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2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft-Zow wins, Judges still suck (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
otb_lifer
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Like I said, Thompson was the guy we also had in mind with Melo. You getting Thompson right before us, created a 15 point difference which could be the difference between us in the final standings.
If the commercials or half time show were the most memorable thing about it then it should be dinged.
Big plays, memorable plays, outcome in question down to the end, excitement. Did it have all those and become a legacy maker? Blow outs shouldn't get much run. Boring shouldn't get much consideration.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Here are your super official NBA-TEAMS Category Rankings
My objective criteria included wins, playoff win%, HOFers, avg margin of victory, net rating and online rankings. Comparing overall team success across eras was difficult, so I leaned heavily on research articles and online rankings I could find.
The best teams not selected would include the 90-91 Bulls and the 13-14 Spurs. Without actually plugging them in, I'm sure they both would have finished at least above the bottom tier.
From least to best:
Tier 6 - Participation Trophies
#16 (1 pt) - 89/90 Detroit Pistons - I love the Bad Boys, but similar to Joe Dumars in the Guards category, this team just doesn't belong anywhere near a top 16 of all time ranking. They had the 2nd fewest wins on the list, 3rd worst Net Rating and weren't even on any of the online rankings I used (two top 25 and one top 20). They won with ugly basketball and were not a dominant squad even in this season, much less of all time.
#15 (2 pts) - 69/70 NY Knicks - Another team I love but really doesn't belong here either. They at least cracked the bottom of the top 25 lists, but had the worst playoff win % (had 2 of their 3 series go to 7 games) and had only one more regular season win than the 89/90 Pistons. I am a huge fan of this team and Frazier and Reed, but when it comes to all time teams, they aren't even in the top 20.
Tier 5 - All-Stars - Really Good, but with flaws
#14 (3 pts) - 88/89 Detroit Pistons - Now this team at least belongs on this list. They cracked the top 25 lists and won 63 games and only lost 2 playoff games. However, their net rating was the 2nd lowest and, again, they won in ugly fashion. I like a good hard-nosed team and this is as tough as they get. Thomas, Laimbeer, Dumars and Mahorn were the core of the team. Rodman still came off the bench and they had a mid-season trade of Dantley for Aguirre, but this team was finally able to get over the hump of the Celtics, handled the Bulls and swept the Lakers in the Finals. Had they clicked a little earlier in the season, they likely would have been higher on the list.
#13 (4 pts) - 00/01 LA Lakers - The peak Shaq/Kobe team coasted a bit during the regular season, but blew through the playoffs, losing only one game and was the best team of their decade. All of the rankings had them in the 15-17 range and it was likely some combination of missed games, lazy Shaq and immature Kobe that keep them this low. When they were at full strength and wanted to turn it on, they were easily the best team in the league, but they weren't consistent and as a result had the lowest win total and net rating on the list.
#12 (5 pts) - 64/65 Boston Celtics - This team boasted 5 hall of famers and one of the greatest coaches of all time. The 60's teams had much lower O and D ratings, and this team was the lowest in both categories (which would lend itself to saying they had the best defense but worst offense...which likely isn't perfectly accurate, but probably close). Anchored by 30 year old Bill Russell, this was the 2nd to last squad in the midst of an 8-peat. They had to defeat Wilt and the 76ers in 7 games, but then won the Championship over Jerry West in 5 games, which gave them a low playoff winning %. Also, no rankings lists had them inside the top 12, so I really didn't feel like I could justify moving them up any higher. I believe the lack of competition in their era may have contributed to that (but that didn't seem to matter much to the team just 2 years later).
Tier 4 - 3rd Team All-NBA - parts of dynasties (but not the peak)
#11 (6 pts) - 91/92 Chicago Bulls - Won 67 games with a net rating of 10.0, but had to battle through the playoffs, losing 7 games in the last 3 series. They did become only the 4th franchise to win back to back titles here and were a dominant force. All of the online rankings I used had them at either #11 or #12. This was the best team of the first three peat with all cylinders firing and Jordan becoming the universal icon that would sweep the world the following summer in Barcelona. If it wasn't for the greatness of the next three peat, this team may have ranked higher...likely suffers from some Bulls fatigue in rankings (similar to MJ's MVP trophies).
#10 (7 pts) - 84/85 LA Lakers - Not quite the peak of showtime, but a close second. This team had your standard cast of Hall of Famers with Magic, Kareem (at 37) and Worthy and included Bob McAdoo averaging 10.5 ppg off the bench. Their regular season was good, but not great. However, they did win an epic 6 game finals against a peak Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics squad by winning game 6 in Boston. Magic was on a mission to avenge the loss of the season before and solidified what was the defining rivalry of the NBA in the 80's and probably one of the greatest rivalries in all of sports.
Tier 3 - 2nd Team All-NBA - great teams, but not quite the best of their decade
#9 (8 pts) - 82/83 Philadelphia 76ers - "Fo, Fo, Fo"....well, almost. Had Malone's prediction of 3 sweeps come to fruition, it would have been the single greatest playoff run in NBA history. Due to a ECF loss to the Bucks, they must share that designation with 2 other teams on this list. But this team was great, featuring a prime Moses Malone (MVP that year), a still effective Dr J, HOF PG Mo Cheeks in his prime and a couple of key role players, including all-star Andrew Toney (19.5 ppg) and HOF Bobby Jones off the bench. They had won 65 regular season games with a net rating of 7.4. One of my personally favorite NBA teams of all-time and an easy inclusion in the top 10.
#8 (9 pts) - 86/87 LA Lakers - Just two spots higher than the '85 squad, this is mostly considered the greatest team of the Showtime era Lakers. They also had to defeat the Celtics in the Finals, which was highlighted by Magic's running baby hook game winner in game 4. They won 65 games that year with a net rating of 9.1 and only lost 3 games total in the playoffs. One ranking had them as high as #4 all time. They were truly a great squad and the defining team of the Lakers in the 80's and put them over the top of the Celtics in their straight up matchups of NBA Finals.
#7 (10 pts) - 70/71 Milwaukee Bucks - Before Showtime era Kareem, there was Lew Alcindor. He won league MVP in 1971, his second year in the league, and was the most dominant force in the NBA for the entire decade. But it was his first run with Oscar Robertson that slightly outranks his run with the Lakers. The Bucks won 66 games that year with a net rating of 10.8 with a lot of solid contributions from the role players as well, most notably from Bob Dandridge. The team rallied around their leader, the Big O, to get him his lone championship and the lone Bucks championship (so far). This team was ranked consistently at either #7 or #8 in all of the lists I used.
#6 (11 pts) - 96/97 Chicago Bulls - 69 wins and a net rating of 12.0 both rank second of the teams in this draft, only behind another very similar team. Again, this squad likely suffers a bit from Bulls fatigue. Their online rankings ranged from #4 all the way down to #12. They did lose 4 playoff games, including 2 to the Jazz in the Finals. Sandwiched in between one of the greatest of all time and the "Last Dance" was the '97 Champs and they were very, very good.
Tier 2 - 1st Team All-NBA - best teams of their respective decades
#5 (12 pts) - 66/67 Philadelphia 76ers - It takes a great team to end a dynasty and this squad finally ended the Celtics run of 8 straight championships by defeating them in 5 games in the ECF and going on to win the championship over Rick Barry and the SF Warriors in 6 games. They won what was then a record of 68 games. Wilt Chamberlain was finally able to get his first ring after another MVP season where he averaged 24/24/8 per game. However, this team was hardly a one man band and featured 3 other HOFers and 6 players averaged over 12ppg including Hal Greer and a 23 year old Kangaroo Kid (Billy Cunningham). They didn't quite face the same competition as the teams above them in this list, but it may not have mattered as they were a truly dominant squad through the entire season and the playoffs.
#4 (13 pts) - 71/72 LA Lakers - Before Shaq/Kobe, before Magic/Kareem, there was the 1971-72 Lakers team. Led by the Logo, Jerry West, and including some aging but still great players in Wilt and Baylor, they won a then record 69 games with an average margin of 12.3 pts. 6 players averaged over 11 ppg, including another Hall of Famer, Gail Goodrich who averaged 25.9 ppg as West's backcourt running mate. West had lost a lot of NBA Finals before finally defeating a good Knicks squad in 5 games for his first and only ring and getting Wilt his 2nd and final one. They dominated like no one had before them and had to defeat the two previous champions in the playoffs (both teams on this list) to get there.
#3 (14 pts) - 86/86 Boston Celtics - Larry Legend at his peak was a dominant force and he was the league MVP and Finals MVP this season while leading the Celtics in points, rebounds, assists and steals per game. On top of that, was a solid starting 5 with McHale at his peak, Parish, DJ & Danny Ainge all playing great basketball and averaging in double figures and Bill Walton off the bench. They defeated a very good Rockets team in 6 games in the Finals with their twin towers of Hakeem and Sampson who had spoiled another Lakers/Celtics matchup. Their statistics were dominant, their record was dominant and they are universally considered a top 5 team of all time across every list I saw, usually at #3 or #4.
Tier 1 - MVPs - the debate over the GOATs was a tough one (I seriously flip flopped a few times here)...
#2 (15 pts) - 16/17 Golden State Warriors - This is recent enough not to have to rehash story lines. I honestly didn't let the lameness of Durant's move or my hatred of Draymond influence this ranking. Their run through the playoffs at 16-1 is the greatest of all time. They boast 3 likely HOFers and maybe a 4th. Curry is the greatest shooter of all time (IMO). Durant is one of the greatest scorers of all time, Klay is a great 2-way guard and Draymond is a great defender. They had almost no flaws, but since it was their first run with Durant, it took a couple of months to fire on all cylinders, otherwise they would likely would have had the regular season record and stats to take the #1 spot. As is, they are just slightly behind the GOAT.
#1 (16 pts) - 95/96 Chicago Bulls - MJ, Pippen and Rodman on a mission to destroy the NBA. It was the most dominant season wire to wire of all time. Only slight hiccup is 3 losses in the playoffs but their regular season of 72 wins and 13.4 net rating are both the top of the list. They were #1 in 2 out of the 3 online lists I used and they controlled every aspect of nearly every game they played for the entire season with great offense, defense and rebounding (were #1 in both ORtg & DRtg). This team is truly the GOAT.
My objective criteria included wins, playoff win%, HOFers, avg margin of victory, net rating and online rankings. Comparing overall team success across eras was difficult, so I leaned heavily on research articles and online rankings I could find.
The best teams not selected would include the 90-91 Bulls and the 13-14 Spurs. Without actually plugging them in, I'm sure they both would have finished at least above the bottom tier.
From least to best:
Tier 6 - Participation Trophies
#16 (1 pt) - 89/90 Detroit Pistons - I love the Bad Boys, but similar to Joe Dumars in the Guards category, this team just doesn't belong anywhere near a top 16 of all time ranking. They had the 2nd fewest wins on the list, 3rd worst Net Rating and weren't even on any of the online rankings I used (two top 25 and one top 20). They won with ugly basketball and were not a dominant squad even in this season, much less of all time.
#15 (2 pts) - 69/70 NY Knicks - Another team I love but really doesn't belong here either. They at least cracked the bottom of the top 25 lists, but had the worst playoff win % (had 2 of their 3 series go to 7 games) and had only one more regular season win than the 89/90 Pistons. I am a huge fan of this team and Frazier and Reed, but when it comes to all time teams, they aren't even in the top 20.
Tier 5 - All-Stars - Really Good, but with flaws
#14 (3 pts) - 88/89 Detroit Pistons - Now this team at least belongs on this list. They cracked the top 25 lists and won 63 games and only lost 2 playoff games. However, their net rating was the 2nd lowest and, again, they won in ugly fashion. I like a good hard-nosed team and this is as tough as they get. Thomas, Laimbeer, Dumars and Mahorn were the core of the team. Rodman still came off the bench and they had a mid-season trade of Dantley for Aguirre, but this team was finally able to get over the hump of the Celtics, handled the Bulls and swept the Lakers in the Finals. Had they clicked a little earlier in the season, they likely would have been higher on the list.
#13 (4 pts) - 00/01 LA Lakers - The peak Shaq/Kobe team coasted a bit during the regular season, but blew through the playoffs, losing only one game and was the best team of their decade. All of the rankings had them in the 15-17 range and it was likely some combination of missed games, lazy Shaq and immature Kobe that keep them this low. When they were at full strength and wanted to turn it on, they were easily the best team in the league, but they weren't consistent and as a result had the lowest win total and net rating on the list.
#12 (5 pts) - 64/65 Boston Celtics - This team boasted 5 hall of famers and one of the greatest coaches of all time. The 60's teams had much lower O and D ratings, and this team was the lowest in both categories (which would lend itself to saying they had the best defense but worst offense...which likely isn't perfectly accurate, but probably close). Anchored by 30 year old Bill Russell, this was the 2nd to last squad in the midst of an 8-peat. They had to defeat Wilt and the 76ers in 7 games, but then won the Championship over Jerry West in 5 games, which gave them a low playoff winning %. Also, no rankings lists had them inside the top 12, so I really didn't feel like I could justify moving them up any higher. I believe the lack of competition in their era may have contributed to that (but that didn't seem to matter much to the team just 2 years later).
Tier 4 - 3rd Team All-NBA - parts of dynasties (but not the peak)
#11 (6 pts) - 91/92 Chicago Bulls - Won 67 games with a net rating of 10.0, but had to battle through the playoffs, losing 7 games in the last 3 series. They did become only the 4th franchise to win back to back titles here and were a dominant force. All of the online rankings I used had them at either #11 or #12. This was the best team of the first three peat with all cylinders firing and Jordan becoming the universal icon that would sweep the world the following summer in Barcelona. If it wasn't for the greatness of the next three peat, this team may have ranked higher...likely suffers from some Bulls fatigue in rankings (similar to MJ's MVP trophies).
#10 (7 pts) - 84/85 LA Lakers - Not quite the peak of showtime, but a close second. This team had your standard cast of Hall of Famers with Magic, Kareem (at 37) and Worthy and included Bob McAdoo averaging 10.5 ppg off the bench. Their regular season was good, but not great. However, they did win an epic 6 game finals against a peak Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics squad by winning game 6 in Boston. Magic was on a mission to avenge the loss of the season before and solidified what was the defining rivalry of the NBA in the 80's and probably one of the greatest rivalries in all of sports.
Tier 3 - 2nd Team All-NBA - great teams, but not quite the best of their decade
#9 (8 pts) - 82/83 Philadelphia 76ers - "Fo, Fo, Fo"....well, almost. Had Malone's prediction of 3 sweeps come to fruition, it would have been the single greatest playoff run in NBA history. Due to a ECF loss to the Bucks, they must share that designation with 2 other teams on this list. But this team was great, featuring a prime Moses Malone (MVP that year), a still effective Dr J, HOF PG Mo Cheeks in his prime and a couple of key role players, including all-star Andrew Toney (19.5 ppg) and HOF Bobby Jones off the bench. They had won 65 regular season games with a net rating of 7.4. One of my personally favorite NBA teams of all-time and an easy inclusion in the top 10.
#8 (9 pts) - 86/87 LA Lakers - Just two spots higher than the '85 squad, this is mostly considered the greatest team of the Showtime era Lakers. They also had to defeat the Celtics in the Finals, which was highlighted by Magic's running baby hook game winner in game 4. They won 65 games that year with a net rating of 9.1 and only lost 3 games total in the playoffs. One ranking had them as high as #4 all time. They were truly a great squad and the defining team of the Lakers in the 80's and put them over the top of the Celtics in their straight up matchups of NBA Finals.
#7 (10 pts) - 70/71 Milwaukee Bucks - Before Showtime era Kareem, there was Lew Alcindor. He won league MVP in 1971, his second year in the league, and was the most dominant force in the NBA for the entire decade. But it was his first run with Oscar Robertson that slightly outranks his run with the Lakers. The Bucks won 66 games that year with a net rating of 10.8 with a lot of solid contributions from the role players as well, most notably from Bob Dandridge. The team rallied around their leader, the Big O, to get him his lone championship and the lone Bucks championship (so far). This team was ranked consistently at either #7 or #8 in all of the lists I used.
#6 (11 pts) - 96/97 Chicago Bulls - 69 wins and a net rating of 12.0 both rank second of the teams in this draft, only behind another very similar team. Again, this squad likely suffers a bit from Bulls fatigue. Their online rankings ranged from #4 all the way down to #12. They did lose 4 playoff games, including 2 to the Jazz in the Finals. Sandwiched in between one of the greatest of all time and the "Last Dance" was the '97 Champs and they were very, very good.
Tier 2 - 1st Team All-NBA - best teams of their respective decades
#5 (12 pts) - 66/67 Philadelphia 76ers - It takes a great team to end a dynasty and this squad finally ended the Celtics run of 8 straight championships by defeating them in 5 games in the ECF and going on to win the championship over Rick Barry and the SF Warriors in 6 games. They won what was then a record of 68 games. Wilt Chamberlain was finally able to get his first ring after another MVP season where he averaged 24/24/8 per game. However, this team was hardly a one man band and featured 3 other HOFers and 6 players averaged over 12ppg including Hal Greer and a 23 year old Kangaroo Kid (Billy Cunningham). They didn't quite face the same competition as the teams above them in this list, but it may not have mattered as they were a truly dominant squad through the entire season and the playoffs.
#4 (13 pts) - 71/72 LA Lakers - Before Shaq/Kobe, before Magic/Kareem, there was the 1971-72 Lakers team. Led by the Logo, Jerry West, and including some aging but still great players in Wilt and Baylor, they won a then record 69 games with an average margin of 12.3 pts. 6 players averaged over 11 ppg, including another Hall of Famer, Gail Goodrich who averaged 25.9 ppg as West's backcourt running mate. West had lost a lot of NBA Finals before finally defeating a good Knicks squad in 5 games for his first and only ring and getting Wilt his 2nd and final one. They dominated like no one had before them and had to defeat the two previous champions in the playoffs (both teams on this list) to get there.
#3 (14 pts) - 86/86 Boston Celtics - Larry Legend at his peak was a dominant force and he was the league MVP and Finals MVP this season while leading the Celtics in points, rebounds, assists and steals per game. On top of that, was a solid starting 5 with McHale at his peak, Parish, DJ & Danny Ainge all playing great basketball and averaging in double figures and Bill Walton off the bench. They defeated a very good Rockets team in 6 games in the Finals with their twin towers of Hakeem and Sampson who had spoiled another Lakers/Celtics matchup. Their statistics were dominant, their record was dominant and they are universally considered a top 5 team of all time across every list I saw, usually at #3 or #4.
Tier 1 - MVPs - the debate over the GOATs was a tough one (I seriously flip flopped a few times here)...
#2 (15 pts) - 16/17 Golden State Warriors - This is recent enough not to have to rehash story lines. I honestly didn't let the lameness of Durant's move or my hatred of Draymond influence this ranking. Their run through the playoffs at 16-1 is the greatest of all time. They boast 3 likely HOFers and maybe a 4th. Curry is the greatest shooter of all time (IMO). Durant is one of the greatest scorers of all time, Klay is a great 2-way guard and Draymond is a great defender. They had almost no flaws, but since it was their first run with Durant, it took a couple of months to fire on all cylinders, otherwise they would likely would have had the regular season record and stats to take the #1 spot. As is, they are just slightly behind the GOAT.
#1 (16 pts) - 95/96 Chicago Bulls - MJ, Pippen and Rodman on a mission to destroy the NBA. It was the most dominant season wire to wire of all time. Only slight hiccup is 3 losses in the playoffs but their regular season of 72 wins and 13.4 net rating are both the top of the list. They were #1 in 2 out of the 3 online lists I used and they controlled every aspect of nearly every game they played for the entire season with great offense, defense and rebounding (were #1 in both ORtg & DRtg). This team is truly the GOAT.
Zegras11
Footballguy
Standings after Jayrod ranked greatest NBA Teams
40 CATS have been judged
20 CATS left
--STANDINGS--GOLD--SILVER--BRONZE--TOTAL
1 --Gally--386--3--1--3=7
2 --Ilov80s--384--3--4--1=8
3 --tuffnutt--370--4--1--5=10 (gold)
4 --DougB--368--5--2--2=9 (bronze)
5 --Zow--364--3--3--5=11 (silver)
6 --AAABatteries--363--3--2--4=9
7 --Getzlaf15--353--1--5--3=9
8 --otb_lifer--344--0--2--2=4
9 --joffer--339--3--3--1=7
10 -jwb--329--2--4--2=8
11 -Long Ball Larry--328--2--2--3=7
12 -timschochet--322--2--2--3=7
13 -wikkidpissah--315--2--1--4=7
14 -Jagov--304--2--5--0=7
15 -higgins--294--1--1--2=4
16 -Kal El--276--4--2--0=6
40 CATS have been judged
20 CATS left
--STANDINGS--GOLD--SILVER--BRONZE--TOTAL
1 --Gally--386--3--1--3=7
2 --Ilov80s--384--3--4--1=8
3 --tuffnutt--370--4--1--5=10 (gold)
4 --DougB--368--5--2--2=9 (bronze)
5 --Zow--364--3--3--5=11 (silver)
6 --AAABatteries--363--3--2--4=9
7 --Getzlaf15--353--1--5--3=9
8 --otb_lifer--344--0--2--2=4
9 --joffer--339--3--3--1=7
10 -jwb--329--2--4--2=8
11 -Long Ball Larry--328--2--2--3=7
12 -timschochet--322--2--2--3=7
13 -wikkidpissah--315--2--1--4=7
14 -Jagov--304--2--5--0=7
15 -higgins--294--1--1--2=4
16 -Kal El--276--4--2--0=6
Zegras11
Footballguy
otb_lifer
Footballguy
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
otb_lifer
Footballguy
That, and he took Carmelo instead of Thompson
sheeeesh ... that's 2 pts ('Melo/Sancho) that easily coulda been at least 20.
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Actually I forced that issue. I picked before him and sniped Thompson that round.......not that he couldn't have taken him a few rounds earlier. HahahThat, and he took Carmelo instead of Thompson
Zegras11
Footballguy
I actually thought about punting and taking Quick at the end. He is a great big game goalie but day to day regular season has lapses. When a big save in a big moment comes up though he was outstanding.
ETA: I do have a Hrudey jersey hanging in the closet though. First jersey I ever got. Also have a signed Quick jersey.
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Zegras11
Footballguy
Sentimental pick. Although in a big game I would much rather have Quick over Vachon in net.
Zegras11
Footballguy
I'm sitting 3 rows behind Quick on this Bobby Ryan spin-o-rama
In the very last frame, I'm the guy in the white Ducks jersey. It's like a blip. LOL
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Meh. Regular season. I much prefer when I was in the arena for the game 7 massacre at the pond in 2014 playoffs on the way to a second Cup.
Game 7 Massacre at Staples South
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Jagov
Footballguy
After a quick glance at Miller's wiki ... Somewhere in the 12 to 14 range I think. Would be hard for her to pass Shushunova.btw, @Jagov ... Shannon Miller was a yuuuge omission here - where would she have ranked?
i wrestled with her and Bogie - think Miller would've been the better call
Zegras11
Footballguy
I much prefer Teemu getting handed the Cup and skating it right towards us.
June 6th was 13th Anniversary of first Cup won in CA. Kids got a big kick out of this last week.
Teemu Selanne
liked your reply
section 220, watching @TeemuSel8nne pick up the cup and skate it right towards us. (when asked what we were doing when the Ducks won SC)
Also to add..... It was so much fun before the Kings won a cup and the fans at Staples would go into their usual "Ducks Suck" chant and I was able to replace it with "Stanley Cup." Nothing better than seeing a Kings fan not able to reply.
I was in the arena for 2014 Cup raising by the Kings. It is a great experience to see in person.
I would have been there in 2012 too but the wife booked a cancun trip in January that she wouldn't let us out of when it turned out we would be in Mexico for game 6. I was at games 3 and 4 and was hoping they would sweep so I could see it live.
Yes, it is great to have 2 Cups over the 1 of the quacks....hahahha
Zegras11
Footballguy
Doing it first, in year 18, when the Kings year #45 with squat can never be topped. That had to really suck for you. We don't care that the Kings finally won one, or ten.
Waiting 45 years just made it sweeter. There is something to be said for enduring heart break for many years to build up the sheer enjoyment of finally getting to the pinnacle. Without heartbreak, trials and tribulations you may not fully appreciate the accomplishment, hard work and relief of finally getting there.
PS - I am also a Vikings fan so you cannot talk me out of this take that waiting for the title will make it better....hahhaha
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I'm not 100% committed to this, but I will start working something up. My biggest hesitation is that I have a little bit of knowledge and I think that my pick should be highly rated, so I don't want to be too biased. It is also difficult since there hasn't been a consistent organization throughout history.
But I will start some criteria and see what I can do.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
80s, what were expecting for Gaines?
Zow
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I don’t know, it was round 57. Here’s my write up when I took him:
From 78 to 84 he set 10 world records
Considered the favorite to win 4 golds at the 1980 Olympics before the US boycotted
Crushed by missed chance, he went into semi-retirement only to come back for 84 to win 3 Gold Medals.
After suffering Gullian-Barre syndrome and going paralyzed, he not only made a full recovery but at 35 became the oldest swimmer to qualify for the Olympic trials. He chose not compete at the trials and instead continue on in his now famous role as lead commentator for US Olympic swimming.
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I might also add that if you had no horse in the race did the game keep your attention or surpass what was expected going into the game.
So out of the 20 categories remaining I have 10 of my first 20 picks yet to be judged and 7 out of my first 10 picks still to be judged.
Hopefully that bodes well for some high scoring to fend off @Ilov80s
Mister CIA
Footballguy
We've got about three or four Super Elite Tiers waiting to be scored which might not bode well, but I think we grabbed some killer deals, late.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
That's some bragging going on right there. Pegging all remaining 1st places... hahaa
Still a long way to go. I have 2 that I would put as fairly for sure golds but I have a few that will be heavily dependent upon which way the judge wants to go with the category. They could be great or could fizzle.
Its been exciting so far. Hopefully I don't fade down the stretch like a jockey to remain nameless....hahha
Mister CIA
Footballguy
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Category 2 - Greatest Baseball Player
Guys - wait a second, is there not a solitary woman in this draft? anyway - I’m not much of a baseball fan anymore. I haven’t cared for the way owners ruined the game after A. Bartlett Giamatti died, and they completely lost me after shutting down the season in 1994. When I left Detroit 20+ years ago Tiger Stadium was still standing and Cal Ripken, Jr. had (just) ended his playing streak.
I watched a lot of the postseason last year for the first time in 5 years. This exercise was really fun but I frankly had some big holes to fill when it came to understanding advanced stats developed in the last two decades. Before I even started thinking about rankings I spent hours immersed in B-R, Fan Graphs, and SABR.
Baseball was my first love. I destroyed various external parts of our home throwing baseballs and tennis balls against objects. The fireplace foundation, brick planter next to the entryway, an entire wall of our 6-car garage - 15’ to the rafters, I would put all the cars in the driveway to hit balls off a tee for months during brutal Michigan winters - and more windows than you can imagine. I got whupped with a weeping willow switch often. The worst part was going out in the yard to break one off the tree branch because you’ve just been told you’re getting a beating.
While it was not the only thing I relied upon, five advanced statistics (+ two for pitchers) emerged as the foundation of my newfound understanding of the game of my youth.
Wins Above Replacement (WAR)**
Jaffe Wins Above Replacement Score (JAWS)
weighted on-base average (wOBA)
weighted runs created plus (wRC+)
adjusted OPS (OPS+)
adjusted ERA (ERA+)
fielding independent pitching (FIP)
**used both bWAR & fWAR, equal weighting.
As with 4 of the 5 other categories I have judged, the system was just a rough cut. Further refinement relied on a multitude of rankings and my own personal conclusions which are more qualitative in nature. In the end these rankings are nothing more than one person’s subjective opinion.
Tier 5
Franchise favorite, best player locally
16. (1 point) LF Pete Rose
RotY, MVP, WS MVP, 2 GG, 3 batting titles, 24 seasons, 17 ASG, 2B(4)-LF(4)-RF(4)-3B(4)-1B(8), ranks 1st in G, AB, H, singles, 2nd 2B, 6th RS. Batted .300 15x, 44-game hitting streak (NL record), 6 pennants 3 WSC (.321/.388/.440 in 8 postseasons, all higher than regular season.) Led the league in hits 7x, 2B 5x, RS 4x, OBP 2x.
79.7 / 80.5 WAR
62.3 JAWS
.354 wOBA
121 wRC+
118 OPS+
Baseball's all-time hits leader with 4,256 over the course of his 24-year big league career, Pete Rose won three batting titles and led the league in hits seven different times while earning the nickname "Charlie Hustle" for his all-out style of play.
Stayed healthy and stuck around for a long time. Serviceable defensively, excellent lead off hitter, intense leader. He was an inspiration for literally millions of mediocre kids who saw themselves in him. “I may not be the most talented, but I can always hustle, I can always outwork the other kids with more talent” was the mantra of many youth in the 60s & 70s.
Compiled his way into the standard stat record books but last in this cohort group in every advanced stat except for WAR. Great team player, willing switched positions several times to help his team field the best lineup.
Signature play: 1970 All Star Game, scores game winning run by barreling through Ray Fosse in the 12th inning
interview with Chris Russo
Good clip, he talks about what the ASG meant to National Leaguers (they ALWAYS won when I was a kid.)
FINAL THOUGHTS - Was this a homer pick by a Ohioan? I mean he was definitely getting drafted but he is a polarizing figure. Was kind of shocked he came off relatively early. In the end my placement was based on advanced stats plus nobody ever thought he was the best player in baseball (or his team) at any time in his career. The lifetime ban wasn’t a factor, I simply don’t think he is better than anyone else drafted for this category.
15. (2 points) 1B Rod Carew
MVP, RotY, 7x batting champ, 19 seasons, 18 ASG, 2B(9)-1B(10, led league in OBP 4x, H 3x, 3B 2x, RS & OPS x1. Lifetime .328, 3K hits. 4 postseason (.220 in 50 AB), 0 pennants & WSC.
81.3 / 72.3 WAR
81.0 JAWS
.369 wOBA
132 wRC+
OPS+ 131
With a .328/.393/.429 career line and an impressive seven batting titles to his credit, Rod Carew was arguably the best contact hitter of the 1970s. He made the All-Star team each of the first 18 seasons of his career.
Phenomenal contact hitter. Not much power and below average defensively but man was he a tough out. 1971-78 peak .344/.407/.457 while averaging 198 hits. Something of a liability in the field, always made a lot of errors. In his MVP season of 1977, he was batting .403 on July 10 when he landed on the cover of Time and Sports Illustrated.
Batted .300 15 straight years, 1975-78 he was a top 3 AL player. Small market player in his peak years though hardly underrated - All Star his first 18 years. Never seemed to rip the ball hard, just knew how to place it. Lot of looping, curving hits. Very unique stance & swing.
Signature moment: 1977 ABC news profile
FINAL THOUGHTS - Saw him often in his Twins years, great at hitting singles. Almost obscure during his best years. IDK, he hit for average and the Tigers pitched around him, but he never really struck fear like say Killer Killebrew or Tony Olivia. With the Angels he was one of a handful of aging stars you had to worry about. Did he ever do anything memorable in an important big game? Weak postseason stats. Great hitter but couldn’t push him any higher.
14. (3 points) 2B Eddie Collins
1914 MVP (Chalmers Award), 25 seasons (preASG), 2B (21)-SS (2)-PH (2), .333 career BA, 7-year peak 1909-15 averaged 111 R, 58 SB, .343/.436/.446 led AL R 3x, SB 4x, 2nd BA 3x (to Cobb), 6 pennants, 4 WSC (.328/.381/.414), by Win Shares Bill James ranks him the greatest 2B of all time. HoF Class of 1939, was one of 11 living players honored at the first induction when Cooperstown opened June 12, 1939.. All time ranks: 18th R, 11th H, 12th 3B, 19th BB, 8th SB, 3rd Singles, 1st SH.
123.9 / 120.5 WAR
94.1 JAWS
.409 wOBA
144 wRC+
141 OPS+
Eddie Collins played 25 season and ranks 11th on the all-time list with 3,315 career hits. He never once led the league in hits or won a batting title, but he finished his career with an impressive .333/.424/.429 line and his 124.0 career rWAR is good for 10th-best among position players. He also tallied 1,300 RBI and 1,821 runs scored and won AL MVP honors in 1914.
This one surprised me; forgot how good he was. I used to think Collins or Gehringer was an interesting debate, but upon further study it’s Eddie all the way.
Excellent place hitter, slick fielder and smart baserunner. First player to steal 80 bases. No Gold Gloves in his era but led 2B in FPct 9 times (+ 2nd 6x) with very good range factor numbers.
Was the only MVP traded/sold before the next season until Alex Rodriguez 87 years later. Nickname was “Cocky.” Part of the “$100,000 Infield” which won 4 pennants & 3 WSC 1910-1914. By 1915 he was the 3rd highest paid player behind Cobb and Speaker.
When he retired he was 2nd in MLB history in G (2,826), BB (1,499) and SB (744), 3rd in R (1,821), 4th in H (3,315) and AB (9,949), 6th in OBP (.424), 8th in TB (4,268), and 4th in AL history in 3B (187). Naturally he’s moved down the lists in all those standard stats but clearly one of the great prewar players. Only player to play 12+ seasons with two teams.
47 home runs is the fewest of any Hall of Fame position player. Straddled the Dead Ball and Ruth eras, but he played the same game throughout. Not a superior athlete by any means but sort of a more refined, upper crust precursor of Rose - he willed his way to success. No doubt he was one of the most intelligent players in MLB for his time.
Did really well in the advanced stats, longevity, great base stealer - mostly from studying pitchers & getting big leads rather than pure sped - outstanding glove man, first non-Yankee to win 4 WSC (but no appearances the last 2.) Columbia grad, one of the smartest players of any era. Was captain of the 1919 Black Sox but not involved in the scandal.
Racist ##### who refused to sign Jackie Robinson when he was the Red Sox GM. They were the last team to break their color line.
National Baseball Hall of Fame biography
FINAL THOUGHTS - I was all over the place with this one, as high as 8th and as low as 16th in different iterations of the rankings. Slap hitters are hard to love; chicks dig the long ball. But as with the other singles hitters, isn’t really a guy you can pick as the best in the league. Best at his position for the AL? I think so. But not great great, just great. hehe
13. (4 points) RF Joe Jackson
.356 career batting average (3rd), all time highest rookie batting average (.408), 13 seasons (pre-ASG), 10 full seasons, LF (5)-RF (5), led AL 3B 3x, H 2x, 2B OBP SLG OPS 1x. 2 Pennants, 1 WSC (.345/.368/.455).
62.1 / 60.5 WAR
57.3 JAWS
.443 wOBA
165 wRC+
OPS+ 170
Though he played just nine full seasons prior to his lifetime ban for being part of the 1919 Black Sox scandal, Shoeless Joe Jackson was one of the best hitters the game has ever seen. He was at his best playing for the Cleveland Naps, hitting .381/.449/.550 over a four-year span from 1911-14. He finished his career with 1,772 hits in 1,332 career games.
Couldn’t rank him higher because of his shortened career but he was nearly as good as Cobb or Speaker. Set a WS record with 12 hits in 1919.
Sharecroppers son from South Carolina, illiterate - signed his contracts with an X - married a 15 year old local girl the year he became a pro, disliked big cities. His teammates hazed the country bumpkin and he had difficulty adopting to baseball life. Hit .358 in the South Atlantic League in 1909 but Connie Mack traded him because he thought he lacked the maturity to be a big leaguer, as he had done poorly in two late season call ups. The next he won the Southern Association batting title and hit .387 in 20 G with the Indians.
In his rookie year of 1911, amassed 233 hits, 45 2B, 19 3B, batted .408 - 6th highest 1901-2019 - and led the league in OBP. In 1912-13 he led the league in hits and in SLG+OPS 1913. Three times he topped 20 triples to lead the AL in the Dead Ball era, setting two different franchise records that still stand including the AL record of 26. Finished Top Ten in HRs 6 times.
In August 1915 he was traded to the White Sox, hitting .307 in the WS they won that fall. He missed all but 17 G in the 1918 season because of WWI. He hit .351 the next year and .375 with no errors in the Black Sox WS loss. In his last season he hit .382 with a career high 121 RBIs.
Never won a batting title because Cobb was in his prime, winning 12/13 1907-1919. Jackson finished Top Ten 8/10 seasons: 2nd his first three years (.408-.395-.373), 3rd in 1916 (.341, Cobb .370, Speaker .386) and 1920 (.382, Speaker .388, Sisler .407), 4th 2x, 7th 1x.
Many players in the Dead Ball era choked up on the bat with their hands separated. Shoeless Joe kept his hands together on the end of the bat and strode into his swing, producing the hardest hit line drives in MLB. Babe Ruth though his technique was perfect and told a reporter in 1919 he copied his swing from Jackson.
News accounts of his alleged grand jury testimony do not match the stenographic record. A jury acquired the 8 White Sox players of any wrongdoing but Judge Kennesaw Landis imposes a lifetime ban. After his expulsion the local Chicago paper ran the infamous “Say It Ain’t So, Joe” headline. Their is considerable doubt Joe was in on the fix,& the other 7 players confirmed he never went to any of their meetings related to the scandal. Jackson maintained his innocence for 30 years to no avail. He remains on the ineligible list.
He played semipro ball under pseudonyms for 20 years in Georgia and South Carolina. “All the big sportswriters seemed to enjoy writing about me as an ignorant cotton-mill boy with nothing but lint where my brains ought to be,” Jackson said in 1949. “That was all right with me. I was able to fool a lot of pitchers and managers and club owners I wouldn’t have been able to fool if they’d thought I was smarter.”
His wife of 43 years - the 15 year old local sweetheart - read his contracts, managed his affairs, wrote letters on his behalf. She helped run a series of successful businesses: pool room, dry cleaning plant, BBQ restaurant, and most famously, “Joe Jackson’s Liquor Store”. I think Katie was the highlight of his life.
In the winter of 1933-34, Ty Cobb and sportswriter Granted Rice entered the liquor store, with Jackson showing no sign of recognition towards Cobb. After making his purchase, Cobb finally asked Jackson, "Don't you know me, Joe?" Jackson replied, "Sure, I know you, Ty, but I wasn't sure you wanted to know me. A lot of them don't."
Shoeless Joe Jackson: Hall of Fane worthy?
FINAL THOUGHTS - Debated this a lot. I had him as high as 8th or 9th on advanced stats. Personally I think he wasn’t a real smart feller, it’s doubtful he threw the 1919 Series. But at the end of the day, he only played 9 MLB seasons. I’m OK with him here though because especially in MLB folks do love their compilers.
12. (5 point) 1B Willie McCovey
RotY, MVP, 22 seasons, 6 ASG, 1B (19)-LF (3), led the league in HR 3x, RBI 2x, S.Pct & OPS 3 straight years (1968-70), 2 postseasons (.310/.412/.689), 1 pennant, 0 WSC.
64.5 / 67.4 WAR
54.5 JAWS
.388 wOBA
145 wRC+
147 OPS+
A prolific slugger during his time with the San Francisco Giants, Willie McCovey had 521 home runs and 1,555 RBI over his 22-year big league career. He won NL MVP honors in 1969 when he hit .320/.453/.656 and led the league with 45 home runs and 126 RBI.
Went 29-92-.372/.459/.760 in 1959 AAA ball before the Giants called him up at the end of July. Went 4-4 with two triples off a HoF pitcher in his debut, won RotY despite playing only 52 G (13-38-.354/.429/.656). Played his entire career in California; 19 years in two stints with the Giants, 3 with SD (+ a cup of coffee as DH with the A’s.) Retired with 521 HR (T8th), then a NL LH record and 2nd behind only Ruth amongst LHs (he’s now 20th all time.)
Bouton (Ball Four): “A group of terrorized pitchers stood around the batting cage watching Willie McCovey belt some tremendous line drives over the right-field fence. Every time a ball bounced into the seats we’d make little whimpering animal sounds. ‘Hey, Willie,’ I said. ‘Can you do that whenever you want to?’ He didn’t crack a smile. ‘Just about,’ he said, and he hit another one. More animal sounds.”
At his peak no one was more feared. Intentionally walked 45 times in 1969, breaking the old record by a dozen. 40 IBB in 1970. Sparky Anderson said if they pitched to him he’d hit 80 HR; there’s no comparison between McCovey and anyone else. Walter Alston said, "McCovey didn't hit any cheap ones. When he belts a home run, he does it with such authority it seems like an act of God. You can't cry about it."
6’4” with long arms that hung off a massive frame, Stretch was a line drive, dead pull slugger, below average fielder, probably the most popular Giants player ever (yes, even more than Mays.) Bothered by foot and hip injuries with arthritis in his knees, he was a part-timer much of the last decade he played. In 1986 he was the 16th first ballot Hall of Famer.
Signature play 1962 World Series
You gotta watch this! One of the best Game 7s ever, stunning conclusion.
Peanuts cartoon December 22, 1962
Peanuts cartoon January 28, 1963
backstory
FINAL THOUGHTS - Dude was legit scary. Nobody on the right side of play was safe when he was batting.
Guys - wait a second, is there not a solitary woman in this draft? anyway - I’m not much of a baseball fan anymore. I haven’t cared for the way owners ruined the game after A. Bartlett Giamatti died, and they completely lost me after shutting down the season in 1994. When I left Detroit 20+ years ago Tiger Stadium was still standing and Cal Ripken, Jr. had (just) ended his playing streak.
I watched a lot of the postseason last year for the first time in 5 years. This exercise was really fun but I frankly had some big holes to fill when it came to understanding advanced stats developed in the last two decades. Before I even started thinking about rankings I spent hours immersed in B-R, Fan Graphs, and SABR.
Baseball was my first love. I destroyed various external parts of our home throwing baseballs and tennis balls against objects. The fireplace foundation, brick planter next to the entryway, an entire wall of our 6-car garage - 15’ to the rafters, I would put all the cars in the driveway to hit balls off a tee for months during brutal Michigan winters - and more windows than you can imagine. I got whupped with a weeping willow switch often. The worst part was going out in the yard to break one off the tree branch because you’ve just been told you’re getting a beating.
While it was not the only thing I relied upon, five advanced statistics (+ two for pitchers) emerged as the foundation of my newfound understanding of the game of my youth.
Wins Above Replacement (WAR)**
Jaffe Wins Above Replacement Score (JAWS)
weighted on-base average (wOBA)
weighted runs created plus (wRC+)
adjusted OPS (OPS+)
adjusted ERA (ERA+)
fielding independent pitching (FIP)
**used both bWAR & fWAR, equal weighting.
As with 4 of the 5 other categories I have judged, the system was just a rough cut. Further refinement relied on a multitude of rankings and my own personal conclusions which are more qualitative in nature. In the end these rankings are nothing more than one person’s subjective opinion.
Tier 5
Franchise favorite, best player locally
16. (1 point) LF Pete Rose
RotY, MVP, WS MVP, 2 GG, 3 batting titles, 24 seasons, 17 ASG, 2B(4)-LF(4)-RF(4)-3B(4)-1B(8), ranks 1st in G, AB, H, singles, 2nd 2B, 6th RS. Batted .300 15x, 44-game hitting streak (NL record), 6 pennants 3 WSC (.321/.388/.440 in 8 postseasons, all higher than regular season.) Led the league in hits 7x, 2B 5x, RS 4x, OBP 2x.
79.7 / 80.5 WAR
62.3 JAWS
.354 wOBA
121 wRC+
118 OPS+
Baseball's all-time hits leader with 4,256 over the course of his 24-year big league career, Pete Rose won three batting titles and led the league in hits seven different times while earning the nickname "Charlie Hustle" for his all-out style of play.
Stayed healthy and stuck around for a long time. Serviceable defensively, excellent lead off hitter, intense leader. He was an inspiration for literally millions of mediocre kids who saw themselves in him. “I may not be the most talented, but I can always hustle, I can always outwork the other kids with more talent” was the mantra of many youth in the 60s & 70s.
Compiled his way into the standard stat record books but last in this cohort group in every advanced stat except for WAR. Great team player, willing switched positions several times to help his team field the best lineup.
Signature play: 1970 All Star Game, scores game winning run by barreling through Ray Fosse in the 12th inning
interview with Chris Russo
Good clip, he talks about what the ASG meant to National Leaguers (they ALWAYS won when I was a kid.)
FINAL THOUGHTS - Was this a homer pick by a Ohioan? I mean he was definitely getting drafted but he is a polarizing figure. Was kind of shocked he came off relatively early. In the end my placement was based on advanced stats plus nobody ever thought he was the best player in baseball (or his team) at any time in his career. The lifetime ban wasn’t a factor, I simply don’t think he is better than anyone else drafted for this category.
15. (2 points) 1B Rod Carew
MVP, RotY, 7x batting champ, 19 seasons, 18 ASG, 2B(9)-1B(10, led league in OBP 4x, H 3x, 3B 2x, RS & OPS x1. Lifetime .328, 3K hits. 4 postseason (.220 in 50 AB), 0 pennants & WSC.
81.3 / 72.3 WAR
81.0 JAWS
.369 wOBA
132 wRC+
OPS+ 131
With a .328/.393/.429 career line and an impressive seven batting titles to his credit, Rod Carew was arguably the best contact hitter of the 1970s. He made the All-Star team each of the first 18 seasons of his career.
Phenomenal contact hitter. Not much power and below average defensively but man was he a tough out. 1971-78 peak .344/.407/.457 while averaging 198 hits. Something of a liability in the field, always made a lot of errors. In his MVP season of 1977, he was batting .403 on July 10 when he landed on the cover of Time and Sports Illustrated.
Batted .300 15 straight years, 1975-78 he was a top 3 AL player. Small market player in his peak years though hardly underrated - All Star his first 18 years. Never seemed to rip the ball hard, just knew how to place it. Lot of looping, curving hits. Very unique stance & swing.
Signature moment: 1977 ABC news profile
FINAL THOUGHTS - Saw him often in his Twins years, great at hitting singles. Almost obscure during his best years. IDK, he hit for average and the Tigers pitched around him, but he never really struck fear like say Killer Killebrew or Tony Olivia. With the Angels he was one of a handful of aging stars you had to worry about. Did he ever do anything memorable in an important big game? Weak postseason stats. Great hitter but couldn’t push him any higher.
14. (3 points) 2B Eddie Collins
1914 MVP (Chalmers Award), 25 seasons (preASG), 2B (21)-SS (2)-PH (2), .333 career BA, 7-year peak 1909-15 averaged 111 R, 58 SB, .343/.436/.446 led AL R 3x, SB 4x, 2nd BA 3x (to Cobb), 6 pennants, 4 WSC (.328/.381/.414), by Win Shares Bill James ranks him the greatest 2B of all time. HoF Class of 1939, was one of 11 living players honored at the first induction when Cooperstown opened June 12, 1939.. All time ranks: 18th R, 11th H, 12th 3B, 19th BB, 8th SB, 3rd Singles, 1st SH.
123.9 / 120.5 WAR
94.1 JAWS
.409 wOBA
144 wRC+
141 OPS+
Eddie Collins played 25 season and ranks 11th on the all-time list with 3,315 career hits. He never once led the league in hits or won a batting title, but he finished his career with an impressive .333/.424/.429 line and his 124.0 career rWAR is good for 10th-best among position players. He also tallied 1,300 RBI and 1,821 runs scored and won AL MVP honors in 1914.
This one surprised me; forgot how good he was. I used to think Collins or Gehringer was an interesting debate, but upon further study it’s Eddie all the way.
Excellent place hitter, slick fielder and smart baserunner. First player to steal 80 bases. No Gold Gloves in his era but led 2B in FPct 9 times (+ 2nd 6x) with very good range factor numbers.
Was the only MVP traded/sold before the next season until Alex Rodriguez 87 years later. Nickname was “Cocky.” Part of the “$100,000 Infield” which won 4 pennants & 3 WSC 1910-1914. By 1915 he was the 3rd highest paid player behind Cobb and Speaker.
When he retired he was 2nd in MLB history in G (2,826), BB (1,499) and SB (744), 3rd in R (1,821), 4th in H (3,315) and AB (9,949), 6th in OBP (.424), 8th in TB (4,268), and 4th in AL history in 3B (187). Naturally he’s moved down the lists in all those standard stats but clearly one of the great prewar players. Only player to play 12+ seasons with two teams.
47 home runs is the fewest of any Hall of Fame position player. Straddled the Dead Ball and Ruth eras, but he played the same game throughout. Not a superior athlete by any means but sort of a more refined, upper crust precursor of Rose - he willed his way to success. No doubt he was one of the most intelligent players in MLB for his time.
Did really well in the advanced stats, longevity, great base stealer - mostly from studying pitchers & getting big leads rather than pure sped - outstanding glove man, first non-Yankee to win 4 WSC (but no appearances the last 2.) Columbia grad, one of the smartest players of any era. Was captain of the 1919 Black Sox but not involved in the scandal.
Racist ##### who refused to sign Jackie Robinson when he was the Red Sox GM. They were the last team to break their color line.
National Baseball Hall of Fame biography
FINAL THOUGHTS - I was all over the place with this one, as high as 8th and as low as 16th in different iterations of the rankings. Slap hitters are hard to love; chicks dig the long ball. But as with the other singles hitters, isn’t really a guy you can pick as the best in the league. Best at his position for the AL? I think so. But not great great, just great. hehe
13. (4 points) RF Joe Jackson
.356 career batting average (3rd), all time highest rookie batting average (.408), 13 seasons (pre-ASG), 10 full seasons, LF (5)-RF (5), led AL 3B 3x, H 2x, 2B OBP SLG OPS 1x. 2 Pennants, 1 WSC (.345/.368/.455).
62.1 / 60.5 WAR
57.3 JAWS
.443 wOBA
165 wRC+
OPS+ 170
Though he played just nine full seasons prior to his lifetime ban for being part of the 1919 Black Sox scandal, Shoeless Joe Jackson was one of the best hitters the game has ever seen. He was at his best playing for the Cleveland Naps, hitting .381/.449/.550 over a four-year span from 1911-14. He finished his career with 1,772 hits in 1,332 career games.
Couldn’t rank him higher because of his shortened career but he was nearly as good as Cobb or Speaker. Set a WS record with 12 hits in 1919.
Sharecroppers son from South Carolina, illiterate - signed his contracts with an X - married a 15 year old local girl the year he became a pro, disliked big cities. His teammates hazed the country bumpkin and he had difficulty adopting to baseball life. Hit .358 in the South Atlantic League in 1909 but Connie Mack traded him because he thought he lacked the maturity to be a big leaguer, as he had done poorly in two late season call ups. The next he won the Southern Association batting title and hit .387 in 20 G with the Indians.
In his rookie year of 1911, amassed 233 hits, 45 2B, 19 3B, batted .408 - 6th highest 1901-2019 - and led the league in OBP. In 1912-13 he led the league in hits and in SLG+OPS 1913. Three times he topped 20 triples to lead the AL in the Dead Ball era, setting two different franchise records that still stand including the AL record of 26. Finished Top Ten in HRs 6 times.
In August 1915 he was traded to the White Sox, hitting .307 in the WS they won that fall. He missed all but 17 G in the 1918 season because of WWI. He hit .351 the next year and .375 with no errors in the Black Sox WS loss. In his last season he hit .382 with a career high 121 RBIs.
Never won a batting title because Cobb was in his prime, winning 12/13 1907-1919. Jackson finished Top Ten 8/10 seasons: 2nd his first three years (.408-.395-.373), 3rd in 1916 (.341, Cobb .370, Speaker .386) and 1920 (.382, Speaker .388, Sisler .407), 4th 2x, 7th 1x.
Many players in the Dead Ball era choked up on the bat with their hands separated. Shoeless Joe kept his hands together on the end of the bat and strode into his swing, producing the hardest hit line drives in MLB. Babe Ruth though his technique was perfect and told a reporter in 1919 he copied his swing from Jackson.
News accounts of his alleged grand jury testimony do not match the stenographic record. A jury acquired the 8 White Sox players of any wrongdoing but Judge Kennesaw Landis imposes a lifetime ban. After his expulsion the local Chicago paper ran the infamous “Say It Ain’t So, Joe” headline. Their is considerable doubt Joe was in on the fix,& the other 7 players confirmed he never went to any of their meetings related to the scandal. Jackson maintained his innocence for 30 years to no avail. He remains on the ineligible list.
He played semipro ball under pseudonyms for 20 years in Georgia and South Carolina. “All the big sportswriters seemed to enjoy writing about me as an ignorant cotton-mill boy with nothing but lint where my brains ought to be,” Jackson said in 1949. “That was all right with me. I was able to fool a lot of pitchers and managers and club owners I wouldn’t have been able to fool if they’d thought I was smarter.”
His wife of 43 years - the 15 year old local sweetheart - read his contracts, managed his affairs, wrote letters on his behalf. She helped run a series of successful businesses: pool room, dry cleaning plant, BBQ restaurant, and most famously, “Joe Jackson’s Liquor Store”. I think Katie was the highlight of his life.
In the winter of 1933-34, Ty Cobb and sportswriter Granted Rice entered the liquor store, with Jackson showing no sign of recognition towards Cobb. After making his purchase, Cobb finally asked Jackson, "Don't you know me, Joe?" Jackson replied, "Sure, I know you, Ty, but I wasn't sure you wanted to know me. A lot of them don't."
Shoeless Joe Jackson: Hall of Fane worthy?
FINAL THOUGHTS - Debated this a lot. I had him as high as 8th or 9th on advanced stats. Personally I think he wasn’t a real smart feller, it’s doubtful he threw the 1919 Series. But at the end of the day, he only played 9 MLB seasons. I’m OK with him here though because especially in MLB folks do love their compilers.
12. (5 point) 1B Willie McCovey
RotY, MVP, 22 seasons, 6 ASG, 1B (19)-LF (3), led the league in HR 3x, RBI 2x, S.Pct & OPS 3 straight years (1968-70), 2 postseasons (.310/.412/.689), 1 pennant, 0 WSC.
64.5 / 67.4 WAR
54.5 JAWS
.388 wOBA
145 wRC+
147 OPS+
A prolific slugger during his time with the San Francisco Giants, Willie McCovey had 521 home runs and 1,555 RBI over his 22-year big league career. He won NL MVP honors in 1969 when he hit .320/.453/.656 and led the league with 45 home runs and 126 RBI.
Went 29-92-.372/.459/.760 in 1959 AAA ball before the Giants called him up at the end of July. Went 4-4 with two triples off a HoF pitcher in his debut, won RotY despite playing only 52 G (13-38-.354/.429/.656). Played his entire career in California; 19 years in two stints with the Giants, 3 with SD (+ a cup of coffee as DH with the A’s.) Retired with 521 HR (T8th), then a NL LH record and 2nd behind only Ruth amongst LHs (he’s now 20th all time.)
Bouton (Ball Four): “A group of terrorized pitchers stood around the batting cage watching Willie McCovey belt some tremendous line drives over the right-field fence. Every time a ball bounced into the seats we’d make little whimpering animal sounds. ‘Hey, Willie,’ I said. ‘Can you do that whenever you want to?’ He didn’t crack a smile. ‘Just about,’ he said, and he hit another one. More animal sounds.”
At his peak no one was more feared. Intentionally walked 45 times in 1969, breaking the old record by a dozen. 40 IBB in 1970. Sparky Anderson said if they pitched to him he’d hit 80 HR; there’s no comparison between McCovey and anyone else. Walter Alston said, "McCovey didn't hit any cheap ones. When he belts a home run, he does it with such authority it seems like an act of God. You can't cry about it."
6’4” with long arms that hung off a massive frame, Stretch was a line drive, dead pull slugger, below average fielder, probably the most popular Giants player ever (yes, even more than Mays.) Bothered by foot and hip injuries with arthritis in his knees, he was a part-timer much of the last decade he played. In 1986 he was the 16th first ballot Hall of Famer.
Signature play 1962 World Series
You gotta watch this! One of the best Game 7s ever, stunning conclusion.
Peanuts cartoon December 22, 1962
Peanuts cartoon January 28, 1963
backstory
FINAL THOUGHTS - Dude was legit scary. Nobody on the right side of play was safe when he was batting.
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
That Alston quote had a bracketed s that to correct the grammar, messed up the formatting by striking out everything after it.
Will try to finish up tonight, I’m 95-98% there on the write ups.
Will try to finish up tonight, I’m 95-98% there on the write ups.
This was my last pick of the draft and I decided to go with my favorite all time player. I wasn't expecting much but thought an outside chance at 13th in the category going above the next two you ranked ahead in Collins/Shoeless Joe (wasn't sure if penalized for short career and being booted from baseball).
Carew had a phenomenal career but not many people really know how good of a pure hitter this guy was. He definitely did not instill fear but was always putting the ball in play and getting on base. Never on great teams so he never really had much chance in the postseason. I am happy he wasn't last.
ETA: I am sure my reign at the top will end with this category.
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I didn’t consider Rose or Jackson being on the restricted list as being a factor.
Pete led the league in cats a lot because he was super durable, the 44-game hit streak was a national story, guy was always on good teams from year 8 on so he was always part of the conversation. But when you break it down, outside of being the all time best compiler he wasn’t ever elite.
Jackson was so good! His first full four years with the Cleveland Naps, he hit .381, but never won a batting title. The top 3 players in MLB were all AL Centerfielders, he just happened to be #3. Had some regression thereafter but still an elite player. Just didn’t play long enough.
Carew was a great hitter, and a very good base stealer when he was young. Best offensive 2B (until Morgan took his game up a notch) but not the same level of excellence defensively there or after they moved him over to first.
Pete led the league in cats a lot because he was super durable, the 44-game hit streak was a national story, guy was always on good teams from year 8 on so he was always part of the conversation. But when you break it down, outside of being the all time best compiler he wasn’t ever elite.
Jackson was so good! His first full four years with the Cleveland Naps, he hit .381, but never won a batting title. The top 3 players in MLB were all AL Centerfielders, he just happened to be #3. Had some regression thereafter but still an elite player. Just didn’t play long enough.
Carew was a great hitter, and a very good base stealer when he was young. Best offensive 2B (until Morgan took his game up a notch) but not the same level of excellence defensively there or after they moved him over to first.
timschochet
Footballguy
Hello.
There are two alternatives:
A. My draft sucked.
B. The rest of you suck, especially the judges.
Gotta go with #2!
There are two alternatives:
A. My draft sucked.
B. The rest of you suck, especially the judges.
Gotta go with #2!
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Category 2 - Greatest Baseball Player (continued)
Tier 4
Pitching is 75 percent of the game
11. (6 points) SP Lefty Grove
MVP, 2x Pitching Triple Crown, 9 ERA titles, WAR (P) 8x, strikeout king 7x (consecutive), led league in ERA+ 9x, FIP 8x, SO/W 8x, WHIP 5x, wPct 5x, W 4x, CG 3x, 17 seasons, 6 ASG**, 3 pennants, 2 WSC (4-2, 1.75)
106.7 / 88.8 WAR
86.1 JAWS
148 ERA+
3.364 FIP
Lefty Grove finished his career 300-161, giving him the best winning percentage of any 300-game winner. His 3.06 ERA is solid and made even better with a closer look at the numbers, as his 148 ERA+ is the fourth-best total among pitchers with at least 1,000 innings. .680 winning percentage leads all 300 game winners. He earned AL MVP honors in 1931 when he went 31-4 with a 2.06 ERA and 175 strikeouts to also claim Triple Crown honors (2nd consecutive.)
Hard to compare pitchers alongside everyday stars. As dominant as the game ever saw 1928-31. Career WAR (P) 6th all time, ERA+ 5th, WPct 9th. Contrary to popular belief I never saw him play.
From the Coal Mines to Cooperstown
FINAL THOUGHTS - not quite as good as GCA overall but his peak was better. One of the best LHP of all time.
**would have made 6-7 more if the midsummer classic existed when he started playing
10. (7 points) SP Pete Alexander
I like to tell stories. This guy has one of he best stories to tell in the 144 seasons the National League has been playing games.
Triple Crown 4x (3 consecutive), led league in SHO 7x, IP 7x, W 6x, Ks 6x, CG 6x, ERA 5x, WHIP 5x, ERA+ & FIP 4x, SO/W 3x, 3 pennants 1 WSC (3-2, 3.56**).
119.0 / 96.5 WAR
94.3 JAWS
135 ERA+
2.881 FIP
Third on the all-time wins list with a 373-208 record, Grover Cleveland Alexander posted a 2.56 ERA and 1.121 WHIP over 20 big league seasons.
He led the league in wins six times, including three straight 30-win seasons, and also added four ERA titles and six strikeouts titles. His 90 shutouts place him 2nd on the all-time list, and his rWAR is good for 4th among pitchers.
Grover Cleveland had quite a career. Dominant peak and sustained excellence. First 7 seasons he went 190-88, 2.12. After serving in France he wasn’t the same man, though his greatest glory was yet to come.
His performance in 1911 is arguably the greatest season by a rookie pitcher in the twentieth century: 28-13, 2.57. Led the league in wins (20th century record for rookies), beat Cy Young (a one-hit 1-0 shutout, 2nd in strikeouts - 227 stood as the record for rookies until 1955 - led the league in CG with 31, IP with 367, and SHO with 7 (four of them consecutive). ERA was 5th. Pitching relief occasionally between starts, he picked up three saves. 41 wins while leading the league in Ks and SHO one time each in the next two years, returned to his dominant rookie form in 1914 (27-15, 2.38 ERA, led league in W, IP, K, CG.)
In the 1915 he had the first of his 4 Triple Crown seasons and first of three consecutive 30-win seasons. 31-10, microscopic 1.22 ERA, career-high 241 strikeouts. He led the league in every important pitcher's category: innings pitched (376 1/3), complete games (36), winning percentage (.756), and shutouts with an incredible 12, a figure that stood as the National League record for one year. To make his domination of hitters humiliating as well as complete, he pitched four one-hitters (one was an 8-2/3 perfect game.)
WS he won Game 1 and on 2 days rest lost game 3 2-1, the winning scoring with 2 out on the bottom of the 9th. The Phillies lost to the Red Sox in 5.
1916 was another Triple Crown: 33-12, 167 strikeouts, and a 1.55 ERA. He reached a career-high and league-leading 389 innings, 45 starts, and 38 complete games-and 16 shutouts. He's the only National League pitcher to reach double figures twice in shutouts, and he holds the MLB record for shutouts by three over two others.
1917 was more of the same: 30-13 and with 200 strikeouts to lead the league along with a 1.83 ERA and a league-best 8 shutouts, 44 starts, 34 complete games, and 388 innings pitched.
The 1911-17 Philadelphia years are all the more remarkable because he played in the Baker Bowl, a small bandbox park that heavily favored hitters.
With the country now in the Great War, and banking on Alex being drafted, the Phillies traded him to the Cubs in December, 1917 for two players and $55,000. He won 2 of 3 CG starts with a 1.73 ERA for Chicago in 1918 before shipping out to the Western Front.
A sergeant assigned to the 89th Division and the 342nd Field Artillery, Alex shipped out from New York on June 28 and arrived in Liverpool on July 9. His unit went to the front late in July.
Many men survived the war, but they didn't recover from it. One of the many cruel coincidences of the war is that it destroyed the two greatest National League pitchers of the Deadball Era, if not of the twentieth century, Christy Mathewson and Grover Cleveland Alexander.
Alexander spent seven weeks at the front under relentless bombardment that left him deaf in his left ear. Pulling the lanyard to fire the howitzers caused muscle damage in his right arm. He caught some shrapnel in his outer right ear, an injury thought not serious at the time but which may have been the progenitor of cancer almost thirty years later. He was shell-shocked. Worst of all, the man who used to have a round or two with the guys and call it a day became alcoholic and epileptic, a condition possibly caused by a baseball skulling he'd received in the minors.
Alexander tried to cover up his epilepsy, using alcohol in the mistaken belief that it would alleviate the condition. Living in a world that believed epileptics to be touched by the devil, he knew it was more socially acceptable to be a drunk.
A human wreck, Alexander returned to the Cubs on May 11, 1919. Working his way back into pitching shape, he dropped his first five decisions. Once he got turned around, Alex finished 16-11 for a distantly third-place team and led the league with 9 shutouts and a sparkling 1.72 ERA. His ERA remains the lowest for a Cub pitcher since the team began playing in Wrigley Field.
He transcended his fifth-place team in 1920 with his last Triple Crown season: 27-14 with 173 strikeouts and a 1.91 ERA. In addition, he led the league in starts (40), complete games (33), and innings pitched (363 1/3) and threw in 7 shutouts and 5 saves.
From 1921 on, Alexander was a different pitcher, depending on finesse and pinpoint control, never striking out a hundred batters again, walking very few, having ERAs over three for the first time in his career, but still winning more than he lost. Alcohol was taking over his life, as he drank to relive the past, forget the present, and forestall the future. No longer a great pitcher, he was still a very good one, capable of picking up 22 wins in 1923 and setting a major-league record by starting the season pitching 52 consecutive innings before issuing a walk.
After the Cubs finished last in 1925, the front office brought in a career minor-leaguer named Joe McCarthy to manage in 1926. McCarthy, who would become a great manager, thought Alexander's drinking was hurting the team. Alex made clear from the start that he had no use for McCarthy. With Alex muddling along at 3-3, the Cubs traded him to St. Louis for the waiver price on June 22. Legendary Cardinals player-manager Rogers Hornsby, wanting to win the pennant, figured Alex could help him and tolerated the drinking as long as it didn't interfere with business. Alex helped, his 9-7 effort providing the margin in St. Louis' two-game lead over Cincinnati.
Well past his prime at age 39 (16th season), he pitched CG victories in games 2 and 6 of the 1926 World Series VS the Yankees. In game 7, on no rest, he came on with 2 outs in the 7th, bases loaded, the Cardinals clinging to a 3-2 advantage, and dangerous Tony Lazzeri at the plate. He struck him out, then got the last 6outs to pick up the save to win his only title. After striking out just 48 in 200.1 IP, he racked up 17 Ks in 20.1 IP in the WS.
In 1927 he rebounded with 21-10, 2.52, slid to 16-9 the next year including his 90th shutout. In the WS sweep loss VS the NYY he was shelled in his Game 2 start and a relief appearance (5 IP, 4 BB, 10 H, 3 HR, 11 ER.) his lifetime WS ERA shot up from 1.42 to 3.56.
He won his last start of 1929 (9-8), believing it was his 373rd win, one ahead of Mathews. In the 1940s researchers discovered an error in 1902 records, giving Christy one more W and forever linking the two in the record books, 4th best in MLB history.
12 years to the day, the Cubs traded him back to the Phillies. He went 0-3 - his only losing season. The last two decades of Alexander's life are the picture of a man spinning out of control with nobody able to stop the free-fall. Alcoholism, poverty and chronic homelessness, twice divorced. He was elected to the Baseball HoF in 1938. After his death in 1947 he was laid to rest with full military honors.
Old Pete strikes out Tony Lazzeri 1926 WS Game 7
Final Thoughts: Behind only Matthews (?), Johnson, and Young among Dead Ball era pitchers. Wasn’t the same man after World War I but his 1926 heroics cemented his legacy.
**3-1, 1.42 with 4CG and a 7-out save in his first two WS; gave up 11 ER in 5 IP in his final series appearance.
Tier 4
Pitching is 75 percent of the game
11. (6 points) SP Lefty Grove
MVP, 2x Pitching Triple Crown, 9 ERA titles, WAR (P) 8x, strikeout king 7x (consecutive), led league in ERA+ 9x, FIP 8x, SO/W 8x, WHIP 5x, wPct 5x, W 4x, CG 3x, 17 seasons, 6 ASG**, 3 pennants, 2 WSC (4-2, 1.75)
106.7 / 88.8 WAR
86.1 JAWS
148 ERA+
3.364 FIP
Lefty Grove finished his career 300-161, giving him the best winning percentage of any 300-game winner. His 3.06 ERA is solid and made even better with a closer look at the numbers, as his 148 ERA+ is the fourth-best total among pitchers with at least 1,000 innings. .680 winning percentage leads all 300 game winners. He earned AL MVP honors in 1931 when he went 31-4 with a 2.06 ERA and 175 strikeouts to also claim Triple Crown honors (2nd consecutive.)
Hard to compare pitchers alongside everyday stars. As dominant as the game ever saw 1928-31. Career WAR (P) 6th all time, ERA+ 5th, WPct 9th. Contrary to popular belief I never saw him play.
From the Coal Mines to Cooperstown
FINAL THOUGHTS - not quite as good as GCA overall but his peak was better. One of the best LHP of all time.
**would have made 6-7 more if the midsummer classic existed when he started playing
10. (7 points) SP Pete Alexander
I like to tell stories. This guy has one of he best stories to tell in the 144 seasons the National League has been playing games.
Triple Crown 4x (3 consecutive), led league in SHO 7x, IP 7x, W 6x, Ks 6x, CG 6x, ERA 5x, WHIP 5x, ERA+ & FIP 4x, SO/W 3x, 3 pennants 1 WSC (3-2, 3.56**).
119.0 / 96.5 WAR
94.3 JAWS
135 ERA+
2.881 FIP
Third on the all-time wins list with a 373-208 record, Grover Cleveland Alexander posted a 2.56 ERA and 1.121 WHIP over 20 big league seasons.
He led the league in wins six times, including three straight 30-win seasons, and also added four ERA titles and six strikeouts titles. His 90 shutouts place him 2nd on the all-time list, and his rWAR is good for 4th among pitchers.
Grover Cleveland had quite a career. Dominant peak and sustained excellence. First 7 seasons he went 190-88, 2.12. After serving in France he wasn’t the same man, though his greatest glory was yet to come.
His performance in 1911 is arguably the greatest season by a rookie pitcher in the twentieth century: 28-13, 2.57. Led the league in wins (20th century record for rookies), beat Cy Young (a one-hit 1-0 shutout, 2nd in strikeouts - 227 stood as the record for rookies until 1955 - led the league in CG with 31, IP with 367, and SHO with 7 (four of them consecutive). ERA was 5th. Pitching relief occasionally between starts, he picked up three saves. 41 wins while leading the league in Ks and SHO one time each in the next two years, returned to his dominant rookie form in 1914 (27-15, 2.38 ERA, led league in W, IP, K, CG.)
In the 1915 he had the first of his 4 Triple Crown seasons and first of three consecutive 30-win seasons. 31-10, microscopic 1.22 ERA, career-high 241 strikeouts. He led the league in every important pitcher's category: innings pitched (376 1/3), complete games (36), winning percentage (.756), and shutouts with an incredible 12, a figure that stood as the National League record for one year. To make his domination of hitters humiliating as well as complete, he pitched four one-hitters (one was an 8-2/3 perfect game.)
WS he won Game 1 and on 2 days rest lost game 3 2-1, the winning scoring with 2 out on the bottom of the 9th. The Phillies lost to the Red Sox in 5.
1916 was another Triple Crown: 33-12, 167 strikeouts, and a 1.55 ERA. He reached a career-high and league-leading 389 innings, 45 starts, and 38 complete games-and 16 shutouts. He's the only National League pitcher to reach double figures twice in shutouts, and he holds the MLB record for shutouts by three over two others.
1917 was more of the same: 30-13 and with 200 strikeouts to lead the league along with a 1.83 ERA and a league-best 8 shutouts, 44 starts, 34 complete games, and 388 innings pitched.
The 1911-17 Philadelphia years are all the more remarkable because he played in the Baker Bowl, a small bandbox park that heavily favored hitters.
With the country now in the Great War, and banking on Alex being drafted, the Phillies traded him to the Cubs in December, 1917 for two players and $55,000. He won 2 of 3 CG starts with a 1.73 ERA for Chicago in 1918 before shipping out to the Western Front.
A sergeant assigned to the 89th Division and the 342nd Field Artillery, Alex shipped out from New York on June 28 and arrived in Liverpool on July 9. His unit went to the front late in July.
Many men survived the war, but they didn't recover from it. One of the many cruel coincidences of the war is that it destroyed the two greatest National League pitchers of the Deadball Era, if not of the twentieth century, Christy Mathewson and Grover Cleveland Alexander.
Alexander spent seven weeks at the front under relentless bombardment that left him deaf in his left ear. Pulling the lanyard to fire the howitzers caused muscle damage in his right arm. He caught some shrapnel in his outer right ear, an injury thought not serious at the time but which may have been the progenitor of cancer almost thirty years later. He was shell-shocked. Worst of all, the man who used to have a round or two with the guys and call it a day became alcoholic and epileptic, a condition possibly caused by a baseball skulling he'd received in the minors.
Alexander tried to cover up his epilepsy, using alcohol in the mistaken belief that it would alleviate the condition. Living in a world that believed epileptics to be touched by the devil, he knew it was more socially acceptable to be a drunk.
A human wreck, Alexander returned to the Cubs on May 11, 1919. Working his way back into pitching shape, he dropped his first five decisions. Once he got turned around, Alex finished 16-11 for a distantly third-place team and led the league with 9 shutouts and a sparkling 1.72 ERA. His ERA remains the lowest for a Cub pitcher since the team began playing in Wrigley Field.
He transcended his fifth-place team in 1920 with his last Triple Crown season: 27-14 with 173 strikeouts and a 1.91 ERA. In addition, he led the league in starts (40), complete games (33), and innings pitched (363 1/3) and threw in 7 shutouts and 5 saves.
From 1921 on, Alexander was a different pitcher, depending on finesse and pinpoint control, never striking out a hundred batters again, walking very few, having ERAs over three for the first time in his career, but still winning more than he lost. Alcohol was taking over his life, as he drank to relive the past, forget the present, and forestall the future. No longer a great pitcher, he was still a very good one, capable of picking up 22 wins in 1923 and setting a major-league record by starting the season pitching 52 consecutive innings before issuing a walk.
After the Cubs finished last in 1925, the front office brought in a career minor-leaguer named Joe McCarthy to manage in 1926. McCarthy, who would become a great manager, thought Alexander's drinking was hurting the team. Alex made clear from the start that he had no use for McCarthy. With Alex muddling along at 3-3, the Cubs traded him to St. Louis for the waiver price on June 22. Legendary Cardinals player-manager Rogers Hornsby, wanting to win the pennant, figured Alex could help him and tolerated the drinking as long as it didn't interfere with business. Alex helped, his 9-7 effort providing the margin in St. Louis' two-game lead over Cincinnati.
Well past his prime at age 39 (16th season), he pitched CG victories in games 2 and 6 of the 1926 World Series VS the Yankees. In game 7, on no rest, he came on with 2 outs in the 7th, bases loaded, the Cardinals clinging to a 3-2 advantage, and dangerous Tony Lazzeri at the plate. He struck him out, then got the last 6outs to pick up the save to win his only title. After striking out just 48 in 200.1 IP, he racked up 17 Ks in 20.1 IP in the WS.
In 1927 he rebounded with 21-10, 2.52, slid to 16-9 the next year including his 90th shutout. In the WS sweep loss VS the NYY he was shelled in his Game 2 start and a relief appearance (5 IP, 4 BB, 10 H, 3 HR, 11 ER.) his lifetime WS ERA shot up from 1.42 to 3.56.
He won his last start of 1929 (9-8), believing it was his 373rd win, one ahead of Mathews. In the 1940s researchers discovered an error in 1902 records, giving Christy one more W and forever linking the two in the record books, 4th best in MLB history.
12 years to the day, the Cubs traded him back to the Phillies. He went 0-3 - his only losing season. The last two decades of Alexander's life are the picture of a man spinning out of control with nobody able to stop the free-fall. Alcoholism, poverty and chronic homelessness, twice divorced. He was elected to the Baseball HoF in 1938. After his death in 1947 he was laid to rest with full military honors.
Old Pete strikes out Tony Lazzeri 1926 WS Game 7
Final Thoughts: Behind only Matthews (?), Johnson, and Young among Dead Ball era pitchers. Wasn’t the same man after World War I but his 1926 heroics cemented his legacy.
**3-1, 1.42 with 4CG and a 7-out save in his first two WS; gave up 11 ER in 5 IP in his final series appearance.
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Zegras11
Footballguy
Hope the thread title isn't steering anyone away from Bobby Layne's incredible write-ups.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Category 2 - Greatest Baseball Player (continued)
Tier 3
Best at their position, best player in the league, best of their era, best of the best
9. (8 points) RF Al Kaline
Batting Title, 10 Gold Gloves 1957-67, 22 seasons, 18 ASG, RF (16)-CF (5)-DH (1), 2 postseasons (.333/.373/.563), 1 pennant, 1 WSC, batted .300 9x, 12th man to reach 3,000 hits, 10th player elected to the Hall of Fame on the first ballot. 1st in Tigers history 2834 G, 399 HR, 1277 BB (only 1020 K), 2nd H & RBI, 3rd R & 2B.
92.8 / 88.9 WAR
70.8 JAWS
.378 wOBA
134 wRC+
134 OPS+
He never topped the 30-home run mark, and he drove in over 100 runs only three times, but Al Kaline was a consistent producer throughout his 22 big league seasons with the Detroit Tigers. That resulted in a .297/.376/.480 career line that included 3,007 hits, 399 home runs and 1,583 RBI.
Mr Tiger. My favorite player growing up. Class act. Great defensive player, disciplined and consistent hitter. Never spent a day in the minors. Won his batting title at 20, youngest ever (1 day younger than Cobb in 1907.) Did everything well: rarely struck out, good power to all fields, fast base runner in his youth, excellent defensively with both range & a big arm, as fundamentally sound as anyone - never seemed to make a mental error.
Rarely led the league in any standard batting (1x in H, 2B, BA, SLG, OPS, TB) but consistently top ten across the board 1955-67. Yogi Berra said the best arm of any outfielder, he was considered the elite AL outfielder for a decade plus. SABR goes to great lengths to prove there’s no such thing as clutch hitting; Kaline batted .379 in his only WS, and hit .500 (11-22) in the last week of 1972, including 5/8 in the first 2 games of the H2H series with the BoSox when they clinched the pennant by 1/2 game. Just lucky I guess.
Quiet and reserved introvert. Played all 22 seasons in Detroit, was the tv color commentator for 26 years, spent another 19 in the front office. That’s one year longer than his marriage of 66 years. The most loved Detroit athlete ever, in any sport.
Did better than most in career advanced, elite defensively, not as good a peak as most players drafted but amazingly consistent - never really had a bad year or prolonged slump. Missed 594 games (3-2/3 seasons) due to various broken bones and injuries or his cumulative would have been even better.
Signature moment: 11th inning HR 1st game 1972 ALCS
Al Kaline’s 1968 World Series highlights
6 for 6: Al Kaline’s Greatest Moments
Home Run Derby S01EP10: Henry Aaron VS Al Kaline
FINAL THOUGHTS: Would have ranked him higher but he never had that supernova burst that separated him from the pack. Hard to find his peak, he was merely very good for a long, long time. No weaknesses, good at every positional aspect of the game.
8. (9 points) CF Ken Griffey, Jr
22 seasons, 13 ASG, 630 lifetime HRs (7th), CF (18)-RF (2)-DH (2), averaged 41 HRs 116 RBIs in his 10 healthy seasons 1990-2000, 4 postseasons (.290/.367/.580), 0 pennants & WS.
83.8 / 77.7 WAR
68.9 JAWS
.384 wOBA
131 wRC+
136 OPS+
When he left the Mariners after 11 years - .299/.380/.568 with 1,752 hits, 398 home runs, 1,152 RBI - it seemed only a matter of time before he owned a mother lode of records. RotY, MVP, 10 consecutive Gold Gloves, 7 Silver Sluggers (3rd amongst OF, 7th all positions), 4 Home Run crowns. Had 30HR in the first 65G of 1994, smacked 56 in both 1997 & 1998. Was well on his way to being the greatest CF ever (e.g., meaning better than Speaker, DiMaggio, Cobb, Mantle, and Mays.) Spectacular fielder with great range and unparalleled leaping ability.
With the Reds, CHISox & back in Seattle, the back half of his career was marked by a series of injuries and lower production. 5 of his 8 full seasons in Cincinnati ended with him on the DL. Averaged 103 G 21-62-.262 his last 11 seasons, adding 1,029 hits. Retired abruptly in the middle of a road trip in early June of 2010.
Peak was insanely, awesomely good. One of the most popular athletes of the 1990s. His HoF vote in 2016 was an all time record 99.32%, since broken by Jeter & Rivera.
Had him 14th based on his career advanced batting but his defense and the exceptional offensive peak warrants a bump. But his defense fell off a cliff and he had (mostly due to injuries) mediocre production most of his back half. Great player to watch but inconsistent offense post-Seattle and lack of postseason success hurts him.
Signature play: game winning run in 1995 ALDS
FINAL THOUGHTS: Think I had him as low as 12th off advanced offensive stats before looking at his defense. Tailed off badly once the injuries took its toll. Was still an elite player for well over a decade and his talent, popularity, home runs, and defensive web gems make it easy to rank him here.
7. (10 points) 1B Albert Pujols
RotY, MVP 3x, 2 Gold Gloves, 6 Silver Sluggers, 19 seasons, 10 ASG, 1B (13)-DH (3)-LF (2)-3B (1), led league RS 5x, TB 4x, SLG & OPS 3x, HR 2x, H 2B RBI OBP 1x, 8 postseasons, 3 pennants. 2 WSC (.323/.431/.599). 5 hits, 4 runs, 3 HR & 6 RBI in Game of 2011 WS. Currently 15th all time H with 3202 (117 from 10th), 7th 2B, 6th HR 656 (4 behind Mays), T4th RBI (11 to catch ARod), 5th TB, 5th extra bass hits, 2nd IBB.
100.8 / 87.7 WAR
81.3 JAWS
.388 wOBA
144 wRC+
147 OPS+
There have been 52 first ballot Hall of Fame players (+5 from the initial 1936 class), and along with Miguel Cabrera this guy is a mortal lock for it 5 years after he retires. The generational power hitter of the first decade of the millennium, incredible production.
First 11 seasons (9 ASG) in StL averaged 40-121-.328/.420/.617. Led NL in WAR 5 straight 2005-09 while winning his 3 MVPs. After his 3rd season signed an 8 year, $116M deal with Cardinals. Many consider him the second best Cardinals position player in the postwar era behind Musial.
Pujols is in the top 10 in several Cardinals' statistics. He is second to Musial in doubles (455), home runs (445) and RBI (1,329). He is seventh in games (1,705), seventh in batting average (.328), third in runs scored (1,291, behind Musial and Brock), and fourth in hits (2,073, behind Musial, Brock and Hornsby). He also is in the top 10 in several single-season Cardinals' records.
Has only made 1 ASG in his 8 years with Angels (he signed a 10-year, $254M FA contract in 2011-12 offseason.) Hasn’t hit .300 in his last 9 seasons or SLG .500 his last 7; still career .300/.549, and while in L.A. he has added 4 100-RBI seasons to his MLB record 14 100-RBI seasons.
6’3”, muscular 235, at his peak was the rare combination of contact hitter with raw power. He is the first player with 650+ doubles and homers. Currently the oldest player in the AL.
Signature moment: 2-run homer off Verlander Game 1 2006 WS
FINAL THOUGHTS: Hasn’t been as productive on the second mega contract. Lots of Hall of Famers peak and then tail off for a decade or more. Great peak and a good compiler.
6. (11 points) CF Mike Trout
HE WILL OWN EVERY RECORD BY THE TIME HE IS DONE. (maybe)
RotY, MVP 3x, 7 Silver Sluggers, 8 Seasons, 8 ASG, CF (8). All time ranks: 6th MVP Shares, 7th Silver Sluggers (T3rd OF), 8th OPS, 9th SLG, 21st OBP, career .305 BA. Led league in R 4x, OBP 4x, SLG 3x, BB 3x, RBI TB & SB 1x. 1 postseason (.083/.267/.333).
72.8 / 73.4 WAR
69.2 JAWS
.419 wOBA
172 wRC+
176 OPS+
SEE Griffey, Jr. He’s been the best player 8 years running and has a good chance to be the G.o.A.T. We’re not there yet but that’s his trajectory. Surreal how good he is right now.
In 8 full seasons, #1 WAR 7x and 2nd 1x. MVP runner up 4x. No GGs but 2012 Wilson overall DPotY and 4 excellent Total Zone Fielding seasons. Biggest hole is lack of postseason experience/success.
One of the best young players in MLB history. Hopefully he stays healthy and keeps up his great career. Superb athlete who does everything well.
Mike Trout Career Highlights
FINAL THOUGHTS: Has already proven his greatness. The legacy will depend on staying healthy, productive and winning a championship.
Tier 3
Best at their position, best player in the league, best of their era, best of the best
9. (8 points) RF Al Kaline
Batting Title, 10 Gold Gloves 1957-67, 22 seasons, 18 ASG, RF (16)-CF (5)-DH (1), 2 postseasons (.333/.373/.563), 1 pennant, 1 WSC, batted .300 9x, 12th man to reach 3,000 hits, 10th player elected to the Hall of Fame on the first ballot. 1st in Tigers history 2834 G, 399 HR, 1277 BB (only 1020 K), 2nd H & RBI, 3rd R & 2B.
92.8 / 88.9 WAR
70.8 JAWS
.378 wOBA
134 wRC+
134 OPS+
He never topped the 30-home run mark, and he drove in over 100 runs only three times, but Al Kaline was a consistent producer throughout his 22 big league seasons with the Detroit Tigers. That resulted in a .297/.376/.480 career line that included 3,007 hits, 399 home runs and 1,583 RBI.
Mr Tiger. My favorite player growing up. Class act. Great defensive player, disciplined and consistent hitter. Never spent a day in the minors. Won his batting title at 20, youngest ever (1 day younger than Cobb in 1907.) Did everything well: rarely struck out, good power to all fields, fast base runner in his youth, excellent defensively with both range & a big arm, as fundamentally sound as anyone - never seemed to make a mental error.
Rarely led the league in any standard batting (1x in H, 2B, BA, SLG, OPS, TB) but consistently top ten across the board 1955-67. Yogi Berra said the best arm of any outfielder, he was considered the elite AL outfielder for a decade plus. SABR goes to great lengths to prove there’s no such thing as clutch hitting; Kaline batted .379 in his only WS, and hit .500 (11-22) in the last week of 1972, including 5/8 in the first 2 games of the H2H series with the BoSox when they clinched the pennant by 1/2 game. Just lucky I guess.
Quiet and reserved introvert. Played all 22 seasons in Detroit, was the tv color commentator for 26 years, spent another 19 in the front office. That’s one year longer than his marriage of 66 years. The most loved Detroit athlete ever, in any sport.
Did better than most in career advanced, elite defensively, not as good a peak as most players drafted but amazingly consistent - never really had a bad year or prolonged slump. Missed 594 games (3-2/3 seasons) due to various broken bones and injuries or his cumulative would have been even better.
Signature moment: 11th inning HR 1st game 1972 ALCS
Al Kaline’s 1968 World Series highlights
6 for 6: Al Kaline’s Greatest Moments
Home Run Derby S01EP10: Henry Aaron VS Al Kaline
FINAL THOUGHTS: Would have ranked him higher but he never had that supernova burst that separated him from the pack. Hard to find his peak, he was merely very good for a long, long time. No weaknesses, good at every positional aspect of the game.
8. (9 points) CF Ken Griffey, Jr
22 seasons, 13 ASG, 630 lifetime HRs (7th), CF (18)-RF (2)-DH (2), averaged 41 HRs 116 RBIs in his 10 healthy seasons 1990-2000, 4 postseasons (.290/.367/.580), 0 pennants & WS.
83.8 / 77.7 WAR
68.9 JAWS
.384 wOBA
131 wRC+
136 OPS+
When he left the Mariners after 11 years - .299/.380/.568 with 1,752 hits, 398 home runs, 1,152 RBI - it seemed only a matter of time before he owned a mother lode of records. RotY, MVP, 10 consecutive Gold Gloves, 7 Silver Sluggers (3rd amongst OF, 7th all positions), 4 Home Run crowns. Had 30HR in the first 65G of 1994, smacked 56 in both 1997 & 1998. Was well on his way to being the greatest CF ever (e.g., meaning better than Speaker, DiMaggio, Cobb, Mantle, and Mays.) Spectacular fielder with great range and unparalleled leaping ability.
With the Reds, CHISox & back in Seattle, the back half of his career was marked by a series of injuries and lower production. 5 of his 8 full seasons in Cincinnati ended with him on the DL. Averaged 103 G 21-62-.262 his last 11 seasons, adding 1,029 hits. Retired abruptly in the middle of a road trip in early June of 2010.
Peak was insanely, awesomely good. One of the most popular athletes of the 1990s. His HoF vote in 2016 was an all time record 99.32%, since broken by Jeter & Rivera.
Had him 14th based on his career advanced batting but his defense and the exceptional offensive peak warrants a bump. But his defense fell off a cliff and he had (mostly due to injuries) mediocre production most of his back half. Great player to watch but inconsistent offense post-Seattle and lack of postseason success hurts him.
Signature play: game winning run in 1995 ALDS
FINAL THOUGHTS: Think I had him as low as 12th off advanced offensive stats before looking at his defense. Tailed off badly once the injuries took its toll. Was still an elite player for well over a decade and his talent, popularity, home runs, and defensive web gems make it easy to rank him here.
7. (10 points) 1B Albert Pujols
RotY, MVP 3x, 2 Gold Gloves, 6 Silver Sluggers, 19 seasons, 10 ASG, 1B (13)-DH (3)-LF (2)-3B (1), led league RS 5x, TB 4x, SLG & OPS 3x, HR 2x, H 2B RBI OBP 1x, 8 postseasons, 3 pennants. 2 WSC (.323/.431/.599). 5 hits, 4 runs, 3 HR & 6 RBI in Game of 2011 WS. Currently 15th all time H with 3202 (117 from 10th), 7th 2B, 6th HR 656 (4 behind Mays), T4th RBI (11 to catch ARod), 5th TB, 5th extra bass hits, 2nd IBB.
100.8 / 87.7 WAR
81.3 JAWS
.388 wOBA
144 wRC+
147 OPS+
There have been 52 first ballot Hall of Fame players (+5 from the initial 1936 class), and along with Miguel Cabrera this guy is a mortal lock for it 5 years after he retires. The generational power hitter of the first decade of the millennium, incredible production.
First 11 seasons (9 ASG) in StL averaged 40-121-.328/.420/.617. Led NL in WAR 5 straight 2005-09 while winning his 3 MVPs. After his 3rd season signed an 8 year, $116M deal with Cardinals. Many consider him the second best Cardinals position player in the postwar era behind Musial.
Pujols is in the top 10 in several Cardinals' statistics. He is second to Musial in doubles (455), home runs (445) and RBI (1,329). He is seventh in games (1,705), seventh in batting average (.328), third in runs scored (1,291, behind Musial and Brock), and fourth in hits (2,073, behind Musial, Brock and Hornsby). He also is in the top 10 in several single-season Cardinals' records.
Has only made 1 ASG in his 8 years with Angels (he signed a 10-year, $254M FA contract in 2011-12 offseason.) Hasn’t hit .300 in his last 9 seasons or SLG .500 his last 7; still career .300/.549, and while in L.A. he has added 4 100-RBI seasons to his MLB record 14 100-RBI seasons.
6’3”, muscular 235, at his peak was the rare combination of contact hitter with raw power. He is the first player with 650+ doubles and homers. Currently the oldest player in the AL.
Signature moment: 2-run homer off Verlander Game 1 2006 WS
FINAL THOUGHTS: Hasn’t been as productive on the second mega contract. Lots of Hall of Famers peak and then tail off for a decade or more. Great peak and a good compiler.
6. (11 points) CF Mike Trout
HE WILL OWN EVERY RECORD BY THE TIME HE IS DONE. (maybe)
RotY, MVP 3x, 7 Silver Sluggers, 8 Seasons, 8 ASG, CF (8). All time ranks: 6th MVP Shares, 7th Silver Sluggers (T3rd OF), 8th OPS, 9th SLG, 21st OBP, career .305 BA. Led league in R 4x, OBP 4x, SLG 3x, BB 3x, RBI TB & SB 1x. 1 postseason (.083/.267/.333).
72.8 / 73.4 WAR
69.2 JAWS
.419 wOBA
172 wRC+
176 OPS+
SEE Griffey, Jr. He’s been the best player 8 years running and has a good chance to be the G.o.A.T. We’re not there yet but that’s his trajectory. Surreal how good he is right now.
In 8 full seasons, #1 WAR 7x and 2nd 1x. MVP runner up 4x. No GGs but 2012 Wilson overall DPotY and 4 excellent Total Zone Fielding seasons. Biggest hole is lack of postseason experience/success.
One of the best young players in MLB history. Hopefully he stays healthy and keeps up his great career. Superb athlete who does everything well.
Mike Trout Career Highlights
FINAL THOUGHTS: Has already proven his greatness. The legacy will depend on staying healthy, productive and winning a championship.
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BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Back tomorrow with the last two tiers & the Top 5.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Lol - no, just saying there's a ton of points left. I think there could still be some wild swings. I think there's still 8 "wildcard" categories left - 3 greatest moments, 4 best teams and 1 best Super Bowl - 5 of which can be really tough (SB, best soccer team, 3 greatest moments). Our gb @hagmania has maybe the toughest judging job of them all.
Two more thoughts:
- @BobbyLayne - dude is killing it with the writeups
- recommendation to @timschochet or anyone else who ever does one of these again - definitely either make a ruling on best soccer team and make it national teams or club teams or just break it out in to two. I think we collectively screwed the pooch on that one. Impossible to judge with the way we drafted it.
timschochet
Footballguy
Yeah that’s good advice. My bad, I don’t follow soccer enough so it didn’t occur to me.