3rd Round Reversal (1 Viewer)

[fantasyplayer]

Could someone please give me an explanation as to why/how the 3rd round reversal draft is more fair than a serpentine. I've heard the explanation that the early picks (particulalry #1) gets who he wants at RB, that the importance of having 2 quality RBs affects the 2nd round and allows the early picks to get an elite player at another position early in the 3rd. I'm not sure I buy that though. Every team in the 2nd round has the same opportunity to grab the elite non-RB, but chooses to get a 2nd RB instead, one who is presumably forecast to produce more points than the early picks' RB2.

Is there something that I'm missing?

 

[softball]

Could someone please give me an explanation as to why/how the 3rd round reversal draft is more fair than a serpentine. I've heard the explanation that the early picks (particulalry #1) gets who he wants at RB, that the importance of having 2 quality RBs affects the 2nd round and allows the early picks to get an elite player at another position early in the 3rd. I'm not sure I buy that though. Every team in the 2nd round has the same opportunity to grab the elite non-RB, but chooses to get a 2nd RB instead, one who is presumably forecast to produce more points than the early picks' RB2.Is there something that I'm missing?

You're not missing anything, it's a false speed bump placed in the draft to correct a "problem" known as the greatest FF season ever...LT2.The #1 Team has 4 players on their roster before the #14 or #12. Not good IMO.

 

[Tick]

Play with the draft pick calculator.

It's pretty clear to me, calculator or not, that third round reversal is more fair. It takes a lot to overcome that LT/SJ pick at the top of the first round.

 

[Captain Hook]

Could someone please give me an explanation as to why/how the 3rd round reversal draft is more fair than a serpentine. I've heard the explanation that the early picks (particulalry #1) gets who he wants at RB, that the importance of having 2 quality RBs affects the 2nd round and allows the early picks to get an elite player at another position early in the 3rd. I'm not sure I buy that though. Every team in the 2nd round has the same opportunity to grab the elite non-RB, but chooses to get a 2nd RB instead, one who is presumably forecast to produce more points than the early picks' RB2.Is there something that I'm missing?

Yes the fact that after getting their pick in the second round they get to pick again before anyone else in the thirdSo they have picks 1,24,25 (or 1,28,29) With 3RR they would have 1, 24, 36 (or 1,28, 42)Read Pasquino's article on it and it will help you understand

 

[fantasyplayer]

Could someone please give me an explanation as to why/how the 3rd round reversal draft is more fair than a serpentine. I've heard the explanation that the early picks (particulalry #1) gets who he wants at RB, that the importance of having 2 quality RBs affects the 2nd round and allows the early picks to get an elite player at another position early in the 3rd. I'm not sure I buy that though. Every team in the 2nd round has the same opportunity to grab the elite non-RB, but chooses to get a 2nd RB instead, one who is presumably forecast to produce more points than the early picks' RB2.Is there something that I'm missing?

Yes the fact that after getting their pick in the second round they get to pick again before anyone else in the thirdSo they have picks 1,24,25 (or 1,28,29) With 3RR they would have 1, 24, 36 (or 1,28, 42)Read Pasquino's article on it and it will help you understand

I understand how it works, and I understand that it's clearly less desirable for the early picks thatn serpentine. I guess I just don't follow the "they get to pick before everyone else in the 3rd arguement." The #12 gets to pick before everyone else in the 2nd, and the 4th, and the 6th etc.

 

[FantasyTrader]

You're thinking of draft picks as evenly spaced rungs on a ladder - which isn't case. If the 160 selections in a 10 team/16 round draft were represented as a 160 rung ladder - the bottom two rungs would be an inch apart and the top two rungs would be 4 feet apart in terms of relative value to each other.

Reversing the 3rd round accounts for the diminishing gaps relative to the gaps of value there were in the 1st round.

 

[houdini]

If you believe in the pick value calculator, then it's a very fair way to make every draft slot worth about the same. The difference in value between the best (1st) and worst (12th in serpentine) positions is huge in a serpentine draft and tiny in a reverse 3rd draft.

through 12 rounds:

Serpentine

best = 1st = 6,476.9

worst = 12th = 6,102.0 or 5.8% worse than 1st

Reverse 3rd

best = 1st = 6,291.7

worst = 7th = 6,202.1 or 1.4% worse than 1st

So every draft slot is within 1½% of the best draft slot. With the traditional serpentine, only the 2nd draft slot is within 1½% of the best draft slot.

 

[fantasyplayer]

These last two posts are clearer. Thank you.

 

[Sleeper 43]

This will go out of style faster than Beta-Max and Hyper-Color clothes. You can't try and change fantasy football because of 1 stud 's 1 season performance.....madness. Now this year when LT comes back to earth the 3rr leagues will be unjust.

 

[Anonymous Internet User]

the first OVERALL pick is disproportionately valuable. simple.

 

[pizzatyme]

This will go out of style faster than Beta-Max and Hyper-Color clothes. You can't try and change fantasy football because of 1 stud 's 1 season performance.....madness. Now this year when LT comes back to earth the 3rr leagues will be unjust.

Seems like I remember many a ff player salivating over Marshall Faulk, but my memory may be failing me...This issue has been with us for some time.

When National Games are making the change and selling out, there is a good reason for it. It is, when coupled with KDS, a more fair game for all.

Question, in a traditional 12-team league using a standard serpentine, where would 90%+ of the players prefer to draft? 1, 2, or 3? I think so. There is a reason for that, the top of the draft has a HUGE advantage!

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Could someone please give me an explanation as to why/how the 3rd round reversal draft is more fair than a serpentine. I've heard the explanation that the early picks (particulalry #1) gets who he wants at RB, that the importance of having 2 quality RBs affects the 2nd round and allows the early picks to get an elite player at another position early in the 3rd. I'm not sure I buy that though. Every team in the 2nd round has the same opportunity to grab the elite non-RB, but chooses to get a 2nd RB instead, one who is presumably forecast to produce more points than the early picks' RB2.Is there something that I'm missing?

You're not missing anything, it's a false speed bump placed in the draft to correct a "problem" known as the greatest FF season ever...LT2.The #1 Team has 4 players on their roster before the #14 or #12. Not good IMO.

Banzai Method has been around much longet the last year.Heck on this board you have numbers/math showing the difference from '05 (before '06 was played out) and the point adavantage associated with it.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

the first OVERALL pick is disproportionately valuable. simple.

And the closest another team can come to that value is at at pick #2... followed by pick #3 and so on.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

This will go out of style faster than Beta-Max and Hyper-Color clothes. You can't try and change fantasy football because of 1 stud 's 1 season performance.....madness. Now this year when LT comes back to earth the 3rr leagues will be unjust.

It could go out of style if the top 4 teams dont (once again, as they always have) dominate 75% of the winners from all the wcoff leagues.This is a big money league, with big time owners showing the broken serpentine method over and over and over.

If they only account for 20% of the winners, it may change the outlook.

I am willing to bet that the top 4 (33%) will acount for more then it share of winners (34%+).

As well as dominating the top 25 overall scorers as it always does (which is the mian objective, firts place overall).

NFFC made the change to 3RR, which still has an advantage of being up top (though smaller).

The Banzai Method is the next logical step in fantasy football drafting. Like the PC, DVD or the cellphone.

 

[-Crippler-]

You're thinking of draft picks as evenly spaced rungs on a ladder - which isn't case. If the 160 selections in a 10 team/16 round draft were represented as a 160 rung ladder - the bottom two rungs would be an inch apart and the top two rungs would be 4 feet apart in terms of relative value to each other.Reversing the 3rd round accounts for the diminishing gaps relative to the gaps of value there were in the 1st round.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

I was going to go into the names (3RR vs. 3RS) but let's not go there....

Flipping Round 3's order completely in a normal snake draft is the most equitable from a value standpoint, and it goes well beyond 2006 results.

I remember the "Big 3" discussions from several years running.... SA/LJ/LT2

 

[Sleeper 43]

I have heard a few making valid points and I appreciate the fantasy worlds constant pursuit in levelling the playing field.

BUT Fantasy Football is constantly evolving you cant keep chasing the newest thing based off of the most recent trends.

Sometimes you can try and tweak something too much.

I'm cautiously optimistic for the fantasy world and I hope it works out. Its just seems a little knee-jerk reaction for me.

 

[pizzatyme]

I have heard a few making valid points and I appreciate the fantasy worlds constant pursuit in levelling the playing field. BUT Fantasy Football is constantly evolving you cant keep chasing the newest thing based off of the most recent trends.Sometimes you can try and tweak something too much.I'm cautiously optimistic for the fantasy world and I hope it works out. Its just seems a little knee-jerk reaction for me.

So, if the FF world is constantly evolving, why can't how we draft the players?

 

[Sleeper 43]

I have heard a few making valid points and I appreciate the fantasy worlds constant pursuit in levelling the playing field. BUT Fantasy Football is constantly evolving you cant keep chasing the newest thing based off of the most recent trends.Sometimes you can try and tweak something too much.I'm cautiously optimistic for the fantasy world and I hope it works out. Its just seems a little knee-jerk reaction for me.

So, if the FF world is constantly evolving, why can't how we draft the players?

Consistency and continuity is good for Fantasy Football. I'd imagine it would be frustrating constantly changing. There could be a day where theres no such thing as a "standard scoring system"If everyone goes in their own directions for scoring and setup I think it hurts the growth of the game.Maybe I'm just resistant to change......

 

[Buckna]

This will go out of style faster than Beta-Max and Hyper-Color clothes. You can't try and change fantasy football because of 1 stud 's 1 season performance.....madness. Now this year when LT comes back to earth the 3rr leagues will be unjust.

See also...Shaun Alexander 2005

Priest Holmes 2002 & 2003

Marshall Faulk 1999, 2000, & 2001

All consensus top 3 (if not #1 overall) preseason picks that finished as the overall #1 fantasy player by leaps and bounds.

Fantasy success is much more highly correlated with a high pick. High picks don't win all the time, but they win a disproportionate amount of the time. The 3RR is an attempt to correct for this. If I was spending a lot of money on an entry fee, I'd want as even a playing field as possible.

 

[pizzatyme]

I have heard a few making valid points and I appreciate the fantasy worlds constant pursuit in levelling the playing field. BUT Fantasy Football is constantly evolving you cant keep chasing the newest thing based off of the most recent trends.Sometimes you can try and tweak something too much.I'm cautiously optimistic for the fantasy world and I hope it works out. Its just seems a little knee-jerk reaction for me.

So, if the FF world is constantly evolving, why can't how we draft the players?

Consistency and continuity is good for Fantasy Football. I'd imagine it would be frustrating constantly changing. There could be a day where theres no such thing as a "standard scoring system"If everyone goes in their own directions for scoring and setup I think it hurts the growth of the game.Maybe I'm just resistant to change......

 

[SharkBait]

In a PPR league I'd be begging for that 12 spot...

 

[Sleeper 43]

This will go out of style faster than Beta-Max and Hyper-Color clothes. You can't try and change fantasy football because of 1 stud 's 1 season performance.....madness. Now this year when LT comes back to earth the 3rr leagues will be unjust.

See also...Shaun Alexander 2005

Priest Holmes 2002 & 2003

Marshall Faulk 1999, 2000, & 2001

All consensus top 3 (if not #1 overall) preseason picks that finished as the overall #1 fantasy player by leaps and bounds.

Fantasy success is much more highly correlated with a high pick. High picks don't win all the time, but they win a disproportionate amount of the time. The 3RR is an attempt to correct for this. If I was spending a lot of money on an entry fee, I'd want as even a playing field as possible.

Could the statistics also be a result of it not being such a cut and dry decision to draft said players in the late 1st vs the top 3 and puts more responsibility on the drafter.Is it possible depending on the skill level of the owners drafting at the end of the 1st , that they can still control there own destiny and win? Its these type of questions that we cant parse data for to make a better

judgement call.

I'd imagine you have a couple guys at the end of the 1st and a couple guys with your 2nd where every year you could have beatin the man with the 1.1.

I guess im suggesting that the guys with the 1.1 -1.3 have no brainers and that alone lifts there odds vs those that NEED to make shark like decisions.

The way 3RR stands... if your a confident shark why wouldn't you want the 1.12 ?

Sorry if im rambling.

 

[pizzatyme]

This will go out of style faster than Beta-Max and Hyper-Color clothes. You can't try and change fantasy football because of 1 stud 's 1 season performance.....madness. Now this year when LT comes back to earth the 3rr leagues will be unjust.

See also...Shaun Alexander 2005

Priest Holmes 2002 & 2003

Marshall Faulk 1999, 2000, & 2001

All consensus top 3 (if not #1 overall) preseason picks that finished as the overall #1 fantasy player by leaps and bounds.

Fantasy success is much more highly correlated with a high pick. High picks don't win all the time, but they win a disproportionate amount of the time. The 3RR is an attempt to correct for this. If I was spending a lot of money on an entry fee, I'd want as even a playing field as possible.

Could the statistics also be a result of it not being such a cut and dry decision to draft said players in the late 1st vs the top 3 and puts more responsibility on the drafter.Is it possible depending on the skill level of the owners drafting at the end of the 1st , that they can still control there own destiny and win? Its these type of questions that we cant parse data for to make a better

judgement call.

I'd imagine you have a couple guys at the end of the 1st and a couple guys with your 2nd where every year you could have beatin the man with the 1.1.

I guess im suggesting that the guys with the 1.1 -1.3 have no brainers and that alone lifts there odds vs those that NEED to make shark like decisions.

The way 3RR stands... if your a confident shark why wouldn't you want the 1.12 ?

Sorry if im rambling.

I'm a confident shark-in-training and I'm in the NFFC Main Event with the 1.13 pick. It was my 7th KDS preference, which means I could have drafterd anywhere I wanted after 1.06. I took 1.13 in hopes of getting someone who slips to me, like a Rudi or Henry. Then add the $$$ picks @ 2.02 and 3.02.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

You are not rambling Sleeper 43. You are just trying to make sense of it, which is what you should do.

But take it a step further. Some sharks could win in a draft that went 1-12 every round and they were stuck at 12. But thats unfair, as is a standard serp.

We are talking about making it as fair as possible before the draft even starts.

And doing so with the slightest of changes.

Thus with the Banzai Method you change only one simple thing, flopping the 3rd round and leaving everything else the same.

In the 3RR (as it is in NFFC) they actually change every round of the draft from the 3rd on.

As I posted before to someone asking a similar question...

QUOTE(Dirty Weasel @ Jun 14 2007, 11:43 PM)

If you're on this site this time of the year, you are probably a shark in your league. Some people just take FF more seriosuly than others. I visit my MFL keeper site about once a day right now, and 7 of the 12 owners haven't even been to the site since the season ended last year. Those 7 no-shows make up 6 of the first 7 picks in our draft. Creating the most even draft you can only counts when the owners are all active.

But besides all the possible variables you want to throw out there... why not have the initial placement as fair as possible. And then let variables do whatever it is they want to do. Personally, I find it unacceptable that Dirty Weasels shark-status is trumped by some slouch who simply got a top pick. And furthermore, its even worse when its a league full of tough-solid competition, yet the Faulks and Emmits of the world routinely trump any owner "ability" and totalty tilt an otherwise even playing field.

 

[Challenge Everything]

Using the pick calculator gives a false sense of security because those are, essentially, fictitious numbers. Just because Tomlinson is drafted at #1 does not mean he will finish as the #1. So, like another poster said this is just a speed bump to lessen the supposed impact a team may have just by drafting Tomlinson.

Other notables that were far and away the best picks at #1 recently are Faulk, James, Holmes, Alexander, and now Tomlinson. Why is it after Tomlinson's season last year these new attempts at fairness in the draft is now being realized? Makes no sense... just a hiccup to give the people at the end of drafts a false sense of security.

 

[oukurt]

This will go out of style faster than Beta-Max and Hyper-Color clothes. You can't try and change fantasy football because of 1 stud 's 1 season performance.....madness. Now this year when LT comes back to earth the 3rr leagues will be unjust.

Many said the same about ppr leagues. Get out of the dark ages, brother.

 

[pizzatyme]

This will go out of style faster than Beta-Max and Hyper-Color clothes. You can't try and change fantasy football because of 1 stud 's 1 season performance.....madness. Now this year when LT comes back to earth the 3rr leagues will be unjust.

Many said the same about ppr leagues. Get out of the dark ages, brother.

And auction leagues, and...and...Peeps are just resistant to change. Those that change will enjoy it more.

 

[Mario Kart]

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...mp;hl=formation

The above link is the ONLY way to counter balance the drafting "advantage" the higher picks "have." The problems, whether people want to believe them or not, are not with the drafting but instead with the vanilla starting requirements that everybody has to abide by. Having the same starting requirements for leagues with 12 teams or larger makes no sense.

To summarize the linked article/thread above the following starting requirements to make leagues more fair is as follows:

Option 1 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 K, and 1 Def

Option 2 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 2 WR, 2 TE, 1 K, and 1 Def

Option 3 - Start 1 QB, 2 RB, 1 WR, 2 TE, 1 K, and 1 Def

Option 4 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 4 WR, 0 TE, 1 K, and 1 Def

I whole heartedly believe if a league incorporated the above starting requirements... no body would complain about a normal snake draft simply because an owner at the back end of the draft would be able to properly draft towards one of four formations instead of only one formation.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

The above link is the ONLY way to counter balance the drafting "advantage" the higher picks "have."

It's already been shown that the Banzai Method puts the scoring to such an almost even starting position... the best drafters will win, not the draft positioning.Do you have any math to show for your belief?

Option 1 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 K,

Option 2 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 2 WR, 2 TE, 1 K,

Option 3 - Start 1 QB, 2 RB, 1 WR, 2 TE, 1 K,

Option 4 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 4 WR, 0 TE, 1 K,

I know leagues that allow those first three lineups, changing out a WR for TE (4) will make up the 100+ point differential in the first?

I dont see how my want (advantage) of Eric Dickerson or Emmit Smith would change.

 

[Mario Kart]

The above link is the ONLY way to counter balance the drafting "advantage" the higher picks "have."

It's already been shown that the Banzai Method puts the scoring to such an almost even starting position... the best drafters will win, not the draft positioning.Do you have any math to show for your belief?

Option 1 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 K,

Option 2 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 2 WR, 2 TE, 1 K,

Option 3 - Start 1 QB, 2 RB, 1 WR, 2 TE, 1 K,

Option 4 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 4 WR, 0 TE, 1 K,

I know leagues that allow those first three lineups, changing out a WR for TE (4) will make up the 100+ point differential in the first?

I dont see how my want (advantage) of Eric Dickerson or Emmit Smith would change.

Math does not need to be applied here. In normal snake drafting a person at the end of the 1st round is at a "supposedly" disadvantage. The math being used to justify the 3rr drafting is not exact anyway. So, to use math to justify anything to use prior years numbers for justification of this years drafting is not applicable.The problem in snake drafts and 3rr drafts is not the draft. The problem is that teams have to draft in order to fill in the same exact starting requirements to fit into the system. That is the problem and can be easily remedied.

People are only complaining due to the fact 2 RBs need to be started. That is, again, the problem, not the drafting style. In a Formation Based league the drafters at the end can draft with the idea of using 3 or even 4 WRs instead of "having" to draft a RB to fill in the need. By drafting in the Formation Based the 12th drafter will have an advantage at the WR position, or TE position over the #1 drafter. With the snake drafts or even the 3rr drafts there really only is one way to draft because twelve teams have to fit into one mold. Opening up the formations opens up the draftying styles/techniqes by each drafter.

 

[TinHat]

easy

The difference between the 1st and last pick of the 1st round is more than the difference between the first and last picks of the 20th round (would you trade 1st overall and your 20th round pick for 12th overall and his 20th round pick? or even 11th overall and a 20th for 12th overall and a 20th?)

It stands to reason that the value differential in the 1st > value differential in the 2nd > value differential in the 3rd and so on

"broken serpentine" as I like to call it makes it more even.

I remember demonstrating this using auction values under another handle a few years back.

 

[pizzatyme]

The above link is the ONLY way to counter balance the drafting "advantage" the higher picks "have."

It's already been shown that the Banzai Method puts the scoring to such an almost even starting position... the best drafters will win, not the draft positioning.Do you have any math to show for your belief?

Option 1 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 K,

Option 2 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 2 WR, 2 TE, 1 K,

Option 3 - Start 1 QB, 2 RB, 1 WR, 2 TE, 1 K,

Option 4 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 4 WR, 0 TE, 1 K,

I know leagues that allow those first three lineups, changing out a WR for TE (4) will make up the 100+ point differential in the first?

I dont see how my want (advantage) of Eric Dickerson or Emmit Smith would change.

Math does not need to be applied here. In normal snake drafting a person at the end of the 1st round is at a "supposedly" disadvantage. The math being used to justify the 3rr drafting is not exact anyway. So, to use math to justify anything to use prior years numbers for justification of this years drafting is not applicable.The problem in snake drafts and 3rr drafts is not the draft. The problem is that teams have to draft in order to fill in the same exact starting requirements to fit into the system. That is the problem and can be easily remedied.

People are only complaining due to the fact 2 RBs need to be started. That is, again, the problem, not the drafting style. In a Formation Based league the drafters at the end can draft with the idea of using 3 or even 4 WRs instead of "having" to draft a RB to fill in the need. By drafting in the Formation Based the 12th drafter will have an advantage at the WR position, or TE position over the #1 drafter. With the snake drafts or even the 3rr drafts there really only is one way to draft because twelve teams have to fit into one mold. Opening up the formations opens up the draftying styles/techniqes by each drafter.

I would still be complaining if 2 RBs weren't required.In my main big money league, they use a flex. This does what you're suggesting to an extent. It is still not a fair draft to just go regular serpentine.

Fast forward 10 years, Auction, 3RR, and Bonzai will be the norm, not the exception. IMHO

 

[BigSteelThrill]

The above link is the ONLY way to counter balance the drafting "advantage" the higher picks "have."

It's already been shown that the Banzai Method puts the scoring to such an almost even starting position... the best drafters will win, not the draft positioning.Do you have any math to show for your belief?

Option 1 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 K,

Option 2 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 2 WR, 2 TE, 1 K,

Option 3 - Start 1 QB, 2 RB, 1 WR, 2 TE, 1 K,

Option 4 - Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 4 WR, 0 TE, 1 K,

I know leagues that allow those first three lineups, changing out a WR for TE (4) will make up the 100+ point differential in the first?

I dont see how my want (advantage) of Eric Dickerson or Emmit Smith would change.

Math does not need to be applied here. In normal snake drafting a person at the end of the 1st round is at a "supposedly" disadvantage. The math being used to justify the 3rr drafting is not exact anyway. So, to use math to justify anything to use prior years numbers for justification of this years drafting is not applicable.The problem in snake drafts and 3rr drafts is not the draft. The problem is that teams have to draft in order to fill in the same exact starting requirements to fit into the system. That is the problem and can be easily remedied.

People are only complaining due to the fact 2 RBs need to be started. That is, again, the problem, not the drafting style. In a Formation Based league the drafters at the end can draft with the idea of using 3 or even 4 WRs instead of "having" to draft a RB to fill in the need. By drafting in the Formation Based the 12th drafter will have an advantage at the WR position, or TE position over the #1 drafter. With the snake drafts or even the 3rr drafts there really only is one way to draft because twelve teams have to fit into one mold. Opening up the formations opens up the draftying styles/techniqes by each drafter.

Im in leagues right now that allow the top 3 options you stated, it doesnt change a thing. Drafting early is a massive advantage.***And every single league I have been in for the past 4 years (or so) does NOT need 2RBs. That was another change that caught on and was solid.

***Actually thats not true, all the wcoff satellite leagues needed 2 RBs - and a max of 3. But all my live drafts did not need 2RBs.

 

[FantasyTrader]

As with almost every other lengthy thread in the Shark Pool, an easily answered question was answered well, and then answered 90% correctly (leaving 10% ignorance to be exploited) and subsequently responded to with 80% accuracy (leaving 20% ignorance to be exploited) responded to with 70% accuracy...etc. etc.

 

[Mario Kart]

Im in leagues right now that allow the top 3 options you stated, it doesnt change a thing. Drafting early is a massive advantage.***And every single league I have been in for the past 4 years (or so) does NOT need 2RBs. That was another change that caught on and was solid.***Actually thats not true, all the wcoff satellite leagues needed 2 RBs - and a max of 3. But all my live drafts did not need 2RBs.

I would like to see some of the drafts that were completed with the three formations as possibilities. Reason I say this is because in leagues with more formations possible the "need" or "advantage" of the RB position is lessened. Having to only start one eliminates, mostly if not all, the advantage of other leagues.To me, different formation are, should be the only way to go. Granted, all math being talked about here is hypothetical as no numbers can be absolute but the VBD app is a more appropriate response to this matter than using the pick calculator. Why? Type into the VBD app only needing to start 1 rb with standard scoring and see how many other players are riddled throughout the 1st and 2nd rounds. Yes, Tomlinson and Jackson, this year, have higher values than everyone else, however other players such as WR, QB, and TE's are in the mix now. Which is the way it should be.Cannot remember but someone mentioned something about a Flex position. Having a Flex position negates any formation possibility a league may have. If anything, having a Flex is a dumb idea and further increases the value of the RB position unless the flex is between the WR and TE position only.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I guess I missed the formations as the "only" ones possible.

Was counting them as a flex. When in fact, there is a penalty to start 2RB and that is the 1WR limitation.

As I had stated, all three of those bolded options were possible, but it wasnt just those three.

Which is what you are getting at. Limiting it to those options alone. (I find it extremely limited, though it may prove fair)

Have you gotten any leagues to do this?

Maybe thats best served for your original thread, to avoid a hijacking.

 

[CalBear]

Im in leagues right now that allow the top 3 options you stated, it doesnt change a thing. Drafting early is a massive advantage.***And every single league I have been in for the past 4 years (or so) does NOT need 2RBs. That was another change that caught on and was solid.***Actually thats not true, all the wcoff satellite leagues needed 2 RBs - and a max of 3. But all my live drafts did not need 2RBs.

I would like to see some of the drafts that were completed with the three formations as possibilities. Reason I say this is because in leagues with more formations possible the "need" or "advantage" of the RB position is lessened. Having to only start one eliminates, mostly if not all, the advantage of other leagues.

Tomlinson scored 427 fantasy points in 2006. LJ scored 334 (93 less), SJ scored 329, Gore scored 272 (57 less). There's no way to change your lineups to make the gaps between LT and LJ, and between SJ and Gore, less impactful. Those gaps are huge in fantasy terms. 93 points was the difference between Marvin Harrison and Mushin Muhammad. 57 points was the difference between Carson Palmer and Ben Roethlisberger.. RBs simply have a production curve that is shaped differently than WRs and QBs.Starting 1 RB mitigates the problem of Jamal Lewis being worth more than Peyton Manning, but it doesn't eliminate the problem of the top two or three RBs being worth a hell of a lot more than anyone else.

 

[houdini]

Using the pick calculator gives a false sense of security because those are, essentially, fictitious numbers.

Which is precisely why I started out my prior post with the following:

If you believe in the pick value calculator ...

They aren't actually fictitious, they are just one way (out of an essentially infinite number of possible ways) of valuing picks in relation to one another.

 

[Bri]

This will go out of style faster than Beta-Max and Hyper-Color clothes. You can't try and change fantasy football because of 1 stud 's 1 season performance.....madness. Now this year when LT comes back to earth the 3rr leagues will be unjust.

Seems like I remember many a ff player salivating over Marshall Faulk, but my memory may be failing me...This issue has been with us for some time.

Faulk, Warner, Priest....heck I remember Marino before "everyone" had passing TDs as 4 points, getting 6 for his. LT2 wasn't better than Marino gettin' 6.

 

[Mario Kart]

Im in leagues right now that allow the top 3 options you stated, it doesnt change a thing. Drafting early is a massive advantage.***And every single league I have been in for the past 4 years (or so) does NOT need 2RBs. That was another change that caught on and was solid.***Actually thats not true, all the wcoff satellite leagues needed 2 RBs - and a max of 3. But all my live drafts did not need 2RBs.

I would like to see some of the drafts that were completed with the three formations as possibilities. Reason I say this is because in leagues with more formations possible the "need" or "advantage" of the RB position is lessened. Having to only start one eliminates, mostly if not all, the advantage of other leagues.

Tomlinson scored 427 fantasy points in 2006. LJ scored 334 (93 less), SJ scored 329, Gore scored 272 (57 less). There's no way to change your lineups to make the gaps between LT and LJ, and between SJ and Gore, less impactful. Those gaps are huge in fantasy terms. 93 points was the difference between Marvin Harrison and Mushin Muhammad. 57 points was the difference between Carson Palmer and Ben Roethlisberger.. RBs simply have a production curve that is shaped differently than WRs and QBs.Starting 1 RB mitigates the problem of Jamal Lewis being worth more than Peyton Manning, but it doesn't eliminate the problem of the top two or three RBs being worth a hell of a lot more than anyone else.

Never denied the fact that the teams up top may have an advantage at the RB position scoring wise however they will be at a disadvantage at the WR, TE, and possibly QB scoring wise. The main point is that an owner picking in the later part of the round does not have to take a RB to satisfy the vanilla starting requirements. Instead they may opt to take a WR or TE in the mid/late first round and not be penalized because only having to start 1 RB limits their value. Check the VBD app for appropriate valuations of RB's when only starting one.There are ways to change the gaps in lineups... you actually spelled them out in your post. A team with Tomlinson could very well end up with a Muhammed being his #1 WR if he does not draft with the WR position in mind for a few rounds. That is not the goal of the Formation leagues though. The goal of the Formation leagues is to not limit the fantasy owner (you) into having to start one vanilla starting requirement... that is the ultimate limitation.I will post the first 4 rounds of a Formation draft... normal snake draft. Using the VBD app for the draft guide as well:

Round 1Ladan Tomlinson Steven Jackson Steve Smith Antonio Gates Chad Johnson Peyton Manning Marvin Harrison Reggie Wayne Torry Holt Reggie Bush Terrell Owens Brian WestbrookRound 2 TJ HoushmanzLarry Fitzgerald Roy WilliamsFrank GoreLarry JohnsonCarson PalmerJavon WalkerAnquan BoldinAndre JohnsonDonald Driver Lee EvansJoseph AddaiRound 3Todd Heap Marques Colston Jeremy Shockey Kellen Winslow Willie Parker Maurice Jones Tony Gonzalez Tom Brady Marc Bulger Drew Brees Plaxico Burress Calvin JohnsonRound 4Braylon EdwardsShaun AlexanderLavern ColesJerricho CotcheryDeion BranchSantana MossHines WardLaurence MaroneyRudi JohnsonTony RomoDonovan McNabbBen Roethlisberg

Notice anything?

 

[Tick]

FYI, this isn't a new trend. We implemented it in 1998 in my old work league.

 

[Mario Kart]

I guess I missed the formations as the "only" ones possible.Was counting them as a flex. When in fact, there is a penalty to start 2RB and that is the 1WR limitation.

Forgot to address this. It is not a penalty to only being allowed to start 1 WR. The benefit in starting a second RB as well as a second TE, may, outweigh the "penalty" of not being allowed to start the second WR. The focus of the formations was for realism as well. In a running formation normally there are 2 TEs on the field. This emulates that. In essence, the cost of starting a second RB is not having 2 WR on the field. The owner takes the chances of the second RB outscoring his other options given the other formations.

 

[The Jerk]

Using the pick calculator gives a false sense of security because those are, essentially, fictitious numbers.

Which is precisely why I started out my prior post with the following:

If you believe in the pick value calculator ...

They aren't actually fictitious, they are just one way (out of an essentially infinite number of possible ways) of valuing picks in relation to one another.

The pick calculator tries to quantify in numeric terms something that is inherently obvious to anyone who has participated in a fantasy draft, or who just pays attention to major professional sports drafts. Each pick in a draft is worth less than the previous pick. Therefore, having the first pick in round 1 is more valuable than the first pick in round 2, and so on. More importantly, the advantage gained by owning the first pick of a round decreases every round as well.While the exact numbers may be fictitious, the concept of value decreasing is not, and is in fact widely used in the NFL. Pro Football Weekly link Note that in the actual NFL draft, pick value declines much more steeply than in a FF draft.

Here's a more complete version of a pick value chart supposedly in current use: The Red Zone

I actually prefer a double serpentine draft to the third round reversal, as it has the additional benefit of making the draft less boring for those owners near the turns.

 

[lordofgun]

I think only reversing the third round is a bit too much of a "fairness" correction, so our league reverses the 3rd AND 4th rounds. The way to go, IMO.

 

[The Jerk]

I think only reversing the third round is a bit too much of a "fairness" correction, so our league reverses the 3rd AND 4th rounds. The way to go, IMO.

Another reason why I prefer double serpentine over third round reversal.I think the third round reversal requires more faith in the numbers coming from the pick value calculator, whereas double serpentine is more intuitive as benefit keeps swinging back and forth as the rounds progress and diminish in value.For those of you who might be new to these terms, double serpentine produces a draft that looks like this:Rounds 1, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 13, etc. picks are in this order: 1, 2, 3, ... 10, 11, 12 (if 12 team)Rounds 2, 3, 6, 7, 10, 11, 14, etc. picks are in this order: 12, 11, 10, ... 3, 2, 1So the first slot owner gets pick 1, 24, 36, 37, 49, 72, etc.And the 12th slot owner gets pck 12, 13, 25, 48, 60, 61, etc.

 

[Wilbur Wood]

Scoring & Format can also do much to level the playing field.

I am a big proponent of both the Super Flex (allows the Flex spot to by any position, including a 2nd QB or Defense). Also, make the PPR only applicable to WR/TEs and not RBs. Lastly, make sure that the D/ST scoring is "robust" (can score as much as top QB or RB).

Start 1 QB, 2 RBs , 4 WRs, 1 TE, 1 D, 1 K, 1 Super Flex in a 12 team league.

10 starting positions vs 7 or 8 reduces (doesn't eliminate) the benefit of pick 1.01.

The Super Flex allows a team at the back end of round 1 to go with a Manning/Brady duo and start both each week. Allows someone else to go with the Bears and Ravens D's and start both. A team with 5 stuly PPR WRs can do well.

I commish 2 leagues that are designed this way and has been a very level playing field even using a conventional serp draft. More strategy, more options, more depth == Less benefit to simply drafting LT and going on Auto Pilot.

 

[The Jerk]

Scoring & Format can also do much to level the playing field....I commish 2 leagues that are designed this way and has been a very level playing field even using a conventional serp draft. More strategy, more options, more depth == Less benefit to simply drafting LT and going on Auto Pilot.

I agree that scoring and format can also be leveling effects. However, I would still suggest that changing to a 3RR or double serpentine draft would achieve even greater competitive fairness.It's not like you have to choose only one or the other.

 

[OU#1]

I think only reversing the third round is a bit too much of a "fairness" correction, so our league reverses the 3rd AND 4th rounds. The way to go, IMO.

Another reason why I prefer double serpentine over third round reversal.I think the third round reversal requires more faith in the numbers coming from the pick value calculator, whereas double serpentine is more intuitive as benefit keeps swinging back and forth as the rounds progress and diminish in value.For those of you who might be new to these terms, double serpentine produces a draft that looks like this:Rounds 1, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 13, etc. picks are in this order: 1, 2, 3, ... 10, 11, 12 (if 12 team)Rounds 2, 3, 6, 7, 10, 11, 14, etc. picks are in this order: 12, 11, 10, ... 3, 2, 1So the first slot owner gets pick 1, 24, 36, 37, 49, 72, etc.And the 12th slot owner gets pck 12, 13, 25, 48, 60, 61, etc.

We used this format and I'm quite happy with the results. The teams seem to be evenly spread out, besides 1-2 guppies that just don't know how to draft to save their lives. Our league should be highly competitive this year.

 

[The Jerk]

I think only reversing the third round is a bit too much of a "fairness" correction, so our league reverses the 3rd AND 4th rounds. The way to go, IMO.

Another reason why I prefer double serpentine over third round reversal.I think the third round reversal requires more faith in the numbers coming from the pick value calculator, whereas double serpentine is more intuitive as benefit keeps swinging back and forth as the rounds progress and diminish in value.For those of you who might be new to these terms, double serpentine produces a draft that looks like this:Rounds 1, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 13, etc. picks are in this order: 1, 2, 3, ... 10, 11, 12 (if 12 team)Rounds 2, 3, 6, 7, 10, 11, 14, etc. picks are in this order: 12, 11, 10, ... 3, 2, 1So the first slot owner gets pick 1, 24, 36, 37, 49, 72, etc.And the 12th slot owner gets pck 12, 13, 25, 48, 60, 61, etc.

We used this format and I'm quite happy with the results. The teams seem to be evenly spread out, besides 1-2 guppies that just don't know how to draft to save their lives. Our league should be highly competitive this year. :(

Was this your first year with the double serpentine system?How difficult was it to convert the league to double serpentine?