2025-26 NBA Thread: Chauncey Billups suddenly resigns to play minor-league baseball (2 Viewers)

[Juxtatarot]

I disagree with the George trade. No one thought that was an horrific trade when it happened, in hindsight it is worse. The Luka trade was laughed at it from start.

If we are using hindsight we can probably find a lot of really bad trades and we won't know where to rank the Luka trade for a decade.

Yeah, using this standard, I don't remember any deal being ridiculed from the start as much as this one.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Skinny Luka is scary. He’s way more active and engaged on both sides of the court. When he was heavy, you would see him dominate maybe for one quar

I disagree with the George trade. No one thought that was an horrific trade when it happened, in hindsight it is worse. The Luka trade was laughed at it from start.

If we are using hindsight we can probably find a lot of really bad trades and we won't know where to rank the Luka trade for a decade.

Yeah, using this standard, I don't remember any deal being ridiculed from the start as much as this one.

The Rudy Gobert trade was LARGELY touted as being the worst trade of all time by Minnesota. People thought that Ainge was a genius and that the haul and assets that he got in return were all but a guarantee that Utah would be a juggernaut in the future. While some might try to claim that Gobert isn’t great—the fact of the matter is that his acquisition played a role in rising them from being an unremarkable team to being relevant. Utah basically did the opposite—they went from being a relevant team to being in purgatory.

The Anthony Davis trade was hugely scrutinized at the time. People called Lebron -LeGM and trading away assets like Ingram, Hart, Lonzo and 3 first round picks for Anthony Davis was very criticized. The Lakers ended up winning a ring because of that trade (albeit in the bubble—but I personally do not hold that against them—you have to play the games in front of you). Taking that a step further—Davis ends up getting traded for Luka .

I think you have to use a little hindsight when evaluating trades because the concept is that the teams (GM”s) are supposed to use foresight when they make deals. That is what their job is. How much foresight was used when Ishbia and the Suns made a splash and immediately traded for Kevin Durant and blew their budget on Bradley Beal? I think removing hindsight from trades paints a very incomplete picture.

With Luka for Anthony Davis—at this moment in time—the Lakers seem to be on the right side. However—as another posted said—the Cooper Flagg dynamic seems to be a little too coincidental to be random imo—and that may have played a part. Also, let’s not overlook that “skinny Luka” was not happening in Dallas over the last few years. They also had a healthy Kyrie Irving when the trade was made. One could argue that the Mavs would have a better chance with Kyrie, Anthony Davis, Cooper Flagg, PJ washington, Klay then they would with Luka and Kyrie with no Flagg.

 

[Navin Johnson]

There are tons of terrible trades in NBA history. However, just in recent history, this one is likely worse:

Clippers get Paul George
Thunder get Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Danilo Gallinari, five first-round picks, four first-round pick swaps

So OKC turned Oladipo and Sabonis into that haul

 

[Navin Johnson]

I disagree with the George trade. No one thought that was an horrific trade when it happened, in hindsight it is worse. The Luka trade was laughed at it from start.

If we are using hindsight we can probably find a lot of really bad trades and we won't know where to rank the Luka trade for a decade.

People gave it a pass at the time because it indirectly landed Kawhi

 

[massraider]

Not even close to as bad as the OKC trade, so far.

Luka ain't done **** in LA yet, so until he does....

 

[Encyclopedia Brown]

If we are using hindsight we can probably find a lot of really bad trades

The Bulls trading Wendell Carter and a draft pick that turned into Franz Wagner for Nikola Vucevic fits into that category.

Vucevic has been a solid but ordinary player. Carter is a solid glue-guy . Most painfully of all for the Bulls, Wagner looks to be on the verge of an All-Star/All-NBA type of career.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

I disagree with the George trade. No one thought that was an horrific trade when it happened, in hindsight it is worse. The Luka trade was laughed at it from start.

If we are using hindsight we can probably find a lot of really bad trades and we won't know where to rank the Luka trade for a decade.

People gave it a pass at the time because it indirectly landed Kawhi

That doesn’t make it better. They effectively gave the keys and control of the franchise to a player that had a history of showing no loyalty that wasn’t even there yet. The Kawhi element of the trade is not evidence that is supportive of justifying potentially the worst trade in history—it’s instead evidence that’s MORE supportive of it being one of the worst trades in history. People are critical of Lebron for advocating for deals while he was actually a Laker. Imagine a team trading away a bright young star and future picks away because a player who hadn’t yet played a single game for them told them to do so.

 

[Zow]

I disagree with the George trade. No one thought that was an horrific trade when it happened, in hindsight it is worse. The Luka trade was laughed at it from start.

If we are using hindsight we can probably find a lot of really bad trades and we won't know where to rank the Luka trade for a decade.

And the only reason it may not "feel" too bad is because they lucked into Flagg.

 

[Navin Johnson]

I disagree with the George trade. No one thought that was an horrific trade when it happened, in hindsight it is worse. The Luka trade was laughed at it from start.

If we are using hindsight we can probably find a lot of really bad trades and we won't know where to rank the Luka trade for a decade.

People gave it a pass at the time because it indirectly landed Kawhi

That doesn’t make it better. They effectively gave the keys and control of the franchise to a player that had a history of showing no loyalty that wasn’t even there yet. The Kawhi element of the trade is not evidence that is supportive of justifying potentially the worst trade in history—it’s instead evidence that’s MORE supportive of it being one of the worst trades in history. People are critical of Lebron for advocating for deals while he was actually a Laker. Imagine a team trading away a bright young star and future picks away because a player who hadn’t yet played a single game for them told them to do so.

ok?

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Every time I watch Luka Doncic in a Lakers uniform I ask myself how in the world did Dallas allow this guy to be traded? I mean it’s gotta be the worst trade ever, right?

Right now it looks like it, but time will tell. There is also a lot of moving parts besides Davis and Luka. There is the future first and Cooper Flagg. They never get Flagg if they don't trade Luka.

The actual question is would Luka have been this motivated if he had stayed with the Mavericks.

You can’t be serious about assessing this trade by including Flagg in it. They had incredibly low odds of getting Flagg when the trade was made. That’s revisionist history.

 

[HellToupee]

To

mean it’s gotta be the worst trade ever, right?

tough to beat Joe Barry Carroll for 2 HOFers

 

[Desert_Power]

Every time I watch Luka Doncic in a Lakers uniform I ask myself how in the world did Dallas allow this guy to be traded? I mean it’s gotta be the worst trade ever, right?

Right now it looks like it, but time will tell. There is also a lot of moving parts besides Davis and Luka. There is the future first and Cooper Flagg. They never get Flagg if they don't trade Luka.

The actual question is would Luka have been this motivated if he had stayed with the Mavericks.

You can’t be serious about assessing this trade by including Flagg in it. They had incredibly low odds of getting Flagg when the trade was made. That’s revisionist history.

I guess it depends on if Nico knew the NBA was going to rig the lottery for them beforehand or not.

 

[msudaisy26]

Every time I watch Luka Doncic in a Lakers uniform I ask myself how in the world did Dallas allow this guy to be traded? I mean it’s gotta be the worst trade ever, right?

Right now it looks like it, but time will tell. There is also a lot of moving parts besides Davis and Luka. There is the future first and Cooper Flagg. They never get Flagg if they don't trade Luka.

The actual question is would Luka have been this motivated if he had stayed with the Mavericks.

You can’t be serious about assessing this trade by including Flagg in it. They had incredibly low odds of getting Flagg when the trade was made. That’s revisionist history.

You can't be serious about not including it. The Mavs had a zero percent chance with Luka of getting Flagg, and how is it revisionist history everyone thought it as soon as the Mavs won the lottery. Were we supposed to think it before they missed the playoffs?

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Every time I watch Luka Doncic in a Lakers uniform I ask myself how in the world did Dallas allow this guy to be traded? I mean it’s gotta be the worst trade ever, right?

Right now it looks like it, but time will tell. There is also a lot of moving parts besides Davis and Luka. There is the future first and Cooper Flagg. They never get Flagg if they don't trade Luka.

The actual question is would Luka have been this motivated if he had stayed with the Mavericks.

You can’t be serious about assessing this trade by including Flagg in it. They had incredibly low odds of getting Flagg when the trade was made. That’s revisionist history.

You can't be serious about not including it. The Mavs had a zero percent chance with Luka of getting Flagg, and how is it revisionist history everyone thought it as soon as the Mavs won the lottery. Were we supposed to think it before they missed the playoffs?

I’m happy to include the very small odds they had into the equation. I’m not including the actual outcome where they 100% DID get Flagg. That would be insane.

 

[msudaisy26]

Every time I watch Luka Doncic in a Lakers uniform I ask myself how in the world did Dallas allow this guy to be traded? I mean it’s gotta be the worst trade ever, right?

Right now it looks like it, but time will tell. There is also a lot of moving parts besides Davis and Luka. There is the future first and Cooper Flagg. They never get Flagg if they don't trade Luka.

The actual question is would Luka have been this motivated if he had stayed with the Mavericks.

You can’t be serious about assessing this trade by including Flagg in it. They had incredibly low odds of getting Flagg when the trade was made. That’s revisionist history.

You can't be serious about not including it. The Mavs had a zero percent chance with Luka of getting Flagg, and how is it revisionist history everyone thought it as soon as the Mavs won the lottery. Were we supposed to think it before they missed the playoffs?

I’m happy to include the very small odds they had into the equation. I’m not including the actual outcome where they 100% DID get Flagg. That would be insane.

Sure the odds were small and only a horrible general manager would factor that in when making a trade, but they did hit. So we have to include it.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Every time I watch Luka Doncic in a Lakers uniform I ask myself how in the world did Dallas allow this guy to be traded? I mean it’s gotta be the worst trade ever, right?

Right now it looks like it, but time will tell. There is also a lot of moving parts besides Davis and Luka. There is the future first and Cooper Flagg. They never get Flagg if they don't trade Luka.

The actual question is would Luka have been this motivated if he had stayed with the Mavericks.

You can’t be serious about assessing this trade by including Flagg in it. They had incredibly low odds of getting Flagg when the trade was made. That’s revisionist history.

You can't be serious about not including it. The Mavs had a zero percent chance with Luka of getting Flagg, and how is it revisionist history everyone thought it as soon as the Mavs won the lottery. Were we supposed to think it before they missed the playoffs?

I’m happy to include the very small odds they had into the equation. I’m not including the actual outcome where they 100% DID get Flagg. That would be insane.

Sure the odds were small and only a horrible general manager would factor that in when making a trade, but they did hit. So we have to include it.

Uh, no. We have to include the small odds of Flagg hitting at the time the trade was made. Along with the probability-weighted odds of other quality players they could have drafted.

We do not have to — nor should any rational decision maker — retroactively act like they had 100% odds of adding Flagg. That’s a flawed way of thinking.

But I also get your MO based on past history that you’ll double down on this ad infinitum, so have a good day.

 

[msudaisy26]

Every time I watch Luka Doncic in a Lakers uniform I ask myself how in the world did Dallas allow this guy to be traded? I mean it’s gotta be the worst trade ever, right?

Right now it looks like it, but time will tell. There is also a lot of moving parts besides Davis and Luka. There is the future first and Cooper Flagg. They never get Flagg if they don't trade Luka.

The actual question is would Luka have been this motivated if he had stayed with the Mavericks.

You can’t be serious about assessing this trade by including Flagg in it. They had incredibly low odds of getting Flagg when the trade was made. That’s revisionist history.

You can't be serious about not including it. The Mavs had a zero percent chance with Luka of getting Flagg, and how is it revisionist history everyone thought it as soon as the Mavs won the lottery. Were we supposed to think it before they missed the playoffs?

I’m happy to include the very small odds they had into the equation. I’m not including the actual outcome where they 100% DID get Flagg. That would be insane.

Sure the odds were small and only a horrible general manager would factor that in when making a trade, but they did hit. So we have to include it.

Uh, no. We have to include the small odds of Flagg hitting at the time the trade was made. Along with the probability-weighted odds of other quality players they could have drafted.

We do not have to — nor should any rational decision maker — retroactively act like they had 100% odds of adding Flagg. That’s a flawed way of thinking.

But I also get your MO based on past history that you’ll double down on this ad infinitum, so have a good day.

Talk all flawed logic. I will weigh in the small chance they can now get Cooper Flagg, but not count it when happens.

Good luck with that.

 

[Mister CIA]

Dylan Harper will be ROTY.

 

[scoobus]

Dallas deserves zero credit for lucking into the #1 pick at 1.8% odds.

Zero.

It's the worst trade I can remember in my history of following the NBA. Just absolutely shocking.

 

[msudaisy26]

Dallas deserves zero credit for lucking into the #1 pick at 1.8% odds.

Zero.

It's the worst trade I can remember in my history of following the NBA. Just absolutely shocking.

Using everything we know it isn't. The initial shock it was the worst, but the SGA/ Paul George trade is way worse after everything.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Dallas deserves zero credit for lucking into the #1 pick at 1.8% odds.

Zero.

It's the worst trade I can remember in my history of following the NBA. Just absolutely shocking.

Using everything we know it isn't. The initial shock it was the worst, but the SGA/ Paul George trade is way worse after everything.

No way. Luka trade is the worst trade of all-time in any sport. Luka was a top player in the league when traded. No one knew if SGA would be this good.

 

[scoobus]

Dallas deserves zero credit for lucking into the #1 pick at 1.8% odds.

Zero.

It's the worst trade I can remember in my history of following the NBA. Just absolutely shocking.

Using everything we know it isn't. The initial shock it was the worst, but the SGA/ Paul George trade is way worse after everything.

Not even close.

We're just looking at it differently, you're evaluating it using hindsight is 20/20 so-to-speak, I'm judging it by value of the assets at the time of the trade. Guys like Luka don't get traded, like ever. And to only get back an aging superstar on a soon-to-be bad contract at a position of strength already, and ONE 1st round pick, it's insanity. I remember just staring at the screen when it was first announced, assuming it had to be bad reporting or a some kind of joke.

 

[msudaisy26]

Dallas deserves zero credit for lucking into the #1 pick at 1.8% odds.

Zero.

It's the worst trade I can remember in my history of following the NBA. Just absolutely shocking.

Using everything we know it isn't. The initial shock it was the worst, but the SGA/ Paul George trade is way worse after everything.

No way. Luka trade is the worst trade of all-time in any sport. Luka was a top player in the league when traded. No one knew if SGA would be this good.

I am sure there are worse, but it depends on how you grade trades.

 

[msudaisy26]

Dallas deserves zero credit for lucking into the #1 pick at 1.8% odds.

Zero.

It's the worst trade I can remember in my history of following the NBA. Just absolutely shocking.

Using everything we know it isn't. The initial shock it was the worst, but the SGA/ Paul George trade is way worse after everything.

Not even close.

We're just looking at it differently, you're evaluating it using hindsight is 20/20 so-to-speak, I'm judging it by value of the assets at the time of the trade. Guys like Luka don't get traded, like ever. And to only get back an aging superstar on a soon-to-be bad contract at a position of strength already, and ONE 1st round pick, it's insanity. I remember just staring at the screen when it was first announced, assuming it had to be bad reporting or a some kind of joke.

Like I said initially shock. I agree, but that is only part of the trade, the results matter and because we won't know the results for 10 years it isn't the worst.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Dallas deserves zero credit for lucking into the #1 pick at 1.8% odds.

Zero.

It's the worst trade I can remember in my history of following the NBA. Just absolutely shocking.

Using everything we know it isn't. The initial shock it was the worst, but the SGA/ Paul George trade is way worse after everything.

Not even close.

We're just looking at it differently, you're evaluating it using hindsight is 20/20 so-to-speak, I'm judging it by value of the assets at the time of the trade. Guys like Luka don't get traded, like ever. And to only get back an aging superstar on a soon-to-be bad contract at a position of strength already, and ONE 1st round pick, it's insanity. I remember just staring at the screen when it was first announced, assuming it had to be bad reporting or a some kind of joke.

Yep. It’s indefensible. The Shai trade was also really bad though.

 

[scoobus]

Dallas deserves zero credit for lucking into the #1 pick at 1.8% odds.

Zero.

It's the worst trade I can remember in my history of following the NBA. Just absolutely shocking.

Using everything we know it isn't. The initial shock it was the worst, but the SGA/ Paul George trade is way worse after everything.

Not even close.

We're just looking at it differently, you're evaluating it using hindsight is 20/20 so-to-speak, I'm judging it by value of the assets at the time of the trade. Guys like Luka don't get traded, like ever. And to only get back an aging superstar on a soon-to-be bad contract at a position of strength already, and ONE 1st round pick, it's insanity. I remember just staring at the screen when it was first announced, assuming it had to be bad reporting or a some kind of joke.

Like I said initially shock. I agree, but that is only part of the trade, the results matter and because we won't know the results for 10 years it isn't the worst.

So if the Spurs traded Wemby for a couple of future 2nds we couldn't grade it as bad, because who knows what those picks might turn into?

Nah.

 

[msudaisy26]

Dallas deserves zero credit for lucking into the #1 pick at 1.8% odds.

Zero.

It's the worst trade I can remember in my history of following the NBA. Just absolutely shocking.

Using everything we know it isn't. The initial shock it was the worst, but the SGA/ Paul George trade is way worse after everything.

Not even close.

We're just looking at it differently, you're evaluating it using hindsight is 20/20 so-to-speak, I'm judging it by value of the assets at the time of the trade. Guys like Luka don't get traded, like ever. And to only get back an aging superstar on a soon-to-be bad contract at a position of strength already, and ONE 1st round pick, it's insanity. I remember just staring at the screen when it was first announced, assuming it had to be bad reporting or a some kind of joke.

Like I said initially shock. I agree, but that is only part of the trade, the results matter and because we won't know the results for 10 years it isn't the worst.

So if the Spurs traded Wemby for a couple of future 2nds we couldn't grade it as bad, because who knows what those picks might turn into?

Nah.

Lol okay go to the worst possible scenario that could never happen. That will prove your point.

Then two weeks later Wemby has a freak career ending injury. Great trade right?

 

[scoobus]

Dallas deserves zero credit for lucking into the #1 pick at 1.8% odds.

Zero.

It's the worst trade I can remember in my history of following the NBA. Just absolutely shocking.

Using everything we know it isn't. The initial shock it was the worst, but the SGA/ Paul George trade is way worse after everything.

Not even close.

We're just looking at it differently, you're evaluating it using hindsight is 20/20 so-to-speak, I'm judging it by value of the assets at the time of the trade. Guys like Luka don't get traded, like ever. And to only get back an aging superstar on a soon-to-be bad contract at a position of strength already, and ONE 1st round pick, it's insanity. I remember just staring at the screen when it was first announced, assuming it had to be bad reporting or a some kind of joke.

Like I said initially shock. I agree, but that is only part of the trade, the results matter and because we won't know the results for 10 years it isn't the worst.

So if the Spurs traded Wemby for a couple of future 2nds we couldn't grade it as bad, because who knows what those picks might turn into?

Nah.

Lol okay go to the worst possible scenario that could never happen. That will prove your point.

Then two weeks later Wemby has a freak career ending injury. Great trade right?

No, still not a great trade, that's my entire point.

 

[msudaisy26]

Dallas deserves zero credit for lucking into the #1 pick at 1.8% odds.

Zero.

It's the worst trade I can remember in my history of following the NBA. Just absolutely shocking.

Using everything we know it isn't. The initial shock it was the worst, but the SGA/ Paul George trade is way worse after everything.

Not even close.

We're just looking at it differently, you're evaluating it using hindsight is 20/20 so-to-speak, I'm judging it by value of the assets at the time of the trade. Guys like Luka don't get traded, like ever. And to only get back an aging superstar on a soon-to-be bad contract at a position of strength already, and ONE 1st round pick, it's insanity. I remember just staring at the screen when it was first announced, assuming it had to be bad reporting or a some kind of joke.

Like I said initially shock. I agree, but that is only part of the trade, the results matter and because we won't know the results for 10 years it isn't the worst.

So if the Spurs traded Wemby for a couple of future 2nds we couldn't grade it as bad, because who knows what those picks might turn into?

Nah.

Lol okay go to the worst possible scenario that could never happen. That will prove your point.

Then two weeks later Wemby has a freak career ending injury. Great trade right?

No, still not a great trade, that's my entire point.

Lol okay.

 

[Yo Mama]

Oowee, Reaves with a massive 51/11/9 with Luka and LeBron both out. What a game.

 

[Gr00vus]

Oowee, Reaves with a massive 51/11/9 with Luka and LeBron both out. What a game.

He was ridiculous tonight. Ayton had a good night also. Going to be a tough week plus here. A lot of road games on top of the injuries.

 

[Yo Mama]

Oowee, Reaves with a massive 51/11/9 with Luka and LeBron both out. What a game.

He was ridiculous tonight. Ayton had a good night also. Going to be a tough week plus here. A lot of road games on top of the injuries.

Yeah Vincent is hurt now too, gonna be a tough stretch.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

Oowee, Reaves with a massive 51/11/9 with Luka and LeBron both out. What a game.

Great game carrying Lakers. Gonna get paid next offseason

Rough time to be a Kings fan. Again. Average age of player is 75. None of them have any trade value that's going to bring anything in return. I can't ever imagine the rationale of watching Lavine-Derozan be a play-in quality team year after year in a much worse East with the Bulls and then thinking "Let's make our team that!!". At least it looks like they replaced that GM.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Oowee, Reaves with a massive 51/11/9 with Luka and LeBron both out. What a game.

Great game carrying Lakers. Gonna get paid next offseason

Rough time to be a Kings fan. Again. Average age of player is 75. None of them have any trade value that's going to bring anything in return. I can't ever imagine the rationale of watching Lavine-Derozan be a play-in quality team year after year in a much worse East with the Bulls and then thinking "Let's make our team that!!". At least it looks like they replaced that GM.

I believe @thecatch believes they will be reluctant to rebuild (he mentioned they’d like to keep Sabonis) but it’s hard to see how they could work around the edges. Assuming a lackluster season, a rebuild certainly seems to be the best option. That unprotected ‘31 swap they owe to the Spurs can be a problem if they wait too long to start it.

I think they can get something for Sabonis although not a ton. More if they will accept bad contracts in return. DeRozan has a buyout of $10 million. He won’t want to stay if they are rebuilding. Maybe they could negotiate that amount with him so he can go elsewhere? I also wonder if there is a way to get LaVine to decline his player option to sign/extend with another team for less money but more years?

 

[the moops]

I think they can get something for Sabonis although not a ton.

If he goes on the market it is going to be a fascinating watch to see what he returns. I think different teams around the league value someone like him far differently

 

[Juxtatarot]

I think they can get something for Sabonis although not a ton.

If he goes on the market it is going to be a fascinating watch to see what he returns. I think different teams around the league value someone like him far differently

Yeah, every team wants a unicorn center who can protect the rim, guard more than one position, shoot, facilitate, etc. but there are few of those guys. So which abilities is a team willing to sacrifice? If a team has good point of attack defenders, Sabonis can work IMO.

 

[msudaisy26]

Oowee, Reaves with a massive 51/11/9 with Luka and LeBron both out. What a game.

Great game carrying Lakers. Gonna get paid next offseason

Rough time to be a Kings fan. Again. Average age of player is 75. None of them have any trade value that's going to bring anything in return. I can't ever imagine the rationale of watching Lavine-Derozan be a play-in quality team year after year in a much worse East with the Bulls and then thinking "Let's make our team that!!". At least it looks like they replaced that GM.

I believe @thecatch believes they will be reluctant to rebuild (he mentioned they’d like to keep Sabonis) but it’s hard to see how they could work around the edges. Assuming a lackluster season, a rebuild certainly seems to be the best option. That unprotected ‘31 swap they owe to the Spurs can be a problem if they wait too long to start it.

I think they can get something for Sabonis although not a ton. More if they will accept bad contracts in return. DeRozan has a buyout of $10 million. He won’t want to stay if they are rebuilding. Maybe they could negotiate that amount with him so he can go elsewhere? I also wonder if there is a way to get LaVine to decline his player option to sign/extend with another team for less money but more years?

I agree with this except worrying about traded picks. Those are sunk costs. Waiting to start a rebuild because you traded away picks to go for it is the best way to turn a rebuild into a long rebuild.

 

[thecatch]

Oowee, Reaves with a massive 51/11/9 with Luka and LeBron both out. What a game.

Great game carrying Lakers. Gonna get paid next offseason

Rough time to be a Kings fan. Again. Average age of player is 75. None of them have any trade value that's going to bring anything in return. I can't ever imagine the rationale of watching Lavine-Derozan be a play-in quality team year after year in a much worse East with the Bulls and then thinking "Let's make our team that!!". At least it looks like they replaced that GM.

I believe @thecatch believes they will be reluctant to rebuild (he mentioned they’d like to keep Sabonis) but it’s hard to see how they could work around the edges. Assuming a lackluster season, a rebuild certainly seems to be the best option. That unprotected ‘31 swap they owe to the Spurs can be a problem if they wait too long to start it.

I think they can get something for Sabonis although not a ton. More if they will accept bad contracts in return. DeRozan has a buyout of $10 million. He won’t want to stay if they are rebuilding. Maybe they could negotiate that amount with him so he can go elsewhere? I also wonder if there is a way to get LaVine to decline his player option to sign/extend with another team for less money but more years?

If they keep inadvertently tanking perhaps Vivek will be pressured into a fire sale. One can only hope.

Not that I'm defending the Kings' performance, but the Lakers benefited from an insane free throw disparity last night. The refs may help them weather the absences of their two superstars.

 

[Kev4029]

I think they can get something for Sabonis although not a ton.

If he goes on the market it is going to be a fascinating watch to see what he returns. I think different teams around the league value someone like him far differently

Yeah, every team wants a unicorn center who can protect the rim, guard more than one position, shoot, facilitate, etc. but there are few of those guys. So which abilities is a team willing to sacrifice? If a team has good point of attack defenders, Sabonis can work IMO.

To what end? And if you have to surround him with dudes that can shoot and defend, why not just find a better center too? He's a good stats, bad team guy. A nice player to help you compete for a playoff spot but his shortcomings make it tough to win a playoff series.

 

[Juxtatarot]

Oowee, Reaves with a massive 51/11/9 with Luka and LeBron both out. What a game.

Great game carrying Lakers. Gonna get paid next offseason

Rough time to be a Kings fan. Again. Average age of player is 75. None of them have any trade value that's going to bring anything in return. I can't ever imagine the rationale of watching Lavine-Derozan be a play-in quality team year after year in a much worse East with the Bulls and then thinking "Let's make our team that!!". At least it looks like they replaced that GM.

I believe @thecatch believes they will be reluctant to rebuild (he mentioned they’d like to keep Sabonis) but it’s hard to see how they could work around the edges. Assuming a lackluster season, a rebuild certainly seems to be the best option. That unprotected ‘31 swap they owe to the Spurs can be a problem if they wait too long to start it.

I think they can get something for Sabonis although not a ton. More if they will accept bad contracts in return. DeRozan has a buyout of $10 million. He won’t want to stay if they are rebuilding. Maybe they could negotiate that amount with him so he can go elsewhere? I also wonder if there is a way to get LaVine to decline his player option to sign/extend with another team for less money but more years?

I agree with this except worrying about traded picks. Those are sunk costs. Waiting to start a rebuild because you traded away picks to go for it is the best way to turn a rebuild into a long rebuild.

I’m saying the opposite, they are better rebuilding sooner than later.

Pick rights do matter. With less control, the rebuild decision makes less sense because a major reason to rebuild is to get that lotto luck. It’s not that bad for the Kings though since it’s only one year. But there is a little extra incentive to do it sooner.

In the end, though, I think we are on the same page. The Kings should rebuild!

 

[Juxtatarot]

I think they can get something for Sabonis although not a ton.

If he goes on the market it is going to be a fascinating watch to see what he returns. I think different teams around the league value someone like him far differently

Yeah, every team wants a unicorn center who can protect the rim, guard more than one position, shoot, facilitate, etc. but there are few of those guys. So which abilities is a team willing to sacrifice? If a team has good point of attack defenders, Sabonis can work IMO.

To what end? And if you have to surround him with dudes that can shoot and defend, why not just find a better center too? He's a good stats, bad team guy. A nice player to help you compete for a playoff spot but his shortcomings make it tough to win a playoff series.

But one of my points is that virtually all centers have shortcomings. Sabonis is nearly universally ranked in the top 10 in centers for a reason. Better centers than him are difficult to get. A team can prioritize getting a better defensive center but those available guys have their own warts. Can you win with a Gafford or a Claxton but not a Sabonis?

 

[thecatch]

I think they can get something for Sabonis although not a ton.

If he goes on the market it is going to be a fascinating watch to see what he returns. I think different teams around the league value someone like him far differently

Yeah, every team wants a unicorn center who can protect the rim, guard more than one position, shoot, facilitate, etc. but there are few of those guys. So which abilities is a team willing to sacrifice? If a team has good point of attack defenders, Sabonis can work IMO.

To what end? And if you have to surround him with dudes that can shoot and defend, why not just find a better center too? He's a good stats, bad team guy. A nice player to help you compete for a playoff spot but his shortcomings make it tough to win a playoff series.

He's an extremely unselfish player who has been the best player on a few above-average teams so he's not what most people think of when they think of good stats bad team guys. This wasn't the case a couple years ago, but he can shoot well enough to stay on the court in the playoffs now. Rebounding is a defensive skill and he's elite at it. He wouldn't be on my short list of targets if I'm a contender, but there are probably ~25 teams that are doing worse at center. Tougher to make the case that he's worth it at that salary number.

It's so sad to watch him right now. If the had Kings purposefully set out on creating the worst supporting cast for him, they couldn't have done a better job than the roster they've put together this season. I imagine that won't help the trade market.

 

[Juxtatarot]

I think they can get something for Sabonis although not a ton.

If he goes on the market it is going to be a fascinating watch to see what he returns. I think different teams around the league value someone like him far differently

Yeah, every team wants a unicorn center who can protect the rim, guard more than one position, shoot, facilitate, etc. but there are few of those guys. So which abilities is a team willing to sacrifice? If a team has good point of attack defenders, Sabonis can work IMO.

To what end? And if you have to surround him with dudes that can shoot and defend, why not just find a better center too? He's a good stats, bad team guy. A nice player to help you compete for a playoff spot but his shortcomings make it tough to win a playoff series.

He's an extremely unselfish player who has been the best player on a few above-average teams so he's not what most people think of when they think of good stats bad team guys. This wasn't the case a couple years ago, but he can shoot well enough to stay on the court in the playoffs now. Rebounding is a defensive skill and he's elite at it. He wouldn't be on my short list of targets if I'm a contender, but there are probably ~25 teams that are doing worse at center. Tougher to make the case that he's worth it at that salary number.

It's so sad to watch him right now. If the had Kings purposefully set out on creating the worst supporting cast for him, they couldn't have done a better job than the roster they've put together this season. I imagine that won't help the trade market.

He even shot over 40% on threes last year and about 37% prior to that. Low volume and I assume they were mostly wide open looks but still.

 

[thecatch]

I think they can get something for Sabonis although not a ton.

If he goes on the market it is going to be a fascinating watch to see what he returns. I think different teams around the league value someone like him far differently

Yeah, every team wants a unicorn center who can protect the rim, guard more than one position, shoot, facilitate, etc. but there are few of those guys. So which abilities is a team willing to sacrifice? If a team has good point of attack defenders, Sabonis can work IMO.

To what end? And if you have to surround him with dudes that can shoot and defend, why not just find a better center too? He's a good stats, bad team guy. A nice player to help you compete for a playoff spot but his shortcomings make it tough to win a playoff series.

He's an extremely unselfish player who has been the best player on a few above-average teams so he's not what most people think of when they think of good stats bad team guys. This wasn't the case a couple years ago, but he can shoot well enough to stay on the court in the playoffs now. Rebounding is a defensive skill and he's elite at it. He wouldn't be on my short list of targets if I'm a contender, but there are probably ~25 teams that are doing worse at center. Tougher to make the case that he's worth it at that salary number.

It's so sad to watch him right now. If the had Kings purposefully set out on creating the worst supporting cast for him, they couldn't have done a better job than the roster they've put together this season. I imagine that won't help the trade market.

He even shot over 40% on threes last year and about 37% prior to that. Low volume and I assume they were mostly wide open looks but still.

Yep. He's not launching contested jumpers but he can hit those at a good enough clip where teams can't do what the Warriors did in that playoff series and play 10 feet off of him.

 

[Yo Mama]

To the tens of us lifelong NBA Cup diehards, I hate to announce I don’t have it in me to run a pool this year (pool games start Friday). If anyone wants to take it on I can help, but it snuck up on me this year and this week is brutal for me. Apologies to all.

 

[Kev4029]

I think they can get something for Sabonis although not a ton.

If he goes on the market it is going to be a fascinating watch to see what he returns. I think different teams around the league value someone like him far differently

Yeah, every team wants a unicorn center who can protect the rim, guard more than one position, shoot, facilitate, etc. but there are few of those guys. So which abilities is a team willing to sacrifice? If a team has good point of attack defenders, Sabonis can work IMO.

To what end? And if you have to surround him with dudes that can shoot and defend, why not just find a better center too? He's a good stats, bad team guy. A nice player to help you compete for a playoff spot but his shortcomings make it tough to win a playoff series.

He's an extremely unselfish player who has been the best player on a few above-average teams so he's not what most people think of when they think of good stats bad team guys. This wasn't the case a couple years ago, but he can shoot well enough to stay on the court in the playoffs now. Rebounding is a defensive skill and he's elite at it. He wouldn't be on my short list of targets if I'm a contender, but there are probably ~25 teams that are doing worse at center. Tougher to make the case that he's worth it at that salary number.

It's so sad to watch him right now. If the had Kings purposefully set out on creating the worst supporting cast for him, they couldn't have done a better job than the roster they've put together this season. I imagine that won't help the trade market.

He even shot over 40% on threes last year and about 37% prior to that. Low volume and I assume they were mostly wide open looks but still.

Last year ~95% of his threes were classified as wide open (6+ feet to the nearest defender), the year prior it was ~100%, the year prior to that was ~90%. And in each year those are almost 100% catch and shoot with plenty of time on the shot clock. On his long twos, it's a similar story. Nobody is guarding him on jumpers and he shoots so few that it has no positive effect on their offense.

Last year, the difference between him shooting 42% on threes and, say, 30% (the worst shooters in the league) on threes is roughly 3/4 of point a game for the team. But in the meantime, the defense doesn't even step up beyond the free throw line and allows for the rest of their defense to be in good position. Him being a passable wide open mid range shooter is even less useful - the difference between 35% (the worst shooters in the league) and the 46% he shot is about 1/4 of a point a game. So in total, the difference between him being the worst shooter in the league and his actual percentages is a full 1 point per game.

 

[Major]

I think they can get something for Sabonis although not a ton.

If he goes on the market it is going to be a fascinating watch to see what he returns. I think different teams around the league value someone like him far differently

Yeah, every team wants a unicorn center who can protect the rim, guard more than one position, shoot, facilitate, etc. but there are few of those guys. So which abilities is a team willing to sacrifice? If a team has good point of attack defenders, Sabonis can work IMO.

True. Nico would probably consider trading Flagg for Sabonis and a pick.

 

[Zeppelin]

True. Nico would probably consider trading Flagg for Sabonis and a pick.

I didn't know Sabonis played for the Lakers.

 

[Kev4029]

I think they can get something for Sabonis although not a ton.

If he goes on the market it is going to be a fascinating watch to see what he returns. I think different teams around the league value someone like him far differently

Yeah, every team wants a unicorn center who can protect the rim, guard more than one position, shoot, facilitate, etc. but there are few of those guys. So which abilities is a team willing to sacrifice? If a team has good point of attack defenders, Sabonis can work IMO.

To what end? And if you have to surround him with dudes that can shoot and defend, why not just find a better center too? He's a good stats, bad team guy. A nice player to help you compete for a playoff spot but his shortcomings make it tough to win a playoff series.

But one of my points is that virtually all centers have shortcomings. Sabonis is nearly universally ranked in the top 10 in centers for a reason. Better centers than him are difficult to get. A team can prioritize getting a better defensive center but those available guys have their own warts. Can you win with a Gafford or a Claxton but not a Sabonis?

Claxton, no, but Gafford was the starting center for the 2024 Mavs that made the finals. Last year Turner and Hartenstein were the starting centers. The year before that 100 year old Horford was the starting center for the champs. I think there are 20+ centers which could start on a finals team, some of whom Sabonis is unequivocally more talented than, but I don't see any world in which Sabonis could be part of a legitimate title contender because he can't shoot or defend.

 

[Mister CIA]

Wemby is the biggest news early in this NBA season, but I think Dylan Harper's game is right there in terms of interest and importance. In three games, Harper is third in FG attempts at the rim. These highlights are gorgeous.

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