Mr Anonymous
Footballguy
Bucks still undefeated this season when Giannis, Middleton, and Holiday all play
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2021-22 NBA Thread: Bill Simmons furiously recording 2.5 hour long pod about how Boston is still better than Golden State (1 Viewer)
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Deamon
Footballguy
Major
Footballguy
Wow. Can't recall someone being that heated since maybe the Artest fight. At least, Westbrook gave me a chuckle: https://twitter.com/GHETTOGEEKTV/status/1462582106090000386/photo/1
DJackson10
Footballguy
Can ya blame him. Stewart was playing physical all game and LeFlop overreacted as usual. That's why I've said for yrs teams need to play Lebron Physical. Thibs knew this in CHI and had a good team that could be physical with Lebronand not back down. Too many teams just back down from physicality these days.
DJackson10
Footballguy
Also If I'm coaching against Lebron I'm calling a no easy layups rule. Hard would them legally at the rim where you aren't getting a flagrant. You gonna foul make it worth it and make sure they can't get the lay up. Lebron has always been frustrated by these sorts of plays and why I've always questioned if he could've played under Jordan Rules given how adamant he gets with such small physical stuff in a game.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Typical Lebron. Gets emotional, throws elbow, then goes to apologize to avoid getting his ### kicked. Then backpedaled out of the camera view.
Emotional. Fragile. Dumb.
Emotional. Fragile. Dumb.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Idon't think it was emotional at all. Typiically, the guy in second position will battle the guyu in first position for the rebound. Stewart caught him off guard and was driving him out with an arm bar. A normal response to an arm bar, or handcheck, is to chop it. Because Stewart was getting low and driving him out, the alignment on the chop was well beyond vertical and the contact with face was an unfortunate result.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
Chris Mullin would get cooked non stop on defense in this era. He played when there was still a defined role for a specific small forward that was distinct from a shooting guard. He was definitely a high BBIQ player and his shot was lethal, but he would likely have been forced into a specialist role. He had uncanny shot selection though. He always took the right shot.
Mitch Richmond would have been the most valuable. He was the one who could actually play defense. He was criminally underrated most of his career. The Billy Owens trade made absolutely zero sense.
Tim Hardaway was a low BBIQ player. He also was a zero on defense. That being said he could get to the rim consistently and figured out how to be a three point threat late in his career. Could Hardaway be a lead guard in today's game? Part of that era was a general lack of real rim protection. Hardaway was not a great finisher at the rim relative to his ability to get to the cup. He would still be a starter in today's game but he would be a clear treadmill player. A type to help you win just enough to not be in a position to get lottery pick to help you win a ring.
The guy who would have been interesting from that era was Chris Gatling. He would have been an interesting Small Ball 5 in this era. There's an entire generation of "tweeners" from that timeline that might have carved a longer career in today's game. And what could have happened for Anderson Hunt if he had modern day coaching, specialization, nutrition, and training? Not as a superstar but as someone who could have carved out enough of a career to get an NBA pension.
One thing that does stand out through the test of time is Tim Grover. What was seen as controversial and cutting edge then, with such limited technology and understanding of training, seems completely common sense and rational today. Grover had to break down game film from VHS tapes with commercial grade equipment and stat track with pen and paper. The guy was a genius but will never get the true credit he deserves because it starts to lean in on Jordan's massive ego.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
That’s probably exactly with the refs saw when they gave him a technical two and kicked him out of the game.
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jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
I dunno if the ejections provide much to evaluate the way the game is officiated currently. In todays game—even accidental contact to the head often gets qualified as a flagrant 1. With that said—in my opinion—what Lebron did was clearly dirty. I also think that Stewart reacted to a dirty play in an even dirtier fashion. To me it’s just like the Morris and Jokic situation a few weeks back. Both guys could have and should have been better.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
It saddens me to say this is the first time I think I’ve ever disagreed with you but this time I do on all counts.
You put your hands on me and I’m putting mine on you.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
Basketball is a physical contact sport. I played basketball at a competitive level for 20 years—from about when i was 15-35. I was working 35 hours a week while in high school—so while I didnt play on the high school team—I would work out and scrimmage with the team when I could. After that—I played intramural at UC Irvine and after that I’d play in competitive leagues that feature college and ex-NBA players. Anytime I played—I knew that I could get hit—and when that happened—I knew that I could hit back— but within the course/parameters of the game. I’m not saying that Stewart didn’t have the right to be mad—or even face up Lebron. He DID NOT need to charge the court several times and to instigate what could have been a second malice in the palace. I said it before—Lebrons play was dirty. Stewarts reaction was also dirty.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
I don't really want to "big time" you here, but what you described is nowhere near "a competitive level". Without a coach controlling your team and practices every day, without nationally organized leagues and nationally organized officials you are talking apples and oranges. The standards and rules of conduct are not the same. I've played small college and I've played in those pro-am type competitive leagues and they are almost two different sports.
trader jake
Footballguy
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Major
Footballguy
Curious what was said that really set him off. Seemed like he was just going to take it until Lebron said something slick.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
Why? it's a physical sport. The instigator should be the only one punished in these IMO. And I mean instigator by who made the non-basketball play. Lebron punched the guy for boxing him out. Morris went overboard on the intentional foul., though that one is less obvious who to blame. But if someone wants to defend themselves, I'm all for it. That's not the way the NBA or most sports see it, but it's my opinion. Do something to me not within the context of the game and I'm coming for you. Maybe that's years of being a white kid growing up at hood basketball courts. Gotta fight back or you're just gonna be picked on more.
trader jake
Footballguy
Agreed. The player that initiates the dirty play should receive the worse punishment. In football, if a player grabs someone's facemask and pulls them to the ground they shouldn't get an offsetting penalty when the other guy gets off the ground and pushes him back. Ditto with the fines received.
In the LeBron / Stewart fiasco LeBron should be the one to receive the worse punishment and fine...if Stewart had gone to his bench after the initial dust-up and 'hold me back' action ended. After that 30 seconds or so after the incident elapsed he started his own thing. To me that's where Stewart should get hit with the much bigger fine and he should be rightfully suspended. Professional sports leagues can't have a player that unhinged, for that period of time, that long after the incident that started it occurred.
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Not sure if it was something LeBron said - more likely it was Stewart seeing how much he was bleeding and getting more pissed off about it.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Bronetta's been reminding people of his superiority fuhevah - how could you not if you are indeed that superior - but now he's a renaissance man he dont trust that like he's supposed to. perfect time to run into a guy named Beef Stew...
GordonGekko
Footballguy
LBJ hit Stewart when he was not looking. It was a clear intentional cheap shot.
Beef Stew wanted a fight straight up. It's not like LBJ didn't know who was coming or why it was going to happen. While I understand why the NBA will need to punish Beef Stew, he was also defending his boundaries. If he lets one player punk him , he's sending the message that all player can punk him and his teammates.
With Morris and Jokic, Morris blindsided Jokic. Then Jokic hit Morris in the back. It would have been better if Jokic told Morris to turn around and then clocked him in the face. But he knew that would get him a long suspension while a back shove would only get him maybe one game.
Part of the reason LBJ is so angry all the time is the same reason that Harden is getting testy and why Dwayne Wade and Kobe Bryant went ballistic so often at the end of their careers, they stopped getting unlimited favorable calls from the refs. At some point, new superstar players usurp you and there are only so many "star" calls to be given out in any game.
A lot of this also factors into your reputation in general. Goran Dragic, PJ Tucker and Jef Hornacek have all come out previously and said the Morris twins were hated by the refs in Phoenix and it was legitimately a massive problem because the refs took it out on the entire roster. There other issue no one wants to discuss is lots of African Americans players are clearly racist and much more aggressive and hostile towards Euro players.
If Grant Hill had punched someone out, I don't know what the refs would do back then. Because the perception would be if Hill put someone down, they probably deserved it because Hill doesn't have that kind of negative reputation as a cheap shot artist.
Lots of people in the NBA despise LBJ. Walk off the court with 5 minutes left in a game and abandon your teammates and you'll get a reputation of being a punk.
Would LBJ have hit Nik Pekovic like that? A real tough guy doesn't size anyone up. When it's time to fight, it's time to fight. One on one. One against 15. Other guy has 2 feet and 60 pounds on you. Doesn't matter. A real tough guy in the NBA would hit Pekovic if he deserved it. Or anyone really.
The last thing is in this kind of culture, Beef Stew will be respected for what he did. Maybe not publicly. But people know now he'll fight for his team and if you want a piece of him, you are going to have to face all of him all the time.
Major
Footballguy
Yo Mama
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I don't remember seeing anything in here about the Sixers list of 30 players that they would be willing to trade Ben for. Essentially, they won't move Simmons unless they get a Top 30 player back (and potentially more). It's expected that the list only has multi-time All Stars and All NBA players on it. And apparently they are willing to wait it out, even if it takes up to 4 years to facilitate a trade. Mind you, it's pretty likely the players on their list are not available (and won't be). It's like they want $1.25 on a dollar IF Ben were still playing and a peak performer. Is he even worth 0.50 on the dollar these days? PHI refuses to consider that Simmons is not considered a plus asset right now (and most teams are concerned he's toxic). Do they actually think that his value is going to go up with him not playing? How long will they be willing pay him not to play (or fine him for not playing and the PA gets involved)?
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
They are not paying him right now. Their position is show up and play and use best efforts, per contract, or waste up to 4-years of prime and wealth.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Which is why I said at some point he will file a grievance and the player's association will step in. He will get his own doctor to say he mentally can't play while the Sixers will get the team doctor to say that he can. The unpaid total and fines could add up quickly and make things even more tense and problematic. Then they'll probably discuss some sort of settlement in order to get a deal done.
It still doesn't change that the Sixers get no production from him when he doesn't play (while Simmons currently gets no money to stay away). And it also doesn't change that Simmons value is not going to go up any if he is not playing or practicing. In the meantime, their record is pretty meh without him (or assets to replace him).
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Yea, I have said from the beginning that once mental health came in (or when he comes back and half-asses it) that this would end up in arbitration. I almost think that is what the NBA wants.
The Sixers record was good without Simmons until half the team got COVID.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
While basketball is a physical sport—basketball at organized levels (especially at the NBA level) is also a professional sport. This is not MMA. NBA basketball does not condone vigilante justice. As a man—-if somebody cheap shots me on the street—they are inviting me to hit back them back—but nowhere within the framework of the NBA is that justified. The refs saw the foul—blew the whistle—and they rightfully kicked out Lebron for a dirty play. This is not street ball—there are kids watching that game—and they didn’t need to see . Stewart become totally unhinged—have to get restrained by refs/trainers/his teammates—and he still tried to bust through. One of the trainers got knocked down in an attempt to restrain him—which is not on Lebron. I’ve played in leagues before where any aggressive action is grounds for ejection and entire teams being banned and forfeited regardless of who starts the aggression. I’ve been on a team that got kicked out of a tournament because of my teammates shoved a dude after the dude purposely bridged him while he was going up for a layup. Benches cleared and both teams were forfeited from the tournament.
Both Stewart and Jokic responded in a dirty fashion. Jokic was not “defending” himself. He got fouled hard and cheaply—and Morris was walking away. Jokic was no longer in danger and in need of “defending himself”. He as a larger man hit a guy whose back was completely to him—which is the epitome of a cheap shot. If he didn’t want it to be a cheap shot—he should have tapped Morris on the shoulder—and once he turned around—then decked him. In both of the Jokic and Stewart situations—the refs blew whistles and flagrants/ejections were coming for the instigating players. Neither Jokic and Stewart were forced to “defend” themselves as the officials were well on their way to doing that.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
The conduct and standards for NBA players is higher than that of pro-am and small college players. Show me where in the NBA rule book it says that a player can participate in vigilante justice in regards to a cheap shot? NBA players get paid millions of dollars to be professional. Stewart rushing back on the court to attack James several times after his team, trainers/officials were restraining him is just as wrong/dirty as Lebrons play. The refs ejected Lebron—they had it right—Stewart forced the refs to eject him by his actions. I understand why Stewart was mad—but he went about it in a very unprofessional fashion.
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
Lebron 1 game. Beef Stew 2 games.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
GordonGekko
Footballguy
JJ Stokes was drafted as the heir apparent to Jerry Rice during the end of the classic 49ers dynasty. SF spent two first round picks to move up twenty spots to take Stokes right after they toasted the Chargers for a ring. He was touted and examined and lauded and celebrated even before he took his first snap.
When the 49ers played the Broncos in 1997, ( lots of legacy between the two teams at that point, Shanahan was the offensive coordinator for that 94 championship team and he took Ed McCaffrey with him) Bill Romanowski, who had won rings as a Niners linebacker, spit in the face of JJ Stokes.
Stokes just walked away. Didn't fight at all. In the press he said he wouldn't be that kind of player. Romo, known for being out of control most of the time, was fined 7500 dollars. Stokes had his owner, his head coach, his teammates, his position coach and all the rest of the NFL and announcers defend him and say he did the right thing in public.
In private, they knew he was a punk #####. If Vern Schillinger was a long snapper somewhere in the NFL, everyone privately would believe JJ Stokes would be first in line to be his prag. Move over Beecher, it's time to stoke that new fire for Vern.
Everyone smiled in the 49ers front office, already disappointed in Stokes and understood what success he had was due to being surrounded by basically an All Star team of players, sought immediately to replace him as Terrell Owens emerged. They hung onto him a little longer than they wanted when Jerry Rice got injured.
You can label a fighter as "too passionate" but a punk ### ##### is just going to get treated like just another prag inside of Oz.
I don't know where you were taught functional sports dynamics in terms of competition and the internal culture of a locker room, but if someone wants to fight you and puts their hands on you, you need to put them down. For yourself, your team, your franchise and your dignity. Or you can hold Schillinger's pocket in the yard.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
And. Ron artist was lying on a bench when a fan threw something at him and all hell broke out and it set back the Pacers franchise and the NBA for years. According to your logic—anytime a fan or a player insults/makes contact with a player—then that player has full reign to fight back. While that might happen in the street—it’s generally not tolerated in a world where the player is representing more than himself—he is representing the team he plays for, and the league he plays for. I’m not saying that Stewart had no right to be mad. Maybe he shoves lebron right back and then walks away—but if you are condoning him pushing his own teammates aside, pushing and knocking down his own training and coaching staff after several attempts to get back on the court—we can just agree to disagree. The league not only ejected Lebron—they also suspended him for a game. What Stewart did was stupid and dumb. If he finishes out that game—there’s a great chance the Pistons beat the Lakers. He put himself ahead of the team and the league—which is wrong.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
The purpose of that list is so teams who want Simmons can start the process to negotiate 3-4 team type trade scenarios with non 76ers teams and then present a package offer to Morey. It cuts out a lot of the work.
If Morey solicits trades, he is acknowledging he has little to no leverage in some ways and the price goes down. If Morey waits and others approach him, the price moves to the perception of what other teams think other interested teams are going to offer.
For example, if the Knicks want Simmons, a straight across trade won't likely work. I have a hard time seeing Morey wanting Julius Randle or Evan Fournier as salary matching type contracts in return. But if the Knicks know Bradley Beal is on that list, maybe they can try to mix in a trade negotiation with Washington to see if they and Philly can offer something together for Beal while Simmons goes to NY and something solid goes back to the Wizards.
The more teams involved in a mega trade, the better chance Morey has to get a better haul in terms of quantity.
Morey wants to pick from the best 3-4 team large trade offer he's presented instead of hunting for trades himself where he has to politic with not just multiple GMs, but also owners. This kind of large trade and with the kind of pieces being discussed are ownership level trades. I.E. Morey doesn't need to check in with his owner to trade off former UDFA Aaron Henry. However moving someone like Tobias Harris and taking back a different contract needs to be discussed.
This is not going to take four years. Everyone wants to avoid invoking the Chris Bosh Rule here because that opens up all kinds of other legal pitfalls and risks. However it looks like Rich Paul will keep up his idiot ways and there will be no choice left.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
I saw that Michael Porter Jr might miss the season with back issues again. That contract could be a huge weight on the Nuggets.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Compiling a list doesn't change much of anything. The Sixers were asking for the sun and the moon when they tried piecing together a direct trade. It doesn't sound like they have budged in that regard. IMO, even with multiple teams involved, the Sixers will have to load up the trade with THEIR OWN ASSETS and draft capital to GET RID of Simmons. Some team is going to end up with Ben and owe him most of $145 million. No one knows if he will play the role of good soldier or if he will flake out again and wig out. How much is it worth it to PHI to wipe their hands of Simmons? TBH, I don't see how they end up with a Top 30 player back without shipping off other decent players and picks . . .ie, they are in damage control mode.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
It's a long reach to be this pedantic about what I'm clearly talking about ( defending your boundaries and dignity as a competitor) and you talking about fighting fans in the stands.
I'm not the one here basking in the nostalgia of some dad bod Brian Scalabrine salad days in some parking lot court in the middle of nowhere. Maybe you hit a jumper once over Bimbo Coles once as see it as divinity telling you that you understand the nuances of the combative elements of competitive high level sports.
I'm sure at some point in my life I played a pickup game and hit a double to drive in Jamie Quirk. That doesn't make me the next Theo Epstein with a deep aura of John Sickels.
Listen, we can just agree to disagree here. If LeBron James doesn't want a real fight, he shouldn't be hitting other guys in the face with clearly intended cheap shots.
LBJ decided to play stupid games and Beef Stew was ready and willing to make sure LeMao was going to win some stupid prizes. How you want to passive aggressively lay this all on Stewart is beyond me.
LeMao
LeQuit
LeCCP
LeCrabDribble
LeFlop
LeCoast
LeRogaine
LeGMingLikeIsaiahThomas1
and now
LeStewed
GordonGekko
Footballguy
Under the Chris Bosh Rule is a provision for the league to rescind a contract off of a franchises payroll.
But here's the caveat. In order to still get paid via insurance money, then you need to to sign off on saying you have some condition that means you are unable to play basketball again period for the rest of your life.
This also forwards the responsibility away from the NBA, the owners, Adam Silver, the 76ers, Josh Harris, Daryl Morey and the leagues medical review board and to the insurance companies.
To get those paychecks, Simmons will have to show he's taking his medication and going into therapy and get a formal diagnosis to whatever condition he has or claims. Every player who signs a contract in the NBA also signs under the standards laid out by the CBA negotiated by the NBPA, Michelle Roberts and the league administration. The problem is Simmons only started to claim a mental health condition after all attempts to force a trade were exhausted. He could have a condition. But he might not. If he does not and he's cooking this situation, he and Rich Paul could go to prison. Point to note Rich Paul is an idiot. Without LBJ he'd still be selling jerseys out of the back of his car trunk. Also during the Biogenesis scandal, LBJ was implicated and the NBA had to cover it up because Paul was caught writing a personal check for PEDS.
Do you think Simmons is going to get away with insurance fraud of this magnitude when his primary think tank schemer is a guy whose rational judgment makes him believe that the best way to keep the juice flowing for a generational level professional athlete is to do the dirt with a personal check?
We are now talking high level crime being conducted in the IQ range of Benny Fazio and Jackie Aprile Jr.
DJackson10
Footballguy
gruecd said:
Wasn't a philly fan so doesn't qualify as news worthy apparently
DJackson10
Footballguy
Anarchy99 said:
Lebron was barely worth Kelly Oubre straight up when KO JR got traded. Thats the type of value Ben had before Paul destroyed any left. Philly will be lucky to get anything of value unless they package something valuable with him. At this point Sixers should just cut their loses. Play hard ball with Paul and see if he blinks first. Plus a lot of people are doubting Bens mental illness claims here. He definitely has something mental wrong with him but it's more of an ego thing then something he needs medical help for.
DJackson10
Footballguy
Anarchy99 said:
That's their problem for not trading him sooner and being thick headed about him and Embiid playing together. I was touting how the Sixers needed to trade him two years ago and fleece someone before the league caught on. I know different people not but the org continues to pull the same bull#### bad moves constantly. No different then when they waited too long to trade AI. They were more concerned of butts in seats rather then getting decent value back. By the time the attendance wasn't a good defense for keeping him AI's trade value had gone down and he was on the decline.
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