2016 Tour de France (July 2-July24) (1 Viewer)

[Nick Vermeil]

Looks like I will hold you guys off for another big win. I'm hoping I'll get the stage win tomorrow with Cav out of the field. I sure did punt the KOM race. Sheesh. I'll have to prepare for that next year. I didn't get to watch as much as I had hoped to this year, life got in the way. Maybe next year!

 

[BassNBrew]

Anyone else get the feeling today won't be the last time Alaphilippe and Pantano are together off the front of this race? 

Talented but without a train like Sky or Movistar and a clear path to a leadership role their upside in the TdF is limited.

 

[BassNBrew]

Definitely not a sure thing. Just exciting young talents, and who knows what team they'll be on or who will be with them in 5 years when they're in their prime. 

Also, it seems like you and I are going to be neck and neck for #2. You'll have 810 GC points from Froome, Quintana, and Pantano. I'll have 880 from Bardet, Porte, Kreuziger, and Rolland. I'll get 100 points from Sagan, you'll get 40 points from Kristoff, but you'll get 60 back from Pantano in the mountains.  You're 76 points up on me right now, and there are a bunch of misc team things that I'm not going to go to the trouble of figuring out. Looks like you're up by 6 points after GC, points, and mountains jerseys. 

If that's the case, congrats on your second place finish.  You have two sprinters tomorrow who will score points, I only have one.

 

[BassNBrew]

Looks like I will hold you guys off for another big win. I'm hoping I'll get the stage win tomorrow with Cav out of the field. I sure did punt the KOM race. Sheesh. I'll have to prepare for that next year. I didn't get to watch as much as I had hoped to this year, life got in the way. Maybe next year!

Congrats on the win.  Next year I take two sprinters.  Sagan should be priced at 30+

 

[ffldrew]

Was really disappointed with the Tour this year - tons of great stages and chances for action in the mountain stages and no real attacks on yellow for both weeks. Only the eff up on Mount Ventoux gave us any drama. But even with the wrecks the day before - no one took advantage to challenge the yellow and Sky. Quintana is such a disappointment. TJ and even Porte showed little - even during the stage in Switzerland where BMC has roots. In the end hats off to Froome and Sky - hopefully we find it's clean in the coming years.

 

[Kafka]

This being my first time following the Tour de France (or cycling in general), I must say I thoroughly enjoyed it.  I didn't know there was so many intrigues & nuances, aside from the sheer force of will & endurance requisite of each individual.  Looking forward to following upcoming races...

 

[Jaysus]

I was just in it for stage wins  year I think I wound up with 4 including Pairs.

 

[BassNBrew]

Dang, almost pulled out a first place.  If Kristoff/Sagan swap spots today I think I win.

Congrats Spokes and nice having you on the podium Mason.

 

[Sammy3469]

Was really disappointed with the Tour this year - tons of great stages and chances for action in the mountain stages and no real attacks on yellow for both weeks. Only the eff up on Mount Ventoux gave us any drama. But even with the wrecks the day before - no one took advantage to challenge the yellow and Sky. Quintana is such a disappointment. TJ and even Porte showed little - even during the stage in Switzerland where BMC has roots. In the end hats off to Froome and Sky - hopefully we find it's clean in the coming years.

It's virtually impossible to attack (and not blow yourself up) when Sky has 5 guys riding tempo at close to 6.0 watts per/kg.  What they did was basically better than Postal in its "prime" (Armstrong still has a higher top than Froome, but Froome has more/better train).

the last climb on Sat is one of the toughest in the world and no one can attack when Sky does what they do.  Granted Quintana was off this tour, but this was also one of the "best" tours for 2-13.

Having said all that, Sky's doping and 2-13 are all doping as well.  They were all putting up watt/kgs of the Armstrong years.  Of course no one really cares since Sky's guy runs UCI, the control British testing, and have a lot of influence at WADA.  To have one stage winner from France, Spain, or Italy is just a joke.  

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Dang, almost pulled out a first place.  If Kristoff/Sagan swap spots today I think I win.

Congrats Spokes and nice having you on the podium Mason.

Nice rally. I went from ranking in the hundreds overall to 6000 something overnight. I guess those podium spots count for something.  

 

[DA RAIDERS]

great fun as always.  i'm busy researching a vacation to lake annecy, stunning place.  i picked guys i like and did pretty well.  sky is a joke of a powerhouse.  level the field and let them all juice!

 

[BassNBrew]

It's virtually impossible to attack (and not blow yourself up) when Sky has 5 guys riding tempo at close to 6.0 watts per/kg.  What they did was basically better than Postal in its "prime" (Armstrong still has a higher top than Froome, but Froome has more/better train).

the last climb on Sat is one of the toughest in the world and no one can attack when Sky does what they do.  Granted Quintana was off this tour, but this was also one of the "best" tours for 2-13.

Having said all that, Sky's doping and 2-13 are all doping as well.  They were all putting up watt/kgs of the Armstrong years.  Of course no one really cares since Sky's guy runs UCI, the control British testing, and have a lot of influence at WADA.  To have one stage winner from France, Spain, or Italy is just a joke.  

Seems like some of these teams should have mixed it up by attacking earlier and trying to blow up the train.

 

[Kafka]

Not sure I follow...after the Armstrong debacle, wouldn't the doping regulations tighten?  Judging by the temperature of this thread, it seems to be common knowledge that the best teams regularly dope, but get away with it?  If so, why, & how?  Color me confused .... 

 

[-jb-]

A few semi-on-topic questions for you fellas:

- when you watch, do you typically FF through the first few hours and just watch the final miles?  If so, do you also stop to catch the various vignettes that they show  on riders and teams?

- did you notice a difference in the viewing experience based on the information they had on the riders/peloton?  What would you do different there?

- how much do you think froome changed his image of being a boring giraffe by how he rode this year?  Bobke and Van de Velde seemed to be overdoing it a bit.

- will Sagan just obliterate the consecutive green jersey record or can someone challenge him?

thx

 

[Jaysus]

A few semi-on-topic questions for you fellas:

- will Sagan just obliterate the consecutive green jersey record or can someone challenge him?

thx

He's not French... they will change the way that the points awarded. 

 

[BassNBrew]

He's not French... they will change the way that the points awarded. 

Yup, although I really like how they do it now.  The interest in the intermediate sprint is awesome.

 

[BassNBrew]

A few semi-on-topic questions for you fellas:

- when you watch, do you typically FF through the first few hours and just watch the final miles?  If so, do you also stop to catch the various vignettes that they show  on riders and teams?

- did you notice a difference in the viewing experience based on the information they had on the riders/peloton?  What would you do different there?

- how much do you think froome changed his image of being a boring giraffe by how he rode this year?  Bobke and Van de Velde seemed to be overdoing it a bit.

- will Sagan just obliterate the consecutive green jersey record or can someone challenge him?

thx

I typically watch the whole dang thing unless it's a totally flat stage.  I that case I watch it at 3-4x until the peloton gets serious about chasing the break.

I'm a numbers geek.  It would be nice if they had more rider cameras and more real time data from the riders power meters.

I really enjoyed how Froome rode in a few of the stages.  That said, the mountain stages were the most boring ever this year.  The best stages now are the ones with just enough hills at the end to make it a challenge for the sprinters to hang but enough hills that most of the riders are in contention for a win.

 

[Thorpe]

I DVR the race in the AM and watch it at night.  I watch the whole thing, because I like the commentary and the scenery and some of the features.  The only thing I don't enjoy is the Time Trials.

I am no cycling expert, but Froome completely dominated.  He won both climbing and descending in the mountains, won the time trial, even came in second on a sprint stage.  Just about anyone that attacked him cracked a couple minutes later.

Nobody is touching Sagan for Green unless he has to abandon.  He can finish top 3 or 5 in every sprint stage, and also can get over a few mountains to pick up 20 sprint points in the intermediates on hilly stages.  Even if a sprinter could win every stage, he couldn't beat Sagan because of those 20 points.

Sagan is probably the most popular rider on the tour so I doubt they do anything to affect his dominance.

 

[Jaysus]

Yup, although I really like how they do it now.  The interest in the intermediate sprint is awesome.

I predict a new jersey for intermediate sprints... Green Polka Dots?

 

[Sammy3469]

They did tighten and the bio passport absolutely worked in getting epo out of the peloton.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I just assume that they've figured different ways out that we aren't aware of and aren't being tested for. 

I know entirely too much about this for my own good.

1. Armstrong and his crew topped out at 6.2 watts/kg in their prime.  The other guys doping (on EPO and to a lesser extent some steriods) were 5.8-6.0.  Keep in mind everyone was doping then.  Ullrich, Vino, Hamilton, Basso, Hera, Hincapie, Leipheimer.  All doped.  The only one not popped during that period was Sastre and that's just because he was lucky.

2.  During these tours, the way Postal won was to have Armstrong win the Time Trials and then Postal would ride tempo as a team up the mountain until they died and Lance had to finish.  Keep in mind all these guys were doped even on Postal.  Armstrong would win because his topline was still better than everyone else (it's here the chemo story might have some merit as he was as skinny as the guys today...keep that in mind for today).

3. Postal kept the lid on this by basically bribing UCI, WADA, and everyone else.  They also talked about how they trained better, had better tech, etc.  None of it was true.

4. 2006 Operation Puerto happens banning Ullrich and Basso.  Landis is popped during the Tour.

5. 2007 Rasmussen popped during tour.  Vino also popped

6. 2008-10 the watt/kg they aren't overt about it, but noted dopers Menchov and Contador win,  

7. 2011.  This is known as the "clean" Tour with W/KG dipping down to 5.5 or so (if memory serves).  Evans wins while beating dopers Contador, Basso, etc.

8.  2010-on.  Sky enters the picture.  Their first two years are failures.  They flop out of the grand tours and classics.  2010 is a disappointment.  2011 they hire Dr. Geert Leinders (he was fired in 2012) who helped Postal, Rasmussen, and many other dope.  Miraculously, noted climbers Wiggins and Froome come in 2nd and 3rd in the Tour de Espana.  2012 Wiggins wins the Tour with 5.8-9 W/KG.  2013-on Froome is winning with 6.0-1 W/KG.

9.  Sky's MO is sickeningly similar to Postal.  They ride tempo at 6.0 watt/kg up the climb with "noted" climbers like Thomas, Poels, Henao (popped himself), etc.  They proclaim this is possible with "marginal gains".  Everything from the proper pillow, to smoothies, to an ever changing max HR for Froome, to better training methods.  Keep in mind none of these guys (besides Wiggins who was a great track racer) have the pedigree of the guys on other teams they are dropping on these climbs.  Froome was one mediocre 2012 Tour of Espana from being dropped by Sky. Thomas never climbed like this before going there.  They have their guy at UCI and WADA is their back pocket again.  It goes on and on.

10. 2016.  They win the Tour at above a 6.0 w/kg average with Poels, Thomas, et al setting a pace that the best doped natural climbers in the world can't match.  I mean they are chewing up and spitting out other doped teams like Astana like nothing.  Something is up and while it may not be pure EPO, it is something.  This was the fastest climbed tour since the Armstrong heyday.  They did it doped and these guys are doing it as well.  

 

[-jb-]

Good read thx Sammy 

 

[Jaysus]

Just to reiterate yet again:  I prefer my pro-athletes on steroids. 

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Just to reiterate yet again:  I prefer my pro-athletes on steroids. 

amen!!  hell, i want what lance was on!

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Not sure I follow...after the Armstrong debacle, wouldn't the doping regulations tighten?  Judging by the temperature of this thread, it seems to be common knowledge that the best teams regularly dope, but get away with it?  If so, why, & how?  Color me confused .... 

It's hard to believe the entire Sky team can climb as fast as the fastest GC climbers in the world IMO.  My assumption is they just have something new or a creative way to mask it.  Totally uninformed opinion, but I don't believe they've really done much to take the drugs out of the sport.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I know entirely too much about this for my own good.

1. Armstrong and his crew topped out at 6.2 watts/kg in their prime.  The other guys doping (on EPO and to a lesser extent some steriods) were 5.8-6.0.  Keep in mind everyone was doping then.  Ullrich, Vino, Hamilton, Basso, Hera, Hincapie, Leipheimer.  All doped.  The only one not popped during that period was Sastre and that's just because he was lucky.

2.  During these tours, the way Postal won was to have Armstrong win the Time Trials and then Postal would ride tempo as a team up the mountain until they died and Lance had to finish.  Keep in mind all these guys were doped even on Postal.  Armstrong would win because his topline was still better than everyone else (it's here the chemo story might have some merit as he was as skinny as the guys today...keep that in mind for today).

3. Postal kept the lid on this by basically bribing UCI, WADA, and everyone else.  They also talked about how they trained better, had better tech, etc.  None of it was true.

4. 2006 Operation Puerto happens banning Ullrich and Basso.  Landis is popped during the Tour.

5. 2007 Rasmussen popped during tour.  Vino also popped

6. 2008-10 the watt/kg they aren't overt about it, but noted dopers Menchov and Contador win,  

7. 2011.  This is known as the "clean" Tour with W/KG dipping down to 5.5 or so (if memory serves).  Evans wins while beating dopers Contador, Basso, etc.

8.  2010-on.  Sky enters the picture.  Their first two years are failures.  They flop out of the grand tours and classics.  2010 is a disappointment.  2011 they hire Dr. Geert Leinders (he was fired in 2012) who helped Postal, Rasmussen, and many other dope.  Miraculously, noted climbers Wiggins and Froome come in 2nd and 3rd in the Tour de Espana.  2012 Wiggins wins the Tour with 5.8-9 W/KG.  2013-on Froome is winning with 6.0-1 W/KG.

9.  Sky's MO is sickeningly similar to Postal.  They ride tempo at 6.0 watt/kg up the climb with "noted" climbers like Thomas, Poels, Henao (popped himself), etc.  They proclaim this is possible with "marginal gains".  Everything from the proper pillow, to smoothies, to an ever changing max HR for Froome, to better training methods.  Keep in mind none of these guys (besides Wiggins who was a great track racer) have the pedigree of the guys on other teams they are dropping on these climbs.  Froome was one mediocre 2012 Tour of Espana from being dropped by Sky. Thomas never climbed like this before going there.  They have their guy at UCI and WADA is their back pocket again.  It goes on and on.

10. 2016.  They win the Tour at above a 6.0 w/kg average with Poels, Thomas, et al setting a pace that the best doped natural climbers in the world can't match.  I mean they are chewing up and spitting out other doped teams like Astana like nothing.  Something is up and while it may not be pure EPO, it is something.  This was the fastest climbed tour since the Armstrong heyday.  They did it doped and these guys are doing it as well.  

Awesome Sammy -- basically what I figured, but cool to see the #s and details.

 

[Sammy3469]

Awesome Sammy -- basically what I figured, but cool to see the #s and details.

I wasn't clear in this re:Sky, but my guess would be that the rest of the peloton caught onto whatever they were using this year.  The top 11 (12 if you count Contador and 16 if you count Henao, Poels, Thomas, and Nieve) formed the strongest, largest top end group, probably ever.  All these guys basically climbed at 6.0 w.kg.  Now granted some of that was due to the fact that they were all following Sky's absurd train, but they were all uber-strong and uber-skinny in one of the more climbing-centric tours in awhile.  

Much like Armstrong, Froome's still the "best", but the others aren't as far off as they were from 12-15.    

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

uber-skinny

Can you explain this?  Are you saying the best climbers are usually bigger?  Not quite following.

 

[Sammy3469]

Can you explain this?  Are you saying the best climbers are usually bigger?  Not quite following.

So the holy grail for these guys is to put on leg weight/power while shedding weight everywhere else.  The less you weigh and more power you can put out, the higher you can push the watt/kg ratio. Except that doesn't happen naturally as your legs are basically telling you to eat all the time...ergo you need some substance that helps with the process.  It's basically not natural to look the way they do while maintaining the power they do.