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2022-23 NBA Thread: “you’ll never let me down like the Heat did”, Miami fan says to giant pile of cocaine (1 Viewer)

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Just pure speculation on my part, but I remember him embracing the villain role during that run to the conference finals a couple of years ago. I wonder if he embraced it a little too much and got a little full of himself.

NBA's marketing pushed the villain narrative on Trae Young.

He committed the sin of playing above the league HQ's viewpoint of his "station" in the overall pecking order. When you are the key engine behind upsets that drives out other more 'marketable' players out of the playoff picture, then you will start to get problems from the league. The Atlanta Hawks have dismal attendance and non existent national appeal as a franchise. So NBA HQ kept pushing all it's resources to make Young a "bad guy" and literally changed the rules to limit his impact.

Nike spent a billion dollars plus on LeBron James. They want a return on that massive investment. It's the same reason Kevin Durant was given so much media hostility within the prepackaged narratives in major sports outlets, because the league needed the Warriors to be the "bad guys" so LeBron James can always stay the hero. It's very difficult to paint Steph Curry as a bad guy. And Draymond Green has no real scandal, he's just sort of a motor mouth. So the focus was on Durant as some kind of traitor.

Steph Curry spurned Nike, so he gets hard a lot on the court. He doesn't get the same super star calls as many other "elite players" who have massive shoe deals.

It's always about the money. When Linsanity was happening, the constant battering and mugging and heavy hits on Jeremy Lin had to stop. David Stern made it stop. This undrafted guy, basically a rookie, was an international sensation. Do you want him injured after some angry veteran jealous about the media attention suddenly kicks out Lin's knee during a game? How does that help you make more money when you want the league to expand into foreign markets? The foul calls that Lin got as a young player while attacking the rim were not the same as other players. Lin got a lot of clean calls. Other players would just have to take the hard contact and not get any calls because they aren't marketable enough.

If Jokic had Rihanna as his long time girlfriend and was seen all the time hanging out with Taylor Swift and Cardi B, what kind of league marketing do you think he would get? Because he really doesn't get the massive attention equaled out to his incredible play. Now imagine if he looked like Chris Hemsworth and have famous girlfriends.

You know what would help Trae Young? If he was Trae Young Winfrey. If his dad was former NBA player and his mom was Oprah Winfrey. You think the mainstream sports media is going to go take pot shots at the son of Oprah? Does Adam Silver want Oprah's legions of followers, especially the most devout, to start a campaign to denounce the NBA?

Here's the part that should make people think four times over about professional sports narratives. A male athlete with huge possible brand/marketing potential is simply more marketable as a family man. Married with kids. No scandals. A carefully curated image. ( Why do you think Tiger Woods and his major scandal ended up with him at a podium literally apologizing to his brand sponsors and not his wife to start?)

Got your girlfriend pregnant? Well if you want to keep that shoe deal, or not have problems in a future negotiation, that better change. That girlfriend better end up your wife very soon. And any potential "soon to be future" children out of wedlock? Well, quick , quiet and removed out of the picture is the advice a high profile agent will give his client.

You want to talk about "villains"? How about making a life decision based on keeping a shoe deal or not. Or keeping the numbers up on that shoe deal. What kind of scandal do you think that would create?

It's actually pretty hilarious at how the sports media portrays some players as "heroes" no matter what.

Does anyone think Cal Ripken Jr played that long and at that level with just a good attitude, lots of spinach and milk for dinner and wholesome family values?
 
Nate McMillan gets the axe. A few years ago, I thought the Hawks were such a young, ascending, exciting team. I'm not sure what the exactly the problem is. (Although I'm skeptical it was the coach.)
Maybe not, but I doubt he can be part of the solution.

It does seem like Trae is pretty difficult to build around on and off the court.

That conference finals run may have been the worst thing to happen to them because it accelerated their timeline and kind of forced them to sign McMillan when they weren’t quite ready to compete and weren’t getting much innovation from the coach.
I think Trae is who the cynics thought he was, and that one playoff run was a fluke on a couple of different levels. I’ll bet he gets traded in a year and a half.
 
I think Trae is who the cynics thought he was, and that one playoff run was a fluke on a couple of different levels. I’ll bet he gets traded in a year and a half.











"NBA referees will be trained to properly officiate the following actions used to draw fouls:

- Shooter launches/leans into defender at abnormal angle

- Shooter kicks leg at abnormal angle

- Offensive player abruptly veers off path (sideways/ backwards) into defender"



********


NBA HQ literally changed the rules on Trae Young. They didn't seem to mind the dirty rip throughs by Chris Paul for forever. Or LeBron James and his "crab dribble". Or all the countless years that Dwayne Wade and James Harden jumped into defenders with no real attempt made to try to finish near the rim.

It's close to impossible to stop a small speedy player with a huge first step on the perimeter when you also add in

- Above average handles
- Plus Plus extended three point range, which creates all kinds of gravity on the court
- Good play maker / Good BBIQ
- Ability to effectively use space in close contact
- Lethal in transition
- Innate ability to finish strong at the rim using a wide bag of tricks/savvy
- Good free throw shooter
- Relentless motor
- Able to consistently hit circus shots even with bad shot selection
- Is a strong fit in the modern "Space And Pace" style NBA game i.e. can excel in Pick And Roll, Catch And Shoot, Long Range Gunner Off The Dribble concepts

The rule change also was a silent announcement to all teams that their defenses could hit Trae Young much harder and have those turn into non calls.

NBA HQ literally jobbed him. He wasn't the kind of player they wanted to market around, and he was too lethal against teams and players they wanted to advance. So they literally changed the rules. How often does that happen? They did it for George Mikan. And a few others. But we are talkin HOF type players. There was no reason to change the rules except to selectively target Young for being too successful at gaming the advantages the league only wanted available for a select few others with big shoe deals.
 
Well, its time to get back at it after the All-Star break and settle the playoff spots. There have been a lot of shakeups and some teams have question marks. Here are my predictions for final standings:

WEST:
  1. Denver - that 5 game lead is huge and they are relatively healthy and should coast to the top spot.
  2. Grizzlies - I think they hang on here. I don't like them and think Ja is overrated, but they are still very very good.
  3. Suns - Durant makes them a contender and they were playing better without him already.
  4. Clippers - Healthy Kawhi and PG13 is still the best 1-2 punch on the wings (despite my BOS fandom).
  5. Kings - They are a good team, but I think they drop a bit once the two teams above get going.
  6. Mavericks - Tough draw for PHX in the first round, but I think there will be some Kyrie/Luka growing pains so they stay here.
  7. Warriors - This may be a stretch considering Curry is out right now, but "heart of a champion" and all that...
  8. Pelicans - Still pretty good even if Zion doesn't make it back anytime soon. If he comes back in a couple of weeks they stay at 7.
  9. Timberwolves - the Gobert experiment has been ungood, but they still have a boatload of talent
  10. Lakers - LeBron will do everything in his power to avoid being completely frozen out of the playoffs and Davis is a beast right now.
EAST:
  1. Bucks - Giannis is on a mission (again) and they were the best team in the NBA for the last several weeks.
  2. Celtics - If they get hot from 3 again they could retain the 1 seed but I don't think they do enough to hold off the Bucks.
  3. Sixers - Embiid is still the most unstoppable offensive player in the league and Harden is playing very well. Doc is the weak link.
  4. Cavaliers - They are capable of beating any of the above game to game, but I don't know if they win a series against any of them.
  5. Knicks - They are playing their best basketball right now, Randle is finally playing well again and Brunson is always solid.
  6. Heat - They have had a yo-yo season but still have Adebayo, Butler & HOF coach Spo plus they just added Love.
  7. Nets - I love, love Mikal Bridges' game but he's not a primary guy. They are a .500 team now and will likely fall a bit.
  8. Raptors - At full strength, this is a very talented team. I expect a decent run to the playoffs and give them the edge in the play-in.
  9. Hawks - Just fired their coach, which will probably give them a short term boost but they have issues building around Trae.
  10. Wizards - They didn't sell at the deadline and are pushing to make the playoffs, which I think they barely do here.
I thinks this leads to some good 1st round series in the West (could lose 2 title contenders in the first round). The East should be chalk until the 2nd round where any of the top 4 seeds have a shot to make the Finals. I think the top 3 in the East would be a favorite against whoever comes out of the West (unless Phoenix just clicks immediately and starts playing great as soon as Durant hits the floor).

Pretty excited about the next couple of months of basketball. :popcorn:
 
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He looks Lew Alcindorish to me, minus some upper-body strength


Ralph Sampson is the best comp imo
Ralph Sampson with handles and a three point shot

Ralph actually a had a nice touch from the perimeter and was more of a finesse player made to adapt to a Center focused league. I think if he was brought up in todays game, he'd have a similar skill set to Wemb. I recommend watching some of his college tape at Virginia. Dude was something else and ahead of his time.

and he had handles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxRUPDjKlU4
 

Ralph actually a had a nice touch from the perimeter and was more of a finesse player made to adapt to a Center focused league. I think if he was brought up in todays game, he'd have a similar skill set to Wemb. I recommend watching some of his college tape at Virginia. Dude was something else and ahead of his time.
I think wikkid said the exactly same thing about him in one of our draft threads.
 
Well, its time to get back at it after the All-Star break and settle the playoff spots. There have been a lot of shakeups and some teams have question marks. Here are my predictions for final standings:

WEST:
  1. Denver - that 5 game lead is huge and they are relatively healthy and should coast to the top spot.
  2. Grizzlies - I think they hang on here. I don't like them and think Ja is overrated, but they are still very very good.
  3. Suns - Durant makes them a contender and they were playing better without him already.
  4. Clippers - Healthy Kawhi and PG13 is still the best 1-2 punch on the wings (despite my BOS fandom).
  5. Kings - They are a good team, but I think they drop a bit once the two teams above get going.
  6. Mavericks - Tough draw for PHX in the first round, but I think there will be some Kyrie/Luka growing pains so they stay here.
  7. Warriors - This may be a stretch considering Curry is out right now, but "heart of a champion" and all that...
  8. Pelicans - Still pretty good even if Zion doesn't make it back anytime soon. If he comes back in a couple of weeks they stay at 7.
  9. Timberwolves - the Gobert experiment has been ungood, but they still have a boatload of talent
  10. Lakers - LeBron will do everything in his power to avoid being completely frozen out of the playoffs and Davis is a beast right now.
EAST:
  1. Bucks - Giannis is on a mission (again) and they were the best team in the NBA for the last several weeks.
  2. Celtics - If they get hot from 3 again they could retain the 1 seed but I don't think they do enough to hold off the Bucks.
  3. Sixers - Embiid is still the most unstoppable offensive player in the league and Harden is playing very well. Doc is the weak link.
  4. Cavaliers - They are capable of beating any of the above game to game, but I don't know if they win a series against any of them.
  5. Knicks - They are playing their best basketball right now, Randle is finally playing well again and Brunson is always solid.
  6. Heat - They have had a yo-yo season but still have Adebayo, Butler & HOF coach Spo plus they just added Love.
  7. Nets - I love, love Mikal Bridges' game but he's not a primary guy. They are a .500 team now and will likely fall a bit.
  8. Raptors - At full strength, this is a very talented team. I expect a decent run to the playoffs and give them the edge in the play-in.
  9. Hawks - Just fired their coach, which will probably give them a short term boost but they have issues building around Trae.
  10. Wizards - They didn't sell at the deadline and are pushing to make the playoffs, which I think they barely do here.
I thinks this leads to some good 1st round series in the West (could lose 2 title contenders in the first round). The East should be chalk until the 2nd round where any of the top 4 seeds have a shot to make the Finals. I think the top 3 in the East would be a favorite against whoever comes out of the West (unless Phoenix just clicks immediately and starts playing great as soon as Durant hits the floor).

Pretty excited about the next couple of months of basketball. :popcorn:

So the Lakers starting lineup of D-Lo, Lebron, Davis, Vanderbilt, and Beasley is going to get them into the playoffs/play-in?
 
538 gives the Lakers a 34% chance of making the playoffs (not play-in), so they are pretty bullish on them getting at least the 10th seed.
 

NBA HQ literally jobbed him. He wasn't the kind of player they wanted to market around, and he was too lethal against teams and players they wanted to advance. So they literally changed the rules. How often does that happen? They did it for George Mikan. And a few others. But we are talkin HOF type players. There was no reason to change the rules except to selectively target Young for being too successful at gaming the advantages the league only wanted available for a select few others with big shoe deals.
Malarkey.

They did it because it was unwatchable and against the spirit of the game and happening with increased frequency. They also took away the swing through as a shooting foul and that wasn't Young's move.

Ball handlers veering off into defenders should never have been allowed in the first place, but it became the standard practice to put that foul on the defense because they weren't in "legal guarding position". This was really just a clarification from the top down to make the game better, not punish Trae Young because they didn't like him. :tinfoilhat:
 
Man, if you ever wanted to trade a ton of draft picks and young players to get a one-dimensional all-nba center hoping that since he's the complete opposite of your other one-dimensional all-nba center and hope you can figure out how to make them fit together having one of them miss 50+ games is really not ideal.

In other words, effing KAT is STILL out.
 
Hmm, seems like the wagering thread is pretty deadzo.

Someone give me something to bet on. I'm in Vegas for the first time in many moons. 😁
 
Man, if you ever wanted to trade a ton of draft picks and young players to get a one-dimensional all-nba center hoping that since he's the complete opposite of your other one-dimensional all-nba center and hope you can figure out how to make them fit together having one of them miss 50+ games is really not ideal.

In other words, effing KAT is STILL out.
Has he really missed 50 games this year?
 
Man, if you ever wanted to trade a ton of draft picks and young players to get a one-dimensional all-nba center hoping that since he's the complete opposite of your other one-dimensional all-nba center and hope you can figure out how to make them fit together having one of them miss 50+ games is really not ideal.

In other words, effing KAT is STILL out.
Has he really missed 50 games this year?
Looks like he will. I think he's at about 40 now.
 
Man, if you ever wanted to trade a ton of draft picks and young players to get a one-dimensional all-nba center hoping that since he's the complete opposite of your other one-dimensional all-nba center and hope you can figure out how to make them fit together having one of them miss 50+ games is really not ideal.

In other words, effing KAT is STILL out.
Or is that what the league wants you to believe?
 
Man, if you ever wanted to trade a ton of draft picks and young players to get a one-dimensional all-nba center hoping that since he's the complete opposite of your other one-dimensional all-nba center and hope you can figure out how to make them fit together having one of them miss 50+ games is really not ideal.

In other words, effing KAT is STILL out.
Not to pile on, but one of those draft picks (Walker Kessler) has a rebounding title and DPOY in his future.
 
Man, if you ever wanted to trade a ton of draft picks and young players to get a one-dimensional all-nba center hoping that since he's the complete opposite of your other one-dimensional all-nba center and hope you can figure out how to make them fit together having one of them miss 50+ games is really not ideal.

In other words, effing KAT is STILL out.
Not to pile on, but one of those draft picks (Walker Kessler) has a rebounding title and DPOY in his future.
I could see it.
 
Celtics crapped their way to OT.

Last 3 possessions were Brown made only 1 of 3 FT's, Tatum TO, Brown TO.

Pacers chance to win in regulation and Smart forced a bad deep 3 from Haliburton.
 
Celtics crapped their way to OT.

Last 3 possessions were Brown made only 1 of 3 FT's, Tatum TO, Brown TO.

Pacers chance to win in regulation and Smart forced a bad deep 3 from Haliburton.
Celtics pulled it out.

Haliburton is a stud, but it took a career game from Myles Turner to keep the Pacers in it.
 
Man, if you ever wanted to trade a ton of draft picks and young players to get a one-dimensional all-nba center hoping that since he's the complete opposite of your other one-dimensional all-nba center and hope you can figure out how to make them fit together having one of them miss 50+ games is really not ideal.

In other words, effing KAT is STILL out.
If it makes you feel better, I’m liking all the ex-Wolves the Lakers traded for.
 
I am getting more curious about how the data analytics and team projection stuff works. The Celtics were the clear favorite at the all star break. They came back and played a high scoring game against the Pacers (which they won) and their outlook dropped a ton. Nuggets now the favorite on 538 while the Clippers vaulted to 35% to win the title (Boston now 25%) according to ESPN BPI.
 
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I am getting more curious about how the data analytics and team projection stuff works. The Celtics were the clear favorite at the all star break. They came back and played a high scoring game against the Pacers (which they won) and their outlook dropped a ton. Nuggets now the favorite on 538 while the Clippers vaulted to 35% to win the title (Boston now 25%).
That’s interesting. I’d think that KD joining the Suns and getting closer to returning after getting a week due to the All star break would actually reduce the odds for the other teams in the Western conference.
 
I am getting more curious about how the data analytics and team projection stuff works. The Celtics were the clear favorite at the all star break. They came back and played a high scoring game against the Pacers (which they won) and their outlook dropped a ton. Nuggets now the favorite on 538 while the Clippers vaulted to 35% to win the title (Boston now 25%).
ETA: Now I realize you are referring to the ESPN odds and not 538. Denver did make a monster jump on 538 from 15% on 2/17 to today. For whatever reason they really think Denver is the team to beat now.

Here are the current 538 title odds:
Denver - 24%
Boston - 20%
Milwaukee - 16%
Grizzlies - 8%
76ers - 7%
Mavericks - 5%
Warriors - 4%
Cavaliers - 4%
Suns - 2%
Heat - 2%
Timberwolves - 2%
Clippers - 1%
Lakers - 1%

I feel like more of Boston's decline in the odds has more to do with the rise of the Bucks than anything. Just getting out of the East isn't going to be easy, so any decline in those odds is an automatic decline in winning the Finals.

The Clippers are still considered very much a long shot on 538...even below the T-Wolves. :loco:
 
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I am getting more curious about how the data analytics and team projection stuff works. The Celtics were the clear favorite at the all star break. They came back and played a high scoring game against the Pacers (which they won) and their outlook dropped a ton. Nuggets now the favorite on 538 while the Clippers vaulted to 35% to win the title (Boston now 25%).
ETA: Now I realize you are referring to the ESPN odds and not 538. Denver did make a monster jump on 538 from 15% on 2/17 to today. For whatever reason they really think Denver is the team to beat now.

Here are the current 538 title odds:
Denver - 24%
Boston - 20%
Milwaukee - 16%
Grizzlies - 8%
76ers - 7%
Mavericks - 5%
Warriors - 4%
Cavaliers - 4%
Suns - 2%
Heat - 2%
Timberwolves - 2%
Clippers - 1%
Lakers - 1%

I feel like more of Boston's decline in the odds has more to do with the rise of the Bucks than anything. Just getting out of the East isn't going to be easy, so any decline in those odds is an automatic decline in winning the Finals.

The Clippers are still considered very much a long shot on 538...even below the T-Wolves. :loco:
Yeah, I wasn't clear in blending two different sources. ESPN's analytics have been whacky, but 538's generally only move in small increments, not big jumps from game to game.

What I don't get as far as the Celtics go is they have played so many games recently with starters out of the lineup, that skewed their record / performance / results. Last night was only the second game all season they were able to start the Jays, Smart, Al, and Timelord. Other than Gallinari, last night was the only game this year everyone else was available. I expect Boston will go on a run again if they can stay healthy.
 
I am getting more curious about how the data analytics and team projection stuff works. The Celtics were the clear favorite at the all star break. They came back and played a high scoring game against the Pacers (which they won) and their outlook dropped a ton. Nuggets now the favorite on 538 while the Clippers vaulted to 35% to win the title (Boston now 25%).
ETA: Now I realize you are referring to the ESPN odds and not 538. Denver did make a monster jump on 538 from 15% on 2/17 to today. For whatever reason they really think Denver is the team to beat now.

Here are the current 538 title odds:
Denver - 24%
Boston - 20%
Milwaukee - 16%
Grizzlies - 8%
76ers - 7%
Mavericks - 5%
Warriors - 4%
Cavaliers - 4%
Suns - 2%
Heat - 2%
Timberwolves - 2%
Clippers - 1%
Lakers - 1%

I feel like more of Boston's decline in the odds has more to do with the rise of the Bucks than anything. Just getting out of the East isn't going to be easy, so any decline in those odds is an automatic decline in winning the Finals.

The Clippers are still considered very much a long shot on 538...even below the T-Wolves. :loco:
Yeah, I wasn't clear in blending two different sources. ESPN's analytics have been whacky, but 538's generally only move in small increments, not big jumps from game to game.

What I don't get as far as the Celtics go is they have played so many games recently with starters out of the lineup, that skewed their record / performance / results. Last night was only the second game all season they were able to start the Jays, Smart, Al, and Timelord. Other than Gallinari, last night was the only game this year everyone else was available. I expect Boston will go on a run again if they can stay healthy.
538 has 2 different systems. RAPTOR is based on the sum of the perceived abilities of the individual players. So if it calculates that 5 players have 10 win shares each and 5 have 1 win share each and everyone else has 0, it will project you to win 55 games (as a simplistic example). It tends to be more forward looking based on what the current players are doing. Elo is based more on what the team has actually done so far based on who they have played and in what circumstances. So it is more reflective of the probable strength of a team to that point.


I don't know what to say about ESPN
 
Man, if you ever wanted to trade a ton of draft picks and young players to get a one-dimensional all-nba center hoping that since he's the complete opposite of your other one-dimensional all-nba center and hope you can figure out how to make them fit together having one of them miss 50+ games is really not ideal.

In other words, effing KAT is STILL out.
KAT is really killing his trade value for this offseason.
 
I am getting more curious about how the data analytics and team projection stuff works. The Celtics were the clear favorite at the all star break. They came back and played a high scoring game against the Pacers (which they won) and their outlook dropped a ton. Nuggets now the favorite on 538 while the Clippers vaulted to 35% to win the title (Boston now 25%).
ETA: Now I realize you are referring to the ESPN odds and not 538. Denver did make a monster jump on 538 from 15% on 2/17 to today. For whatever reason they really think Denver is the team to beat now.

Here are the current 538 title odds:
Denver - 24%
Boston - 20%
Milwaukee - 16%
Grizzlies - 8%
76ers - 7%
Mavericks - 5%
Warriors - 4%
Cavaliers - 4%
Suns - 2%
Heat - 2%
Timberwolves - 2%
Clippers - 1%
Lakers - 1%

I feel like more of Boston's decline in the odds has more to do with the rise of the Bucks than anything. Just getting out of the East isn't going to be easy, so any decline in those odds is an automatic decline in winning the Finals.

The Clippers are still considered very much a long shot on 538...even below the T-Wolves. :loco:
Yeah, I wasn't clear in blending two different sources. ESPN's analytics have been whacky, but 538's generally only move in small increments, not big jumps from game to game.

What I don't get as far as the Celtics go is they have played so many games recently with starters out of the lineup, that skewed their record / performance / results. Last night was only the second game all season they were able to start the Jays, Smart, Al, and Timelord. Other than Gallinari, last night was the only game this year everyone else was available. I expect Boston will go on a run again if they can stay healthy.
538 has 2 different systems. RAPTOR is based on the sum of the perceived abilities of the individual players. So if it calculates that 5 players have 10 win shares each and 5 have 1 win share each and everyone else has 0, it will project you to win 55 games (as a simplistic example). It tends to be more forward looking based on what the current players are doing. Elo is based more on what the team has actually done so far based on who they have played and in what circumstances. So it is more reflective of the probable strength of a team to that point.


I don't know what to say about ESPN
All the analytics sites use a different secret sauce. I thought that 538 baked in a recency element, meaning the last few weeks of games matter to them way more than what happened at the start of the season.

Basketball Reference has their own probabilities for winning the title . . .

BOS - 22.3%
CLE - 17.8%
DEN - 15.5%
MEM - 12.1%
PHI - 8.0%
MIL - 6.6%
SAC - 3.2%
NYK - 2.4%
PHO - 2.1%

Those are the only teams with a 2% chance. They have the Clippers at 0.7% and the Warriors at 0.3%. Obviously, the champion will be crowned for winning actual games on the court, not through some black magic data manipulation by a stat geek to declare a winner. But Basketball Reference is the one site that jumped out at me for really liking the Cavs.
 
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