME, Shabazz
CJ, Crabbe
Turner, Harkless
Leonard, Aminu, Vonleh
Ezili, Plumlee, E. Davis
Lots of depth...as many have said, probably didn't need Turner...especially at that price. They have to be thinking they can make some deals down the road.
DAME, Shabazz
CJ, Crabbe
Turner, Harkless
Leonard, Aminu, Vonleh
Ezili, Plumlee, E. Davis
Lots of depth...as many have said, probably didn't need Turner...especially at that price. They have to be thinking they can make some deals down the road.
Kev4029
Footballguy
They took a while to get going that year (that was the year they started with AI then traded for Billups), but they finished the regular season going 14-3 then crushed the Hornets in the first round (including a 58 point win), handily beat the Mavs in the second round, then played the Lakers tight. They weren't a great team for the majority of the season, but by the time the playoffs rolled around and everybody was mostly healthy, they were a very good offensive team and an even better defensive team. Billups and Karl really had that team motivated.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
I thought you were better than this Tre.
It's the basketball HOF...not the NBA HOF.
the moops
Footballguy
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
I, perhaps unsurprisingly, think Richmond was terribly underrated by the public at large, but if he's in, Melo has to be in for sure. I don't think it's even a particularly interesting debate. The basketball hall of fame doesn't hold itself out as the super exclusive club that the NFL/MLB equivalents do.Niles Standish said:
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Evan Turner's agent = first ballot.
SWC
Bromigo
Kev4029
Footballguy
By all-around, do you mean a better defender? McHale was certainly that, but he was hardly a good rebounder or passer. Melo is both a better passer and rebounder for his position than McHale was for his. Melo is the less efficient but more active scorer. Plus McHale was helped by playing against lesser talents as a 6th man for the majority of his career. He was also not recognized at the time as being a standout all-around player, as he only made a single All-NBA team (with 6 All-Defense and 2 Sixth Man awards).
Boston
Footballguy
Out of curiosity (and I honestly don't mean to sound condescending) did you actually see McHale play or are you basing this solely on statistics?
Kev4029
Footballguy
Boston
Footballguy
Niles Standish
Footballguy
I watched McHale play (grew up in Maine so I watched a lot of his games). And I don't think he was as good as Melo. But I'll admit I was young when he was at his best and my memory might be tarnished by the years where he couldn't move. He was definitely helped by having Bird and Parish in the same front court and playing from the bench a lot of his career. I am also a bit swayed that other than the one year he finished 4th in MVP voting we're talking 13th, 19th and nothing else mentioned. That doesn't seem like his contemporaries saw him as a top player in the league. Parish and DJ both had better MVP finish numbers (although DJ's were before he made it to Boston).
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
Gotta say this is the first time I've heard a 7-time All-Star and 6-time All-DEF referred to as "not recognized at the time as being a standout all-around player".
McHale was not a great passer for a PF. There are some "Black Hole" references to his game. However, relative to his position, he's about equal to Melo. Melo has low assist and high turnovers for a perimeter player at his usage level.
The rebounding verdict is a tough one to make because both players were a bit unorthodox. McHale played a ton of PF on offense - he had a bottomless moveset from either block - but guarded a lot of SFs and SGs while Bird played PF on defense. Carmelo plays a lot of PF at both ends of the floor for a guy considered to primarily be an SF.
McHale was named first-team All-NBA. Carmelo hasn't. Also, four of Carmelo's six All-NBA nods are third-team, an award that didn't exist when McHale was in his 20s.
McHale's WS, WS/48 and VORP are way ahead of Carmelo's in a comparable number of regular-season games, and McHale's postseason numbers don't have any negative numbers that little Melo's postseason box.
Boston
Footballguy
Having soon both I don't see them being too close...also, I don't think it is fair to use stats as a total barometer for how good he was...McHale did benefit from playing on a good team but he also sacrificed his personal numbers because of this as well...he could easily have averaged close to 30 a game if he was in a situation like Carmelo where he was the only show in-town...while having some of the best low-post moves in NBA history he was also a dominant defender...Melo is not in the same zip code in that department...he was also excellent in the post-season...as for the MVP voting there was no way he was going to get much MVP love playing with Larry Bird...that just was not going to happen...as for the sixth man that used to be a staple of the Celtic way...if you read anything about Red Auerbach his philosophy was to have one of your best players be the sixth man and to put him in once the starters got tired as it would give them a huge advantage as well as energizing his team...he did it with Havilchek as well and he's another all-time great...
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Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
It is a little strange how empty Carmelo Anthony's NBA career seems for someone of his fame and production. I know there's little statistical evidence to back this up, but IMO Carmelo was mentally derailed after that brawl with the Knicks in 2006. There was joyous exuberance to his game that was gone after that.
His Basketball HOF resume also includes an alpha NCAA title and some outstanding contributions to Team USA which will punch his HOF ticket with any HOF voters who have lingering doubt about stat looting as an NBA player. I'm going out on a limb and guessing USA might have eked out gold medals in 2008 and 2012 without Carmelo Anthony on the roster, but I suppose the real honor with USAB is being chosen to participate.
Niles Standish
Footballguy
I'm not sure I buy this. When Magic was an MVP candidate every year Kareem still managed 3 top 5 selections in his late 30s.
Boston
Footballguy
McHale is not Kareem...you are talking one of the very best in Kareem and his game was helped by Magic...his playing style never changed...
Kev4029
Footballguy
As tainted as all the awards voting is, All-Star selections really stand out a poor barometer of play. He was definitely a great defender. As Niles above you said, he only received MVP votes in three years (the year he was 4th in voting was his one 1st team selection, one of the years 3rd team All-NBA existed). It is very likely he wouldn't have received many, if any, 3rd team selections even if they were available.
Contrary to what you said, Melo has low turnover rates for a player with his usage. Last year there was only 1 player with lower turnover turnover rates and a higher usage rate (Kobe), the few years previous that really isn't a fair statement because his usage rate was so high, but the 5 years previous he was top 10 in usage rate in each of those years and only once was there a player in the top 10 in usage with a turnover rate lower than his (Aldridge a few years back). His assist rates are also right in line with average career numbers of other elite SF's not named Lebron that he has played against.
Melo has played a fair share at PF, but very rarely in his Denver career playing alongside guys like Nene, Camby, Martin, and Andersen. His rebound rate doesn't seem to reflect his additional play at PF. McHale is probably hurt playing alongside Bird and Parish, but his career rebound rate is somewhere between average and poor for a PF, probably leaning towards poor as he played a good amount at center.
Carmelo also played at a time where probably the two best forwards (2 of the best 3 for Bird fans) of all time played the entirety of his career, plus Durant, Dirk, and Garnett who have arguments for top 20 all time players, and Pau and Pierce are top 50 players. The early to mid 00s were the best time for forwards in the history of the NBA. He had much more competition for those All-NBA spots than McHale did.
Win Shares are a good measure of a combination of efficient play and team success. Melo's teams haven't been nearly as successful as McHale's so it would make sense that his Win Shares would suffer. I also couldn't argue that McHale was more efficient. McHale did have the higher/better VORP but Melo has the higher PER (21.1 to 20.0).
All around, I think they are a fair comparison of NBA impact/talent.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
How many 7-time (or greater) All-Stars weren't that good? I could see that argument for an appearance here or there, but McHale was never voted in by the fans yet still made the All-Star team 7 times.
How strong is the correlation between MVP voting and All-NBA voting?
Would you say passing is an asset in Carmelo Anthony's game?
Well, you're making a compelling argument that you never saw McHale play. Which years were the ones he played a lot of center?
OK, now you're full-on shtick. McHale didn't have as much competition for All-NBA at forward? I think you need to stop making any judgment calls about eras you didn't personally observe.
If you're going to ding McHale's edge in WS because his teams won a lot, then you also need to ding Melo's edge in PER since that's so driven by Usage. A PER of 20.0 is amazing for a Usage in the low 20s. A PER of 21.1 with a Usage over 30 is an underachievement who left a lot of wins on the table.
That's an odd conclusion to make given you said McHale wasn't a standout.
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
I bet Amare doesn't know how many bolts were in the Garden floor.
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
The National Basketball Players Association will fund health insurance for all retired NBA players with at least three years of service in the NBA.
The vote was unanimous and this becomes the first of its kind in North American professional sports. "The game has never before been more popular, and all the players in our league today recognize that we’re only in this position because of the hard work and dedication of the men who came before us," NBPA President Chris Paul said. "It’s important that we take care of our entire extended NBA family, and I’m proud of my fellow players for taking this unprecedented step to ensure the health and well-being of our predecessors."
Source: NBPA.com
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Tau837
Footballguy
I don't really care about BR's method. If Amare Stoudemire is a HOFer, the HOF is a joke. Period.
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