Toby2ElectricBugaloo
Footballguy
By my count Curry would still be one title and three Finals MVPs behind LeBron in those categories if he wins those things.
YWIA
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2021-22 NBA Thread: Bill Simmons furiously recording 2.5 hour long pod about how Boston is still better than Golden State (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Capella
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By my count Curry would still be one title and three Finals MVPs behind LeBron in those categories if he wins those things.
YWIA
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Wouldn't they both have 4 titles? And Lebron's last one was in the bubble . . . .
Toby2ElectricBugaloo
Footballguy
You are correct, they would be even on titles. My mistake.
Yes, LeBron's last title was won in "the bubble." That does not affect the count.
Capella
Footballguy
Capella
Footballguy
You keep bringing this up but I hate to inform you the bubble title counts. I don’t even know why you think it wouldn’t, everybody played by the same rules, I thought only trolls on Twitter were trying that. No respectable basketball person bothers.
Bron has more finals appearances, more MVPs, better defensive player, much higher career PER (2nd all-time vs 20th), pretty much better everything. Maybe curry cracks top-10 one day but he’ll never be close to Bron.
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scoobus
Footballguy
So he'd tie him in titles(which is team-based), and be way behind him in everything else. Would love to hear an argument for this.
Capella
Footballguy
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Jayrod
Footballguy
Yeah, not even close.
LeBron is basically #2 right now. Some old timers have him below the likes of Kareem, Russell, Wilt or Magic. Some kids think he is #1 above MJ.
If he wins a title and wins Finals MVP, I personally would put Curry at like #10-12, but still below the likes of Kobe/Shaq/Olajuwon. While Curry is probably the greatest shooter of all time and a more than capable passer, his defense has always been average to below average. I think the current guy who I would rank Curry over if he wins and gets a Finals MVP but keep just below if he loses is KD.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
I was being facetious. However, I do think Curry should be higher on all-time lists than some may have him. His play-style has changed the game -- and he has the hardware and records to go with it.
Regarding the bubble -- I watched almost every game that was televised. And I am extremely grateful that the NBA did the whole thing. But the play was subpar down there for the most part, and it just seemed that some teams/players had advantages that others did not and it mattered. That season feels lost to me.
Regarding the bubble -- I watched almost every game that was televised. And I am extremely grateful that the NBA did the whole thing. But the play was subpar down there for the most part, and it just seemed that some teams/players had advantages that others did not and it mattered. That season feels lost to me.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
I like Lebron perfectly fine. Never in trouble. Genius level basketball mind. Gives to the community. Good dad. All time great.
I don't think he is #1 of all-time. Maybe not even #2. I have come around more on Kobe as well. But Lebron's personality really seems to have taken a turn for the worse since moving to LA for some reason.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
No way. If Curry retired right now he is top 15ish all time. If he wins this title and wins finals MVP he is top 10ish. He would have to go off the next 3 to 5 years to crack the top 5.
Lebron is arguably the goat. Even if you only polled the biggest Lebron haters ever he is still a lock for top 5 no matter what he does from here on out.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
From the end of the game Sunday night until the start of the game Thursday we pretty much had 4 full days without a game. These finals better be awesome to make up for this.
Navin Johnson
Footballguy
These stats really lend themselves to variance when you consider MIA going 5-37 on open 3's in Game 5.
Capella
Footballguy
Yea I think Lebron is #2 but I think there is an argument for Kareem and Magic as well. I wouldn’t agree with it but I could get it.
Sorry for misunderstanding you on the Curry thing. I spend too much time on Twitter where everybody is actually insane.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I think it was Brian Windhorst of ESPN that answered this best. There was a discussion on whether Curry would be equal to LeBron with another title (and whether he could somehow surpass James in the pantheon of all time players). Windhorst answered that Curry would be in contention for the next best player in the LeBron James era of basketball.
I also hate to agree with Nick Wright on anything, but he suggested people should have to name names in their Top 5 or Top 10 lists when they suggest PLAYER X is in that group. Bottom line, there are a lot of great players near the top of the basketball heap. Michael, LeBron, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Wilt, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Robertson, Durant, Malone, and multiple other guys could be in the Top 10-15. Which players DON'T make the Top 10 if Curry is considered a Top 10 player of all time?
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Let's assume that Curry has no major injuries and they win this title he is finals MVP and he adds 4 more all NBA selections the rest of his career all while being the Warriors best player and they are one of handful of teams to be in the mix for the next 4 to 6 years. Not saying this will happen, just a what if.
On your list I think he clearly passes Malone, Robertson and Durant and is on par with Kobe, Shaq and Duncan.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Obviously, we don't know what we don't know. Curry could go on to win 5 more titles and 3 more MVPs. We can't fully judge anyone until that player's career is completely over. (Similarly, we don't know what other players will do. KD could win 3 more titles and multiple MVPs.)
While Curry is a better player, I think a more conservative projection would be similar to Ray Allen from age 34 on. Allen played 5 seasons, his scoring dropped into the teens, and he won a title very late in his career. If we give this year's title to Curry, he would end up with 5 titles and probably see his career scoring average dip to 22 or 23 ppg. Maybe Steph would be considered in the Top 10 or 12? I've heard a few people suggest that with another title (ie winning in two weeks), Curry could be Top 5. I find that one tough to buy into (ie, who ISN'T in the Top 5 then?).
But for the initial question, I don't see Curry in his mid- to late- 30's being able to surpass LeBron's career. I mean, sure, if we want to go crazy with unlikely scenarios where Curry ends up with 8 titles and 7 MVPs, I just don't see Steph leap frogging LeBron.
Tau837
Footballguy
Top 12 for me:
1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem
11. Robertson
12. Kobe
I find it difficult without the passage of time to reasonably assess where current players like Curry, Giannis, and Durant should be ranked. But I can say that I wouldn't see any of them passing Kobe yet, which means none of them are top 12 for me.
1. Jordan
2. Lebron
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem
11. Robertson
12. Kobe
I find it difficult without the passage of time to reasonably assess where current players like Curry, Giannis, and Durant should be ranked. But I can say that I wouldn't see any of them passing Kobe yet, which means none of them are top 12 for me.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Subpar in bubble. Makes me want to go back and see what I observed because my memory is that it was some of the highest level seen in some time, with players have basically zero distractions.
Jayrod
Footballguy
- MJ
- Lebron
- Kareem
- Wilt
- Russell
- Bird
- Magic
- Duncan
- Shaq
- Kobe
- Hakeem
- Moses
- Robertson
- Giannis
- Garnett
- KD
- Curry
- Dirk
- Dr. J
- Barkley
- Malone
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Tau837
Footballguy
I disagree. The regular season and the playoffs are not the same. In the regular season, these 15 players combined to attempt 661 3-pointers for the Celtics:
- Dennis Schroder
- Josh Richardson
- Aaron Nesmith
- Romeo Langord
- Sam Hauser
- Juancho Hernangomez
- Jabari Parker
- Brodric Thomas
- Malik Fitts
- Nik Stauskas
- Enes Freedom
- Matt Ryan
- Luke Kornet
- Burno Fernando
- Kelan Martin
Jayrod
Footballguy
Nesmith, Kornet, Fitts, & Stauskus could get a 1-2 3's up in a blowout. Hauser has had some shoulder injury, so I don't think he'll even play then.
But point stands.
You are looking at Tatum, Brown, Smart, Horford, Grant, Pritchard, White & Theis (Robert Williams shot 1 3-pt in regular season and 1 in the post season, missing both). Those 8 guys have shot 36.6% (1.10 ppp) for the playoffs and 35.9% (1.08 ppp) in the regular season.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
Since you brought up MVP's . . . (If a player was a unanimous MVP, he would earn 1 Award Share. If a player got half the votes, he would get 0.5 of an Award Share (even if that player was named MVP).
01 - LeBron James - 8.815
02 - Michael Jordan - 8.115
03 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 6.105
04 - Larry Bird - 5.612
05 - Magic Johnson - 5.104
06 - Bill Russell - 4.748
07 - Shaquille O'Neal - 4.380
08 - Karl Malone - 4.296
09 - Tim Duncan - 4.278
10 - Kobe Bryant - 4.202
11 - Wilt Chamberlain - 4.152
12 - James Harden - 3.656
13 - Julius Erving - 3.551
14 - Kevin Durant - 3.210
15 - David Robinson - 3.123
16 - Giannis Antetokounmpo - 2.905
17 - Moses Malone - 2.854
18 - Mel Daniels - 2.795
19 - Kevin Garnett - 2.753
20 - Bob Pettit - 2.671
21 - Stephen Curry - 2.659
22 - Hakeem Olajuwon - 2.610
23 - Oscar Robertson - 2.482
24 - Charles Barkley - 2.437
25 - Steve Nash - 2.429
26 - Nikola Jokić - 2.064
27 - Jerry West - 2.0212
28 - Rick Barry - 1.821
29 - Connie Hawkins - 1.819
30 - Dirk Nowitzki - 1.810
Jayrod
Footballguy
This just made me realized I totally forgot about the Admiral. I'd put him at #18 (below KD & Curry) and bump Dirk, Dr. J, Barkley & Malone each down one spot.
Jayrod
Footballguy
This clearly includes ABA MVP's as well, since Mel only played one year in the NBA and Hawkins won an ABA MVP.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
Regular season vs. Playoffs
Boston Playoffs
Offensive Rating 111.8
Defensive Rating 105.1
Net Rating 6.7
Pace 95.92
Boston Regular Season
Offensive Rating 113.6
Defensive Rating 106.2
Net Rating 7.4
Pace 97.26
Golden State Playoffs
Offensive Rating 116.1
Defensive Rating 111.0
Net Rating 5.1
Pace 98.44
Golden State Regular Season
Offensive Rating 112.1
Defensive Rating 106.6
Net Rating 5.5
Pace 98.74
Boston plays slower, so if the numbers hold, the Warriors might see 3 fewer possessions per game.
Boston Playoffs
Offensive Rating 111.8
Defensive Rating 105.1
Net Rating 6.7
Pace 95.92
Boston Regular Season
Offensive Rating 113.6
Defensive Rating 106.2
Net Rating 7.4
Pace 97.26
Golden State Playoffs
Offensive Rating 116.1
Defensive Rating 111.0
Net Rating 5.1
Pace 98.44
Golden State Regular Season
Offensive Rating 112.1
Defensive Rating 106.6
Net Rating 5.5
Pace 98.74
Boston plays slower, so if the numbers hold, the Warriors might see 3 fewer possessions per game.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Since we are talking all time greats, I feel obligated to mention that Dirk is usually grossly underrated in these conversations.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Feels like most have him top 15-20 now, which seems about right. I think he is undoubtedly the 2nd best of his generation, way behind LeBron, but ahead of Durant for sure. Giannis could catch him, but not sure the Bucks can keep winning titles without a great number 2.
The problem with Curry being top 10 is, who are you taking out? Curry is awesome, but even if they win it this year, I just don't see him being ahead of Jordan, LeBron, Bird, Kareem, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Duncan, Bryant and Shaq. And then there are guys like Hakeem, Dr J and Oscar. It's a logjam. Sadly, as more and more people try to jam Curry into the top 10, I feel that Bird is going to be demoted more and more as times goes on, which will be a travesty.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Instinctive
Footballguy
Had the same thought, but seeming him fairly accurately rated here. I think he's clearly in the top 20, and above guys like Barkley/Malone, but I have a really hard time putting him above, say, Oscar or Shaq or Kobe or other guys around the 12-15 range.
I do think I'd have him over the Admiral and Garnett. There's something to be said for being top 10 all time in points and w/r/t Garnett specifically it always felt like Dirk owned him. Not sure if that feeling matches reality.
the moops
Footballguy
I will give you Middleton. But the Heats top 3 pt shooter was Robinson who is unplayable and Herro who was 1/14 in the three games he played.
Charlie Harper
Footballguy
I was thinking Herro and Lowry since Robinson has fallen out of the rotation in the playoffs. Even the games Lowry played he clearly wasn't healthy.
The series against a banged up Heat is what gives me hope as a Dubs fan that the Celtics defense can be beaten.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Miami's offensive success was based on fast breaks, Adebayo abusing anyone besides Rob Williams and Butler attacking the midrange and shooting FT's. I don't know how much of that Golden State can replicate.Charlie Harper said:
Their best bet is to get turnovers and run out, get the ball to Green at the high post as much as possible and hope to get lost with basket cuts and off ball movement, although I'm sure Ime is working on that last part in practice/film.
Capella
Footballguy
Capella
Footballguy
A lot of players have said they respect that title more than any other one due to the difficulty of being in the bubble. I can’t think of one advantage anybody had over another, they played on the same exact courts and had the same exact access to everything. Trying to discredit that title is odd to me.
Tau837
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
Right or wrong, the one thing he has over both of those guys is a ring and Finals MVP. And it was an impressive championship at that, over LeBron's Heat and he was the clear cut alpha on that team.
Honestly, I forget that Malone won 2 MVPs, though. I think the case over Barkley is clear cut, but Malone is probably the guy who gets underrated a bit. Then again, I take into account the boost guys get from their teammates and Malone benefitted from Stockton a great deal. Dirk played with Nash before his prime and Kidd after.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Tau837
Footballguy
I don't think the case over Barkley is clear cut. Maybe I am in the minority.
- Yes, Dirk has a ring and Barkley doesn't. The one time Barkley made the Finals, he played better than Dirk did in either of his two trips. Unfortunately for Barkley, he faced Jordan's Bulls. Dirk had it easier.
- Barkley's advanced stats are generally better (PER, TS%, WS/48, BPM). Dirk has an advantage in some counting stats, but he also played a lot more games.
- Barkley made 1st team All NBA 5 times to Dirk's 4.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
As a massive KG dork I would have him below Dirk.
KG could do everything, and was probably a better regular season player than Dirk, but Dirk could take over in a way KG never really could.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
If I was drafting a team I'd take KG over Dirk, but ranking their careers I go Dirk.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Instinctive
Footballguy
Not much - just when I was in grad school one of my good friends was his friend from the sweet 16 run, so he'd pop down for pickup a couple times a year.
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
Trying to claim there were teams / players with advantages, in a bubble no less, is a reach.
Was that Instinctive that said that? The OU guy?
Instinctive
Footballguy
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
This was your quote:
"But the play was subpar down there for the most part, and it just seemed that some teams/players had advantages that others did not and it mattered. That season feels lost to me."
Instinctive
Footballguy
Instinctive
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
The only minor 2 things you could even complain about the bubble was, no home court advantage for the teams that had the best regular season and everyone had 3 or 4 month off before the playoffs started so it might have given a slight edge to the more injury prone or older teams to get fresh again.
These are minor things though, because everyone had to deal with no home court and everyone got the rest. There is always luck in sports, this was just different luck because of the circumstances.
These are minor things though, because everyone had to deal with no home court and everyone got the rest. There is always luck in sports, this was just different luck because of the circumstances.
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