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9-year-old girl accidentally kills instructor with uzi (1 Viewer)

Otis said:
To make this crystal clear for the GunGuys:

- I have no problem with dad taking 15 year old Johnny out to shoot deer. I think it's completely and utterly stupid, but if someone else enjoys it, go for it.

- I have a problem with any culture that introduces small children to implements of violence, whether they be assault rifles, handguns, throwing stars, or anything else that is intended to inflict harm on other beings. That's a really, really twisted message to be sending to a 9 year old, regardless of whether it's what my Pa, and my Pa's Pa and General Lee did.

Those are the bright lines for me. Sorry if you guys disagree.
You do realize that 99% of the time, it's not the GunGuys that introduce them to these things, but rather television and the media, right? These kinds of things are so prevalent in every culture that it's basically inevitable. You can keep them from shooting a gun, but they're going to know about them. Even kids who have never shot a gun IRL love video games where they get to blast people.
Good point. I guess the solution is to introduce them at a young age to...doh
Not exactly what I was saying, :rolleyes: but you're smart enough to know that.

My point is that you have a lot of hatred towards people who have/use/enjoy guns when in reality, the "gun culture" is a lot more deply rooted in society. There are millions of people who are exposed to guns who have never held one in real life. Focusing on one little group who actually enjoy firearms for whatever reason (whether you agree or not) and blaming them is kind of ignoring the bigger picture.

For the record, I'm not saying that we should ignore it, or that it's OK to introduce youngsters to guns. Much like my view on gun control in general, I agree with the principal behind it all. I just have yet to find any solution or proposal that will actually work to get us to where we need to be.
Toy cowboy pistols and video games are a far cry from the gun culture that centers family activities around handling and shooting deadly weapons.
You have a serious problem over-reaching what people are saying. You started by posting about introducing people to weapons. I said that the larger culture is often the one that introduces people to weapons, not the GunGuys. Now you've backtracked and it sounds like you are saying that you think the only unacceptable "introduction" of firearms to small children is via real guns? i.e. it sounds like you're saying you don't have an issue with kids playing Grand Theft Auto and shooting hookers because that's not IRL.
We're really gonna make this about video games now?
Let me simplify since you're still not seeing the big issue and answer questions with questions...

You said "I have a problem with any culture that introduces small children to implements of violence, whether they be assault rifles, handguns, throwing stars, or anything else that is intended to inflict harm on other beings."

Are you saying that you think the only way children are introduced to guns is via real guns? If not, please explain...

 
Otis said:
To make this crystal clear for the GunGuys:

- I have no problem with dad taking 15 year old Johnny out to shoot deer. I think it's completely and utterly stupid, but if someone else enjoys it, go for it.

- I have a problem with any culture that introduces small children to implements of violence, whether they be assault rifles, handguns, throwing stars, or anything else that is intended to inflict harm on other beings. That's a really, really twisted message to be sending to a 9 year old, regardless of whether it's what my Pa, and my Pa's Pa and General Lee did.

Those are the bright lines for me. Sorry if you guys disagree.
You do realize that 99% of the time, it's not the GunGuys that introduce them to these things, but rather television and the media, right? These kinds of things are so prevalent in every culture that it's basically inevitable. You can keep them from shooting a gun, but they're going to know about them. Even kids who have never shot a gun IRL love video games where they get to blast people.
Good point. I guess the solution is to introduce them at a young age to...doh
Not exactly what I was saying, :rolleyes: but you're smart enough to know that.

My point is that you have a lot of hatred towards people who have/use/enjoy guns when in reality, the "gun culture" is a lot more deply rooted in society. There are millions of people who are exposed to guns who have never held one in real life. Focusing on one little group who actually enjoy firearms for whatever reason (whether you agree or not) and blaming them is kind of ignoring the bigger picture.

For the record, I'm not saying that we should ignore it, or that it's OK to introduce youngsters to guns. Much like my view on gun control in general, I agree with the principal behind it all. I just have yet to find any solution or proposal that will actually work to get us to where we need to be.
Toy cowboy pistols and video games are a far cry from the gun culture that centers family activities around handling and shooting deadly weapons.
You have a serious problem over-reaching what people are saying. You started by posting about introducing people to weapons. I said that the larger culture is often the one that introduces people to weapons, not the GunGuys. Now you've backtracked and it sounds like you are saying that you think the only unacceptable "introduction" of firearms to small children is via real guns? i.e. it sounds like you're saying you don't have an issue with kids playing Grand Theft Auto and shooting hookers because that's not IRL.
We're really gonna make this about video games now?
Let me simplify since you're still not seeing the big issue and answer questions with questions...

You said "I have a problem with any culture that introduces small children to implements of violence, whether they be assault rifles, handguns, throwing stars, or anything else that is intended to inflict harm on other beings."

Are you saying that you think the only way children are introduced to guns is via real guns? If not, please explain...
Of course I'm not sitting my 9 year old down in front of violent movies or video games, if that's what you're asking. These things are regulated and have ratings for a reason.

But I'm not even trying to go that far. When I said "introduce" I meant putting it in their hands. You want to go even further than I'm asking, and help maintain a children's innocence even longer by preventing her from seeing some of the other stuff at a young age? Great. I'm just at the threshold point of trying to keep you lunatics from putting actual weapons in their hands, supervised or otherwise.

 
I find it pretty ridiculous that gun advocates will denounce the idea of giving a nine year old an Uzi but will fight tooth and nail if someone actually suggests we make a law forbidding some of this stupid stuff from happening.
I seriously doubt any gun advocate would argue against a law that forbids 9 year olds from firing fully automatic, or even semi automatic weapons. The problem is, these laws that are proposed are never that narrow and usually far overreach their intention.
Totally disagree. I can't count the number of times I've heard someone say they are opposed to virtually any gun law because of the 'slippery slope' argument. I don't care how narrow the wording on a bill would be, the NRA and gun advocates would fight it.
NRA and "gun advocates" <> The average person who owns and shoots a gun. I wouldn't call any of us here hard-core NRA members. In fact, many of the GunGuys have specifically said that they hate these issues because of the Anti-gun protests AND the NRA's zero-tolerance for anything else.
:goodposting:
well, based on previous threads, there ARE some extreme NRA people in this forum: ATC1, TPW, and Mr. Two Cents come to mind. But so far none of them have posted in this thread.
 
I totally agree that hunters just like to kill. And they do it for the thrill of the kill. Same with fishermen. Or butterfly collectors. All vicious murders just getting high off of the thrill of killing. :no:
Exactly. I go fishing every few weekends. If I did it for the thrill of the kill, I'd have stopped a long time ago, because I'm horrible at it and rarely catch anything. I don't even like to eat any of the kinds of fish I would hypothetically catch.
Admit it. You fish for the thrill of the kill. When you pull that fish out of the water you can't wait to bash it's wiggling body repeatedly against a rock. Maybe even have a smoke and cackle as you pluck it's eyeballs out. You are a monster!

 
Just own it. People like to hunt because it's fun. Just stop with the noble pursuit bullcrap.
Jesus Christ, I'm not even a hunter but I sure do hope none of you anti hunting guys broke a leg climbing down from your high horse.
I agree with BOTH of the above truthfully. I don't hunt. I have zero problem with guns used responsibly. I don't have an issue with people who choose to hunt. Hunting is fun. It is also, as Cliff Clavin said, a means to an end. I know plenty of people who hunt for the economics of it. My mother grew up dirt poor. Her father hunted deer and squirrels so they could have meat over the winter. With that said, I think many who hunt do enjoy the act of shooting something. Is that a sin? I don't think so, but if you want to, cool.

To coyote5's post, I think the thing I see here that I don't like is that in general, I haven't seen the, as Otis said, GunGuys try and tell the "non-GunGuys" that they have to go get a gun and shoot something because they are missing out on the way of the world, but I have seen a lot of the opposite with people pushing their beliefs on others because they don't understand, can't relate, and weren't raised that way. All the "back-woods hick" talk is borderline prejudice in some ways. At a minimum, I think "elitist" is a good start. I think it was even quoted earlier that some of the anti-gun folks "don't understand" the love of guns. That's fine, but why must you protest it? I don't understand why anyone would want to live in the concrete jungle of a huge city, but millions do. To each their own. I don't feel the need to go call them out for it. Despite what many think, you don't have to be some cousin-loving hick to enjoy guns. You don't have to be dirt poor to enjoy hunting.

I'll never understand why people get so worked up over the beliefs of others.
:good posting:

 
Let me simplify since you're still not seeing the big issue and answer questions with questions...

You said "I have a problem with any culture that introduces small children to implements of violence, whether they be assault rifles, handguns, throwing stars, or anything else that is intended to inflict harm on other beings."

Are you saying that you think the only way children are introduced to guns is via real guns? If not, please explain...
Of course I'm not sitting my 9 year old down in front of violent movies or video games, if that's what you're asking. These things are regulated and have ratings for a reason.

But I'm not even trying to go that far. When I said "introduce" I meant putting it in their hands. You want to go even further than I'm asking, and help maintain a children's innocence even longer by preventing her from seeing some of the other stuff at a young age? Great. I'm just at the threshold point of trying to keep you lunatics from putting actual weapons in their hands, supervised or otherwise.
OK...then I guess our contention is over the word "introduce," because my use doesn't explicitly involve hands-on with guns, but rather with the concept. So OK. Clear there.

 
I totally agree that hunters just like to kill. And they do it for the thrill of the kill. Same with fishermen. Or butterfly collectors. All vicious murders just getting high off of the thrill of killing. :no:
Exactly. I go fishing every few weekends. If I did it for the thrill of the kill, I'd have stopped a long time ago, because I'm horrible at it and rarely catch anything. I don't even like to eat any of the kinds of fish I would hypothetically catch.
Admit it. You fish for the thrill of the kill. When you pull that fish out of the water you can't wait to bash it's wiggling body repeatedly against a rock. Maybe even have a smoke and cackle as you pluck it's eyeballs out. You are a monster!
As often as I go, I pity the poor fish I finally catch because it's going to have to feel the wrath of my pent up frustration from catching no fish for weeks. Oh, and before people get all worked up, I use lures, not worms, so none of god's creatures were harmed in my fishing.

 
Hunters like to kill animals. Period. All of those other things might be 100% true but that doesn't change the fact that hunters dig the thrill of ending another creatures life...for sport food.
:fishy:
100% not fishing. I've post this same opinion numerous times over the year. None of the other "reasons" really wash.
Exactly.
When you hypocrites go out and eat your tasty burger from the steer that was likely castrated with no anesthesia, had it's horns cut off with bolt cutters and was branded multiple times(again without anesthesia ) before it had it's throat slit and bled to death(or if it was lucky got a bolt to the brain) you can pat yourself on the back for just how much you give a rats ### about animals and how they are treated.
I come from a family of hunters and support the right to do so absolutely. But you're totally twisting the point. Many, many hunters are at least slightly dishonest about their reasoning for hunting. They give out platitudes about doing it for meat or to benefit the habitats/environment. Or my favorite, that without hunters the animals would die gruesome deaths due to overcrowding. But the reality is that the hunters want that thrill. When a hunter shoots a deer, it is rarely a somber moment where they take a moment to reflect on the life they just took. It's a celebration for having conquered. I can't spend five minutes at the Thanksgiving table without hearing story after story about the deer that was shot or just missed. It's never about pride for the amount of meat, it's about the size of the rack (isn't it always).

Just own it. People like to hunt because it's fun. Just stop with the noble pursuit bullcrap.
Can it be both? It's as much about the comradery as the "kill". :shrug: Even if it's not the intention of the hunter, there is a conservation element.

Stop deer hunting tomorrow, and the state governments will have to pay someone to control the deer population. Why spend money when people will pay to do the job for you?
I think it is both. But an awful lot of hunters don't like to admit to the latter. Like I said, I don't want to stop hunting. If there was such a proposal, I would fight it along with the hunters and I hate guns.

 
I find it pretty ridiculous that gun advocates will denounce the idea of giving a nine year old an Uzi but will fight tooth and nail if someone actually suggests we make a law forbidding some of this stupid stuff from happening.
:confused: Find me one person who has said that they think it was a GOOD idea for a 9-year old to shoot an Uzi in this situation? Not someone who is OK with adults having guns, but specifically a 9-year old shooting an Uzi like you mentioned...
Did you read my post? I specifically said that gun advocates denounce this.

I just find it ridiculous that those same people would fight the adoption of policy that would outlaw this from happening. I don't have any evidence to say that the NRA would fight a bill targeting this exact scenario but history tells me that they would.

 
I find it pretty ridiculous that gun advocates will denounce the idea of giving a nine year old an Uzi but will fight tooth and nail if someone actually suggests we make a law forbidding some of this stupid stuff from happening.
I seriously doubt any gun advocate would argue against a law that forbids 9 year olds from firing fully automatic, or even semi automatic weapons. The problem is, these laws that are proposed are never that narrow and usually far overreach their intention.
Totally disagree. I can't count the number of times I've heard someone say they are opposed to virtually any gun law because of the 'slippery slope' argument. I don't care how narrow the wording on a bill would be, the NRA and gun advocates would fight it.
NRA and "gun advocates" <> The average person who owns and shoots a gun. I wouldn't call any of us here hard-core NRA members. In fact, many of the GunGuys have specifically said that they hate these issues because of the Anti-gun protests AND the NRA's zero-tolerance for anything else.
I know the distinction and I don't conflate the two. I'm not disparaging rational gun owners. I'm disparaging the crappy organization that unfortunately has become the face of gun owners.

 
I find it pretty ridiculous that gun advocates will denounce the idea of giving a nine year old an Uzi but will fight tooth and nail if someone actually suggests we make a law forbidding some of this stupid stuff from happening.
:confused: Find me one person who has said that they think it was a GOOD idea for a 9-year old to shoot an Uzi in this situation? Not someone who is OK with adults having guns, but specifically a 9-year old shooting an Uzi like you mentioned...
Did you read my post? I specifically said that gun advocates denounce this.

I just find it ridiculous that those same people would fight the adoption of policy that would outlaw this from happening. I don't have any evidence to say that the NRA would fight a bill targeting this exact scenario but history tells me that they would.
I guess it was confusing to me. I read it as saying that gun advocates would denounce the idea of giving a 9 year-old an Uzi on one hand, but then on the other they'd fight a law prohibiting it. My point with that, as I interpreted it, was that I don't think anybody here (assuming this thread stays void of the die-hard NRA folks mentioned in another post) would be against legislation prohibiting 9 year-old's from shooting machine guns.

I get what you're saying though as it pertains to the NRA - They detest when something happens, but equally detest anything that might prevent it. In this specific scenario, I think a simple law could go a long way. You don't have the "guns are already out there" issue you have with many other proposed legislations as I don't think too many 9 year-olds have illegal guns stashed in their toy boxes.

 
Jesus Christ, I'm not even a hunter but I sure do hope none of you anti hunting guys broke a leg

climbing down from your high horse.
FTR I never said I was anti-hunting...because I'm not.
Same here. I said I think it's stupid but should be

permitted.
I don't even think it's that stupid of an activity and I enjoy the spoils of it (venison jerky rules). I was just irked at the indignation that hunters don't take any joy in the activity of killing. Those that deny that are the ones on the high horse (or some tree stand where they sit in below 0 weather at 6 am to kill animals).

 
Jesus Christ, I'm not even a hunter but I sure do hope none of you anti hunting guys broke a leg

climbing down from your high horse.
FTR I never said I was anti-hunting...because I'm not.
Same here. I said I think it's stupid but should be

permitted.
I don't even think it's that stupid of an activity and I enjoy the spoils of it (venison jerky rules).I was just irked at the indignation that hunters don't take any joy in the activity of killing. Those that deny that are the ones on the high horse (or some tree stand where they sit in below 0 weather at 6 am to kill animals).
There is a middle ground between not taking any joy in the activity and some sort of unbridled blood lust that some in here seem to think all hunters have. HTH.

 
Why am I not shocked:

Less than two days after a 9-year-old girl in Arizona accidentally shot and killed a gun range instructor who was showing her how to fire an Uzi, the National Rifle Association on Wednesday touted new ways for children to "have fun" at shooting ranges.

The nation's largest gun lobby posted a tweet Wednesday afternoon to its NRA Women account that read "7 Ways Children Can Have Fun at the Shooting Range." The tweet included a link to an article with the same title published on the website of Women's Outdoor News. A little over an hour after posting it, NRA Women deleted the tweet without explanation.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/27/nra-children-gun-range_n_5725674.html

 
Why am I not shocked:

Less than two days after a 9-year-old girl in Arizona accidentally shot and killed a gun range instructor who was showing her how to fire an Uzi, the National Rifle Association on Wednesday touted new ways for children to "have fun" at shooting ranges.

The nation's largest gun lobby posted a tweet Wednesday afternoon to its NRA Women account that read "7 Ways Children Can Have Fun at the Shooting Range." The tweet included a link to an article with the same title published on the website of Women's Outdoor News. A little over an hour after posting it, NRA Women deleted the tweet without explanation.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/27/nra-children-gun-range_n_5725674.html
LOL wow. So tone deaf.

 
Jesus Christ, I'm not even a hunter but I sure do hope none of you anti hunting guys broke a leg

climbing down from your high horse.
FTR I never said I was anti-hunting...because I'm not.
Same here. I said I think it's stupid but should be

permitted.
I don't even think it's that stupid of an activity and I enjoy the spoils of it (venison jerky rules).I was just irked at the indignation that hunters don't take any joy in the activity of killing. Those that deny that are the ones on the high horse (or some tree stand where they sit in below 0 weather at 6 am to kill animals).
:lol:

The ones who look down upon hunters and claim to know their motivations are the ones who are full of indignation, hypocrisy and firmly saddled on their high horse.

 
Jesus Christ, I'm not even a hunter but I sure do hope none of you anti hunting guys broke a leg

climbing down from your high horse.
FTR I never said I was anti-hunting...because I'm not.
Same here. I said I think it's stupid but should be

permitted.
I don't even think it's that stupid of an activity and I enjoy the spoils of it (venison jerky rules).I was just irked at the indignation that hunters don't take any joy in the activity of killing. Those that deny that are the ones on the high horse (or some tree stand where they sit in below 0 weather at 6 am to kill animals).
:lol:

The ones who look down upon hunters and claim to know their motivations are the ones who are full of indignation, hypocrisy and firmly saddled on their high horse.
Again, bird hunting is just bird watching with a gun, Mr. Big Game hunter.

 
Anyone here go to a shooting range as a child? Did you have fun?
I use to shoot .22 rifles and arrows in summer camp. It was fun.
i did that too. But I don't think it's the same thing. I've inly been to a shooting range twice in my life, both times in my early 20s. It WAS fun, but I wasn't prepared for how loud it was. May still be the loudest place I've ever been. Also I used my friend's handgun, which was big, and I wasn't ready for the kick. I felt like my hand was broken.

 
Anyone here go to a shooting range as a child? Did you have fun?
Around age 12. Shot a .22 (very low caliber and easy to handle) rifle and a 20 gauge shot gun. I also shot a .30-06 that was my grandfathers military rifle. That was as much as I could handle at 12 years old. That was at an old rock quarry out in the AZ desert. I've shot clay pigeons and targets a few times in my life. Sure it's fun but if I wasn't invited by someone or had to buy ammo and guns for myself I wouldn't do it because it's not worth the cost for me.

 
Anyone here go to a shooting range as a child? Did you have fun?
I learned to shoot in middle school. It was actually pretty stressful at first, but I eventually came to enjoy it. If you are brought up to respect guns there is always a sense of seriousness around it. I enjoyed shooting, but when i think of fun I think of a more playful enjoyment. It's never been like that for me.

I actually shoot quite rarely, maybe once a year, and I don't actually own any guns. I look forward to the times that I can go, but I find regular enjoyment in a lot of other things that are more accessible.

 
Last year I took my 13 year old son to the shooting range for the first time to fire a handgun. Have a Walther P22 that I let him shoot. I would not have taken him earlier as I didn't feel he was mature enough.

 
Anyone here go to a shooting range as a child? Did you have fun?
My daughter shoots competition .22 rifle and has fun. She missed her last practice so we went out by ourselves to a range and had a lot of fun.

She's a scrawny 16 year old, and I wouldn't let her shoot an uzi.

 
My 8 yr old has a BB gun. He doesn't even get to use that without me right by him. No way will he handle a real gun for several years.

 
So I decided to look up actual statistics about children and access to guns, and I came up with this article- I have bolded the statistical data that I find compelling. It seems to make a pretty good argument against exposing children to firearms in general (not just Uzis):

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2014/06/gun_deaths_in_children_statistics_show_firearms_endanger_kids_despite_nra.html

Caroline Starks was 2 years old. Her 5-year-old brother was playing nearby with his birthday present: a .22-caliber Crickett rifle. His mother stepped outside for a moment, certain the gun wasn’t loaded. She was wrong. Caroline was pronounced dead a few hours later at the Cumberland County Hospital in Kentucky.

Despite harrowing tragedies like Caroline’s death, the National Rifle Association is committed to expanding firearm ownership among children. The NRA’s recent convention in Indianapolis included a “Youth Day” to promote firearms for children, an event from which the media was banned. For years, gun manufacturers and the NRA have marketed firearms to children ages 5 to 12, insisting that programs such as the Eddie Eagle Safety Program ensure the safety of children. If they truly believe this, they are mistaken.
The overwhelming empirical evidence indicates that the presence of a gun makes children less safe; that programs such as Eddie Eagle are insufficient; and that measures the NRA and extreme gun advocates vehemently oppose, such as gun safes and smart guns, could dramatically reduce the death toll. Study after study unequivocally demonstrates that the prevalence of firearms directly increases the risk of youth homicide, suicide, and unintentional death. This effect is consistent across the United States and throughout the world. As a country, we should be judged by how well we protect our children. By any measure, we are failing horribly.
The United States accounts for nearly 75 percent of all children murdered in the developed world. Children between the ages of 5 and 14 in the United States are 17 times more likely to be murdered by firearms than children in other industrialized nations.
Children from states where firearms are prevalent suffer from significantly higher rates of homicide, even after accounting for poverty, education, and urbanization. A study focusing on youth in North Carolina found that most of these deaths were caused by legally purchased handguns. A recent meta-analysis revealed that easy access to firearms doubled the risk of homicide and tripled the risk for suicide among all household members. Family violence is also much more likely to be lethal in homes where a firearm is present, placing children especially in danger. Murder-suicides are another major risk to children and are most likely to be committed with a gun.

Crucially, these deaths are not offset by defensive gun use. As one study found, for every time a gun is used legally in self-defense at home, there are “four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides.” A study of adolescents in California found that there were 13 times as many threatening as self-defensive uses of guns. Of the defensive encounters, many arose in confrontations that became hostile because of the presence of a firearm.

In the overall suicide rate, the United States ranks roughly in the middle of the pack among industrialized nations. However, we are the exception when it comes to suicides among children between the ages of 5 and 14, with an overall rate twice the average of other developed nations. This stark difference is driven almost exclusively by a firearm-related suicide rate that is 10 times the average of other industrialized nations.
Adolescents living in states with higher gun prevalence suffer from higher rates of suicide. Adolescents who commit suicide are significantly more likely to live with firearms in their homes even after adjusting for various risk factors. The increased risk holds true regardless of how the firearm is stored or the type of gun. Firearms that are stored loaded have the highest risk, while safely stored guns (locked and unloaded) are much safer. Proper firearm storage can’t mitigate the entire risk of adolescent gun suicide, but it is a necessary step.
In terms of accidental fatalities, American children younger than 15 are nine times more likely to die by a gun accident than those in the rest of the developed world. Children living in states with higher levels of firearm availability also suffer from significantly higher rates of unintentional gun deaths. Studies indicate the vast majority of these shootings involve either family or friends. These statistics indicate that parents’ ownership of a weapon is a significant risk not only to their own children but also to their children’s friends. As a report from the New York Times revealed, accidental killings are significantly underreported in the official data, often being classified as homicides or suicides rather than accidents. In several states there were twice as many accidental gun deaths than the official record indicated.
In light of this empirical reality, coupled with the fact that many gun owners are unaware that children have handled their guns, the safest policy is not having a gun in the home. The American Academy of Pediatrics strongly advocates this approach to safety.

In contrast, the NRA claims that its safety programs work and are sufficient, despite significant evidence to the contrary. The NRA ignores the overwhelming evidence that firearms make children less safe and continues to promote bills that forbid pediatricians from talking to parents about guns and safety measures.
Toy guns have tomes of regulation dedicated to reducing the risk of fatal accidents.
In homes that do have guns, safely storing a firearm locked and unloaded is critical. Laws holding gun owners responsible for the safe storage of firearms reduced unintentional shooting deaths among children by 23 percent. Further, a disproportionately large share of unintentional firearm deaths happen in states where gun owners were more likely to store firearms loaded, and especially in states where owners more often stored firearms unlocked and loaded. This is true even after controlling for factors such as firearm prevalence and poverty.
Perhaps the most promising step forward in children’s safety is the advent of smart guns. These firearms can be fired only by the owner, thereby drastically reducing the risk of accidental shootings and teenage suicides. A 2003 study examined unintentional, undetermined intent and negligent homicide firearm deaths occurring in Milwaukee County and Maryland between 1991 and 1998. The study determined that 37 percent of the deaths would have been prevented by a smart gun.
Efforts to introduce these much safer weapons have stalled in the face of a fierce backlash from extreme gun advocates, with one gun store owner even receiving death threats for offering smart guns. The most sophisticated smart gun model, the German-made Armatix iP1 .22-caliber pistol, can be fired only while the owner is wearing an accompanying wristwatch with a built-in RFID tag. The universal adoption of such a device would drastically reduce gun deaths.
Unfortunately, extreme gun advocates are committed to a misinformation campaign, claiming that smart guns have high failure rates. Not only is this accusation based on concerns about outdated fingerprint technology, which the Armatix iP1 doesn’t use, but this gun has passed state reliability tests with a successful firing rate of more than 99 percent.
Toy guns, like teddy bears, have tomes of regulation dedicated to reducing the risk of fatal accidents, but real guns, the single device most responsible for accidental child fatalities, have exactly zero federal safety standards regulating their designs. In fact, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission has been forbidden by Congress since 1976 to address gun safety, at the urging of the NRA. Gun manufacturers, under federal law, have since been able to choose gun designs without regard for safety or public health.
The NRA and extreme gun advocates perpetuate a culture of fear and violence, teaching children that guns are a solution. We are seeing the results of this culture in our schools. Bullied students are bringing thousands of guns to schools. Since the Sandy Hook shooting in December 2012, there have been 74 shootings at schools, events that used to be exceedingly rare. Further, one study found that exposure to firearm violence doubles the risk that an adolescent will then in turn commit violent acts over the next two years. The death toll continues to mount.
In the developed world, 87 percent of children younger than 14 killed by firearms live in the United States. More American children and teenagers died from gunfire in 2010—a single year—than U.S. troops in Afghanistan since 2001. Is this truly the culture we want for our children?

 
I find it pretty ridiculous that gun advocates will denounce the idea of giving a nine year old an Uzi but will fight tooth and nail if someone actually suggests we make a law forbidding some of this stupid stuff from happening.
If the law makes sense I'm all for it.

Want to make it illegal for 9 yr olds to shoot UZI's? I'm right here with you.

Want to make guns illegal? You're insane... good luck with that.

Want to meet somewhere in the middle, let's talk.

 
I find it pretty ridiculous that gun advocates will denounce the idea of giving a nine year old an Uzi but will fight tooth and nail if someone actually suggests we make a law forbidding some of this stupid stuff from happening.
If the law makes sense I'm all for it.

Want to make it illegal for 9 yr olds to shoot UZI's? I'm right here with you.

Want to make guns illegal? You're insane... good luck with that.

Want to meet somewhere in the middle, let's talk.
Who is suggesting that?

 
One of the important points that I got from that article is that the type of gun is not significant:

The increased risk holds true regardless of ,,, the type of gun

If this is so then perhaps we have placed too much emphasis on the fact that the 9 year old was using an Uzi. Any loaded gun in the hands of a child, no matter what the supervision, is equally dangerous. Perhaps we should consider outlawing it completely, and treating firearms like cars or cigarettes or alcohol- off limits to children.

 
I find it pretty ridiculous that gun advocates will denounce the idea of giving a nine year old an Uzi but will fight tooth and nail if someone actually suggests we make a law forbidding some of this stupid stuff from happening.
If the law makes sense I'm all for it.

Want to make it illegal for 9 yr olds to shoot UZI's? I'm right here with you.

Want to make guns illegal? You're insane... good luck with that.

Want to meet somewhere in the middle, let's talk.
I just proposed that. What say we make all firearms illegal for children under the age of 16? And furthermore, if you own guns and have children, you have to abide by certain safety measures (as proposed in the article I linked)?

 
Why am I not shocked:

Less than two days after a 9-year-old girl in Arizona accidentally shot and killed a gun range instructor who was showing her how to fire an Uzi, the National Rifle Association on Wednesday touted new ways for children to "have fun" at shooting ranges.

The nation's largest gun lobby posted a tweet Wednesday afternoon to its NRA Women account that read "7 Ways Children Can Have Fun at the Shooting Range." The tweet included a link to an article with the same title published on the website of Women's Outdoor News. A little over an hour after posting it, NRA Women deleted the tweet without explanation.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/27/nra-children-gun-range_n_5725674.html
LOL wow. So tone deaf.
Well to be fair, from Slate...

The story mentioned in the now-deleted tweet comes from the Women’s Outdoor Network and was posted last week, before the Arizona shooting. “f children continually shoot the same bull’s-eye target, they can become tired, exhausted or bored,” the story reads. “Sometimes they want, or rather need, to have fun at the range. That’s when it’s time to introduce other types of targets to change things up, so children have fun at the range.”
Moms know best, clearly.

 
I totally agree that hunters just like to kill. And they do it for the thrill of the kill. Same with fishermen. Or butterfly collectors. All vicious murders just getting high off of the thrill of killing. :no:
Exactly. I go fishing every few weekends. If I did it for the thrill of the kill, I'd have stopped a long time ago, because I'm horrible at it and rarely catch anything. I don't even like to eat any of the kinds of fish I would hypothetically catch.
Admit it. You fish for the thrill of the kill. When you pull that fish out of the water you can't wait to bash it's wiggling body repeatedly against a rock. Maybe even have a smoke and cackle as you pluck it's eyeballs out. You are a monster!
As often as I go, I pity the poor fish I finally catch because it's going to have to feel the wrath of my pent up frustration from catching no fish for weeks. Oh, and before people get all worked up, I use lures, not worms, so none of god's creatures were harmed in my fishing.
Except for the fish... which you've already said you don't eat.

 
One of the important points that I got from that article is that the type of gun is not significant:

The increased risk holds true regardless of ,,, the type of gun

If this is so then perhaps we have placed too much emphasis on the fact that the 9 year old was using an Uzi. Any loaded gun in the hands of a child, no matter what the supervision, is equally dangerous. Perhaps we should consider outlawing it completely, and treating firearms like cars or cigarettes or alcohol- off limits to children.
I don't disagree with the intent of the statement...an Uzi is way out there in any situation, but do disagree that any loaded gun, regardless of the supervision, is EQUALLY as dangerous.

I think we'd all agree that a gun in the hands of a child alone in a room and a gun in the hands of a child supervised by an adult aren't apples-to-apples in the risk department, no? There is some level of safety provided by supervision. As to whether it is enough to justify allowing a child to shoot is the debateable point.

 
I find it pretty ridiculous that gun advocates will denounce the idea of giving a nine year old an Uzi but will fight tooth and nail if someone actually suggests we make a law forbidding some of this stupid stuff from happening.
If the law makes sense I'm all for it.

Want to make it illegal for 9 yr olds to shoot UZI's? I'm right here with you.

Want to make guns illegal? You're insane... good luck with that.

Want to meet somewhere in the middle, let's talk.
How about limitations on size of ammo purchases, universal background checks and outlawing high capacity magazines, bulletproof vests and silencers?

I'm not even including assault rifles in that list since I know many will argue they are just a dressed up rifle. But start with the above, all of which have a majority of citizen support, and we'll be able to find a middle ground.

This bogeyman of taking away all guns is ridiculous. You'll absolutely find examples of people that want this, maybe even people in a position of power. But it is far from any prevailing perspective and using this as the excuse for doing nothing, or painting it as 'their' endgoal is ridiculous. I hate guns and would never push for the abolition of guns.

 
I totally agree that hunters just like to kill. And they do it for the thrill of the kill. Same with fishermen. Or butterfly collectors. All vicious murders just getting high off of the thrill of killing. :no:
Exactly. I go fishing every few weekends. If I did it for the thrill of the kill, I'd have stopped a long time ago, because I'm horrible at it and rarely catch anything. I don't even like to eat any of the kinds of fish I would hypothetically catch.
Admit it. You fish for the thrill of the kill. When you pull that fish out of the water you can't wait to bash it's wiggling body repeatedly against a rock. Maybe even have a smoke and cackle as you pluck it's eyeballs out. You are a monster!
As often as I go, I pity the poor fish I finally catch because it's going to have to feel the wrath of my pent up frustration from catching no fish for weeks. Oh, and before people get all worked up, I use lures, not worms, so none of god's creatures were harmed in my fishing.
Except for the fish... which you've already said you don't eat.
Do you swerve for bugs on the highway?

 
One of the important points that I got from that article is that the type of gun is not significant:

The increased risk holds true regardless of ,,, the type of gun

If this is so then perhaps we have placed too much emphasis on the fact that the 9 year old was using an Uzi. Any loaded gun in the hands of a child, no matter what the supervision, is equally dangerous. Perhaps we should consider outlawing it completely, and treating firearms like cars or cigarettes or alcohol- off limits to children.
I don't disagree with the intent of the statement...an Uzi is way out there in any situation, but do disagree that any loaded gun, regardless of the supervision, is EQUALLY as dangerous.

I think we'd all agree that a gun in the hands of a child alone in a room and a gun in the hands of a child supervised by an adult aren't apples-to-apples in the risk department, no? There is some level of safety provided by supervision. As to whether it is enough to justify allowing a child to shoot is the debateable point.
Look, gun advocates are very fond of using car analogies, so let's use one. Would you feel safe handing the keys of your car to your 9 year old, even if you were right there next to her to supervise? Would it make any difference what kind of car it was?

 
I totally agree that hunters just like to kill. And they do it for the thrill of the kill. Same with fishermen. Or butterfly collectors. All vicious murders just getting high off of the thrill of killing. :no:
Exactly. I go fishing every few weekends. If I did it for the thrill of the kill, I'd have stopped a long time ago, because I'm horrible at it and rarely catch anything. I don't even like to eat any of the kinds of fish I would hypothetically catch.
Admit it. You fish for the thrill of the kill. When you pull that fish out of the water you can't wait to bash it's wiggling body repeatedly against a rock. Maybe even have a smoke and cackle as you pluck it's eyeballs out. You are a monster!
As often as I go, I pity the poor fish I finally catch because it's going to have to feel the wrath of my pent up frustration from catching no fish for weeks. Oh, and before people get all worked up, I use lures, not worms, so none of god's creatures were harmed in my fishing.
Except for the fish... which you've already said you don't eat.
Do you swerve for bugs on the highway?
Do you squash them for no good reason?

 
One of the important points that I got from that article is that the type of gun is not significant:

The increased risk holds true regardless of ,,, the type of gun

If this is so then perhaps we have placed too much emphasis on the fact that the 9 year old was using an Uzi. Any loaded gun in the hands of a child, no matter what the supervision, is equally dangerous. Perhaps we should consider outlawing it completely, and treating firearms like cars or cigarettes or alcohol- off limits to children.
I don't disagree with the intent of the statement...an Uzi is way out there in any situation, but do disagree that any loaded gun, regardless of the supervision, is EQUALLY as dangerous.

I think we'd all agree that a gun in the hands of a child alone in a room and a gun in the hands of a child supervised by an adult aren't apples-to-apples in the risk department, no? There is some level of safety provided by supervision. As to whether it is enough to justify allowing a child to shoot is the debateable point.
Look, gun advocates are very fond of using car analogies, so let's use one. Would you feel safe handing the keys of your car to your 9 year old, even if you were right there next to her to supervise? Would it make any difference what kind of car it was?
No, and no...but if it were to happen, would you feel safer with you sitting next to her or with her in the car solo? To use a better analogy, since while not adviseable (agreed by most everyone here) to hand a gun to a 9 y.o., it is unfortunately legal to do so...So let's say it's a 16 year old. Would you rather a 16 year old legally drive alone or with you in the car?

That's my point. Not debating the safety...just saying that they are equal is like saying that supervision provides absolutely no benefit, which isn't true.

 
I totally agree that hunters just like to kill. And they do it for the thrill of the kill. Same with fishermen. Or butterfly collectors. All vicious murders just getting high off of the thrill of killing. :no:
Exactly. I go fishing every few weekends. If I did it for the thrill of the kill, I'd have stopped a long time ago, because I'm horrible at it and rarely catch anything. I don't even like to eat any of the kinds of fish I would hypothetically catch.
Admit it. You fish for the thrill of the kill. When you pull that fish out of the water you can't wait to bash it's wiggling body repeatedly against a rock. Maybe even have a smoke and cackle as you pluck it's eyeballs out. You are a monster!
As often as I go, I pity the poor fish I finally catch because it's going to have to feel the wrath of my pent up frustration from catching no fish for weeks. Oh, and before people get all worked up, I use lures, not worms, so none of god's creatures were harmed in my fishing.
Except for the fish... which you've already said you don't eat.
Do you swerve for bugs on the highway?
Do you squash them for no good reason?
Nope. Just like I don't kill fish for no good reason.

 
So I decided to look up actual statistics about children and access to guns, and I came up with this article- I have bolded the statistical data that I find compelling. It seems to make a pretty good argument against exposing children to firearms in general (not just Uzis):
No it makes a compelling argument that firearms handled or stored carelessly or inappropriately are dangerous. It does not provide any sort of compelling argument that children should not be exposed to any firearms when it is in a safe, controlled and appropriately supervised situation.

edit: sorry bad double quote there.


 
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I find it pretty ridiculous that gun advocates will denounce the idea of giving a nine year old an Uzi but will fight tooth and nail if someone actually suggests we make a law forbidding some of this stupid stuff from happening.
If the law makes sense I'm all for it.

Want to make it illegal for 9 yr olds to shoot UZI's? I'm right here with you.

Want to make guns illegal? You're insane... good luck with that.

Want to meet somewhere in the middle, let's talk.
How about limitations on size of ammo purchases, universal background checks and outlawing high capacity magazines, bulletproof vests and silencers?

I'm not even including assault rifles in that list since I know many will argue they are just a dressed up rifle. But start with the above, all of which have a majority of citizen support, and we'll be able to find a middle ground.

This bogeyman of taking away all guns is ridiculous. You'll absolutely find examples of people that want this, maybe even people in a position of power. But it is far from any prevailing perspective and using this as the excuse for doing nothing, or painting it as 'their' endgoal is ridiculous. I hate guns and would never push for the abolition of guns.
I've been in strong favor of universal background checks for years, and will continue to do so, as I personally have never encountered a good argument against them and have read several good arguments FOR them.

But your other points- limit ammo size, outlaw high capacity magazines, vests and silencers- I don't believe these are necessary. I used to be for limiting the magazine capacity, but I've come to believe it would have no effect on crime. The others the same way.

 

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