2020-21 NBA *Playoffs* Thread: Bucks are the champs and you can take that to the bank bromigos (8 Viewers)

[Brunell4MVP]

Being naive. The best 4-5 players in the league control their orgs if they want. 

There is only 1 NBA player that is worth doing this for, and that is LeBron James.

So much of this goes back to the AAU system.  I coached mid level AAU teams for about 20 years.  Just quit a couple of years ago.   But on the top AAU programs, by age11 the best players and their parents are already scheming to get their kids on the same team so they can be dominant.  And so they can stay in the best hotels.  And go to the best cities to play tournaments.  I'm not saying it's the wrong thing to do.  Or that it's new (pre-AAU private High Schools were already doing it at a more limited level).  But now, it starts way, way young.  And the mentality travels with them into the NBA.   They want to build their own teams.  I mean, they did it that way as kids so why won't it work at the NBA level?   Well it will if you have the #1 player and he grabs a couple of other top 20 players.  But if you are the number 4-7 player (ie Harden) and you pair with a couple of good players, well you need the coaching to get you past the #1 player and his buddies.  And guys like harden don't get this IMO.

 

[Capella]

There is only 1 NBA player that is worth doing this for, and that is LeBron James.

Nah. Kawhi has delivered multiple titles. Harden brought a franchise with nothing going for it to the brink twice. Steph is a first-ballot hall of famer. Durant. That’s just incorrect, you are so much better with those guys on your team even if you have to deal with nonsense. 

 

[Desert_Power]

There is only 1 NBA player that is worth doing this for, and that is LeBron James.

So much of this goes back to the AAU system.  I coached mid level AAU teams for about 20 years.  Just quit a couple of years ago.   But on the top AAU programs, by age11 the best players and their parents are already scheming to get their kids on the same team so they can be dominant.  And so they can stay in the best hotels.  And go to the best cities to play tournaments.  I'm not saying it's the wrong thing to do.  Or that it's new (pre-AAU private High Schools were already doing it at a more limited level).  But now, it starts way, way young.  And the mentality travels with them into the NBA.   They want to build their own teams.  I mean, they did it that way as kids so why won't it work at the NBA level?   Well it will if you have the #1 player and he grabs a couple of other top 20 players.  But if you are the number 4-7 player (ie Harden) and you pair with a couple of good players, well you need the coaching to get you past the #1 player and his buddies.  And guys like harden don't get this IMO.

I think the universe of players that are worth it to let them have some say in the roster is a lot broader. Giannis for sure. Even having a say in coaching is to be expected. The stuff posted about Harden, if true, goes a bit far.

There is also giving a player so much control they make toxic moves like trading Paul plus picks for the toxic Westbrook contract or sending a haul for and then super maxing Paul George. It is a fine line and doesn't always work. LeGM certainly made some bad calls in Cleveland too.

 

[SWC]

Nah. Kawhi has delivered multiple titles. Harden brought a franchise with nothing going for it to the brink twice. Steph is a first-ballot hall of famer. Durant. That’s just incorrect, you are so much better with those guys on your team even if you have to deal with nonsense. 

if i was playing pickup ball i would take any of those guys on my team except poopbeard that guy can stick it take that to the bank bromigos 

 

[SWC]

also i am very happy about anteaternintendo sticking around brew city it warms the cold empty cockles of this brohans heart take that to the bank 

 

[Capella]

if i was playing pickup ball i would take any of those guys on my team except poopbeard that guy can stick it take that to the bank bromigos 

Hey he’s an awesome player though. Didn’t get them a title but all their success beats being a lottery team. 

 

[SWC]

Hey he’s an awesome player though. Didn’t get them a title but all their success beats being a lottery team. 

oh yeah he is a good player and frankly he is probably better than i am but i still dont like him take that to the bank brohan 

 

[modogg]

ahh, it is nice having a competent front office. ESPN and the general sports media loves spinning their stories, and it nice when 15 minutes later Morey comes out and cancels all of the nonsense talk. Ben for fatty Harden would be a mistake

 

[Yo Mama]

NBA is investigating Jerry West and the Clippers for some of the “extras” Kawhii is rumored to have received when he joined the team, per Marc Stein. 
 

There were rumors about things he asked the Lakers for that they refused, and supposedly there are questions around the real estate deal he made for his current residence. 
 

Its based on a TMZ report that West has denied, but it’ll be interesting if anything comes out of this. 

 

[offdee]

NBA is investigating Jerry West and the Clippers for some of the “extras” Kawhii is rumored to have received when he joined the team, per Marc Stein. 
 

There were rumors about things he asked the Lakers for that they refused, and supposedly there are questions around the real estate deal he made for his current residence. 
 

Its based on a TMZ report that West has denied, but it’ll be interesting if anything comes out of this. 

He can’t afford a house or what?  What extras are being rumored? 

 

[mr. furley]

fyi - Ian Eagle on the Woj pod was fantastic

 

[strykerpks]

Giannis signs supermax = somewhere around 11 posts

Ben Simmons hits a 3 on a Tuesday in January = 6 pages

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Giannis signs supermax = somewhere around 11 posts

Ben Simmons hits a 3 on a Tuesday in January = 6 pages

You goin somewhere with this?

 

[Long Ball Larry]

He can’t afford a house or what?  What extras are being rumored? 

I’m sure he can, but theoretically, if a team wanted to circumvent the salary cap in order to sweeten a deal, they could use an intermediary to funnel money to the player.

Though what I read made it seem like Wilkes is probably a kook.

 

[strykerpks]

You goin somewhere with this?

Just an observation

 

[Capella]

ahh, it is nice having a competent front office. ESPN and the general sports media loves spinning their stories, and it nice when 15 minutes later Morey comes out and cancels all of the nonsense talk. Ben for fatty Harden would be a mistake

Yes, for Houston. 

 

[Capella]

Giannis signs supermax = somewhere around 11 posts

Ben Simmons hits a 3 on a Tuesday in January = 6 pages

Lol Ben Simmons isn’t hitting any 3s this January. 

 

[wikkidpissah]

I’m sure he can, but theoretically, if a team wanted to circumvent the salary cap in order to sweeten a deal, they could use an intermediary to funnel money to the player.

Though what I read made it seem like Wilkes is probably a kook.

when the Russian guy owned the Nets, he offered Bronnie real estate "partnerships" throughout Brooklyn that would have made him a billionaire several times over if he'd chosen them over the Heat.

 

[Ramfancam]

Nah. Kawhi has delivered multiple titles. 

I think it's generally accepted in Toronto that Kawhi was terrible for the locker room, got insane preferential treatment and basically made the situation difficult for absolutely everyone in the organization. And they won, so no one speaks an ill word, because why would they. 

 

[modogg]

Yes, for Houston. 

Sixers are fine with Ben...  Shake >>> Fatty Harden

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Sixers are fine with Ben...  Shake >>> Fatty Harden

Oh come on!

 

[Capella]

Oh come on!

Some people live in an alternate reality from the truth. 

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Some people live in an alternate reality from the truth. 

I mean Harden is an MVP candidate every year.  His trade value is at an all-time low though looking out of shape and with the diva reports.  I still think it is worth trading Simmons for him.  I would not deplete the whole team though -- while it is still "worth it" from a talent/return standpoint, if the goal is to win a title, if they have zero depth I don't think they would be able to contend (and Harden is 31 and may not even sign an extension, so re-building the depth later isn't a great option).

 

[Yo Mama]

I mean Harden is an MVP candidate every year.  His trade value is at an all-time low though looking out of shape and with the diva reports.  I still think it is worth trading Simmons for him.  I would not deplete the whole team though -- while it is still "worth it" from a talent/return standpoint, if the goal is to win a title, if they have zero depth I don't think they would be able to contend (and Harden is 31 and may not even sign an extension, so re-building the depth later isn't a great option).

Harden has three more years under contract so I don’t think teams should worry too much about the extension aspect. 

 

[Brunell4MVP]

I mean Harden is an MVP candidate every year.  His trade value is at an all-time low though looking out of shape and with the diva reports.  I still think it is worth trading Simmons for him.  I would not deplete the whole team though -- while it is still "worth it" from a talent/return standpoint, if the goal is to win a title, if they have zero depth I don't think they would be able to contend (and Harden is 31 and may not even sign an extension, so re-building the depth later isn't a great option).

Would not touch Harden with a 1000 foot pole.  OK, so consensus is James, Leonard, Giannis, Curry, Durant as guys you do anything to keep.  And they are all guys that have proven they can play with others and play D.  Harden has proven just the opposite.  Sure Harden's numbers are top notch.  What good is that if he can't carry a team where his teammates wish he would get lost.  No way I'd trade Simmons for him.  None.   Harden's D is so bad.  Can't win with a lack of effort at both ends.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Would not touch Harden with a 1000 foot pole.  OK, so consensus is James, Leonard, Giannis, Curry, Durant as guys you do anything to keep.  And they are all guys that have proven they can play with others and play D.  Harden has proven just the opposite.  Sure Harden's numbers are top notch.  What good is that if he can't carry a team where his teammates wish he would get lost.  No way I'd trade Simmons for him.  None.   Harden's D is so bad.  Can't win with a lack of effort at both ends.

Yeah, lots of this above.  Other things people forget:

- Harden has been playing in a system that inflated his stats.  His usage rate is absurd.

- He’s not a guy who elevates the entire team.  I’m not a Chris Paul fan, but that guy was irate (for good reason) because he saw that when Harden didn’t have the ball, he just stood around watching.  How does that help the offense?

- All the ball hogging isn’t fun as a teammate.  Anyone who has played the game knows that it is boring and you eventually lose interest if you never touch the ball.

Anyway, not a fan.  Can’t stand watching him play.  

 

[Capella]

Would not touch Harden with a 1000 foot pole.  OK, so consensus is James, Leonard, Giannis, Curry, Durant as guys you do anything to keep.  And they are all guys that have proven they can play with others and play D.  Harden has proven just the opposite.  Sure Harden's numbers are top notch.  What good is that if he can't carry a team where his teammates wish he would get lost.  No way I'd trade Simmons for him.  None.   Harden's D is so bad.  Can't win with a lack of effort at both ends.

Harden has taken an otherwise extremely mediocre team to two conference finals in a rough conference and probably have had a title if not for the Golden State juggernaut. Yes he has faults but he’s one of the all-time greatest offensive players. You guys are crazy saying you wouldn’t give Simmons up for him.  Simmons isn’t even in his galaxy. 

 

[SWC]

Yes, for Houston. 

Sixers are fine with Ben...  Shake >>> Fatty Harden

this is a sizzling hot take that makes ole bea down at the greasy spoon who runs the griddle jealous because it is so dam sizzlin so sizzle on you crazy philadlephia seventy sizzler fan you keep on keepin on take that to the bank bromigo 

 

[SWC]

listen here i hate poopbeard as much or more than just about anyone that guy is defintely not a brohan but even i would take him over ben simmons i mean hell i think they should have kept jimmy butler over ben simmons take that to the bank bromigos 

 

[Sammy3469]

Harden has taken an otherwise extremely mediocre team to two conference finals in a rough conference and probably have had a title if not for the Golden State juggernaut. Yes he has faults but he’s one of the all-time greatest offensive players. You guys are crazy saying you wouldn’t give Simmons up for him.  Simmons isn’t even in his galaxy. 

I mean the discussion is really 2 years of Harden versus 5 (at least) of Simmons on a better contract.  I think you only do that if you think having Harden gets you to the Finals (where its a coin-flip).  I'm not sure he does that for Philly with their other pieces especially since they'd probably have to give up some draft capital.

 

[Capella]

I mean the discussion is really 2 years of Harden versus 5 (at least) of Simmons on a better contract.  I think you only do that if you think having Harden gets you to the Finals (where its a coin-flip).  I'm not sure he does for Philly with their other pieces.   

5 years of Simmons feels like a threat.

Seems to me that Harden-Joel is a combo that would work well together and if Morey can fill in the gaps, makes them the team or the second team to beat in the East. Simmons isn’t getting them out of the second round, or maybe even to it. 
 

Also, yes, 2 years of Harden (thought it was 3) but Philly is a major market that would have a legit chance of keeping him. 

 

[SWC]

i like having the ball contantly in the hands of a guy that cant shoot a three to save his life in the current nba said no exec or talent evaluator ever take that to the bank bromigos 

 

[SWC]

its neat when a guy is outside the three point arc and you can just ignore him and send a defender somewhere else that really helps out a team take that to the bank brohans 

 

[SWC]

its also great when everyone says well he cant shoot threes but he can go to the rack and get fouled but then you look and see gee whiz he is not even a six hundred percent free throw shooter over his career thats a lot of points that the guy who cant shoot threes also leaves on the court when he is at the charity stripe lets wrap that guy up forever take that to the bank brochachos 

 

[SWC]

i mean cripes just to put a bow on it go over to basketball reference and compare ben simmons to connie hawkins who was widely regarded as about cracking the top ten centers of the 1960s and you will see that they have pretty comparable stats more or less with the big exception being that ben did get about 3 to 4 more assists a game so honestly i do not get the ben simmons love because he has always been to me the 10th best center from the 60s running point in a league where centers are largely irrelevant versus what they once were and a lot of guys are a lot better at the things that ben simmons is supposedly special at take that to the bank brohans 

 

[modogg]

Yeah, lots of this above.  Other things people forget:

- Harden has been playing in a system that inflated his stats.  His usage rate is absurd.

- He’s not a guy who elevates the entire team.  I’m not a Chris Paul fan, but that guy was irate (for good reason) because he saw that when Harden didn’t have the ball, he just stood around watching.  How does that help the offense?

- All the ball hogging isn’t fun as a teammate.  Anyone who has played the game knows that it is boring and you eventually lose interest if you never touch the ball.

Anyway, not a fan.  Can’t stand watching him play.  

i do kind of agree with all of the above. Moving him to a team with other top players like KD or Embiid would certainly disrupt things for a bit. i think if a team trades for him they will need to move multiple pieces because you would kind of need to adjust quite a bit to fit Harden in. 

 

[modogg]

I mean the discussion is really 2 years of Harden versus 5 (at least) of Simmons on a better contract.  I think you only do that if you think having Harden gets you to the Finals (where its a coin-flip).  I'm not sure he does that for Philly with their other pieces especially since they'd probably have to give up some draft capital.

yup. and i think we need to look at the other pieces too. Embiid is 27 (i think) and i don't know how confident we can all be with how he will look in 2-3 years. so if Sixers trade Simmons for Harden there is a significant chance the Sixers will look like Charlotte or the Knicks in 2-3 years for like a 3-4 year span

 

[Fantasy_Freak]

oh yeah he is a good player and frankly he is probably better than i am but i still dont like him take that to the bank brohan 

He's no Mokeski or Breuer!

 

[Sammy3469]

yup. and i think we need to look at the other pieces too. Embiid is 27 (i think) and i don't know how confident we can all be with how he will look in 2-3 years. so if Sixers trade Simmons for Harden there is a significant chance the Sixers will look like Charlotte or the Knicks in 2-3 years for like a 3-4 year span

I mean that analysis says you should do the trade then since your window with Embiid (I think he'll be 26 this season) is so narrow anyway.  I guess the bigger question is what's the state of the Morey-Harden relationship.    

 

[thecatch]

yup. and i think we need to look at the other pieces too. Embiid is 27 (i think) and i don't know how confident we can all be with how he will look in 2-3 years. so if Sixers trade Simmons for Harden there is a significant chance the Sixers will look like Charlotte or the Knicks in 2-3 years for like a 3-4 year span

Isn't the whole point for you Process-folks to do anything for a shot at winning a title, rather than just being OK for an extended period of time?  I don't think Harden would win the Sixers the title, necessarily, but he'd get them a lot closer than Simmons would in the next 1-2 years.  And a Simmons/Embiid team 4 years from now is probably one that has a high floor (in the East) but a low ceiling, which seems to be the kind of thing Philly has been hoping to avoid.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Ben Simmons attempted a 3!

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Interesting stuff with Simmons, this might be the turning point

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Please continue to discuss.  TIA

 

[Capella]

Ben Simmons attempted a 3!

How’d it go 

 

[Encyclopedia Brown]

Patrick Williams looks legit. His defense is already NBA ready. 

 

[modogg]

Isn't the whole point for you Process-folks to do anything for a shot at winning a title, rather than just being OK for an extended period of time?  I don't think Harden would win the Sixers the title, necessarily, but he'd get them a lot closer than Simmons would in the next 1-2 years.  And a Simmons/Embiid team 4 years from now is probably one that has a high floor (in the East) but a low ceiling, which seems to be the kind of thing Philly has been hoping to avoid.

maybe. i think with Morey in the front office, and a new head coach, with some high quality assistant coaches, will tell us the answer. Last year was just a nightmare with Elton putting the absolutely wrong pieces in place to support Joel and Ben. Morey did a nice job fixing the team to better support the 2, so i do think this year will be a telling one. if there isn't any indication of progress from Ben by the 2nd half of the season, it would make sense that it is possible they won't be championship bound.

Just good to remind everyone that 2 seasons ago the 6ers were 4 bounces away from a likely finals appearance against a beat-up Warriors team. Some credit goes to Butler for sure, but there were multiple indications in those games that this team can be dominant. 

Biggest thing with both Joel and Ben is that their time as young, talented potential superstars is up. This year is the year you would expect to see some addl. signs of that, if not might never happen. Will be interesting to see if Doc  and Cassel and the rest of the asst. coaches can get both to the next level. 

 

[modogg]

Ben Simmons attempted a 3!

Danny Green finally coming through to show all of us the answer to Ben!

 

[modogg]

this is just insane:

Liberty Ballers  @Liberty_Ballers

The Sixers hold on to win their first away game in an NBA arena for the first time in 288 days (yes, that’s fact checked),

the splits between home and away games was just nuts. Really interested to see if they can fix it, and once they do for them to talk about such a huge discrepancy between playing home and away from last year

 

[Capella]

maybe. i think with Morey in the front office, and a new head coach, with some high quality assistant coaches, will tell us the answer. Last year was just a nightmare with Elton putting the absolutely wrong pieces in place to support Joel and Ben. Morey did a nice job fixing the team to better support the 2, so i do think this year will be a telling one. if there isn't any indication of progress from Ben by the 2nd half of the season, it would make sense that it is possible they won't be championship bound.

Just good to remind everyone that 2 seasons ago the 6ers were 4 bounces away from a likely finals appearance against a beat-up Warriors team. Some credit goes to Butler for sure, but there were multiple indications in those games that this team can be dominant.. 

Yea the indications were Jimmy Butler. He’s going to the Finals in Miami now. 

 

[Jayrod]

As a Celtics fan, I'm super glad that Harden didn't go to the Sixers for Simmons.

Simmons is such a hole on offense he is easy to scheme around defensively.  Harden is one of the most difficult scorers to control in the entire NBA (really in the history of the NBA).

Any argument to the contrary is laughable and reveals a serious lack of basketball understanding.