2017-18 NBA (Playoffs): A gasping, wheezing thread begs message board poster arguing how Jordan never lost a Finals to just let it die in peace (1 Viewer)

[Deamon]

Capella, your thread title game is on point.

 

[Bobcat10]

When LeBron leaves this dumpster fire of a team does he help the hope team by allowing sign and trade or look out for #1 and not hurt his future squad? Assume the latter?

Think of how miserable Love is going to be when LBJ is gone and he still has to live in Cleveland. 

If it's crappy contracts (when Dan is already neck deep into the cap) and crappy draft picks, they probably just let him walk.  What did they get out the Miami S&T?  

 

[SWC]

labrohan is going to look pretty damned good in a bucks uniform that is all i am sayin take that to the bank bromigos 

 

[drpill]

I think a real dark horse candidate for Lebron is San Antonio. They've been mentioned as one of his top options in the press, and James has tons of love for Popovich as a coach and a person. They'd have to mend fences with Kawhi and prove that he's healthy, and shed some contracts (Gasol or Mills) to make cap space, but it's financially doable. A core of LBJ, Kawhi and Aldridge with all-defensive second team Dejounte Murray (who has a close relationship with James) at the point, surrounded by some decent shooters, would definitely be a huge problem for Golden State.

 

[Deamon]

I think a real dark horse candidate for Lebron is San Antonio. They've been mentioned as one of his top options in the press, and James has tons of love for Popovich as a coach and a person. They'd have to mend fences with Kawhi and prove that he's healthy, and shed some contracts (Gasol or Mills) to make cap space, but it's financially doable. A core of LBJ, Kawhi and Aldridge with all-defensive second team Dejounte Murray (who has a close relationship with James) at the point, surrounded by some decent shooters, would definitely be a huge problem for Golden State.

Good post.  Not sure why teams like Portland are being mentioned over them.  That being said, why would he pick San Antonio over Houston if both can afford him?  I think he stays in the East. 

 

[Charlie Harper]

I think a real dark horse candidate for Lebron is San Antonio. They've been mentioned as one of his top options in the press, and James has tons of love for Popovich as a coach and a person. They'd have to mend fences with Kawhi and prove that he's healthy, and shed some contracts (Gasol or Mills) to make cap space, but it's financially doable. A core of LBJ, Kawhi and Aldridge with all-defensive second team Dejounte Murray (who has a close relationship with James) at the point, surrounded by some decent shooters, would definitely be a huge problem for Golden State.

I'd take a team of LBJ and Kawhi over the Dubs.

 

[Bull Dozier]

Good post.  Not sure why teams like Portland are being mentioned over them.  That being said, why would he pick San Antonio over Houston if both can afford him?  I think he stays in the East. 

Pop.

 

[drpill]

Good post.  Not sure why teams like Portland are being mentioned over them.  That being said, why would he pick San Antonio over Houston if both can afford him?  I think he stays in the East. 

I can think of at least two reasons to prefer the Spurs. Popovich as a coach is probably a bigger draw than D'Antoni; he and James have been batting eyelashes at each other for years. And Kawhi would be a much better fit as a running mate for Lebron than Harden, who is a ball hog. I have a hard time seeing there being enough possessions for both of them, whereas Kawhi would be a natural as the Pippen to LBJ's Jordan.

That said, Houston has their own advantages, primarily LBJ's friendship with Chris Paul. San Antonio's not a very attractive destination as far as NBA cities go, but Lebron takes the spotlight with him wherever he lands so if he's really concerned about winning that wouldn't be an issue. I agree though that it's most likely he stays in the Eastern conference.

 

[thecatch]

  That being said, why would he pick San Antonio over Houston if both can afford him?  

In addition to the reasons others have given, it’s just easier for SA to clear the necessary space.

 

[Deamon]

I can think of at least two reasons to prefer the Spurs. Popovich as a coach is probably a bigger draw than D'Antoni; he and James have been batting eyelashes at each other for years. And Kawhi would be a much better fit as a running mate for Lebron than Harden, who is a ball hog. I have a hard time seeing there being enough possessions for both of them, whereas Kawhi would be a natural as the Pippen to LBJ's Jordan.

That said, Houston has their own advantages, primarily LBJ's friendship with Chris Paul. San Antonio's not a very attractive destination as far as NBA cities go, but Lebron takes the spotlight with him wherever he lands so if he's really concerned about winning that wouldn't be an issue. I agree though that it's most likely he stays in the Eastern conference.

Great reasons.  I'm not sure Houston is THAT much more attractive as a city goes than SA either.  SA certainly would be an interesting fit.  I would totally randomly rank his choices as:

Philly 30%
LA Lakers 20%
Cleveland 20% (was higher before this week)
Houston 10%
San Antonio 10%
Other Team 10%

 

[Deamon]

I kind of doubt he's going to go to a smaller city.  Can't see Portland, Indiana, Milwaukee getting him.  NY makes sense for his empire, but not the team.  If he wants to be in that NY market, I think he goes to Philly.

I know this is a really old article everyone has probably read, but there's some good thoughts in it:

https://www.theringer.com/2018/2/23/17043258/lebron-james-lakers-sixers-michael-jordan-free-agency-narrative

 

[tommyboy]

don't really follow this thread but i just popped in to say to WHOMEVER is writing the title, you sir are a friggin genius. 

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

It will be interesting to see if LeBron can motivate himself if this year ends disappointingly.  He is at an age when it seems it takes greater effort to sustain results.  When I listen to him he says the fire burns brightly and his game seems to more than confirm that, but I wonder since disappointment so often takes a toll.

I also wonder about ego.  He has been able to integrate himself into systems as the star willing, admirably, to share the spotlight, but will he take a back seat to someone else, we have never seen that dynamic from him yet.  Given his penchant for understanding basketball history I am going to guess that to an extent he may.  Jabbar did it, Dr. J. why not Lebron.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

if i were a GM in Atlanta, Orlando, Sacramento or New York i wouldn't even give Lebron a sniff at the vet mininum. guy just doesn't want it badly enough.

NY will wait until the next time he's a free agent at 39 and then offer him a max deal.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

don't really follow this thread but i just popped in to say to WHOMEVER is writing the title, you sir are a friggin genius. 

Dodds

 

[Anarchy99]

I think a real dark horse candidate for Lebron is San Antonio. They've been mentioned as one of his top options in the press, and James has tons of love for Popovich as a coach and a person. They'd have to mend fences with Kawhi and prove that he's healthy, and shed some contracts (Gasol or Mills) to make cap space, but it's financially doable. A core of LBJ, Kawhi and Aldridge with all-defensive second team Dejounte Murray (who has a close relationship with James) at the point, surrounded by some decent shooters, would definitely be a huge problem for Golden State.

The Spurs are already set to spend right to the cap for next year. Even if they traded Gasol and Mills ($28.5 million combined), they would still have to take back over $22 million in salary (based on the 125% plus $100,000 salary rules for salary matching). I believe it would be difficult if not impossible to free up enough space to sign LeBron as a free agent (teams have to be under the salary cap after signing a free agent to sign other team's free agents).

LeBron could opt in to his current contract for one more year at $35.6 million and agree to a trade. Or he could opt out and do a sign and trade. (I suppose he could opt out and elect to play for way under market value if he wanted, but I don't think he would take way less . . . he'd probably want a super max deal in a sign and trade.)

Not sure what would be in it for the Cavs to trade James to the Spurs (are SA draft picks that coveted?) and the same issue would apply. SA would have to ship out like $30 million in annual salary to take on LeBron's contract. Maybe they could get away with trading Gasol (2 years and $32 million left) and Mills (3 years, $39 million remaining), but would CLE even want them? Does that help the Cavs any? If LeBron signed a super max deal, SA would have to send even more for the salary matching component.

Bottom line, I don't think there is a simple way to have Leonard, Aldridge, and James on the Spurs together. If LeBron did a super max sign and trade, that would be around $82 million for the three of them.

 

[Chaos Commish]

I kind of doubt he's going to go to a smaller city.  Can't see Portland, Indiana, Milwaukee getting him.  NY makes sense for his empire, but not the team.  If he wants to be in that NY market, I think he goes to Philly.

I know this is a really old article everyone has probably read, but there's some good thoughts in it:

https://www.theringer.com/2018/2/23/17043258/lebron-james-lakers-sixers-michael-jordan-free-agency-narrative

It was a fresh read for me thanks. I'm guilty of wet dreaming about Lebron in LA. Both italicized scenarios, Philly and LA, ring true to me. Making it a career in Cleveland also works. None of the others mentioned in this thread do (the article explains better than I could). When I try to predict the future around here it's always tongue in cheek unless I'm willing to bet a little. As of yesterday I'm willing to bet a little on LA if I find the odds I've seen some places are available. Lebron and his closest people make the claim that he doesn't put much into these decisions during the season. When it's over he takes a week to relax. Then he looks at options with his business team and goes from there. I believe that's pretty close to reality. I'm probably thinking about it more than he is, atm. 

 

[drpill]

The Spurs are already set to spend right to the cap for next year. Even if they traded Gasol and Mills ($28.5 million combined), they would still have to take back over $22 million in salary (based on the 125% plus $100,000 salary rules for salary matching). I believe it would be difficult if not impossible to free up enough space to sign LeBron as a free agent (teams have to be under the salary cap after signing a free agent to sign other team's free agents).

LeBron could opt in to his current contract for one more year at $35.6 million and agree to a trade. Or he could opt out and do a sign and trade. (I suppose he could opt out and elect to play for way under market value if he wanted, but I don't think he would take way less . . . he'd probably want a super max deal in a sign and trade.)

Not sure what would be in it for the Cavs to trade James to the Spurs (are SA draft picks that coveted?) and the same issue would apply. SA would have to ship out like $30 million in annual salary to take on LeBron's contract. Maybe they could get away with trading Gasol (2 years and $32 million left) and Mills (3 years, $39 million remaining), but would CLE even want them? Does that help the Cavs any? If LeBron signed a super max deal, SA would have to send even more for the salary matching component.

Bottom line, I don't think there is a simple way to have Leonard, Aldridge, and James on the Spurs together. If LeBron did a super max sign and trade, that would be around $82 million for the three of them.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge here. I've seen other analysis that seems to indicate that they could make the room for him, but my brain glazes over when I start reading about the salary cap. 

https://projectspurs.com/2018/01/18/the-spurs-current-cap-situation/

If the Spurs’ wanted to open max space this off-season, the easiest path would be trading Pau Gasol to a team with the cap space to absorb his contract. The Spurs’ would most likely need to include one or multiple draft picks and a young, talented player, such as Dejounte Murray, for the other team to accept absorbing a $16.8 million dollar contract. Trading Gasol and Murray to shed space next off-season would free San Antonio’s cap space up to $35,950,136, after accounting for roster charges and assuming Ginobili retires and the Spurs’ stretch his contract. This would leave the Spurs with only four players under contract and just enough space to sign a veteran free agent, however, which makes the series of events unlikely for the Spurs.

In all, it does seem unrealistic, but if Lebron wants to be in San Antonio you know they would try to make it work.

 

[tjnc09]

I'd take a team of LBJ and Kawhi over the Dubs.

That would definitely be a great series.  

I hope James goes somewhere competitive so people stop complaining about Durant.  

 

[thecatch]

If Gay and Green opt out (very plausible), and SA trades a first rounder to unload Gasol, they can get up to $33m in space.  They could unload derrick white to free up $34.8m. 

 

[Weebs210]

I just wanted to tell you guys I'm back from my forced vacation. 

 

[Gr00vus]

Lebron on Trump "disinviting" the Philadelphia Eagles to the White House:

I'm not his biggest fan but stuff like this has me reconsidering.

Dude busted his ### campaigning for HRC. I imagine his reaction to the outcome of her incompetent campaign was pretty similar to what went on prior to OT in game 1. Guy puts in Herculean efforts only to see the people he's trying to drag to the top let him down in baffling ways.

 

[Stuart Ullman]

Thanos?

 

[Anarchy99]

If Gay and Green opt out (very plausible), and SA trades a first rounder to unload Gasol, they can get up to $33m in space.  They could unload derrick white to free up $34.8m. 

If Gay and Green opt out, that would free up $18.8 million in cap space. White is not really worth mentioning. His salary is like $1.6 million, and trading him would only free up $500K in cap space. Teams can trade draft picks as an incentive, but if they move Gasol they have to adhere to the salary matching rules. His salary is $16 million. They would have to take back at least $12.8 million in salary if they traded him. That would free up $3.2 million in space. If  my math is right, all the moves you just suggested would free up a total $22.5 million in cap space (at least in theory). Depending upon how the moves played out, they may not have enough players on the roster (and the minimum roster spot allocation is $840K per roster spot). Is LeBron willing to play for $22.5 million a year? I don't know what other moves could be made, but that is the simple math as things stand now.

 

[bryhamm]

Well that, and the fact that Boston was the better team.  Cleveland is probably one of the worst rosters to ever reach a Finals, and they're playing the greatest team of all time.  Huge difference.  

You bite your Laker tongue

 

[drpill]

If Gay and Green opt out, that would free up $18.8 million in cap space. White is not really worth mentioning. His salary is like $1.6 million, and trading him would only free up $500K in cap space. Teams can trade draft picks as an incentive, but if they move Gasol they have to adhere to the salary matching rules. His salary is $16 million. They would have to take back at least $12.8 million in salary if they traded him. That would free up $3.2 million in space. If  my math is right, all the moves you just suggested would free up a total $22.5 million in cap space (at least in theory). Depending upon how the moves played out, they may not have enough players on the roster (and the minimum roster spot allocation is $840K per roster spot). Is LeBron willing to play for $22.5 million a year? I don't know what other moves could be made, but that is the simple math as things stand now.

Can you explain to me how "non-simultaneous" deals work? Is this applicable here? Could the Spurs trade Gasol (for example) and get a trade exception?

In non-simultaneous deals, a team can trade away a single player without immediately taking salary back in return. The team then has up to one year in which it can acquire multiple players whose salaries amount to no more than the traded player's salary (plus $100K).

(Taken from https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2012/06/traded-player-exception.html)

 

[Bobcat10]

I just wanted to tell you guys I'm back from my forced vacation. 

Interesting, and welcome back

 

[thecatch]

If Gay and Green opt out, that would free up $18.8 million in cap space. White is not really worth mentioning. His salary is like $1.6 million, and trading him would only free up $500K in cap space. Teams can trade draft picks as an incentive, but if they move Gasol they have to adhere to the salary matching rules. His salary is $16 million. They would have to take back at least $12.8 million in salary if they traded him. That would free up $3.2 million in space. If  my math is right, all the moves you just suggested would free up a total $22.5 million in cap space (at least in theory). Depending upon how the moves played out, they may not have enough players on the roster (and the minimum roster spot allocation is $840K per roster spot). Is LeBron willing to play for $22.5 million a year? I don't know what other moves could be made, but that is the simple math as things stand now.

There are teams that could take Gasol into cap space. 

 

[thecatch]

Can you explain to me how "non-simultaneous" deals work? Is this applicable here? Could the Spurs trade Gasol (for example) and get a trade exception?

(Taken from https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2012/06/traded-player-exception.html)

Yes, but they couldn’t combine that trade exception with anything else to make a trade work IIRC. 

 

[Anarchy99]

There are teams that could take Gasol into cap space. 

That isn’t the issue. The issue is the Spurs would have to take back at least 80% of Gasol’s salary in return. As others have mentioned, if a third team gets involved there are some exemptiions or exceptions available, but that is above my pay grade. 

 

[Capella]

Dodds

Listen man. 

 

[Short Corner]

That isn’t the issue. The issue is the Spurs would have to take back at least 80% of Gasol’s salary in return. As others have mentioned, if a third team gets involved there are some exemptiions or exceptions available, but that is above my pay grade. 

There is only matching if the team taking on more salary is over the cap.  If he is traded to a team that has space, salaries are irrelevant.

 

[thecatch]

That isn’t the issue. The issue is the Spurs would have to take back at least 80% of Gasol’s salary in return. As others have mentioned, if a third team gets involved there are some exemptiions or exceptions available, but that is above my pay grade. 

No, that’s not accurate. They could trade Gasol to a team with $17m in space without taking any salary back. 

 

[drpill]

Okay, now this is starting to make sense. Thanks guys.

 

[Bull Dozier]

That isn’t the issue. The issue is the Spurs would have to take back at least 80% of Gasol’s salary in return. As others have mentioned, if a third team gets involved there are some exemptiions or exceptions available, but that is above my pay grade. 

I don't think you are interpreting the rules correctly, but I could be wrong as well.  I believe there are no limits to a team reducing the salary cap burden.  They can dump salary as long as the other team does not exceed the cap by $100,000 post trade.  

 

[Deamon]

don't really follow this thread but i just popped in to say to WHOMEVER is writing the title, you sir are a friggin genius. 

So good. Makes me laugh out loud every time I read it haha

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Lebrin called Trump a bum, he is ok in my book.

 

[Deamon]

Listen man. 

Think I'm missing some inside joke here. 

 

[Anarchy99]

I don't think you are interpreting the rules correctly, but I could be wrong as well.  I believe there are no limits to a team reducing the salary cap burden.  They can dump salary as long as the other team does not exceed the cap by $100,000 post trade.  

You are right, I forgot about the no matching when taking on salary as long as you are under the cap rule. 

Not sure what number that is based off of and when, but based on Gasol’s salary I believe only 7 teams could take on his salary based on practical cap space numbers for next year.

Those would be the Lakers, Bulls, Sixers, Hawks, Kings, Mavs, and Rockets. Given that LAL, PHI, and HOU are trying to free up cap space, that doesn’t leave a lot of options. My point still stands though that a SAS draft pick isn’t worth all that much as sweetener to take on a bad contract. 

 

[thecatch]

You are right, I forgot about the no matching when taking on salary as long as you are under the cap rule. 

Not sure what number that is based off of and when, but based on Gasol’s salary I believe only 7 teams could take on his salary based on practical cap space numbers for next year.

Those would be the Lakers, Bulls, Sixers, Hawks, Kings, Mavs, and Rockets. Given that LAL, PHI, and HOU are trying to free up cap space, that doesn’t leave a lot of options. My point still stands though that a SAS draft pick isn’t worth all that much as sweeten to take on a bad contract. 

Brooklyn took on 2/30 of Carroll’s contract in exchange for a late first and a second. SA’s first and maybe a future second should be about the price for getting off Gasol.  

 

[Charlie Harper]

That isn’t the issue. The issue is the Spurs would have to take back at least 80% of Gasol’s salary in return. As others have mentioned, if a third team gets involved there are some exemptiions or exceptions available, but that is above my pay grade. 

If a team has the cap space, you don't need to take back 80%. 

 

[Bull Dozier]

You are right, I forgot about the no matching when taking on salary as long as you are under the cap rule. 

Not sure what number that is based off of and when, but based on Gasol’s salary I believe only 7 teams could take on his salary based on practical cap space numbers for next year.

Those would be the Lakers, Bulls, Sixers, Hawks, Kings, Mavs, and Rockets. Given that LAL, PHI, and HOU are trying to free up cap space, that doesn’t leave a lot of options. My point still stands though that a SAS draft pick isn’t worth all that much as sweeten to take on a bad contract. 

I do agree that it doesn't make significant difference considering the small number of teams that can take the contract free and clear.  I don't see any of those teams jumping at Gasol for taking a low 1st.

 

[Charlie Harper]

How many first rounders would you guys trade to get LBJ?

If I was a contending team I'd easily give up 2 1st for LBJ for likely 3 years of contention. 

 

[drpill]

I do agree that it doesn't make significant difference considering the small number of teams that can take the contract free and clear.  I don't see any of those teams jumping at Gasol for taking a low 1st.

Only 6.7M of Gasol's contract is guaranteed in 2019-20, so it's not quite as ugly as it looks. He could certainly help a team as a one year rental, and another piece could get a deal done.

 

[Frostillicus]

Giannis Antetokounmpo‏Verified account @Giannis_An34 17h17 hours ago

More

Just tried a corndog for the first time...Man God Bless America! #ForReaL

 

[Jayrod]

Giannis Antetokounmpo‏Verified account @Giannis_An34 17h17 hours ago

More

Just tried a corndog for the first time...Man God Bless America! #ForReaL

As a NBA fan and corn dog lover, this is perfect.

 

[Anarchy99]

How many first rounders would you guys trade to get LBJ?

If I was a contending team I'd easily give up 2 1st for LBJ for likely 3 years of contention. 

Not sure if this is a legit post, but . . .

1) At the moment, he's not available to trade. He would have to opt in to another year on his contract and waive his no trade clause.
2) Or he would have to do a sign and trade (likely for super max money).
3) If you are a contender, your draft picks aren't worth much to begin with (and you have to retain at least one draft pick every other draft).
4) You would likely pay a small fortune in luxury tax, because odds are you are already over the luxury tax, so in addition to paying LBJ his $40M, you will likely have to pay another $20M in luxury tax.

If you have workarounds for all of that, I'd love to hear your plan.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Only 6.7M of Gasol's contract is guaranteed in 2019-20, so it's not quite as ugly as it looks. He could certainly help a team as a one year rental, and another piece could get a deal done.

If the Spurs want to dump Gasol, trading him plus cash plus a late first for nothing isn't a bad deal.  Teams like the Hawks and Bulls aren't really looking to add players yet have no reason not be add salaries up to the floor.  They'd then agree to a buyout with Gasol so he could play for a good team of his choosing.  Win-win.

Edit: But one year cap space will be sold to the highest bidder and there might be way more sellers than buyers.  Cost might end up being more than a late first.

 

[Bobcat10]

Not sure if this is a legit post, but . . .

1) At the moment, he's not available to trade. He would have to opt in to another year on his contract and waive his no trade clause.
2) Or he would have to do a sign and trade (likely for super max money).
3) If you are a contender, your draft picks aren't worth much to begin with (and you have to retain at least one draft pick every other draft).
4) You would likely pay a small fortune in luxury tax, because odds are you are already over the luxury tax, so in addition to paying LBJ his $40M, you will likely have to pay another $20M in luxury tax.

If you have workarounds for all of that, I'd love to hear your plan.

Right, 3) the Cavs essentially would have to try to get (multiple) {unprotected} 1st rounders at least 4 years out, sit on them and hope they become something valuable. 

This is what they got from the Heat:

Two first-round picks, that must be used starting in 2013 and ending by 2017

2012 second-round pick Miami received from New Orleans

Future second-round pick Heat acquired from Oklahoma City

Cleveland can also swap first round picks with the Heat in 2012

The trade happened post draft summer 2010 and I'm not sure of the pick restrictions on those first two 1sts.  They obviously did not swap in 2012, barring injuries the Heat had no worries on that part of the deal.

 

[Anarchy99]

Right, 3) the Cavs essentially would have to try to get (multiple) {unprotected} 1st rounders at least 4 years out, sit on them and hope they become something valuable. 

This is what they got from the Heat:

The trade happened post draft summer 2010 and I'm not sure of the pick restrictions on those first two 1sts.  They obviously did not swap in 2012, barring injuries the Heat had no worries on that part of the deal.

The other issue will be that both teams in this scenario (CLE and the mystery contending team) will likely be well over the salary cap. So salary matching will most likely come into play.