2017-18 NBA (Playoffs): A gasping, wheezing thread begs message board poster arguing how Jordan never lost a Finals to just let it die in peace (4 Viewers)

[modogg]

I'd imagine he won't have to do this much heavy lifting wherever he lands next year. Even if that's staying in Cleveland, as I imagine him remaining there would be predicated on them adding some talent to help him out.

so looking at what vegas thinking, the 6'ers are the favorite to land Kawhi next year. Also looking at odds for Lebron, the Sixers are top 2 for where Cle will land. This is probably why the odds for the Celtics series have been so whacky, but if Sixers add Lebron and Kawhi, Lebron will be able to take some games off and enjoy his tour into retirement.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

kind of a royal rumble in here today

 

[tjnc09]

Other than the 2016 Thunder, when is the last time a West team other than the conference champ would have had a reasonable chance of taking down LeBron in the Finals?

San Antonio Spurs  

 

[Moe.]

Other than the 2016 Thunder, when is the last time a West team other than the conference champ would have had a reasonable chance of taking down LeBron in the Finals?

Reasonable chance? There are probably a couple per year. Last year's Rockets team would have had a "reasonable" chance. The Spurs pretty much every year, no? Is this a trick question?

 

[thecatch]

But the analysis was based entirely on losses suffered in the Conference playoffs. If you start contemplating injuries and whatnot you have to do it on both sides- this year's Celtics being the most obvious example, but also John Wall's broken hand in 2015, whatever the hell caused the 2014 Pacers and 2015 Hawks to implode after looking like world-beaters until March or so, etc.

Obviously the West minus its best team in a given year is still stronger than LeBron's opposition in the East. But the point was that the amazing record isn't entirely or even mostly about the "abysmal" East. It's mostly about LeBron and how much better he is than everyone else, just like how the Warriors' domination outside of that 2016 WCF is mostly about how awesome they've been.

I believe two things to be true:

(1) Lebron’s playoff record would be materially worse if he had been in the West his entire career;

(2) even if (1) is true, it wouldn’t (or shouldn’t, at least) affect our analysis of his GOAT status. 

 

[Moe.]

 I mean that 2015 Cavs team that made the finals might have lost in the first round of the Western Conference playoffs, and that was the year Durant was hurt and the Thunder missed the playoffs, so the West was down a contender. 

 

[SWC]

different players were the best in different eras and it is hard to compare across eras because the game changes but right now and for the past decade at least i think the best has been labrohan and i feel lucky to have watched him play take that to the bank brohans 

 

[Bobcat10]

 I mean that 2015 Cavs team that made the finals might have lost in the first round of the Western Conference playoffs, and that was the year Durant was hurt and the Thunder missed the playoffs, so the West was down a contender. 

At least you said might, because as we know there's always a chance.

 

[TobiasFunke]

 I mean that 2015 Cavs team that made the finals might have lost in the first round of the Western Conference playoffs, and that was the year Durant was hurt and the Thunder missed the playoffs, so the West was down a contender. 

Again, the context here was one poster saying "look how few losses LeBron suffered to East teams" and another poster arguing that this just proves how much the East has always sucked.  My point was that it's more about how great LeBron is than how much the East sucks. 

So to do apples to apples you have to look at the path of the Spurs or Warriors and consider how many of those teams would have put up serious resistance to LeBron's teams. I don't see many teams in their paths, in the state they were in when the Spurs/Warriors played them, that would have taken down a LeBron team.

 

[Moe.]

At least you said might, because as we know there's always a chance.

The word used was reasonable. It's very reasonable to think that the 2015 Warriors, Grizzlies, Rockets, Spurs, and Clippers could have beaten the Cavs that year. All of those teams would have had home-court advantage.

That was before they changed the rules regarding seeding and division winners (the Trail Blazers were the 4 seed that year but had the 6th best record) but there were 5 teams in the West with better records than Cleveland. It would be unreasonable to think that none of those teams could have beaten the Cavs in the playoffs.

 

[Moe.]

Again, the context here was one poster saying "look how few losses LeBron suffered to East teams" and another poster arguing that this just proves how much the East has always sucked.  My point was that it's more about how great LeBron is than how much the East sucks. 

So to do apples to apples you have to look at the path of the Spurs or Warriors and consider how many of those teams would have put up serious resistance to LeBron's teams. I don't see many teams in their paths, in the state they were in when the Spurs/Warriors played them, that would have taken down a LeBron team.

Understood, I guess it helps to read the whole conversation. I was just responding to that specific post I quoted, my bad. I do think that the 2015 Cavs could have lost to just about anyone in the West that year though, honestly. 

 

[TobiasFunke]

Understood, I guess it helps to read the whole conversation. I was just responding to that specific post I quoted, my bad. I do think that the 2015 Cavs could have lost to just about anyone in the West that year though, honestly. 

Yeah, it was a specific argument about LeBron's record vs the East playoff teams he's faced since 2012 and what that says about the conference vs him. I don't think anyone would argue that the East and West have been on equal footing since 2012, but I'm not sure his record would be that different if you swap the Heat/Cavs in the 2013/14 Spurs or 2015-present Warriors in the brackets.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I said Lebron stomped them.  The rest of the Cleveland team pretty much blew for that entire series.  But back to my point..... people will look back and say "Oh yep, Lebron went through another weak east."  Even though Toronto, Indy, and Boston/Philly were all pretty good teams.

But they weren't that good.  Toronto was maybe a 4 or 5 seed if they were in the West.  Rather than a 1.

 

[TobiasFunke]

But they weren't that good.  Toronto was maybe a 4 or 5 seed if they were in the West.  Rather than a 1.

Toronto had a .633 win percentage vs the West this year, good enough for third in the West without including a single game against East opponents (which, if you are correct about the relative strength of the conferences, would further bump their total win percentage on the season).

How about if we all just agree that the West has been the superior conference since 2012 but that LeBron's run over that time is nevertheless amazing and not significantly cheapened by the fact that he plays in the East?

 

[tjnc09]

Yeah, it was a specific argument about LeBron's record vs the East playoff teams he's faced since 2012 and what that says about the conference vs him. I don't think anyone would argue that the East and West have been on equal footing since 2012, but I'm not sure his record would be that different if you swap the Heat/Cavs in the 2013/14 Spurs or 2015-present Warriors in the brackets.

There's usually only three or four teams in the postseason that realistically deserve a championship.  I'm certainly not arguing that every round of the West is a difficult matchup.  Teams like Portland are basically bye weeks for the elite.  

I honestly can't think of the last time I was that impressed by an East team - it's basically been GS, SA, OKC, Houston this year and James&co.  If Miami/Cleveland played in the West, he would still have several rings, but absolutely no way he makes it to the finals consecutively like he has.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

But they weren't that good.  Toronto was maybe a 4 or 5 seed if they were in the West.  Rather than a 1.

What are you talking about? They would have been a 2 seed in the West with 59 wins.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Toronto had a .633 win percentage vs the West this year, good enough for third in the West without including a single game against East opponents (which, if you are correct about the relative strength of the conferences, would further bump their total win percentage on the season).

How about if we all just agree that the West has been the superior conference since 2012 but that LeBron's run over that time is nevertheless amazing and not significantly cheapened by the fact that he plays in the East?

95% agree.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

What are you talking about? They would have been a 2 seed in the West with 59 wins.

Based on what?  Did I miss some alternate universe where they played an 82-game Western Conference schedule?

 

[Synthesizer]

But they weren't that good.  Toronto was maybe a 4 or 5 seed if they were in the West.  Rather than a 1.

So you're saying that the 4 or 5 seed in the West isn't a good team?

 

[JuniorGong]

so looking at what vegas thinking, the 6'ers are the favorite to land Kawhi next year. Also looking at odds for Lebron, the Sixers are top 2 for where Cle will land. This is probably why the odds for the Celtics series have been so whacky, but if Sixers add Lebron and Kawhi, Lebron will be able to take some games off and enjoy his tour into retirement.

What package do you think the Sixers can offer for Kawhi that the Spurs would accept?

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Based on what?  Did I miss some alternate universe where they played an 82-game Western Conference schedule?

Fair enough, but since it was their record it's still based on more than your assertion that they would be a 4 or 5 seed. You know, since you just pulled that out of your backside.

 

[tjnc09]

So you're saying that the 4 or 5 seed in the West isn't a good team?

Anybody outside of the elite three or four teams isn't worth talking about.  The Raptors are definitely not one of those teams.    

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

I mean honestly APK, to get to 4 seed you're taking 11 wins away from a Raptors team than went 19-11 vs the West in the real world.

 

[Synthesizer]

Anybody outside of the elite three or four teams isn't worth talking about.  The Raptors are definitely not one of those teams.    

You are arbitrarily deciding which teams "are worth talking about".  So if you want to put an asterisk next to Lebron's run, that's fine.  As long as you put the same asterisk next to Golden State the last 3 years, and San Antonio's run before that.

 

[mr. furley]

the anti-Lebron argument has come to "he's not that great because the rest of the NBA isn't any good"

that should pretty much put an end to the validity of these claims, yes?

 

[tjnc09]

You are arbitrarily deciding which teams "are worth talking about".  So if you want to put an asterisk next to Lebron's run, that's fine.  As long as you put the same asterisk next to Golden State the last 3 years, and San Antonio's run before that.

Why would I do that?  Golden State and San Antonio don't play in the East.  

There is a reason James makes it easily to the finals and then doesn't have as much success there.  It's not difficult to figure out.

 

[Boston]

What package do you think the Sixers can offer for Kawhi that the Spurs would accept?

I don't see how they could do it...outside of Simmons and Embiid (who they are not dealing) there is not much there when you are talking about landing a legit star...Fultz may get his act together but the Spurs are not making him the centerpiece of a deal of that magnitude...way too much room for error...if the Lakers pick ends up at #1 (very slim chance...and if it is 2-5 the Celtics get it) and Pop sees a franchise level player there that could get things started...other than that I just don't see an angle as to how it could get done...

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Based on what?  Did I miss some alternate universe where they played an 82-game Western Conference schedule?

Yes, it was ####### awesome

 

[Bobcat10]

The word used was reasonable. It's very reasonable to think that the 2015 Warriors, Grizzlies, Rockets, Spurs, and Clippers could have beaten the Cavs that year. All of those teams would have had home-court advantage.

That was before they changed the rules regarding seeding and division winners (the Trail Blazers were the 4 seed that year but had the 6th best record) but there were 5 teams in the West with better records than Cleveland. It would be unreasonable to think that none of those teams could have beaten the Cavs in the playoffs.

A lot of these stupid disputes, in many threads not just here, are because of the quoting. I was responding just to your post which did not reference another post and you did not use reasonable. I know what you’re saying though and I agree, although it’s a slim chance. Their “Big 3” would have been intact, hard to see LeBron losing a series to many teams.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Fair enough, but since it was their record it's still based on more than your assertion that they would be a 4 or 5 seed. You know, since you just pulled that out of your backside.

True!   Very fair comment!

 

[Moe.]

A lot of these stupid disputes, in many threads not just here, are because of the quoting. I was responding just to your post which did not reference another post and you did not use reasonable. I know what you’re saying though and I agree, although it’s a slim chance. Their “Big 3” would have been intact, hard to see LeBron losing a series to many teams.

Ha, good point. I jumped in the middle of their conversation for sure.  

I think they would have definitely lost more than 2 games though (in 2015), which is sort of the whole argument that they are having. There is no comparison in terms of the back half of the playoff teams in each conference over the course of his career. A lot of those 4-0 series become 4-1 or 4-2, which adds up over 15 years. 

@thecatch summed it up perfectly in like two sentences anyways so I’m not sure why I’m still rambling on about it. LeBron is simply amazing. 

 

[wikkidpissah]

What package do you think the Sixers can offer for Kawhi that the Spurs would accept?

Saric (a player who i've called an acceptable #3 on a contender because he's an equally good shooter/rebounder/passer but we havent seen the latter because the coach only sees 3&D guys - actually he's just as fine with 3 & no D guys - on his wings) and the LA pick or Fultz would be a competitive offer for a one-year superstar rental

 

[modogg]

What package do you think the Sixers can offer for Kawhi that the Spurs would accept?

i think we discussed this before. to be honest, i have no idea, probably depends on what the Spurs want. My guess is if they lose Kawhi, and have a 34 year old Aldridge left and not much, they would want to go young and get draft picks. probably also really depends on how much Kawhi wants out. 

let's say Kawhi tells them his leg still isn't healed and sits out all off-season and to start the season. one would think the Spurs would look him sooner rather than later in that case. so the answer to your question is it all depends on if Kawhi and the team have a significant barrier with each other, or not. there have been articles written on it already.

maybe a mix of players (Fultz, Covington, Saric) and draft picks (#10 this year). 

you seem not convinced with those pieces, just saying Vegas is the one having the 6'ers as the favorite

 

[modogg]

I don't see how they could do it...outside of Simmons and Embiid (who they are not dealing) there is not much there when you are talking about landing a legit star...Fultz may get his act together but the Spurs are not making him the centerpiece of a deal of that magnitude...way too much room for error...if the Lakers pick ends up at #1 (very slim chance...and if it is 2-5 the Celtics get it) and Pop sees a franchise level player there that could get things started...other than that I just don't see an angle as to how it could get done...

i was surprised the 6ers were favored, and usually that means somebody knows something. could be all pure speculation. will make for talking points at least pre-draft

i think it all honesty comes down to the relationship between Kawhi and the Spurs. all the news we have heard could be posturing by Kawhi and his team before the final season of his contract. could all be real, only a few people really know. but that seems to be the real thing to figure out, and if it is established if Kawhi wants out, then we can go from there. His camp saying they really only want NY, LA and Philly probably was said with some intention behind it, but again, who knows

 

[Boston]

i was surprised the 6ers were favored, and usually that means somebody knows something. could be all pure speculation. will make for talking points at least pre-draft

i think it all honesty comes down to the relationship between Kawhi and the Spurs. all the news we have heard could be posturing by Kawhi and his team before the final season of his contract. could all be real, only a few people really know. but that seems to be the real thing to figure out, and if it is established if Kawhi wants out, then we can go from there. His camp saying they really only want NY, LA and Philly probably was said with some intention behind it, but again, who knows

Something is definitely off in the Leonard/Spurs relationship...that seems apparent...would not be surprised to see a major deal go down and the rumors do point to Leonard looking to play in a major market...my guess is the Lakers make a big push to acquire Leonard and lure LeBron as well...assuming Philly is not gonna move Embiid or Simmons (and why would they) the Lakers can offer a better package having youngsters like Ingram, Ball and Kuzma...Leonard is also from LA...if the C's want to get involved it would be tough for anyone to beat them as they have Tatum, Brown, Rozier and the Kings pick next year...I hope they don't as I would hate to see Tatum and Brown in another uniform although at this point I totally trust Ainge...gotta believe the Knicks would love to land him but outside of Porzingas and his torn ACL they really don't have anything to offer...   

 

[msudaisy26]

The way trades have shook out with stars the last 18 months and the everything that is happened with Kawhi this year I am not sure anyone knows what the Spurs will get for him.

 

[JuniorGong]

i think we discussed this before. to be honest, i have no idea, probably depends on what the Spurs want. My guess is if they lose Kawhi, and have a 34 year old Aldridge left and not much, they would want to go young and get draft picks. probably also really depends on how much Kawhi wants out. 

let's say Kawhi tells them his leg still isn't healed and sits out all off-season and to start the season. one would think the Spurs would look him sooner rather than later in that case. so the answer to your question is it all depends on if Kawhi and the team have a significant barrier with each other, or not. there have been articles written on it already.

maybe a mix of players (Fultz, Covington, Saric) and draft picks (#10 this year). 

you seem not convinced with those pieces, just saying Vegas is the one having the 6'ers as the favorite

I’m not the Spurs GM so doesn’t really matter what I think and really just curious what someone that follows the team thinks it will take. 

 

[modogg]

Something is definitely off in the Leonard/Spurs relationship...that seems apparent...would not be surprised to see a major deal go down and the rumors do point to Leonard looking to play in a major market...my guess is the Lakers make a big push to acquire Leonard and lure LeBron as well...assuming Philly is not gonna move Embiid or Simmons (and why would they) the Lakers can offer a better package having youngsters like Ingram, Ball and Kuzma...Leonard is also from LA...if the C's want to get involved it would be tough for anyone to beat them as they have Tatum, Brown, Rozier and the Kings pick next year...I hope they don't as I would hate to see Tatum and Brown in another uniform although at this point I totally trust Ainge...gotta believe the Knicks would love to land him but outside of Porzingas and his torn ACL they really don't have anything to offer...   

agree about NY, just can't see any chance. I would be really surprised with the LA angle. I could see them maybe offerring enough for Kawhi, but i don't see any way Lebron goes to the Lakers. they can try, and Lebron knows how to milk the market, but i don't know why he would choose to go there. I honestly think Lebron has known what he wants to do pretty much all year, and there just seems to be too much smoke for Philly to not be the spot. 

and in all honesty, i am not sure that Tatum and Brown would be as good after being traded. Similar to most of the players that have left the Celtics under Stevens, i just think he knows how to maximize his guys. i hear the talk of trading Rozier, but something tells me the market might not be that excited for him seeing how Avery and IT have done once leaving Boston. i think that will be really interesting, along with Smart. I would guess Smart can get $10mil or so on the market, so wondering where he will go. And it will be interesting to see what Kyrie wants to do in 2 years, and if he will want to re-sign. I know all his talk about leaving Cle was he wants his own team, etc.,  but can he be up to share the ball with all the weapons on Boston? 

fun conversations for the off-season, will be interesting. 

 

[modogg]

The way trades have shook out with stars the last 18 months and the everything that is happened with Kawhi this year I am not sure anyone knows what the Spurs will get for him.

i do think Pop and Brown have a very strong relationship and if they pursue Kawhi that will be key. we are talking what the Spurs will want, but there is still a huge question of what a team is getting in Kawhi. I think Pop knows, and him and Brown seem to have a real legit relationship, so hopefully if the Sixers pursue they will have a good idea

 

[JuniorGong]

Good debate here on whether the Celtics or Sixers have a brighter future

https://www.google.com.mx/amp/amp.si.com/nba/2018/05/08/nba-playoffs-76ers-celtics-series-brighter-future-ben-simmons-jayson-tatum

 

[Boston]

agree about NY, just can't see any chance. I would be really surprised with the LA angle. I could see them maybe offerring enough for Kawhi, but i don't see any way Lebron goes to the Lakers. they can try, and Lebron knows how to milk the market, but i don't know why he would choose to go there. I honestly think Lebron has known what he wants to do pretty much all year, and there just seems to be too much smoke for Philly to not be the spot. 

and in all honesty, i am not sure that Tatum and Brown would be as good after being traded. Similar to most of the players that have left the Celtics under Stevens, i just think he knows how to maximize his guys. i hear the talk of trading Rozier, but something tells me the market might not be that excited for him seeing how Avery and IT have done once leaving Boston. i think that will be really interesting, along with Smart. I would guess Smart can get $10mil or so on the market, so wondering where he will go. And it will be interesting to see what Kyrie wants to do in 2 years, and if he will want to re-sign. I know all his talk about leaving Cle was he wants his own team, etc.,  but can he be up to share the ball with all the weapons on Boston? 

fun conversations for the off-season, will be interesting. 

I love your passion Modogg but you are so jaded with anything Boston...you are way off on Brown and Tatum...way off...they are #3 picks in the draft (and Tatum probably should have been #1) who were projected to be stars coming out of high school...they are not over-achieving players that Stevens is getting the best out of...they are top-shelf talents in a great situation...if Philly doesn't get a Lebron or a Leonard once the C's get Kyrie and Hayward back the gap between these teams is going to get bigger not smaller...add in the Kings pick next year and you have a team set up for the short and long term (Kyrie's knee God willing)... 

 

[Short Corner]

i do think Pop and Brown have a very strong relationship and if they pursue Kawhi that will be key. we are talking what the Spurs will want, but there is still a huge question of what a team is getting in Kawhi. I think Pop knows, and him and Brown seem to have a real legit relationship, so hopefully if the Sixers pursue they will have a good idea

Is Brown the GM?  Is Pop?

What the Spurs get will depend on what the market yields.  Sure there will be multiple suitors but they all know that Kawhi is leveraging his way out, similar to a couple of trades we saw last off season.  

 

[Chaos Commish]

Kid's incredible.

 

[modogg]

I love your passion Modogg but you are so jaded with anything Boston...you are way off on Brown and Tatum...way off...they are #3 picks in the draft (and Tatum probably should have been #1) who were projected to be stars coming out of high school...they are not over-achieving players that Stevens is getting the best out of...they are top-shelf talents in a great situation...if Philly doesn't get a Lebron or a Leonard once the C's get Kyrie and Hayward back the gap between these teams is going to get bigger not smaller...add in the Kings pick next year and you have a team set up for the short and long term (Kyrie's knee God willing)... 

well, in all sincerity i defer to you with these things. Brown certainly seems to have turned into something most didn't think he would when he was drafted, and i guess Ainge deserves credit for that (but to be honest, it seems like Stevens is almost King Midas himself, he probably gets close to 40 wins if he is coaching the Suns or something)

i do disagree with that huge gap between the teams in your scenario though. I am interested in how the team feels sharing one ball after Brown and Tatum have the success they are having this year. they aren't going back to the bench i would think. will be interesting how it plays out. they could make a huge leap when all healthy, and winning usually cuts down on discontentment, but we have yet to see 

 

[msudaisy26]

Live long enough and you will see everything. I just seen Chris Paul get to the conference finals and he is carrying them right now!

 

[modogg]

Good debate here on whether the Celtics or Sixers have a brighter future

https://www.google.com.mx/amp/amp.si.com/nba/2018/05/08/nba-playoffs-76ers-celtics-series-brighter-future-ben-simmons-jayson-tatum

Andre Sharp can suck a D the Sixer hater he is. Ben gets in that grey area too 

it is a fun debate though. i am still scared with the NBA firing Hinkie and Colangelo in charge of the ship, but he hasn't sunk it yet. it is a better feeling knowing you have lottery picks in future drafts as insurance too. 

either way though, i think the argument is kind of moot at this point. Could be a significant off-season for one or both teams that could change the landscape

 

[msudaisy26]

I love your passion Modogg but you are so jaded with anything Boston...you are way off on Brown and Tatum...way off...they are #3 picks in the draft (and Tatum probably should have been #1) who were projected to be stars coming out of high school...they are not over-achieving players that Stevens is getting the best out of...they are top-shelf talents in a great situation...if Philly doesn't get a Lebron or a Leonard once the C's get Kyrie and Hayward back the gap between these teams is going to get bigger not smaller...add in the Kings pick next year and you have a team set up for the short and long term (Kyrie's knee God willing)... 

Their is no doubt that the Celtics have talent coming out their ears, but it is getting all of to mesh once/if they all ever get healthy. It works in a place like Golden State because you don't have to call plays for Draymond and Klay doesn't mind being the 3rd option. 

It may or may not work for the Celtics having this much talent, but part of the reason you have all this talent is because one of those guys wanted his own team to lead and forced his way out from Cleveland. What happens if Tatum or Brown take that leap and become a superstar? I am not saying it won't work, but it is doubtful that it will be as easy as Kyrie and Hayward come back and Tatum, Brown, and Rozier keep playing like this as 3rd,4th and super sub options. 

If there is anyone that can get it to work it is Stevens though, and it is a nice problem to have.

 

[modogg]

Is Brown the GM?  Is Pop?

What the Spurs get will depend on what the market yields.  Sure there will be multiple suitors but they all know that Kawhi is leveraging his way out, similar to a couple of trades we saw last off season.  

no, but if i had to guess i think Pop has a better sense of what Kawhi is thinking then the GM does. SImilar to Brown vs. Colangelo. the key in any trade with that will be Kawhi's health and where his head is at. 

and yeah if it goes bad and there is no way Kawhi will return to the Spurs it will be interesting. Spurs may go best package they get, but they risk good will with future players if it is viewed as screwing over Kawhi (not likely this occurs, but should be considered). and if Kawhi is saying he only wants to go to a few teams, how much will the Spurs weigh on that? they could say screw it and just think the team first, but again, Kawhi has been there future for years, if they burn him pretty good it could hurt them with players. outside of Pop, there isn't much  attraction to the Spurs team. another interesting thing is like you mention above, with the trades last year. out of all of them, i would guess Indiana was the biggest winner? wondering how teams will want to weigh these big trades going forward

the ringer had a good article the other day about Kawhi and how it is becoming a new day in the NBA with players like Kyrie last year talking their way to a trade. Wondering if we will see more of this, and i wonder who could potentially be next? 

 

[Major]

That was a fun 4th quarter for Houston fans.  Good seeing CP3 in top form during clutch time.    

 

[Boston]

no, but if i had to guess i think Pop has a better sense of what Kawhi is thinking then the GM does. SImilar to Brown vs. Colangelo. the key in any trade with that will be Kawhi's health and where his head is at. 

and yeah if it goes bad and there is no way Kawhi will return to the Spurs it will be interesting. Spurs may go best package they get, but they risk good will with future players if it is viewed as screwing over Kawhi (not likely this occurs, but should be considered). and if Kawhi is saying he only wants to go to a few teams, how much will the Spurs weigh on that? they could say screw it and just think the team first, but again, Kawhi has been there future for years, if they burn him pretty good it could hurt them with players. outside of Pop, there isn't much  attraction to the Spurs team. another interesting thing is like you mention above, with the trades last year. out of all of them, i would guess Indiana was the biggest winner? wondering how teams will want to weigh these big trades going forward

the ringer had a good article the other day about Kawhi and how it is becoming a new day in the NBA with players like Kyrie last year talking their way to a trade. Wondering if we will see more of this, and i wonder who could potentially be next? 

These type of trades are nothing new...

https://www.thesportster.com/basketball/top-15-nba-superstars-who-forced-a-trade/