What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

2018 College Football Thread: Local man buys some teenage champions a 4 for 4 (4 Viewers)

Interesting coaching road

@RoobNBCS: Newly appointed Ohio State interim head coach Ryan Day was the Eagles' quarterbacks coach in 2015 under Chip Kelly.

Day played QB at New Hampshire when Chip was offensive coordinator and also had two coaching stints at Temple.

 
Politician Spock said:
In my opinion, he's been covering the abuse up since 2009.  Too many people (ok, let's just say it.... men) do this, 
Click to expand...
Although in this case, Meyer's wife - also on TOSU staff - should have reported it under existing rules at that time.  As an employee, she should have alerted the proper officials.  As a human being, she should have told (and probably did tell) her husband, who was responsible for the program.

 
Galileo said:
But weren't these incidents already reported to the police?  Were charges ever pressed against Zach Smith?  Was he ever charged with a crime before the recent trespassing charge that did lead to termination?  Are we now recommending that employers fire anyone who is alleged to have committed crime?    
Click to expand...
You're missing the point that up until like two weeks ago, he claimed he never heard anything about the alleged 2015 incident until it was just brought to his attention. That's why what came out today mattered.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
JaxBill said:
Interesting coaching road

@RoobNBCS: Newly appointed Ohio State interim head coach Ryan Day was the Eagles' quarterbacks coach in 2015 under Chip Kelly.

Day played QB at New Hampshire when Chip was offensive coordinator and also had two coaching stints at Temple.
Click to expand...
i thought that name sounded familiar but couldn't figure out why.

 
tri-man 47 said:
As Bret points out in the article, Mrs. Meyer - as an employee of TOSU - is under the same Title IX obligation to report.  

I can't imagine how Meyer and the university wiggle out of this one.  And geez, this one top of MSU ...and that on top of Penn State?  People were suggesting very harsh measures against the latter two, but others countered, "too harsh."  But when is the punishment enough to deter others?  This is crazy bad ...and crazy sad.
Click to expand...
Baylor.....

 
I know that OSU has a whole other scandal with the Wrestling team and who knows how far the institutional control issues go, but from what we know right now, are Meyer's actions (or inactions) really on the level of the PSU/MSU/Baylor scandals?

Is there more that he is alleged to have specifically done or covered up than the 1 coach's domestic abuse?

There's no excuse and I don't care what happens to him, just a little confused about some of the equivalence seemingly being thrown around between Meyer specifically and those other situations and wondering what facts I am missing.

 
Long Ball Larry said:
I know that OSU has a whole other scandal with the Wrestling team and who knows how far the institutional control issues go, but from what we know right now, are Meyer's actions (or inactions) really on the level of the PSU/MSU/Baylor scandals?

Is there more that he is alleged to have specifically done or covered up than the 1 coach's domestic abuse?

There's no excuse and I don't care what happens to him, just a little confused about some of the equivalence seemingly being thrown around between Meyer specifically and those other situations and wondering what facts I am missing.
Click to expand...
I think the lying is at the core of this one, but I could be missing something.  

 
Tom Servo said:
Assuming he knew about the 2015 incident, it's a Title IX violation for not reporting - that goes for his wife too since she teaches there.
Click to expand...
They had someone on Golic and Wingo this morning saying that is not true since nothing happened on campus and the victim was not a student.  They also brought up that RN's (Shelley) are to give caution to reporting these types of things as it could make the matters worse (not saying that is right or wrong, but what was reported)...and the correspondent brought up that Shelley was not acting as an RN in this situation, but as a friend, which muddies the water.

I admit that I am an OSU homer and have bias and want to give the benefit of the doubt, but if Urban flat out lied, that is a no-go and he should be gone.  If he knew of this and did nothing, while legally he could probably stay, he still needs to go.

 
General Malaise said:
I think the lying is at the core of this one, but I could be missing something.  
Click to expand...
He appears to have lied to the flippin' media.  No coach has ever done that before  :rolleyes:   He didn't lie to cops...or in a court of law...or to his bosses.  For all we know he may not have even lied to the media, although this seems rather unlikely at this juncture.

As far as the Title IX violation argument, can someone please show me where this is covered in Title IX?  I am not trying to be difficult, I truly do not know.  These acts of abuse were not being carried out against a student or employee of the school.  

 
####ting on Ohio State is always fun but here's the way to early and means nothing coaches poll

1. Alabama (61 first-place votes)
2. Clemson (3)
3. Ohio State (1)
4. Georgia
5. Oklahoma
6. Washington
7. Wisconsin
8. Miami
9. Penn State
10. Auburn
11. Notre Dame
12. Michigan State
13. Stanford
14. Michigan
15. USC
16. TCU
17. Virginia Tech
18. Mississippi State
19. Florida State
20. West Virginia
21. Texas
22. Boise State
23. UCF
24. LSU
25. Oklahoma State

 
Galileo said:
He appears to have lied to the flippin' media.  No coach has ever done that before  :rolleyes:   He didn't lie to cops...or in a court of law...or to his bosses.  For all we know he may not have even lied to the media, although this seems rather unlikely at this juncture.

As far as the Title IX violation argument, can someone please show me where this is covered in Title IX?  I am not trying to be difficult, I truly do not know.  These acts of abuse were not being carried out against a student or employee of the school.  
Click to expand...
I don't know what to tell you then. :shrug:

 
From Stewart Mandel....

 

Less than two weeks ago, the biggest concern in Urban Meyer’s football orbit likely was who his starting quarterback will be against Oregon State.

A little over a week ago, he flew to Chicago thinking he’d be spending his annual Big Ten Media Days appearance fielding questions about the usual mindless preseason chatter.

That the three-time national championship coach would begin preseason camp this week on paid administrative leave — his job very much in jeopardy amid a pending university investigation — did not seem like a remote possibility until Brett McMurphy’s latest bombshell report about former Buckeyes assistant Zach Smith on Wednesday morning.

And yet, here we are. And based on everything that’s been reported, this drastic turn of events somehow doesn’t seem all that surprising. If we’ve learned anything in college sports this decade, it’s that truly no one is untouchable. Not when it comes to allegations of violence by the members of one’s program.

Joe Paterno was the winningest coach in FBS history. He’d been the coach of Penn State for 45 years. He was fired within days of a grand jury indictment that indicated Paterno was told about one of Jerry Sandusky’s alleged assaults of a young boy.

Art Briles turned Baylor from perennial Big 12 doormat into back-to-back Big 12 champion and prompted the school to build a new stadium. But when a series of investigative reports uncovered a history of sexual violence by his players, Briles and virtually everyone else associated with the Bears’ rise to prominence was ousted.

Meyer isn’t fired yet. But Ohio State is concerned enough about the possibility to keep him off the sidelines when practice opens Friday. And frankly, after some of his galling statements at last week’s Media Days blew up in his face Wednesday, the onus will be on Meyer to prove he didn’t entrust his 18-to-22-year-old wide receivers to a grown man he knew to be violent and dangerous. Per his most recent contract, he can be fired for cause if he failed to“promptly report to Ohio State’s Deputy Title IX Coordinator for Athletics any known violations of Ohio State’s Sexual Misconduct Policy.”

Meyer admitted last week that he notified his bosses following Smith’s 2009 arrest for allegedly throwing his then-pregnant wife Courtney against a wall. He said Smith was an “intern” on his Florida staff at the time, and Meyer basically insinuated that the whole thing was just a case of a young couple figuring things out. “Domestic issues are a lot of ‘he said, she said,’ ” he said most dubiously.

And maybe that explanation would have held water if we didn’t learn over the next week that Smith was apparently a repeat domestic abuser — with pictures and text messages to prove it. And that at the very least, Meyer’s own wife, Shelley, knew all about it.

The question at the center of Ohio State’s investigation will be this: Was Urban Meyer telling the truth last week when he said he knew nothing of a 2015 domestic incident (we found out later there were multiple incidents) in which police were called to Courtney Smith’s house? Meyer, on at least two separate occasions in Chicago, dismissed that idea like it was pure crazy-talk.

“I got a text late last night something happened in 2015 and there was nothing; once again, there’s nothing,” he said of McMurphy’s initial report. “I don’t know who creates a story like that.”

Flash forward to Wednesday when Courtney Smith told Stadium’s Kristen Balboni in an on-camera interview that she decided to come forward in 2015 and tell Shelley Meyer because the couple was now separated, but Zach Smith was still abusing her. McMurphy published a text exchange the two had at the time. At one point Shelley Meyer asked, “Do u have a restraining order? He scares me.”

Shelley Meyer is as visible a coach’s wife as any in the country, a frequent visitor to the football building and, as Urban Meyer is the first to acknowledge, a close confidant of her husband’s. The notion that she wouldn’t have shared any of this with Urban seems highly naïve. Meanwhile, a Cleveland.com report Wednesday uncovered nine police reports over the past four-and-half years involving domestic disputes between the couple. Are we really to believe none of those made it to the desk of the most powerful person in Columbus?

Courtney Smith’s own theory is that Urban Meyer did know of these alleged incidents but chose to believe the accounts of his loyal assistant — who presumably tried to discredit his ex-wife. After all, this was the grandson of Meyer’s close mentor, Earle Bruce, who passed away earlier this year. He was practically family.

“I do believe (Meyer) knew and instead he chose to help the abuser and enable the abuser,” Courtney Smith told Stadium.

If that is indeed the case, it would strike a familiar pattern.

Football coaches are famously insular. They spend long hours holed up in windowless offices watching film. They talk to the same 15-20 people every day and shut out everyone on the “outside.” They refer to the members of their football program as a “family,” emphasizing the special bond that they share.

And as a result, they can be unfailingly trusting of those in their inner circle — to a fault. It’s how the gruff Paterno could somehow miss ample warning signs that his longtime former assistant was a pedophile. It’s how Briles and staff could treat allegations of serious crimes against their players as primarily annoying distractions that needed to be stamped out.

And it’s why Meyer may have just torpedoed his career when at any point in the past three years he could have easily put his lowest-paid assistant out to pasture. If Meyer couldn’t grasp that Smith had no business holding a job on a college campus mentoring young men, shame on him.

It seems like every time another one of these scandals breaks we find ourselves asking: When will these guys ever learn?

After Penn State, we wanted to believe football coaches would be extra vigilant when it came to reporting sexual abuse to the proper authorities. But then Baylor happened. After which we thought surely coaches would take the issue of violence against women extremely seriously. Now, of all coaches, Urban Meyer — he of the “Treat Women With Respect” sign on a wall listing his core values — seemingly failed to do just that.

On the heels of Ohio State’s announcement, noted sexual assault survivor advocate Brenda Tracy tweeted: “Coaches, if your house is not in order then I recommend you fix it ASAP. The days of ignoring, hiding, pretending like it’ll be OK, making excuses and sweeping it under the rug are over.”

And she’s right. In 2018, not even a coach as accomplished as Meyer is immune from possible termination if there’s even an appearance of enabling violence against women. However this investigation turns out, it will serve as yet another warning sign to his peers. Maybe, just maybe, they’ll heed one for a change.
Click to expand...

 
Galileo said:
He appears to have lied to the flippin' media.  No coach has ever done that before  :rolleyes:   He didn't lie to cops...or in a court of law...or to his bosses.  For all we know he may not have even lied to the media, although this seems rather unlikely at this juncture.
Click to expand...
I think there's a slight difference between lying to the media about who is going to start at QB or whether your LB has an injury and lying to the media to cover up not doing #### when you knew your assistant coach was beating the hell out of his wife.

 
whoknew said:
I think there's a slight difference between lying to the media about who is going to start at QB or whether your LB has an injury and lying to the media to cover up not doing #### when you knew your assistant coach was beating the hell out of his wife.
Click to expand...
Coaches have lied to the media about more egregious things than your examples, but I get your point and agree there is a difference.  But wasn't this matter already in the hands of police?  Was he really covering something up?   Was he supposed to report something that was already reported?   Was Smith ever charged and convicted of a crime?  Everything I have read says "alleged".  Should we be automatically firing people who are alleged to have done something?  That's a slippery slope.  

The excerpt that GM posted above indicates that Meyer did inform his bosses of the 2009 incident, so that is not in line with a good old boy "cover up"...Of course, an arrest was made in that case, so I suppose he didn't have much choice.   I can only assume that his comments at the recent media day were intended to protect the program and himself.  I am not saying he was right to lie.  Perhaps he would have been better off with a "no comment" approach whether he knew anything or not.   I understand his integrity and judgement are now called into question.  He made his own bed... If he goes down, so be it.

 
Galileo said:
Coaches have lied to the media about more egregious things than your examples, but I get your point and agree there is a difference.  But wasn't this matter already in the hands of police?  Was he really covering something up?   Was he supposed to report something that was already reported?   Was Smith ever charged and convicted of a crime?  Everything I have read says "alleged".  Should we be automatically firing people who are alleged to have done something?  That's a slippery slope.  

The excerpt that GM posted above indicates that Meyer did inform his bosses of the 2009 incident, so that is not in line with a good old boy "cover up"...Of course, an arrest was made in that case, so I suppose he didn't have much choice.   I can only assume that his comments at the recent media day were intended to protect the program and himself.  I am not saying he was right to lie.  Perhaps he would have been better off with a "no comment" approach whether he knew anything or not.   I understand his integrity and judgement are now called into question.  He made his own bed... If he goes down, so be it.
Click to expand...
I think the difference we have here is that there was never a question as to whether Smith did this. Everyone knows he did. There are pictures and texts. So its not some out of thin air allegation. Here's how I see it -

  • In 2009, Meyer found out Smith was beating the #### out of his wife. This wasn't alleged - he knew it happened. At that time, apparently he and his wife decided to work with Smith. It sounds like they were trying to counsel him or maybe get him counseling so that it wouldn't happen again. Domestic violence is a crime and it should be treated as such. Its not just some marital trouble. Having said that, I'm all for second chances and think Urban can be excused for this.
  • In 2015 (at least), Urban learns that Smith is still/again beating the #### out of his wife. Again, this isn't really in dispute. There are pictures. Urban's wife and the other wives don't doubt it at all. Hell, Urban's own wife said she was afraid of the guy. At this time, its not clear what Urban did, but it sure appears like he did nothing. 
  • Last week, he tells the media at BIG media days that he didn't know anything about 2015 until recently. He does this to cover his ### for not doing something when he knew his assistant coach was repeatedly committing crimes.
If I've got anything wrong there, please let me know. But that seems bad. Really bad. 

So I think two disagreements we have is what Urban knew (I think its clear he knew this was going on) and how we should react to domestic violence (its a crime). 

This is obviously hard for me because I went to MI. I can't stand Urban. I'm inherently biased. But I'm trying to put that aside and judge this independently. And its just really bad. Its beyond time to take domestic violence seriously. And Urban had a chance to do so, didn't, and then lied about it to cover his ###. 

Finally - I do agree with you on one thing. If he came out at media days and said something like, "I screwed up. I knew about 2015 and should have fired him back then. But I thought I could help him change. I screwed up. I'm sorry," - this would be different. It wouldn't make what he did in 2015 right, but people can be forgiving. 

But he didn't do that. He lied to cover his ###.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
xulf said:
They had someone on Golic and Wingo this morning saying that is not true since nothing happened on campus and the victim was not a student.  They also brought up that RN's (Shelley) are to give caution to reporting these types of things as it could make the matters worse (not saying that is right or wrong, but what was reported)...and the correspondent brought up that Shelley was not acting as an RN in this situation, but as a friend, which muddies the water.

I admit that I am an OSU homer and have bias and want to give the benefit of the doubt, but if Urban flat out lied, that is a no-go and he should be gone.  If he knew of this and did nothing, while legally he could probably stay, he still needs to go.
Click to expand...
It doesn’t matter who it happens to or where. If it is brought to the attention of an OSU employee, they must report. 

 
Let’s shift the conversation. I’ll act under the premise that he’s gone, who do they grab?  Assuming 2018 is an audition for the interim. I can’t imagine he could possibly keep the job past that, so who do they interview in December?

Schiano?  I doubt it, they would just make him the interim. 

Kiffen?  Possible I suppose, but I’d think they would want someone less abrasive/ fun depending on who you ask. 

PJ Fleck?  Has the shine worn off?

Brohm?

Herman?  I doubt he’d leave Texas.

I don’t see any obvious candidates.  Most of the up and coming names took a job, but I suppose they could have someone pull a Taggert.  Chad Morris would do amazing there, but who knows. 

 
bigmarc27 said:
Let’s shift the conversation. I’ll act under the premise that he’s gone, who do they grab?  Assuming 2018 is an audition for the interim. I can’t imagine he could possibly keep the job past that, so who do they interview in December?

Schiano?  I doubt it, they would just make him the interim. 

Kiffen?  Possible I suppose, but I’d think they would want someone less abrasive/ fun depending on who you ask. 

PJ Fleck?  Has the shine worn off?

Brohm?

Herman?  I doubt he’d leave Texas.

I don’t see any obvious candidates.  Most of the up and coming names took a job, but I suppose they could have someone pull a Taggert.  Chad Morris would do amazing there, but who knows. 
Click to expand...
Dabo?

 
bigmarc27 said:
Let’s shift the conversation. I’ll act under the premise that he’s gone, who do they grab?  Assuming 2018 is an audition for the interim. I can’t imagine he could possibly keep the job past that, so who do they interview in December?

Schiano?  I doubt it, they would just make him the interim. 

Kiffen?  Possible I suppose, but I’d think they would want someone less abrasive/ fun depending on who you ask. 

PJ Fleck?  Has the shine worn off?

Brohm?

Herman?  I doubt he’d leave Texas.

I don’t see any obvious candidates.  Most of the up and coming names took a job, but I suppose they could have someone pull a Taggert.  Chad Morris would do amazing there, but who knows. 
Click to expand...
This talk is way premature - but it is fun.

I'm a big fan of Matt Campbell. Assuming he has another good year, they could go after him. But I hope they don't.

 
Disclaimer - I and the writer of the blog I'm about to quote are super biased. We are Michigan grads. I think its absurd to think that Urban didn't know in 2015. But having said that, I think this blog makes a great point - it was his job to know. 

--

It doesn't matter whether Urban Meyer knew what Zach Smith did to his wife. It didn't matter if Joe Paterno knew. It didn't matter if Lou Anna Simon [Michigan State] knew. All three of these people were or are the superiors of people who can fairly be described as evil, and we are now coming to a society-wide revelation that systems that allow abusers to continue unchecked for years are designed to do so. People in charge of massively failed systems do not get a pass because their system sucks.

---

The only way Urban Meyer did not know about Zach Smith is if his entire program is designed to keep that knowledge away from him. Saying he might not know is no defense. It is worse for Meyer if he ran the kind of program where the head coach did not know serious, damning information about one of his assistant coaches when every one of his coaches' wives knew, when the police knew, when ####### bloggers knew...

 
Tom Servo said:
Primer

It falls under Title IX if the act was perpetrated by OSU employee.

OSU HR policy

Shelley is REQUIRED to report
Click to expand...
I have read most of the Primer and skimmed the rest.  I see nothing in there of relevance to what the Meyers did or didn't do.  It is largely about guidelines for filing complaints under Title IX vs Title VII.  As far as the OSU HR policy, I am not sure of what you are showing me with this.  Perhaps you misunderstood me.  I am not questioning Zach Smith's behavior.  Clearly OSU does not want criminal employees and would have policies against domestic violence.  I am questioning how it is a Title IX violation to not report what Courtney Smith conveyed to them.  It very well could be a violation, I am just looking for some type of validation of that.  I am not so sure that some random tweet by Lori provides much confirmation.   If Zach Smith was abusing an OSU student or other employee, OK, I see how that would have Title IX ramifications.  

 
whoknew said:
Disclaimer - I and the writer of the blog I'm about to quote are super biased. We are Michigan grads. I think its absurd to think that Urban didn't know in 2015. But having said that, I think this blog makes a great point - it was his job to know. 

--

It doesn't matter whether Urban Meyer knew what Zach Smith did to his wife. It didn't matter if Joe Paterno knew. It didn't matter if Lou Anna Simon [Michigan State] knew. All three of these people were or are the superiors of people who can fairly be described as evil, and we are now coming to a society-wide revelation that systems that allow abusers to continue unchecked for years are designed to do so. People in charge of massively failed systems do not get a pass because their system sucks.

---

The only way Urban Meyer did not know about Zach Smith is if his entire program is designed to keep that knowledge away from him. Saying he might not know is no defense. It is worse for Meyer if he ran the kind of program where the head coach did not know serious, damning information about one of his assistant coaches when every one of his coaches' wives knew, when the police knew, when ####### bloggers knew...
Click to expand...
I am an Ohio State fan, and I do not necessarily disagree with what is being said here.  However, where is the line drawn?  So let's say Urban Meyer should be fired.  Fine.  What about Gene Smith, the AD?  Is he not also in charge of the system?  What About Michael Drake, OSU President?  Do they all go down over this too?  

 
Galileo said:
I am an Ohio State fan, and I do not necessarily disagree with what is being said here.  However, where is the line drawn?  So let's say Urban Meyer should be fired.  Fine.  What about Gene Smith, the AD?  Is he not also in charge of the system?  What About Michael Drake, OSU President?  Do they all go down over this too?  
Click to expand...
If they knew too, then yes. 

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

bigbottom
2024 Edition - Please help bigbottom win a Battle of the Bands and support Chance for Hope as a Bonus! Just a $10 donation makes a difference
Replies
26
Views
403
Mr.Pack
Mr.Pack
snellman
Collectively, A thread to celebrate our kids Non-Athletic accomplishments.
2
Replies
62
Views
1K
Rustoleum
Rustoleum
ChiefD
First Time Sending Kid To College Panic Thread
Replies
21
Views
1K
Brunell4MVP
B

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 5 (members: 0, guests: 5)
Top