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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (1 Viewer)

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The Wizards were a second round playoff team a couple years ago and a preseason chic pick to compete for the #1 seed in the east last year with largely the same cast. Brooks has done a nice job but he's got plenty of talent to compete - the bench sucks but he's running out three max players. 

 
Charlie Harper said:
So do we disregard the coaching Spo did to put them in a hole?
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That's not really a fair assessment.  Nobody thought that they were losing games because of poor coaching.  They were losing games because of roster construction and playing from a "talent defecit".  The team lost the face of their franchise in Wade and essentially Bosh.   That's a major overhaul of their roster which left them with less talent than they had a year ago. Teams that undergo major roster changes even in a positive direction (when the big 3 in Miam first developed, KD to the Warriors) typically don't even play up to their potential to start the season due to chemistry issues.  Spo inherited a diminished and depleted roster--and tinkered and tweaked with it until he figured out a system to win.   If you are arguing that Miami started the season slow primarily because of a lapse of coaching from Spo--I very much disagree. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
The case for including Pop would have to incorporate the fact that the reason the Spurs were picked to finish second in the preseason is to some extent because he's there, both in the short term and the long term (how much credit do you give him for guys like Leonard, Mills and Green all vastly outperforming expectations, for example).

It's also similar to the LeBron MVP arguments in some ways. Sure some excellent guys are having amazing years, but we all know who the best player/coach in the league is and has been for years. If they're having a good season they deserve to be in the mix.
 

Also re: the Wiz, keep in mind that while Beal has been healthier than usual, Mahinmi (their biggest FA acquisition) has missed most of the season. Until the trade deadline Brooks had to keep the team afloat with only five guys who have any business being on an NBA court. Maybe six, according to me and my fellow members of the Jason Smith Fan Club. Spo gets the benefit of Riley, while Brooks has the burden of Ernie Grunfeld.
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I understand your point of view--but my counter would be that the Western conference has also devolved this season.  OKC losing Durant took them out of contender mix.  The Warriors had a pretty solid lead over the Spurs when Durant was healthy.  The Clippers suffered injuries to some of their major players.  The Spurs have had some injuries here and there--(Pau did break a finger)--but I don't compare that to the clips losing blake/cp3, the thunder losing durant, then the warriors losing their new acquisition in Durant.  Yes--pops is being his typical excellent self--and sometimes the expectations are "baked in" due to his coaching.  However--he does have a pretty vast talent pool on his team.   While I think he's one of the best coaches in the game--I don't think that this season is his best coaching job.  Heck--I wouldn't be offended if pops got replaced by Quinn Snyder for COTY consideration.  A team that has lost Favors for much of the year--and even Hill has missed significant time.   Again--Pops is excellent--but for me--I feel like other guys are coaching really well with less talent. 

 
Charlie Harper said:
So do we disregard the coaching Spo did to put them in a hole?
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I agree with this (and still think he's a candidate)...he is getting a lot of credit for the turnaround but he is also a veteran Coach who was in-charge when they were failing...if you were told at the beginning of the year they would be 33-35 and in the 9th spot in a not very tough East would we be thinking high-end COY candidate? 

 
the moops said:
Sure. Just as we can disregard the 2-8 Wizard start
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Brooks was new to the team, Spo was not. It's a different animal.

Everyone we've named is a good candidate.  Coach of the year is hard for fans to evaluate because it's impossible for fans to know how much a coach is responsible for their team's play.  At least it's not as bad as college, where the award is basically "nice job compensating after you botched recruiting."

 
COY 

1. Pop (de facto)

2. D'Antoni: Good to great with Harden and a bunch of role players.

3. Synder/Brooks/Stevens: All have similar talent and have done very well. I give Synder the edge playing out West. Making teams above .500 is harder than getting a team to .500.

 
Kev4029 said:
The Wizards' pre-season O/U was 42.5, they are on pace for 50 wins (538 says 49).

The Heat's pre-season O/U was 35, they are on pace for 40 wins (538 says 41).
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The Rockets' pre-season O/U was 43.5, they are on pace for 57 wins (538 says 56).

The Spurs' pre-season O/U was 57.5, they are on pace for 64 wins (538 says 63).

Not necessarily the driving factor for COY, but I think the "jump" the Heat made from expected 10th pick of the draft to 8th seed is the least impressive. The Spurs have won more games than expected, but Vegas had them favorites for the second best record in the NBA, which is likely where they end up. The Wizards were expected to be battling for a mid-seed, and have slightly exceeded expectations. The Rockets were expected to be fighting for a playoff spot (tied for 13th in O/U in the NBA) and have the third best record in the NBA. Too me, that is the most impressive jump.

 
Sammy3469 said:
I applaud the Knicks effort last night.  Losing at home to the Nets takes a special kind of tanking magic.

@Capella we're coming for you!
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Amazing amount of tanking going on, I love it. 

 
Kev4029 said:
I think you are a little too down on the Clippers. In the 1000 or so minutes that Paul, Griffin, and Jordan, their Ortg is 118. For comparison, the Rockets lead the league at 116. Their problem is not how those three are playing, the problem is the number of injuries they've had this year.

And you are also selling Paul WAAAAY short. He's definitely not the style of player that Kyrie, Westbrook, or Harden are, but I would take him over any of those three to be my point guard. He's also shooting 42.4% on threes this year, Westrbrook is shooting a career high 33.6% (Harden is at 35.1%, Irving is at 38.8%, both near career norms). He is also among the leaders in shooting percentage from 16 to the three point line (48%), 10-16 feet (46%), and 3-10 feet (58%). He has shot a better percentage from every range other than 0-3 feet than Steph Curry, and other than 3-point % none of those are anomalies. He's one of the better half dozen shooters in the league and light years better than Westbrook and Harden.

Paul is the same player he has been for the last decade. And that player is still the best true point guard since Magic, and maybe the best true PG ever other than Magic.
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Appreciate the thoughts and confess to being butt hurt by the recent level of play. The beginning of the season gave high hopes. LA is a really fun place when either team is playing great in the playoffs. So with maybe the 2nd best true pg ever, an Olympian and All Star at C, a PF who is better than that C... the Clips are about to slip into the 6th/7th seed behind OKC and/or Memphis.The Thunder were without their 2nd and 3rd best O players for a good bit of the season, so it isn't just injuries. Denver, Utah, Memphis and OKC are playing better now and the Clips are healthy. I don't think I am too down on them, just too sad that a first round exit is so likely. 

As for selling Chris short. I've seen him live about 50 times here, and I rarely miss them on tv. So I've seen some incredible stuff. One of my all-time favorites, no doubt. Certainly the smartest player I've ever watched. But I stand by what I see and said. I could address your stats from my perspective, but I don't have the heart to argue it much beyond what's explained. So you're totally wrong about everything and that's not helping. 

 
To me, Pop should be the no-brainer COTY.  They lost a top 10 all-time player and are still going to win 60+ games?  That is crazy.  But like James and the MVP, it's boring to give it to the guy almost everyone knows is the best. 

 
Charlie Harper said:
So do we disregard the coaching Spo did to put them in a hole?
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He did not have his starting back court playing together for almost 8 weeks due to Waiters being injured, then Dragic being nicked up and his entire roster was basically turned over save for Whiteside, Dragic, Winslow and Richardson. He lost Bosh and Wade over the last two seasons. Lost Winslow for the year.

Spo has done a remarkable job getting this roster to perform above their heads. And the turn around has been nothing short of remarkable. He is in the running for COTY for sure. I agree there are a few others certainly worthy as well.

 
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Chaos Commish said:
Appreciate the thoughts and confess to being butt hurt by the recent level of play. The beginning of the season gave high hopes. LA is a really fun place when either team is playing great in the playoffs. So with maybe the 2nd best true pg ever, an Olympian and All Star at C, a PF who is better than that C... the Clips are about to slip into the 6th/7th seed behind OKC and/or Memphis.The Thunder were without their 2nd and 3rd best O players for a good bit of the season, so it isn't just injuries. Denver, Utah, Memphis and OKC are playing better now and the Clips are healthy. I don't think I am too down on them, just too sad that a first round exit is so likely. 

As for selling Chris short. I've seen him live about 50 times here, and I rarely miss them on tv. So I've seen some incredible stuff. One of my all-time favorites, no doubt. Certainly the smartest player I've ever watched. But I stand by what I see and said. I could address your stats from my perspective, but I don't have the heart to argue it much beyond what's explained. So you're totally wrong about everything and that's not helping. 
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I know Paul's stats are great, but I can't help but think his teammates hate playing with him. I feel like the Clips could be better if CP3 loosened the reigns.

 
Charlie Harper said:
So do we disregard the coaching Spo did to put them in a hole?
Click to expand...
The Heat struggled with Justice Winslow getting big minutes early in the season. They had to play him and he's a good defender, but he's an offensive liability as a shooter. Plus, Waiters started out slow and with so many new players, the roles were still being developed.  The current team has no superstars, but it has 2 good penetrators on the first (Dragic and Waiters) and second team (the Johnsons - Tyler and James)  and quality shooters and defenders (minus Babbitt). The 2 Johnsons are the 2nd and 3rd highest scoring off-the-bench players in the NBA. Waiters and James Johnson are having career years, Dragic is a top 10 PG and Tyler Johnson is earning his big contract. I give credit to Spo, his coaching staff, the front office for getting lucky with Wade not signing - it allowed them to get some good veterans.

James Johnson will get a nice contract somewhere next season and he gives credit to the strength and conditioning coaches Bill and son Eric Moran for helping him get in the best shape of his life - he arrived last summer at 275lbs and 14.5% body fat and is now 238lbs and 6.75% body fat. Reminds me of another Miami Heat conditioning success story - Ike Austin - who also earned a big money contract after leaving the Heat.

Waiters will also get a nice raise nest year - he's a good defender but his offense is to inconsistent. I'm not sure he or James Johnson will be here next year.  

A 7th or 8th seed coach will not win COY.

 
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honestly, i'm not sure that dj would benefit from less structure.

and wtf is with the NBA scheduling?  houston in NO last night and in Denver tonight.  They do #### like this all the time and then people get mad when teams rest players.

 
SoBeDad said:
James Johnson will get a nice contract somewhere next season and he gives credit to the strength and conditioning coaches Bill and son Eric Moran for helping him get in the best shape of his life - he arrived last summer at 275lbs and 14.5% body fat and is now 238lbs and 6.75% body fat. Reminds me of another Miami Heat conditioning success story - Ike Austin - who also earned a big money contract after leaving the Heat.
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Love me some James Johnson and wish Casey would have let him play in Toronto.

And there is absolutely 0 chance he has 6.75% body fat right now and he was much higher than 14.5% befire. 6.75% is dehydrated at a bodybuilder competition body fat levels. Complete bull####.

 
Sixers can't figure out if they want to win or want to lose. Thank God Hinkie set this team up so well or it would be guaranteed another decade of medicority with a bunch of 1st round playoff losses. Worried that it still may be the case, but luckily Sixers are set for the next few drafts so hopefully worth someting

Tough loss for the Celtics against this rag-tag group of half-injured guys, and to be honest, it does make you wonder if Ainge should have done more to bring in another piece to help the Celtics in the playoffs. Losing to a beat-up Sixers squad does not provide confidence for a long playoff run

ETA:  funny little piece from the summary of the game at libertyballers:

Jaylen Brown, who has recently been included in Rookie of the Year talks (if that talk is happening at The Pour House on Boylston Street), finished with two points and two boards in 16 minutes. He did, however, jump very high on two occasions, a contribution that unfairly is not represented on the scoring sheet.

 
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modogg said:
Sixers can't figure out if they want to win or want to lose. Thank God Hinkie set this team up so well or it would be guaranteed another decade of medicority with a bunch of 1st round playoff losses. Worried that it still may be the case, but luckily Sixers are set for the next few drafts so hopefully worth someting

Tough loss for the Celtics against this rag-tag group of half-injured guys, and to be honest, it does make you wonder if Ainge should have done more to bring in another piece to help the Celtics in the playoffs. Losing to a beat-up Sixers squad does not provide confidence for a long playoff run

ETA:  funny little piece from the summary of the game at libertyballers:

Jaylen Brown, who has recently been included in Rookie of the Year talks (if that talk is happening at The Pour House on Boylston Street), finished with two points and two boards in 16 minutes. He did, however, jump very high on two occasions, a contribution that unfairly is not represented on the scoring sheet.
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Brown and the players want to win and Dario is the man. Collangelo trying his best to tank and but he's too much of a tool to know how to do it. This was not supposed to be a tanking year anyway. This was supposed to be play hard and get the Kings pick anyway. 

 
:lmao:  Good thing they gave up Buckets, Taj & a 2nd for him.

Cameron Payne (foot) will head down to the D-League to play a couple games.
On the bright side, at least this means his foot must be better. Payne can be left on the wire in re-draft leagues.

 
 
Source: KC Johnson on Twitter

 
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Kev4029 said:
In about the least surprising NBA news of the season, Rob Hennigan's job is in jeopardy as the Magic's GM.

Congrats Cappy.
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Alex Martins and ownership are also the problem. Word is they pressured Hennigan to make that dumb Tobias trade last year, which makes sense if you look at how different it was from all his other moves. 

In all, I have probably watched 6 total quarters of the Magic this year. And it's not like I don't have free time. I've watched literally dozens of college games. It's just a drab, completely boring and unexciting franchise that doesn't have one thing to hang its hat on now. I just don't know if I even want to bother with them going forward. My free time is going to be more limited and I honestly just don't care. 

 
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i have been sick and did not get to this right away but i love the bucks not only beating but literally beating up the punkout fake show out in la la land and then luke walton crying like a little baby about how some bucks bench personnel were there maybe they should rename the lakers the huggies or the pull ups or something take that to the youve been bangoized bank bromigos 

 
Steph gets in a shoving match on a jump ball and gets held back bouncer-like by Taj Gibson, then hauls off and hits a three at the other end in the three seconds left in the half. Their ownage of the Thunder this year is becoming Clippers-esque.

Warriors up by 20.

 
modogg said:
Sixers have like 100 fouls this game? Not watching but following online cause my dopey ### bet on the Sixers ML and against the spread
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been in and out but saric and tlc fouled out.  this stupid team blows a full-game lead, then hangs on for OT and still won't give up.

holmes fouls out too.

 
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bananafish said:
Steph gets in a shoving match on a jump ball and gets held back bouncer-like by Taj Gibson, then hauls off and hits a three at the other end in the three seconds left in the half. Their ownage of the Thunder this year is becoming Clippers-esque.

Warriors up by 20.
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Broke the swag/rudeness meter with that 3.

Cupcake shtick is pretty great imo.

 
Orlando's doing everything in their power to screw up their 4th place finish in Tankapalooza, Cappy.  Don't sleep on the Knick's @Capella...west coast road trip and only a single game left with another tanking team.  Think's its about time they shut Melo down for good.

 
This season can't end soon enough.  Bring on the western conference finals already.  Are there even a double digit number of teams concerned about winning right now?

 
BassNBrew said:
Are there even a double digit number of teams concerned about winning right now?
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GSW and SAS probably care a little bit about getting the one seed. HOU is safe in the 3, so maybe they don't care, but they certainly aren't throwing games. LAC and UTA are fighting to stay in the 4 seed. Neither one wants ot be the road team in their 4/5 matchup. DEN and POR are both fighting hard for the # 8 spot. MEM and OKC probably both want the 6 seed, although maybe OKC would prefer the 7 and face the SAS.

CLE deosn't really seem to mind not having the 1 seed. BOS wants to stay in the two seed so they get home court until having to face CLE in the ECF. WAS and TOR definitely want to avoid being the 4 seed so as to avoid a secound round matchup against CLE. There are only four games separating the 5 - 10 seed. ATL, IND, MIL, DET, MIA, CHI are all trying to win. BRK has nothing to lose for cause they have no pick.

So yes, there are double digit teams concerned about winning

 
Sammy3469 said:
Orlando's doing everything in their power to screw up their 4th place finish in Tankapalooza, Cappy.  Don't sleep on the Knick's @Capella...west coast road trip and only a single game left with another tanking team.  Think's its about time they shut Melo down for good.
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They had a 17 point deficit too, and worked their way back. Amazing incompetence. 

 
the moops said:
LAC and UTA are fighting to stay in the 4 seed. Neither one wants ot be the road team in their 4/5 matchup. DEN and POR are both fighting hard for the # 8 spot. MEM and OKC probably both want the 6 seed, although maybe OKC would prefer the 7 and face the SAS.
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I'd say the Thunder still eye the 4 seed, but will settle for the 5/6.  Thunder have 3 of their next 5 against tank teams and own the tiebreaker with Utah and lead Memphis 2-1 w/ one left.  The two games left against Denver may be key, but since the two games come during the last 3 games of the season, outcomes may not matter.

 
the moops said:
GSW and SAS probably care a little bit about getting the one seed. HOU is safe in the 3, so maybe they don't care, but they certainly aren't throwing games. LAC and UTA are fighting to stay in the 4 seed. Neither one wants ot be the road team in their 4/5 matchup. DEN and POR are both fighting hard for the # 8 spot. MEM and OKC probably both want the 6 seed, although maybe OKC would prefer the 7 and face the SAS.

CLE deosn't really seem to mind not having the 1 seed. BOS wants to stay in the two seed so they get home court until having to face CLE in the ECF. WAS and TOR definitely want to avoid being the 4 seed so as to avoid a secound round matchup against CLE. There are only four games separating the 5 - 10 seed. ATL, IND, MIL, DET, MIA, CHI are all trying to win. BRK has nothing to lose for cause they have no pick.

So yes, there are double digit teams concerned about winning
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Yup.  IMO one of the best things about the NBA's playoff structure is the importance it gives to seeding. There's a ton of benefit to moving up a spot or two in the standings, especially since they got rid of divisional preferences, because (a) there's a significant edge to having home court; and (b) there's usually a real difference in quality of opponent when you move up or down a spot or two.

Compare it to the NHL, where playoff seeding is much less meaningful and often counter-intuitive, which basically turns the NHL regular season into a six month preseason.

 
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