8 year old girl unwelcome at Christian school for being a tomboy (1 Viewer)

[Scoresman]

Westboro is the Goodwin's Law of religion threads

Nazi Germany needed hitler to be vilified, but christianity does not need westboro for that.

 

[proninja]

Westboro is the Goodwin's Law of religion threads

Nazi Germany needed hitler to be vilified, but christianity does not need westboro for that.

You seem exactly like the sort of kind and reasonable person I enjoy debate with

 

[Rove!]

What is the verse and scripture for dress codes for 8 year olds?

Often in these stories, we see that there is more to the story than the knee-jerk headline. If that is not the case, then these folks are morons.

 

[Rove!]

Did any of you actually read the PDF letter?

Just read it, and it's pretty damning for the school.

 

[Pots]

Often in these stories, we see that there is more to the story than the knee-jerk headline.

I would say about 90% of the time that's the case. A lot of people here would like to just believe the headline's all there is to it, however. It's more fun to yell at the 'bigoted principles' that way.

 

[Scoresman]

Westboro is the Goodwin's Law of religion threads

Nazi Germany needed hitler to be vilified, but christianity does not need westboro for that.

You seem exactly like the sort of kind and reasonable person I enjoy debate with

I do not have a very fond view of religion.

 

[Rove!]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

I'm not sure anyone is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to expel the girl, or anyone else they choose.

Then what is notable about this story? I would think that many private Christian schools would make a habit out of expelling anyone "strange" or not allowing them in the first place. Parents who send their kids to these places are not really looking for diversity or anything that resembles open-minded attitudes.

Dunno Tim. What is notable about the Westboro Baptist church that we should have thread(s) on it? As far as I know they've never been accused of doing anything illegal. They just practice speech at funerals. Why should we even discuss it? Right?

I disagree.

WBC pushes the boundaries of speech and even infringes on the freedom of expression of those who wish to pay their respects and express their love and support for the deceased and their family. It's a freak show that plays games with the rules...

 

[Scoresman]

Often in these stories, we see that there is more to the story than the knee-jerk headline.

I would say about 90% of the time that's the case. A lot of people here would like to just believe the headline's all there is to it, however. It's more fun to yell at the 'bigoted principles' that way.

Please enlighten us about how the title of this particular article is misleading and how the school isn't really expelling a child because she's "different".

 

[Rove!]

Westboro is the Goodwin's Law of religion threads

Nazi Germany needed hitler to be vilified, but christianity does not need westboro for that.

You seem exactly like the sort of kind and reasonable person I enjoy debate with

I do not have a very fond view of religion.

I'm sure I could find many many examples of public schools making similarly bone-headed decisions. Does that change your view on public education or teachers?

 

[Rove!]

Often in these stories, we see that there is more to the story than the knee-jerk headline.

I would say about 90% of the time that's the case. A lot of people here would like to just believe the headline's all there is to it, however. It's more fun to yell at the 'bigoted principles' that way.

Please enlighten us about how the title of this particular article is misleading and how the school isn't really expelling a child because she's "different".

after reading the PDF, I would say that this is one those rare instances where the knee-jerkers are correct

 

[Scoresman]

Westboro is the Goodwin's Law of religion threads

Nazi Germany needed hitler to be vilified, but christianity does not need westboro for that.

You seem exactly like the sort of kind and reasonable person I enjoy debate with

I do not have a very fond view of religion.

I'm sure I could find many many examples of public schools making similarly bone-headed decisions. Does that change your view on public education or teachers?

Find an example of a public school doing this that isn't rooted in some sort of religious belief.

 

[Rove!]

Did any of you actually read the PDF letter?

You mean the one where the principal who I am sure has a PhD in psychology, or some other applicable science, has determined she is a girl regardless of her actual gender identity? Making him a backwards #######? Yeah I read it.

I'm mildly offended by this post as it presumes that certain behaviors are "boyish" and certain behaviors are "girlish" and that those who don't conform must have something wrong with them or have a different "gender identity" or "gender identity issues."

She's only eight for Pete's sake...

 

[pollardsvision]

Often in these stories, we see that there is more to the story than the knee-jerk headline.

I would say about 90% of the time that's the case. A lot of people here would like to just believe the headline's all there is to it, however. It's more fun to yell at the 'bigoted principles' that way.

There's almost always more to the story, and in the case, I was sure there had to be.

In this case, we have the school's side of the story in that letter. Or at least what they wanted the parents (and presumably the public) to know.

Their own side of the story here, in the most thoughtful response they could come up with, makes them sound terrible.

If there was a more legitimate reason (in the eyes of decent human beings) for this, you'd have have to think they would've given that reason.

 

[Hang 10]

Did any of you actually read the PDF letter?

You mean the one where the principal who I am sure has a PhD in psychology, or some other applicable science, has determined she is a girl regardless of her actual gender identity? Making him a backwards #######? Yeah I read it.

 

[T Bell]

If she dresses like a female in ancient Israel, would the school have any reason to object?

 

[joffer]

Did any of you actually read the PDF letter?

I did. It's sad and pathetic.

 

[joffer]

Does Virginia have a charter school program?

 

[joffer]

I was wondering who was going to start the daily Christian-bashing thread. Good thing pollardvision is on the case!

This thread is bashing stupid people who happen to be Christians. Try to keep up.

 

[jonessed]

I don't agree, but it's their school.

It's in the same vein as zero tolerance policies. Schools need to have flexibility.

 

[matuski]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

You can do all those things without religion as an excuse.

It would be a lot harder to make excuses for behavior like that in the OP without religion as a shield.

 

[jonessed]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

You can do all those things without religion as an excuse.

It would be a lot harder to make excuses for behavior like that in the OP without religion as a shield.

Not really. Excuses are easy. She was different and was upsetting the school environment so they kicked her out. Pretty simple.

A lot of educators are lazy and don't like dealing with complexities. It's not a problem unique to religious schools.

 

[AAABatteries]

Westboro is the Goodwin's Law of religion threads

Nazi Germany needed hitler to be vilified, but christianity does not need westboro for that.

You seem exactly like the sort of kind and reasonable person I enjoy debate with

I do not have a very fond view of religion.

Not sure if you've heard, but there's a lot of feet washing in the Bible. Just saying.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Would there be so much disagreement if the girl had been reprimanded for dressing provocatively?

 

[Cjw_55106]

For those not understanding why religion was brought into this....seriously?

Some of you seem to know more about what was going on here than I do. Reading the PDF, I dont know what the girl was doing besides somehow acting or dressing like a boy. That being said, I don't have enough information to criticize the school.

 

[Riversco]

Isn't this like a dress code thing? We're upset at dress codes now?

 

[pollardsvision]

Would there be so much disagreement if the girl had been reprimanded for dressing provocatively?

Isn't this like a dress code thing? We're upset at dress codes now?

If it were a dress code thing (like dressing provocatively), you'd think the school would've mentioned the part of the dress code the girl violated.

Surely, if it were as simple as "girls can't wear pants", they would've pointed to that and avoided this PR disaster.

But they didn't. They just mentioned the parts of the Bible referring to sexual morality, homosexuality, and alternative sexual identity. They didn't give much in the way of how this girl might've violated those things.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

You can do all those things without religion as an excuse.

It would be a lot harder to make excuses for behavior like that in the OP without religion as a shield.

Seriously? People pick on other people who are different all the time, regardless of religious beliefs. If there's one thing that's universal to K-12 schools, its that.

 

[Riversco]

Would there be so much disagreement if the girl had been reprimanded for dressing provocatively?

Isn't this like a dress code thing? We're upset at dress codes now?

If it were a dress code thing (like dressing provocatively), you'd think the school would've mentioned the part of the dress code the girl violated.

Surely, if it were as simple as "girls can't wear pants", they would've pointed to that and avoided this PR disaster.

But they didn't. They just mentioned the parts of the Bible referring to sexual morality, homosexuality, and alternative sexual identity. They didn't give much in the way of how this girl might've violated those things.

A religious school mentions religion and you find it odd?

 

[pollardsvision]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

You can do all those things without religion as an excuse.

It would be a lot harder to make excuses for behavior like that in the OP without religion as a shield.

Seriously? People pick on other people who are different all the time, regardless of religious beliefs. If there's one thing that's universal to K-12 schools, its that.

Right, that's whats so sad about this.

This school is basically using the Bible to justify "protecting" the mean kids. There's obviously a limit to how much you can help the odd kid getting picked on, but asking her to leave because she offends our little ####heads' sensibility seems particularly cruel.

Or they really believe that crap spewed in the letter, which is just nuts.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Isn't this like a dress code thing? We're upset at dress codes now?

Actually yes!

ETA: Was there a thread on this?

School bans student for shaving her head in support cancer-stricken best friendAs it was yesterday's news.

 

[pollardsvision]

Would there be so much disagreement if the girl had been reprimanded for dressing provocatively?

Isn't this like a dress code thing? We're upset at dress codes now?

If it were a dress code thing (like dressing provocatively), you'd think the school would've mentioned the part of the dress code the girl violated.

Surely, if it were as simple as "girls can't wear pants", they would've pointed to that and avoided this PR disaster.

But they didn't. They just mentioned the parts of the Bible referring to sexual morality, homosexuality, and alternative sexual identity. They didn't give much in the way of how this girl might've violated those things.

A religious school mentions religion and you find it odd?

No, I don't find that odd.

What I find odd is that somehow this 8 year old girl being hard on the eyes and wearing pants gets equated with being homosexual, sexually immoral, or having an alternative gender identity ( though the girl claims to be a girl).

 

[matuski]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

You can do all those things without religion as an excuse.

It would be a lot harder to make excuses for behavior like that in the OP without religion as a shield.

Not really. Excuses are easy. She was different and was upsetting the school environment so they kicked her out. Pretty simple.

A lot of educators are lazy and don't like dealing with complexities. It's not a problem unique to religious schools.

You are 100% correct on the underlying human weakness that is the root cause. You completely whiffed on religion's role as a tool in this game.

Religion attempts to place a barrier before those excuses to prevent reasonable inspection and logical challenges. If you just say she was upsetting the school, I can ask you to show me and you are right or you are wrong - either way we can examine it. If you say the Bible (a god) says so, you just derailed the entire issue with cockamamie garbage in an effort to NOT be subjected to reasonable inspection and logical challenges.

 

[matuski]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

You can do all those things without religion as an excuse.

It would be a lot harder to make excuses for behavior like that in the OP without religion as a shield.

Seriously? People pick on other people who are different all the time, regardless of religious beliefs. If there's one thing that's universal to K-12 schools, its that.

See above.

 

[Riversco]

Would there be so much disagreement if the girl had been reprimanded for dressing provocatively?

Isn't this like a dress code thing? We're upset at dress codes now?

If it were a dress code thing (like dressing provocatively), you'd think the school would've mentioned the part of the dress code the girl violated.

Surely, if it were as simple as "girls can't wear pants", they would've pointed to that and avoided this PR disaster.

But they didn't. They just mentioned the parts of the Bible referring to sexual morality, homosexuality, and alternative sexual identity. They didn't give much in the way of how this girl might've violated those things.

A religious school mentions religion and you find it odd?

No, I don't find that odd.

What I find odd is that somehow this 8 year old girl being hard on the eyes and wearing pants gets equated with being homosexual, sexually immoral, or having an alternative gender identity ( though the girl claims to be a girl).

Up until very recently, girls in almost every religious school were not allowed to wear pants. They wore dresses / skirts. Whatever reasoning they have, its not surprising to get expelled for not following that rule in a religious school.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Did any of you actually read the PDF letter?

You mean the one where the principal who I am sure has a PhD in psychology, or some other applicable science, has determined she is a girl regardless of her actual gender identity? Making him a backwards #######? Yeah I read it.

If an 8 year old female is unsure about her gender identity do you provide any guidance? Therapy? etc... or do you just let her figure it out?

Normally I'd guess that is why the girl is at this school - therapy and guidance as her parents' try to "save her". But that doesn't seem to be the case in this instance.

 

[pollardsvision]

Would there be so much disagreement if the girl had been reprimanded for dressing provocatively?

Isn't this like a dress code thing? We're upset at dress codes now?

If it were a dress code thing (like dressing provocatively), you'd think the school would've mentioned the part of the dress code the girl violated.

Surely, if it were as simple as "girls can't wear pants", they would've pointed to that and avoided this PR disaster.

But they didn't. They just mentioned the parts of the Bible referring to sexual morality, homosexuality, and alternative sexual identity. They didn't give much in the way of how this girl might've violated those things.

A religious school mentions religion and you find it odd?

No, I don't find that odd.

What I find odd is that somehow this 8 year old girl being hard on the eyes and wearing pants gets equated with being homosexual, sexually immoral, or having an alternative gender identity ( though the girl claims to be a girl).

Up until very recently, girls in almost every religious school were not allowed to wear pants. They wore dresses / skirts. Whatever reasoning they have, its not surprising to get expelled for not following that rule in a religious school.

Again, if this were about violating the dress code, it wouldn't be a story.

Now, the marketing and PR department for the Baptist Church has fallen on hard times over the past few decades, but I still have confidence they would've figured out to use the dress code as a way out of this situation if it were appropriate.

 

[Riversco]

That's the problem. We expect every grade school to have a world class PR department. How about giving them some leeway instead. Its a grade school.

 

[Riversco]

The other option is to expect that the PR department of every grade school is amazing. Never gonna happen though, so have fun driving yourself nuts with these kinds of stories in that case.

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

Last week Grand Junction Colorado a girl was suspended for shaving her head in support of her friend undergoing chemotherapy. Distracting in class. Stupidity all over in many different forms.

 

[Guest]

Odd. Most of the private schools I am familiar with love "tomboys". They are the best athletes. Brittney Griner went to Baylor.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Seems like people will get faux-outraged over anything these days.

 

[Short Corner]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

Not a fan of Cliff's anti-religious crusade, but I should point out that Hamas has food drives, homeless shelters, and orphanages. But they're still an evil insane terrorist organization.

So maybe we shouldn't just lump "religion" into one big pile?

I think the point is that religions shouldn't brag about having food drives and homeless shelters as if this is proof of their excellence. Man has a basic tendency to take care of those of their own that are in sore straits while at the same time slaughtering those that they disagree with. The US, including most religious people in the US, is no exception. (with any of the wars fought in the 20th-21st century as proof of the previous statement.)

 

[Cliff Clavin]

They quoted Leviticus in the PDF. I assume they have a dress code following Leviticus 19:19? I mean, they wouldn't be picking and choosing, would they?

 

[Riversco]

A day care in North Dakota just released a poorly worded PR statement. I want a 10-page FFA thread on my desk by this afternoon.

 

[Jayrok]

"We believe that unless Sunnie as well as her family clearly understand that God has made her female and her dress and behavior need to follow suit with her God-ordained identity...."

It seems the school has more concern with the child's behavior than her dress/appearance. The Bible passages referenced in the letter deal with sexual immorality. Maybe she displayed homosexual behavior in some form, or maybe made another girl uncomfortable, etc. The letter doesn't say.

It's a private Christian school. Why can't they deny admission if they feel an applicant doesn't meet their published requirements? Seems there's more to the story.

If the actions are based solely on a tomboy appearance, then there shouldn't be any female teachers or students in the school that has any type of short hair style. Because that is not Biblical either. Wouldn't look good for them to be hypocritical.

 

[beavers]

Absolutely disgusting.

I was a tomboy growing up so this is just very sad to me. She has friends at the school and given that she's prepubescent, how does she even know her sexual identity? It seems that the school decided to kick her out since she'll begin puberty within the next couple of years ... And automatically, she'll realize that she's a lesbian.

Speaking from experience, it doesn't work that way. In fact, even though I was a tomboy, I dated a man for 3 years in high school. It wasn't until college until I discovered my sexuality. Shame on this school. As a parent, I encourage my daughter to be who she is. I have such the girly girl daughter ... Into princesses, dresses, fashion, hair etc. This isn't my thing, but I encourage her to be who she is ... Essentially, this school is doing the opposite for fear that eventually, she'll come out as a lesbian. Shame on them and if my child was a member of this school, I would remove her immediately.

 

[Jayrok]

Shame on them and if my child was a member of this school, I would remove her immediately.

Well this is all the school wants.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

You can do all those things without religion as an excuse.

It would be a lot harder to make excuses for behavior like that in the OP without religion as a shield.

Not really. Excuses are easy. She was different and was upsetting the school environment so they kicked her out. Pretty simple.

A lot of educators are lazy and don't like dealing with complexities. It's not a problem unique to religious schools.

You are 100% correct on the underlying human weakness that is the root cause. You completely whiffed on religion's role as a tool in this game.

Religion attempts to place a barrier before those excuses to prevent reasonable inspection and logical challenges. If you just say she was upsetting the school, I can ask you to show me and you are right or you are wrong - either way we can examine it. If you say the Bible (a god) says so, you just derailed the entire issue with cockamamie garbage in an effort to NOT be subjected to reasonable inspection and logical challenges.

And that's where food drives and stuff like that come back into play. It's dishonest to blame religion when it encourages people to behave badly (like in this case) while brushing aside as irrelevant when it encourages people to behave well (food drives).

 

[msommer]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

And the wars. Let's not forget the wars, the discrimination, the bigotry.

 

[pollardsvision]

"We believe that unless Sunnie as well as her family clearly understand that God has made her female and her dress and behavior need to follow suit with her God-ordained identity...."

It seems the school has more concern with the child's behavior than her dress/appearance. The Bible passages referenced in the letter deal with sexual immorality. Maybe she displayed homosexual behavior in some form, or maybe made another girl uncomfortable, etc. The letter doesn't say.

It's a private Christian school. Why can't they deny admission if they feel an applicant doesn't meet their published requirements? Seems there's more to the story.

If the actions are based solely on a tomboy appearance, then there shouldn't be any female teachers or students in the school that has any type of short hair style. Because that is not Biblical either. Wouldn't look good for them to be hypocritical.

They've said there's more to the story, and I don't doubt that.

I just can't figure out why, if there was some specific, disrupting or inappropriate behavior, they wouldn't have mentioned that. That's a very simple issue to bring up with the grandparents. If you are going to go there with this, I'd think you would mention some specific behaviors.

Somebody mentioned maybe protecting the girl by not mentioning a particular disturbing behavior, but this letter was to the parents. It wasn't meant for the public, and it was always the parents' choice to share it.

No reason to hold back, and it would be irresponsible not to share something that's legitimately a problem with the grandparents.