Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
If he's been the guy making the decisions so far, then he's done a good job tearing it down.
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2017-18 NBA (Playoffs): A gasping, wheezing thread begs message board poster arguing how Jordan never lost a Finals to just let it die in peace (3 Viewers)
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Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
They are hoping Fox turns into a star. Skal has some low percentage star potential, but they need him and Hield to develop into at least good starters. Cauley Stein and Bogdan have some low-mid level starter potential. Giles is another guy who might turn into an above average starter if the stars align. The plan is to get Joerger to get them to overachieve and then add a star at the top of the 2018 lottery or down the line during FA.
Or they all bust and they keep taking stabs in the lottery for the next several years (sans 2019). The front office does have a whiff of competence though, which is the first time I could say that probably since the Maloofs went broke during the recession.
need2know
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I feel bad for their fans, not the team. All fans deserve a winner sooner or later.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Agree. Hard to know what wouldve happened if Cohan stayed on. There was a long string of lucky happenstances that got them to where they are now.
I thought Bell would fit right in with GS when he screamed f*** Bron Bron but we are often reminded that the internet lives on forever
https://twitter.com/1jordanbell/status/743950666297552898
When Warriors come back down 3-1 they're a great team when Cavs do it NBA is rigged
https://twitter.com/1jordanbell/status/743950666297552898
When Warriors come back down 3-1 they're a great team when Cavs do it NBA is rigged
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
When your best player is 27, you know you've reached the end of the line and it's time for a youth movement.
Short Corner
Footballguy
They are on the best five year run in their history and over half of their fans are fence jumpers anyway.msudaisy26 said:
msudaisy26
Footballguy
That's my point, no fans deserve this as a best 5 year run in a teams history. Wouldn't you jump the fence if your former owner was a racist cheap ### and brought the franchise down?
We owe nothing to these teams as fans when they give us a crappy team to watch, or spend money on. I hate this current version of the Pistons, so I looked around and like what the Suns are building. I am going to cheer for them.
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Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
what are we talking about here?Bucky86 said:Poor Clippers.
Short Corner
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I am speaking as a fan on the Pistons, so I doubt it goes the same for the Magic. I have no problem with them trying and failing and that can be fun to watch. (The Grant Hill years) This team isn't fun to watch, and watching our 2 *stars* look like lazy, whiny #####es every night doesn't help.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
I've been a UConn fan, with several school friends, for 15 years. I think the most excitement about any given recruit during that stretch was over Drummond coming last-minute. Boy did that go down the tubes, although to be fair he was wholly incompatible with Oriakhi.
Granny FT's ftw.
Kev4029
Footballguy
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
I think LAC's best chance is to bite the bullet and offer Paul the max, and let Griffin walk. I don't think they necessarily have to blast everything back to the Stone Age, but I don't think Griffin will come anywhere near earning max money.
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Yeah Everyone knew this would happen.
honestly if Blake did get an offer and leave it wouldn't be the worst thing.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
How does D. Jordan feel right about now? Both these guys convinced him to come back after a verbal agreement with Dallas. Lesson learned I guess.
Tau837
Footballguy
Do cap holds prevent teams from signing free agents? For example, could LAC sign Hayward and then still sign Paul and Griffin? And possibly Redick as well? Or does Redick stand to get more money elsewhere?
Just wondering if they could sign Griffin and trade him for Lebron, and then sign Paul, and what else they could then still do in free agency. I assume luxury tax is not an issue for Ballmer.
need2know
Footballguy
SoCalBroncoFan
Footballguy
I think both Paul and Blake will re-sign with the Clippers. I don't think it's even a question in regards to Paul. As for Blake, he has been breaking down for a couple of years, so it's important for him to get a longer term contract right now. I think he is planking do re-sign with the Clippers, all things being equal, and has probably informed his good buddy Denadre. He needs to test free agency to have the leverage to get the highest deal possible. If im the Clippers and I want to move on from Blake, I sign him to a 3, maybe 4 year deal. But I do not give him a no trade clause. Then in December, when you can love guys signed in the off-season, I shop him to teams like Boston with assets to build with. Then you move Jamal Crawford for a pick or a player. Deandre is relatively young. Chris Paul has a few more good years. Pick up some cheaper assets, whether it be draft picks, young, less expensive players, or a combination of both. Then, next off-season, take your nucleus of Paul, Deandre, and the assets acquired from Blake and Crawford and make a run at a max free agent to pair with them.
Jerry West is in the fold now. Players respect him. I think he can give the Clippers credibility. For all their futility in the past, they have been pretty competitive recently. They have an owner who is willing to spend and take care of his players. They are in a huge media market. The biggest negative against them is that they "aren't the Lakers". Well guess what, the team playing across town isn't the Lakers anymore either. Not the way they used to be. They don't have that sane mystique they used to. The Laker fans are starting to sound like the Dodgers and Raiders fans around here. They talk about their storied history and all their championships, but I have a 16 year old and a 17 year old and they can't remember any teams in LA winning championships.
The Clippers have a chance to build on their recent success and maybe become more than just the punchline to so many jokes. I just don't know if they will.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
My very general understanding is that you can spend as much as you want resigning your own players, with only penalty tax to worry about. Theoretically, because the Clippers now have 6 players signed for $59mil after Griff & Paul opted out, they could spend $40mil signing 7 more players (inc draftees) THEN pay their 2 stars whatever max the CBA allows. Let's say it's $75 mil for the duo. Their payroll would be $174 mil even tho the cap is $99. LOT of penalty tax though
Tau837
Footballguy
I assume it won't happen. Just wondering what is possible. Sign and trades are possible in the NBA, right? So theoretically LAC could sign Griffin and trade him to another team, right? If LAC signed him to the max deal, his 2017-18 salary would nearly be a match to Lebron's.
We know Lebron isn't happy with the Cavs for dropping Griffin, and there doesn't seem like there is a big move for the Cavs to make to get better, so they are not in position to beat GS next year barring GS injuries. There is widespread speculation that Lebron will go to LA next offseason, which would raise the prospect that the Cavs would get nothing for him, just like when he left for MIA, so CLE might be motivated to trade him. LAC just brought West over from GS, which could be appealing to Lebron. It is well known that Lebron and Paul are buddies and Lebron has said he would like them to play together.
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No - there is a cap hold for your own free agents. The Clippers would have to renounce Blake, Paul, etc to get cap room. If they do that, they lose their Bird rights for those players.
IIRC in a sign and trade, the player can only make as much as his new team could sign him for. So, you can't sign Blake to the five year max and trade him right away.
SoCalBroncoFan
Footballguy
I thought I read somewhere that anyone that was signed to a contract during the off-season wasn't eligible to be traded until the middle of December. I can't remember the last time a sign and trade happened.
Tau837
Footballguy
From Why NBA Sign-And-Trades Are Rare:
That article explains why it doesn't make sense for Griffin to agree to a sign and trade, so the scenario I was asking about doesn't make sense.
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Tau837
Footballguy
So the easiest path to the next super team to challenge GS seems to be the Clippers resigning Paul, Redick, and Griffin, and Lebron signing with LAC for whatever minimum contract the rules allow next offseason. Paul, Redick, Lebron, Griffin, and Jordan would be the instant favorite if they could stay healthy.
Or Paul could go to the Spurs and Lebron could follow next offseason. Paul, Lebron, Leonard, and Pop would be the instant favorite if they could stay healthy.
But there doesn't seem to be much that any team can do to really challenge GS in 2017-18.
Or Paul could go to the Spurs and Lebron could follow next offseason. Paul, Lebron, Leonard, and Pop would be the instant favorite if they could stay healthy.
But there doesn't seem to be much that any team can do to really challenge GS in 2017-18.
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wikkidpissah
Footballguy
you can sign and trade your own FA as part of the same transaction. You can't trade a guy you signed outright to a free agent deal until December.
SoCalBroncoFan
Footballguy
Let me put it a different way. You cant trade someone you sign to a max deal until December, Il think.
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
He doesn't need to test free agency to get the highest deal, the Clippers can give him a higher offer than anyone else. Plus both guys would get max offers from other teams.
You don't have a choice of giving Blake or Paul no trade clauses, they would both have one if they resigned with the Clippers. 8 years in the NBA with 4 years of service with one team. The one thing that I am not sure is if Blake's no trade would kick in after the this coming year since he will be in the league 8 years, but didn't play in his first year.
No one is going to give you anything decent for Jamal Crawford, they have been rumored to deal him for the last 2 years and he is still there.
The Celtics wouldn't give much for KP, Butler or George yet, they aren't going to trade for Griffin. They might sign him, but they won't trade for him.
Jordan isn't relatively young, he isn't old either. He will be 29 soon and has 10 years in the league.
The Clippers have been on the down slide since losing to the Rockets a few years ago. Paul isn't going to get better, he is going to get worse, I don't think he will fall off the face of the planet. This team was supposed to be a title contender and hasn't even been to a conference finals, their best days for this current version are most likely behind them, not coming up.
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SoCalBroncoFan
Footballguy
I think Blake had to opt and become a free agent or the Clippers were limited in how much they could pay him. Sane reason George can't sign a max deal until after next year.
As for Crawford, they didn't trade him because they were trying to contend, not because they couldn't get anything for him.
And you can't say the Celtics didn't give up prospects for KP, George or Butler because they were unwilling. They didn't trade fir any of them because of cap concerns. They need to sign Hayward first. Trading fir a high salary guy limits their ability to do that. You might be right. They might not be willing to trade much for Blake, but you can't infer that because of who they haven't traded for previously.
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
Call me a masochist, call it hindsight, but I'm glad I spent all that time as a Warrior fan before they got good. Before this run, the Dubs were terrible for pretty much my entire life.
Suffering through all that crap, makes the current success that much sweeter. I'm sure the bandwagon fans are enjoying themselves, but they'll never truly appreciate everything going on. They don't know how to feels to watch 60+ losses, a player choke his coach, players leaving the Dubs and then becoming studs, and draft pick after draft pick turn into nothing.
So now that we've won 67+ games the past three seasons, have a great coach, and a front office that has been lights out....this is pretty much sports fan nirvana for me. I know it's not gonna last forever, so I'm cherishing every moment of it.
SoCalBroncoFan
Footballguy
And you are right, most likely their best days are behind them. Most teams that get old go through the same thing. I just was trying to point out a way for them to possibly reload on the fly. I just don't want to throw dirt on them because they are the Clippers. The past is the past. I would like to leave it there.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Blake opted out because he would make 20 million this coming year, other teams can offer more and so can the Clippers. I am pretty sure it had nothing to do with how much the Clippers could pay him.
They were actively shopping Crawford the last 2 years, even while contending. It didn't happen.
Last point is most likely moot if he signs with the Clippers because of the no trade clause, but if the Celtics make a run at him during free agency and he goes back to the Clippers I doubt they would try to trade for him this year.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I am happy for you, but you have no way of knowing that. Even if you did know that, what is the difference between feeling the pain of watching 60+ lose teams and being even more happy then the bandwagon fan now vs. not feeling the pain and enjoying other hobbies and being slightly less happy when the Dubs are great? I would take option B
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Incorrect. It's something they are eligible to negotiate for but it's not automatic.
The 5 year, max raise deal, yes. You can sign and trade for the "max" 4 year deal the player could sign for with another team.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I apologize, I thought it was automatic for a player signing a max deal and met the other 2 requirements. Kind of like baseball's 10 and 5 rule.
I do think they are both going to ask for the no trade, especially Paul.
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Charlie Harper
Footballguy
To each his own. I guess part of it is I actually enjoying watching the game of basketball. If there's a NBA game, I'll likely watch that over anything else. So watching a ####ty Dubs team was still enjoyable to me.
Regarding my enjoyment vs. a bandwagon fan. I think it's like the feeling a parent feels when they see their child succeed vs when an aunt/uncle sees their nephew/niece succeed. Both are happy for the child, but parents are way more happy because of the investment into the child.
Also, just because I am a die hard fan, doesn't mean I let the outcome of the game affect my happiness. Sure it sucked when they lost, but oh well it was never more than a few angry words that went away after I jerked off that night.
SoCalBroncoFan
Footballguy
No trade clause rules: (sorry if it's a little long)
Negotiated No-Trade Clauses
A player may negotiate a trade bonus for a new contract if he has 8 or more years of service in the NBA and has 4 or more years of service with the team.[1] For example, if Kevin Durant wanted a no-trade clause in his next contract, he could have one as long as he signed with the Oklahoma City Thunder.
It’s important to note that a no-trade clause will still apply after the player has been traded. Kevin Garnett’s situation in 2014-15 is instructive here. After being traded to the Celtics in 2007 with 2 years remaining on his contract, Garnett signed an extension keeping him under contract through the 2011-12 season. In the summer of 2012 Garnett signed a 3-year, $36,000,000 contract to stay with the Celtics. Because he had well over 8 years of service in the NBA and had been with the Celtics for 5 seasons, he was able to get a no-trade clause in this contract. In order to facilitate his trade to the Brooklyn Nets during the summer of 2013, Garnett waived his no-trade clause. Despite this, once the trade to the Nets was complete the no-trade clause went back into effect. This resulted in Garnett needing to waive it again in 2014-15 to facilitate his trade from the Nets to the Minnesota Timberwolves.
Naturally Occurring No-Trade Clauses
Some no-trade causes naturally occur because of the nature of player’s new contract and the Bird Rights situation with his team. Technically, these “no-trade clauses” are an automatic function of a Collective Bargaining Agreement rule rather than a clause that is put into a player contract. They are not negotiated by the player’s agent and they cannot be waived prematurely.[2] Any player who signs a 1-year contract (not including any option years) who could be a Bird Free Agent or an Early Bird Free Agent at the end of the upcoming season, cannot be traded without their consent. Note that this does not apply to players on 1-year contracts that will be Non-Bird Free Agents at season’s end, such as Amir Johnson with the Boston Celtics, Jeremy Lin with the Charlotte Hornets, or Jason Smith with the Orlando Magic for the 2015-16 season.
A good example here is J.R. Smith. Smith was under a 3-year contract with the New York Knicks with the 3rd year being a player option. Smith was traded to the Cleveland Cavaliers in 2014-15 during the 2nd year of that contract. After the 2014-15 season he declined his player option and signed a 2-year contract with the Cavs, the 2nd year being a player option. Because Smith will become a Bird Free Agent after the 2015-16 season , his 2-year contract with the Cavs has a naturally occurring no-trade clause that applies until June 30, 2016. If, however, Smith opts into his player option for 2016-17, the no-trade clause will no longer apply because after opting in Smith will not be playing on a 1-year contract.
Negotiated No-Trade Clauses
A player may negotiate a trade bonus for a new contract if he has 8 or more years of service in the NBA and has 4 or more years of service with the team.[1] For example, if Kevin Durant wanted a no-trade clause in his next contract, he could have one as long as he signed with the Oklahoma City Thunder.
It’s important to note that a no-trade clause will still apply after the player has been traded. Kevin Garnett’s situation in 2014-15 is instructive here. After being traded to the Celtics in 2007 with 2 years remaining on his contract, Garnett signed an extension keeping him under contract through the 2011-12 season. In the summer of 2012 Garnett signed a 3-year, $36,000,000 contract to stay with the Celtics. Because he had well over 8 years of service in the NBA and had been with the Celtics for 5 seasons, he was able to get a no-trade clause in this contract. In order to facilitate his trade to the Brooklyn Nets during the summer of 2013, Garnett waived his no-trade clause. Despite this, once the trade to the Nets was complete the no-trade clause went back into effect. This resulted in Garnett needing to waive it again in 2014-15 to facilitate his trade from the Nets to the Minnesota Timberwolves.
Naturally Occurring No-Trade Clauses
Some no-trade causes naturally occur because of the nature of player’s new contract and the Bird Rights situation with his team. Technically, these “no-trade clauses” are an automatic function of a Collective Bargaining Agreement rule rather than a clause that is put into a player contract. They are not negotiated by the player’s agent and they cannot be waived prematurely.[2] Any player who signs a 1-year contract (not including any option years) who could be a Bird Free Agent or an Early Bird Free Agent at the end of the upcoming season, cannot be traded without their consent. Note that this does not apply to players on 1-year contracts that will be Non-Bird Free Agents at season’s end, such as Amir Johnson with the Boston Celtics, Jeremy Lin with the Charlotte Hornets, or Jason Smith with the Orlando Magic for the 2015-16 season.
A good example here is J.R. Smith. Smith was under a 3-year contract with the New York Knicks with the 3rd year being a player option. Smith was traded to the Cleveland Cavaliers in 2014-15 during the 2nd year of that contract. After the 2014-15 season he declined his player option and signed a 2-year contract with the Cavs, the 2nd year being a player option. Because Smith will become a Bird Free Agent after the 2015-16 season , his 2-year contract with the Cavs has a naturally occurring no-trade clause that applies until June 30, 2016. If, however, Smith opts into his player option for 2016-17, the no-trade clause will no longer apply because after opting in Smith will not be playing on a 1-year contract.
SoCalBroncoFan
Footballguy
So the 8 years, 4 with current team only gives you the option to negotiate for a no trade clause. You can't even get one with 8/4.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
8 years of service and 4 years with one team. It doesn't have to be the current team/signing team. Best example is LeBron, he hasn't been back with the Cavs for 4 years and he has one.
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Insein
Footballguy
Garnett working out with Embiid and Saric
Shows just how damn tall Saric and Embiid are. They make Garnett look like a small forward.
Shows just how damn tall Saric and Embiid are. They make Garnett look like a small forward.
SoCalBroncoFan
Footballguy
No, he has one for the second scenario spelled out. If you sign a two year deal and the second year is a player option, and you would have Bitd rights if you opt out after the first year, you have a no trade clause. Not sure exactly why, but the second scenario spells out how. That is why most no trades fall under that umbrella.
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