A new dark ages in art and entertainment (1 Viewer)

[Ilov80s]

I actually think one of Wikkid's pet issues really applies here. Protest of art is as old as art it's self. If we are talking films, it dates back to Gone with the Wind and Birth of a Nation. The differences now are the ability for the protesters to organize across physical boundaries and barriers. The other difference is the depth to which capitalism has overtaken art. Corporations are ran by boards who aren't usually invested in the product, just the profit. This makes them even more likely to axe something semi-controversial in favor of the sanitized. We have always had this to some degree. The studios reluctantly censored movies during the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s because they were scared of the backlash from the government and the Church. Most studios other than Warner Brothers were reluctant to allow criticism of Hitler because they wanted the money from the German markets. However, those studios were still ran by movie people and they were still more likely to take some risks for their product (because it was THEIR product). While we have lots of corporate self censorship spurred by offended elements of society, it's still far far less censored than it was once was. Also there are more groups with the social capital and organizational skills to apply that kind of pressure than there were 60 years ago. 

 

[whoknew]

Marc Maron - 

“There’s plenty of people being funny right now,” Maron, 56, said. “Not only being funny but being really f—ing funny. There are still lines to be rode. If you like to ride a line, you can still ride a line. If you want to take chances, you can still take chances.”

“Really, the only thing that’s off the table, culturally, at this juncture — and not even entirely — is shamelessly punching down for the sheer joy of hurting people,” he continued. “For the sheer excitement and laughter that some people get from causing people pain, from making people uncomfortable, from making people feel excluded. Ya know, that excitement."

“If you’re too intimidated to try to do comedy that is deep or provocative, or even a little controversial, without hurting people, then you’re not good at what you do,” Maron added. “Or maybe you’re just insensitive.”

“Bottom line is, no one is saying you can’t say things or do things,” Maron concluded. “It’s just that it’s going to be received a certain way by certain people and you’re gonna have to shoulder that. And if you’re isolated or marginalized or pushed into a corner because of your point of view or what you have to say, yet you still have a crew of people that enjoy it, there you go! Those are your people. Enjoy your people."

 

[Leroy Hoard]

So what did Ellen say?

 

[TheIronSheik]

So what did Ellen say?

She likes Bush.  Doesn't seem all that newsworthy. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

I think it's funny that hundreds of comedians and writers in the field are like, "Comedy is being suppressed and is dying in this culture."  And random guy on the internet who works in an office is like, "No it's not."  

Image of said office worker.

 

[Thorpe]

I think it's funny that hundreds of comedians and writers in the field are like, "Comedy is being suppressed and is dying in this culture."  And random guy on the internet who works in an office is like, "No it's not."  

Image of said office worker.

If you are funny enough, you can say pretty much anything you want nowadays.  If you aren't funny and not PC, then you have a problem

How many of those hundreds of people are actually funny?   They are blaming PC culture when the problem is too many comedians that aren't funny.   There are probably the same number of top comedians today as there were in the 70s and 80s...

 

[dickey moe]

I try. Honestly I do. Read most posts twice. And I consider myself relatively intelligent. However...

I NEVER know what the #### you're talking about.

Part of the charm, honestly.

 

[dickey moe]

She likes Bush.

You don't say.

 

[Workhorse]

I've laughed harder watching Big Mouth's 3 seasons than anything I've watched on film or in person in probably a decade.

Hey whining comedians:  Work harder on your material.

 

[The General]

If you are funny enough, you can say pretty much anything you want nowadays.  If you aren't funny and not PC, then you have a problem

How many of those hundreds of people are actually funny?   They are blaming PC culture when the problem is too many comedians that aren't funny.   There are probably the same number of top comedians today as there were in the 70s and 80s...

Exactly.

Chapelle for instance. In his last special had some great stuff but had some weak stuff as well I’d expect from a 5th grader. If your stuff is dumb why should people fall all over themselves acting like it’s good?

I can download 50 great podcasts of all kinds of great stuff for free. When I was a kid there was one tape “Eddie Murphy: Comedian” and maybe some Richard Pryor. 

 

[Despyzer]

Mmm...I think it's more like The Inquisition.

Well, I wasn't expecting THAT!

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Well, I wasn't expecting THAT!

Not many do.

 

[Bull Dozier]

Back in my late teens/early 20's, I tried stand up.  I had always loved comedy and wanted to be a famous comedian.  Have my own HBO comedy special.  Do my tight five at an SNL audition.  I ended up working with a guy at a restaurant who worked in the kitchen at lunch, and did stand up at night.  He wasn't anything big, but to me, he was great.  He took me under his wing and for about 8 years (on and off), I would try my luck on local stages.  The problem was, I realized really quick that I didn't like stand up as much as I liked writing.  I hated having to say the same stories over and over.  I still do to this day.  It just seems odd to me.  I like to be funny.  And stand up was more of just a routine.  So as quickly as I started following my dream, I also started to loath it.  Eventually, I gave up on it altogether.  Luckily, I was able to turn that talent into an IT guy who spends a lot of time on an outdated form of communication making tens of people mildly chuckle.  So, not too shabby.  

Reading this make me instantly think of improv, did you ever try that?

 

[Ilov80s]

I think it's funny that hundreds of comedians and writers in the field are like, "Comedy is being suppressed and is dying in this culture."  And random guy on the internet who works in an office is like, "No it's not."  

Image of said office worker.

Is Marc Maron another random guy on the internet who works in the office? You have avoided responding to most of the posts of substance here.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Is Marc Maron another random guy on the internet who works in the office? You have avoided responding to most of the posts of substance here.

I've learned that arguing with people who have no knowledge on a subject but think they are smart is a fool's errand.  Same reason I don't go in the Politics Forum.  

 

[TheIronSheik]

Reading this make me instantly think of improv, did you ever try that?

I did.  Wasn't a fan.  Mainly because I didn't like the "acting" part of it.  Seems strange, but I can be on a stage by myself, acting out goofy bits.  But when I'm on a stage with others, all of a sudden I become a nervous wreck and my brain forgets how to be funny.  It's almost like I start trying too hard.  Not really sure how to explain it.  

 

[Ilov80s]

I've learned that arguing with people who have no knowledge on a subject but think they are smart is a fool's errand.  Same reason I don't go in the Politics Forum.  

Then why start the thread?

 

[Ilov80s]

I think it’s an interesting topic but if people aren’t willing to engage in a discussion, then what’s the point? The history of censorship in art is fascinating and something I’ve spent a decent amount of time studying in terms of 20th century US as it overlaps with my personal interests and my professional/educational background.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Then why start the thread?

To see people's thoughts on the state of comedy and the arts.  I didn't realize I had to run thread topics by you, though.  That's my bad.

 

[Ilov80s]

To see people's thoughts on the state of comedy and the arts.  I didn't realize I had to run thread topics by you, though.  That's my bad.

I was just enjoying the discussion/comments in the thread and was disappointed when it fizzled out. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

I think it’s an interesting topic but if people aren’t willing to engage in a discussion, then what’s the point? The history of censorship in art is fascinating and something I’ve spent a decent amount of time studying in terms of 20th century US as it overlaps with my personal interests and my professional/educational background.

Again, if you're opinion is that there is no censorship and that the comedians who think there is (which is a large majority of them) just aren't good comedians, you're part of the problem.  You are fine with censorship and you don't even realize you're doing it.  OR you do realize you're doing it and you think it's OK.  The Nazi's thought they were doing right by burning books, as well.  No one thinks they're the bad guys when they use censorship.  They think they are protecting others from certain things.  

 

[Ilov80s]

Again, if you're opinion is that there is no censorship and that the comedians who think there is (which is a large majority of them) just aren't good comedians, you're part of the problem.  You are fine with censorship and you don't even realize you're doing it.  OR you do realize you're doing it and you think it's OK.  The Nazi's thought they were doing right by burning books, as well.  No one thinks they're the bad guys when they use censorship.  They think they are protecting others from certain things.  

I never said anything like that though. I tried to provide some historical context to the issue and give good examples to show that calling it the dark ages was a major stretch given the levels of censorship that was much more strictly enforced through much of the 20th century. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

I never said anything like that though. I tried to provide some historical context to the issue and give good examples to show that calling it the dark ages was a major stretch given the levels of censorship that was much more strictly enforced through much of the 20th century. 

First off, did you really think I was comparing it to the actual Dark Ages?  I mean, that seems odd to me that your big argument is that it seems a stretch to call the current situation the Dark Ages.  

Secondly, my point is and always was that we are swinging from one side to the other.  Where we used to have conservatives that censored comedy and liberals fighting for the right to free speech, we now have the opposite.  

Right now, comedy is being suppressed.  Whether you believe that's a good thing or bad, we can all agree that it's happening.  And I'm not talking about hurtful, racist things.  Because immediately, when I say that there's censorship, people love to say things snarky like, "Wow.  Sorry you can't say racist jokes anymore.  Boo hoo."  But that's not even close to what I'm talking about.  The only jokes we can make anymore that reference a certain group is hillbillies.  And that's allowed because liberals don't really occupy a lot of the rural states.  Comedy is governed by the left and the PC police right now.  And God forbid you say something that could be considered over the line.  Because you can forget about your career after that.  SNL?  Late night talk shows?  Hollywood sitcoms?  Not happening.  Because they are run by liberals.  

And again, I'm not anti-liberal.  I'm anti-idiot and anti-censorship.  

 

[Ilov80s]

First off, did you really think I was comparing it to the actual Dark Ages?  I mean, that seems odd to me that your big argument is that it seems a stretch to call the current situation the Dark Ages.  

Secondly, my point is and always was that we are swinging from one side to the other.  Where we used to have conservatives that censored comedy and liberals fighting for the right to free speech, we now have the opposite.  

Right now, comedy is being suppressed.  Whether you believe that's a good thing or bad, we can all agree that it's happening.  And I'm not talking about hurtful, racist things.  Because immediately, when I say that there's censorship, people love to say things snarky like, "Wow.  Sorry you can't say racist jokes anymore.  Boo hoo."  But that's not even close to what I'm talking about.  The only jokes we can make anymore that reference a certain group is hillbillies.  And that's allowed because liberals don't really occupy a lot of the rural states.  Comedy is governed by the left and the PC police right now.  And God forbid you say something that could be considered over the line.  Because you can forget about your career after that.  SNL?  Late night talk shows?  Hollywood sitcoms?  Not happening.  Because they are run by liberals.  

And again, I'm not anti-liberal.  I'm anti-idiot and anti-censorship.  

And more so than ever we are seeing companies willing to bend to the pressure. I really think most of the protest and pressure has always been there (who is protesting does change) but the willingness of companies to bend to tiny pieces of the market seems more extreme than ever. Also the people protesting now seem more likely to be the target demographic of the material. Nobody cared if a a bunch of old white women protested a raunchy comedy because that was never the market for it. If the 18-30 demo is turned off by it than the movie can’t sell.

As for who we can joke about, I agree that minority groups routinely made as butts of jokes are dangerous topics right now (LGBTQ, black, etc) but I don’t think hillbillies are the only thing on the table. Wealthy elite get bagged on as much as anyone. Also the person telling the joke matters. It’s kind of become a “I will make fun of brother relentlessly but if someone else says something mean about my brother I’ll kick their ###.”  People want the humor to come from inside that culture, not outside it. There are good and bad things about that obviously.

Ultimately, I think money is the real driving force here. Look how bad mainstream movies have become in general- I don’t think it’s censorship (movies were actually better when they were heavily censored than they are now) but it’s the realization that a bland superhero story can make the most money. It offends nobody, has a built in audience and can offer entertainment without any need for critical thought. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

And more so than ever we are seeing companies willing to bend to the pressure. I really think most of the protest and pressure has always been there (who is protesting does change) but the willingness of companies to bend to tiny pieces of the market seems more extreme than ever. Also the people protesting now seem more likely to be the target demographic of the material. Nobody cared if a a bunch of old white women protested a raunchy comedy because that was never the market for it. If the 18-30 demo is turned off by it than the movie can’t sell.

As for who we can joke about, I agree that minority groups routinely made as butts of jokes are dangerous topics right now (LGBTQ, black, etc) but I don’t think hillbillies are the only thing on the table. Wealthy elite get bagged on as much as anyone. Also the person telling the joke matters. It’s kind of become a “I will make fun of brother relentlessly but if someone else says something mean about my brother I’ll kick their ###.”  People want the humor to come from inside that culture, not outside it. There are good and bad things about that obviously.

Ultimately, I think money is the real driving force here. Look how bad mainstream movies have become in general- I don’t think it’s censorship (movies were actually better when they were heavily censored than they are now) but it’s the realization that a bland superhero story can make the most money. It offends nobody, has a built in audience and can offer entertainment without any need for critical thought. 

Not trying to cherry pick your post, but I want to touch on one thing.  You said that it matters who is telling the joke because you can't be mean to my brother.  But what I'm saying is that a lot of comedy isn't 'mean.'  Comedy, more so than any other form of art, pushes boundaries.  I'm not arguing that we should be allowed to be mean to each other for the sake of a joke.  But we should be able to poke fun of each other.  If a black comic says (the stereotypical line of a black comedian), "White people do things this way...", no one is thinking, "God.  That comic is racist.  He's making fun of how white people dance."  We all laugh because it's turning the mirror on people.  I remember when I was young, a white comedian saying, "They made a movie called 'White Men Can't Jump' but they can't make a movie called 'Black People Can't Shut the Hell Up in a Movie Theater.'  This would end his career now.  But it's not a mean joke.  It's a mirror.  Context matters.  The point of comedy is to be able to laugh at yourself.  Because no one is perfect.  

I think by not allowing comedy that pokes fun of each other, we are making the world worse.  

 

[Ilov80s]

Not trying to cherry pick your post, but I want to touch on one thing.  You said that it matters who is telling the joke because you can't be mean to my brother.  But what I'm saying is that a lot of comedy isn't 'mean.'  Comedy, more so than any other form of art, pushes boundaries.  I'm not arguing that we should be allowed to be mean to each other for the sake of a joke.  But we should be able to poke fun of each other.  If a black comic says (the stereotypical line of a black comedian), "White people do things this way...", no one is thinking, "God.  That comic is racist.  He's making fun of how white people dance."  We all laugh because it's turning the mirror on people.  I remember when I was young, a white comedian saying, "They made a movie called 'White Men Can't Jump' but they can't make a movie called 'Black People Can't Shut the Hell Up in a Movie Theater.'  This would end his career now.  But it's not a mean joke.  It's a mirror.  Context matters.  The point of comedy is to be able to laugh at yourself.  Because no one is perfect.  

I think by not allowing comedy that pokes fun of each other, we are making the world worse.  

Good points and I think sensitivity level is definitely in play here. I think people would have different opinions of whether or not saying someone is loud or a bad dancer is making fun of them, being mean or just laughing at yourself. There’s a lot of variables: who says, how they say it, who the audience is.  There’s definitely a lot of sensitivity and I don’t know where the right balance is between being sensitive to peoples feelings and being funny. That line is always shifting for sure.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Good points and I think sensitivity level is definitely in play here. I think people would have different opinions of whether or not saying someone is loud or a bad dancer is making fun of them, being mean or just laughing at yourself. There’s a lot of variables: who says, how they say it, who the audience is.  There’s definitely a lot of sensitivity and I don’t know where the right balance is between being sensitive to peoples feelings and being funny. That line is always shifting for sure.

My belief is that we let the vocal minority speak for the majority for too long.  I honestly believe most people aren't offended by almost anything said right now.  They've been conditioned to in a lot of cases.  I've even caught myself cringing on certain jokes only to think, "Wait.  That's not offensive."  But I've been conditioned to think it is.  I know it's kind of a joke in The Office, but I actually had a time in Texas where I was talking to someone and was asking about another person.  They said, "Who do you mean?"  And I said, "Jose.  You know Jose.  He's the Puerto Rican."  The guy cringed, looked around, and said, "Woah.  Easy there.  People can hear you."  He honestly thought calling someone a Puerto Rican was offensive.  

But my point is that we need more people to stand up and say, "That's not offensive."  Stand up against the PC police.  Problem is, right now, if you do that alone, you can come off as looking like a racist.  And no one wants to be labeled that.  There's no coming back from that.  You can be fired from your job because someone accuses you of being racist.  That's unbelievably scary.  

(I don't know where I was going with this post.  I had to start and stop it at least 5 times to work on something.  So sorry if it's a rambling mess.  )

 

[TheIronSheik]

Also, I do appreciate good conversation and debate like this.  And I'm sorry about lumping you in earlier.  That was my bad, GB.  I didn't mean it to be bad and I wasn't angry, even with the other posters.  I was just saying if their mind was made up, then there was no use talking about it.

When someone says, "It's fine and if they can't figure out a way to do comedy without offending people", I know no matter what I say will help them understand what I'm saying.  So again, I want to make sure you understand that was my fault and I apologize.  I know that doesn't happen a lot on the internet, so if you want to print this out and frame it, I give you permission to use my name and likeness. 

 

[Ilov80s]

Also, I do appreciate good conversation and debate like this.  And I'm sorry about lumping you in earlier.  That was my bad, GB.  I didn't mean it to be bad and I wasn't angry, even with the other posters.  I was just saying if their mind was made up, then there was no use talking about it.

When someone says, "It's fine and if they can't figure out a way to do comedy without offending people", I know no matter what I say will help them understand what I'm saying.  So again, I want to make sure you understand that was my fault and I apologize.  I know that doesn't happen a lot on the internet, so if you want to print this out and frame it, I give you permission to use my name and likeness. 

No worries, I can be a snide ##### myself so I always am willing to forgive and forget since I know I’ll need that in return. 

 

[wikkidpissah]

all i can think of is this scene from Back to School

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiALXNKTNds

partly because of the "anger" angle that Wikkid brought up, partly because it involves Rodney Dangerfield who is old-line comedian and partly because it speaks to the "get off my lawn" nature of the line of thinking that comedy isn't funny anymore.

if comedy isn't funny anymore it's because what "it" is has changed from what "it" was when we were younger (assuming the demographic is largely the same here). my kids laugh riotously at things that i don't think are remotely funny. and they look at me cross-eyed when i tell obviously hilarious dad jokes that my dad was killing rooms with in the 70s and 80s. yes, kids are dumb, but they also change every 10 years or so.

previous generations have funneled things in the direction of "alright, enough with bullying, sexism, racism, etc. let's work on being good to each other".  so now kids are more accepting, whether they actually understand the foundation of how it got here or not.  that may be part of the lack of "anger" Wikkid is positing about. 

i'd say comedy is born from pain, by and large. born from rejection or need for attention, from trying to defuse volatile situations, etc. Richard Pryor's entire comedy act was about pain.  there wan't  therapy for boys, there wasn't acceptance at school, parents didn't nurture and encourage as much even 40 years ago. if you were a weird kid that got picked on because he wore raggedy clothes and liked being in the school play, or whose dad beat the #### out of him because he was a drunk.. or whatever .. your audience for expressing hurt wasn't a counselor, a group of friends that would listen and accept you for who you were, teachers who had specialized training to deal, etc. you took your beatings like a man and shut everything down because that's what boys did. 

so maybe you learned to be funny to keep the wolves at bay. or you learned to be cruel-funny to shut down the verbal attacks. or you were funny because nobody paid attention to anything you did or said unless you were cracking jokes. comedy for a long while, up until the 80s probably was vicious and angry. seething under the surface. acerbic and cutting if you paid attention. 

i'm not old enough to address the Vaudeville stuff.. maybe it was mean, too

there's definitely more acceptance of what was considered "weird" or "outsider" not so long ago.. so maybe kids aren't channeling their angst and anger in to comedy as a form of expression in the same ways. it's now done in outlandish youtube videos that make no sense to 40 year olds. my kids will laugh riotously when they see a video of a kid pulling his sweatshirt up over his head, running in circles making random noises   

sry i missed this. i had stopped following the thread because the OP wasn't responding to my posts. fortunately, i'm vain enough to search my name every few weeks and i found mention of me in this very thoughtful post so , even though it's over a week old, i'll try to respond.

the human personality is rage based. just either throw out Freud or put the word "rage" where he put the word "sex" and you're on your way to a fuller understanding of human beings. i have pgs&pgs of psychobabble theories in this realm all over this board, but i'll try to encapsulate for the purposes here.

as efficient as it is at thinking, the human mind's first job is survival, as is the job of every other organism or system. the easiest way to survive is to dominate, so most organisms try this first in every situation until they rule or are destroyed. pretty inefficient, so the higher animals started picking their fights, making deals with themselves and others so every encounter wasn't fight-to-the-death.

but the primary instinct is always dominance. in the highest order of animals - humans - the brain takes almost 15 years to develop fully, so most parents tend young humans to at least that age. 90% of a parent's job is the frustration of the dominance instinct. you can see how much of it is in the smallest, cutest child when you see them punch an insinuating face or the Cheerios on their tray before taking in their luscious goodness. you can see it with a toddler pulling at his pants, eyes bugging out at the checkout counter when he doesnt get the impulse item he wants or cries with anguish worthy of genocide for having been given the wrong plushie for a long drive.

the byproduct of the frustration of dominance is rage. as briefly as i can put it, the memory of every gd one of those rages are stored in a cranial closet to which we do not have the key. distillations of this lost fury leak, like the water from old garbage, into almost everything we do. it is why we are so reactive, so everything-at-the-surface, so heavily inclined to take everything personally and are til the day we die.

we must flush that rage in order to cope, to keep from letting our garbagewater from festering, to release enough bilious discharge to be able to deal. humor is one of the solvents which help us with this. again, i could do pages and pages of specifics, but let's just say that, just as the American Negro flushed the overpowering rage of their horrorful lives with the blues - a truthful, haunting sublimation of rage - the EuroAmerican Jew turned the rage resulting from their hounding from every shore sideways with humor. One of the best jokes a Jew ever told characterized the blues. "if it ain't done right, it's just complaining..." and they should know. then boys & girls of every color & creed realized that any origin story & orientation could be funny and that the only thing people wanted to do as much as #### was laugh, and you could laugh an awful lot before it made you sore, so......

the endlessly curious Jerry Seinfeld once had the opportunity to ask the greatest comedian ever, Richard Pryor, about the roots of his humor. he expected the great genius to dredge up race, poverty, being raised in a whorehouse. "Naw, man, being a human being is hard. I don't know how we get up every day. The rest of it is just my story. What else am i gonna talk about?"

 

[The General]

Just powered through most of Seinfeld’s Comedians in Cars series over past few weeks. A bit self serving but well done, funny, and interesting.

Focused more on the process of doing stand-up but of all the people he talked with — and he hit the A list of all A lists — the issue of PC culture ruining things didn’t really come up. Bill Burr went on a bit about it.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Just powered through most of Seinfeld’s Comedians in Cars series over past few weeks. A bit self serving but well done, funny, and interesting.

Focused more on the process of doing stand-up but of all the people he talked with — and he hit the A list of all A lists — the issue of PC culture ruining things didn’t really come up. Bill Burr went on a bit about it.

Seinfeld was one of the first to point it out.  He stopped doing college campuses because of it.  He doesn't bring it up anymore because nothing good comes of it for him.  But he has been extremely outspoken in the past.

 

[The General]

Seinfeld was one of the first to point it out.  He stopped doing college campuses because of it.  He doesn't bring it up anymore because nothing good comes of it for him.  But he has been extremely outspoken in the past.

Didn’t know this. Thought he was more a “clean comedian”, this show for instance he didn’t even allow cursing it seemed like, so didn’t realize he’d even be impacted by over PC culture. Kind of like Jim Gaffigan.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

sry i missed this. i had stopped following the thread because the OP wasn't responding to my posts. fortunately, i'm vain enough to search my name every few weeks and i found mention of me in this very thoughtful post so , even though it's over a week old, i'll try to respond.

the human personality is rage based. just either throw out Freud or put the word "rage" where he put the word "sex" and you're on your way to a fuller understanding of human beings. i have pgs&pgs of psychobabble theories in this realm all over this board, but i'll try to encapsulate for the purposes here.

as efficient as it is at thinking, the human mind's first job is survival, as is the job of every other organism or system. the easiest way to survive is to dominate, so most organisms try this first in every situation until they rule or are destroyed. pretty inefficient, so the higher animals started picking their fights, making deals with themselves and others so every encounter wasn't fight-to-the-death.

but the primary instinct is always dominance. in the highest order of animals - humans - the brain takes almost 15 years to develop fully, so most parents tend young humans to at least that age. 90% of a parent's job is the frustration of the dominance instinct. you can see how much of it is in the smallest, cutest child when you see them punch an insinuating face or the Cheerios on their tray before taking in their luscious goodness. you can see it with a toddler pulling at his pants, eyes bugging out at the checkout counter when he doesnt get the impulse item he wants or cries with anguish worthy of genocide for having been given the wrong plushie for a long drive.

the byproduct of the frustration of dominance is rage. as briefly as i can put it, the memory of every gd one of those rages are stored in a cranial closet to which we do not have the key. distillations of this lost fury leak, like the water from old garbage, into almost everything we do. it is why we are so reactive, so everything-at-the-surface, so heavily inclined to take everything personally and are til the day we die.

we must flush that rage in order to cope, to keep from letting our garbagewater from festering, to release enough bilious discharge to be able to deal. humor is one of the solvents which help us with this. again, i could do pages and pages of specifics, but let's just say that, just as the American Negro flushed the overpowering rage of their horrorful lives with the blues - a truthful, haunting sublimation of rage - the EuroAmerican Jew turned the rage resulting from their hounding from every shore sideways with humor. One of the best jokes a Jew ever told characterized the blues. "if it ain't done right, it's just complaining..." and they should know. then boys & girls of every color & creed realized that any origin story & orientation could be funny and that the only thing people wanted to do as much as #### was laugh, and you could laugh an awful lot before it made you sore, so......

the endlessly curious Jerry Seinfeld once had the opportunity to ask the greatest comedian ever, Richard Pryor, about the roots of his humor. he expected the great genius to dredge up race, poverty, being raised in a whorehouse. "Naw, man, being a human being is hard. I don't know how we get up every day. The rest of it is just my story. What else am i gonna talk about?"

Yet another HOF post from this guy. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

Didn’t know this. Thought he was more a “clean comedian”, this show for instance he didn’t even allow cursing it seemed like, so didn’t realize he’d even be impacted by over PC culture. Kind of like Jim Gaffigan.

Not sure what being a "clean" comedian has to do with this.  Gaffigan has also talked about it as well.

 

[The General]

Not sure what being a "clean" comedian has to do with this.  Gaffigan has also talked about it as well.

Clean comedian isn't really going to be edgy. They are going to tell jokes about Hot Pockets, being fat, what is the deal about cereal type material so I wouldn't think Seinfeld or Gaffigan are going to have problems. As I brought up earlier Seinfeld was blocking out curse words in his Netflix Cars and Coffee stuff.

I have seen Gaffigan a couple times and heard him talk about this as well. Here's an interview discussing this: Gaffigan on PC Culture

I'm pretty aligned with what Gaffigan is saying here:

"So the idea of politically correctness I don’t think that has to do with censorship. I think that has to do with a certain sensitivity. So, you know, words that are very toxic it’s unnecessary. If you also identify yourself as a clean person it’s not necessary to say shocking words. That being said there are great comedians that deal in shock, that deal in irreverence. But similar to liberty irreverence – what’s irreverent today is stale tomorrow. So if you chase irreverence that’s a pretty slippery slope. I mean Don Rickles can do it but there’s been a lot of awkward moments for Don Rickles even on a public stage. But I don’t know. It’s also very personal but I think that whatever we call political correctness or whatever the term might be saying things that aren’t sexist or could be construed as racist it’s not that hard of a sacrifice. Now that’s not to say that people aren’t overly sensitive. I think the bigger issue which I even, we did an episode on is the fact that we are humans and there is the mob mentality. That same mob mentality that would go on PokeRoms in Eastern Europe is the same mentality that people engage in when someone does a tweet that’s of poor taste. So I think it’s not so much the crime, it’s the punishment. "

There are aspects in today's that are mobs running amok, overly sensitive, etc for sure. There is so much noise out there and more than ever anyone gets their opinions heard with social media which can be an annoyance. However, there are also aspects to this that are doing positive things IMO and I don't really see the dark ages you describe. There is more content than ever out there and there will be more tomorrow. Watching shows, stand-up from years ago there was some good stuff but a lot of total, complete #### as well. I'd say there's way more good content out there now then say 20 years ago.

Comedians, artists and should be allowed all the room to perform that they need to write, and create but their work is going to be judged and held accountable. 

 

[Leroy Hoard]

And everyone knows it's harder to work clean.

 

[Jackstraw]

Comedians in general I think should be punching up or at least sideways. Punching oneself in the face can work too. But punching down is very difficult for many people to find funny. 

The comedian with multiple scleorosis for instance might find some rich veins of humor there. The able bodied person. Maybe not so much. 

But I'm all for pushing boundaries. There is some pretty edgy stuff out there I think is crazy funny.  And TONS of great material.  

Just watched Kim Jeong special on netflix and I thought it was hysterical. He's certainly not out there walking on eggshells. 

But the day Mitch Hedburg died so did a little piece of my funnybone.  

 

[TheIronSheik]

Clean comedian isn't really going to be edgy. They are going to tell jokes about Hot Pockets, being fat, what is the deal about cereal type material so I wouldn't think Seinfeld or Gaffigan are going to have problems. As I brought up earlier Seinfeld was blocking out curse words in his Netflix Cars and Coffee stuff.

I have seen Gaffigan a couple times and heard him talk about this as well. Here's an interview discussing this: Gaffigan on PC Culture

I'm pretty aligned with what Gaffigan is saying here:

"So the idea of politically correctness I don’t think that has to do with censorship. I think that has to do with a certain sensitivity. So, you know, words that are very toxic it’s unnecessary. If you also identify yourself as a clean person it’s not necessary to say shocking words. That being said there are great comedians that deal in shock, that deal in irreverence. But similar to liberty irreverence – what’s irreverent today is stale tomorrow. So if you chase irreverence that’s a pretty slippery slope. I mean Don Rickles can do it but there’s been a lot of awkward moments for Don Rickles even on a public stage. But I don’t know. It’s also very personal but I think that whatever we call political correctness or whatever the term might be saying things that aren’t sexist or could be construed as racist it’s not that hard of a sacrifice. Now that’s not to say that people aren’t overly sensitive. I think the bigger issue which I even, we did an episode on is the fact that we are humans and there is the mob mentality. That same mob mentality that would go on PokeRoms in Eastern Europe is the same mentality that people engage in when someone does a tweet that’s of poor taste. So I think it’s not so much the crime, it’s the punishment. "

There are aspects in today's that are mobs running amok, overly sensitive, etc for sure. There is so much noise out there and more than ever anyone gets their opinions heard with social media which can be an annoyance. However, there are also aspects to this that are doing positive things IMO and I don't really see the dark ages you describe. There is more content than ever out there and there will be more tomorrow. Watching shows, stand-up from years ago there was some good stuff but a lot of total, complete #### as well. I'd say there's way more good content out there now then say 20 years ago.

Comedians, artists and should be allowed all the room to perform that they need to write, and create but their work is going to be judged and held accountable. 

You keep saying things like "toxic" or "edgy" and I think you're missing the point.  

 

[The General]

You keep saying things like "toxic" or "edgy" and I think you're missing the point.  

Well, I didn't use "toxic" that was Gaffigan. 

Are you saying what is deemed edgy is the problem? I guess I'm missing your point or am disagreeing with your premise that PC culture is ruining comedy today. 

Far from perfect but I'd say it's been a net positive in our society. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

Comedians in general I think should be punching up or at least sideways. Punching oneself in the face can work too. But punching down is very difficult for many people to find funny. 

The comedian with multiple scleorosis for instance might find some rich veins of humor there. The able bodied person. Maybe not so much. 

But I'm all for pushing boundaries. There is some pretty edgy stuff out there I think is crazy funny.  And TONS of great material.  

Just watched Kim Jeong special on netflix and I thought it was hysterical. He's certainly not out there walking on eggshells. 

But the day Mitch Hedburg died so did a little piece of my funnybone.  

Again, when you say "punching down" you are implying that it's mean spirited.  This is a huge problem.  We make fun of everyone equally.  You shouldn't get special treatment because you think the person making jokes is above you.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Well, I didn't use "toxic" that was Gaffigan. 

Are you saying what is deemed edgy is the problem? I guess I'm missing your point or am disagreeing with your premise that PC culture is ruining comedy today. 

Far from perfect but I'd say it's been a net positive in our society. 

I realize you didn't say it, but you're quoting it.  It's ok if you disagree.  You're allowed to.  But what I'm telling you is that the majority of comics do not like the direction of comedy and this cancel culture that is happening.  Sarah Silverman fell victim to it.  Kevin Hart fell victim to it.  I mean, these are huge names that are being affected.  

It's fine if you disagree.  Just realize that you are part of the problem.  

 

[Jackstraw]

Again, when you say "punching down" you are implying that it's mean spirited.  This is a huge problem.  We make fun of everyone equally.  You shouldn't get special treatment because you think the person making jokes is above you.

No I just think being an ####### isn't that funny. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

No I just think being an ####### isn't that funny. 

But you keep saying that.  I'm not saying be an #######.  What I'm saying is that in this day and age, any attempt at humor to someone who is not exactly like you is considered "punching down."  And that in turn is being an #######.  But that's such a black and white view of things.  And I apologize for using both of those terms when I'm neither black or white.  This explanation takes some punching down.  There is a HUGE middle ground.  Always has been.  There's being a jerk, which really was never acceptable.  And there's being a guy who tells dad jokes.  It used to be that most comedy fell either right at the middle of that or slightly below.  But over the past two or three decades, that "jerk" area has expanded upwards.  And what used to be the middle is now considered ####### zone.  And it continues to move upwards.

So, yes, there's still room for comedy.  And people can be great at telling dad jokes.  This is why I keep saying humor isn't going away.  And when people say, "There are still very funny comedians out there", they are correct.  But they are missing the point, GB.  

 

[The General]

I realize you didn't say it, but you're quoting it.  It's ok if you disagree.  You're allowed to.  But what I'm telling you is that the majority of comics do not like the direction of comedy and this cancel culture that is happening.  Sarah Silverman fell victim to it.  Kevin Hart fell victim to it.  I mean, these are huge names that are being affected.  

It's fine if you disagree.  Just realize that you are part of the problem.  

I think people complaining about the olden times is a problem but thank you for your permission to disagree

Kevin Hart and Sarah Silverman are just fine. Perhaps they lose some gigs like hosting "The Oscars" or being a spokesperson for Pepsi or something. I'm guessing if they want to host a show on HBO or Netflix special they could talk about pretty much whatever they want.

In the past few months I have watched comedy specials where jokes were  about, transgendered, gays, Mexicans, Jews, of course middle aged white dudes, abortion, Christians, pretty much everybody.

 

[Jackstraw]

But you keep saying that.  I'm not saying be an #######.  What I'm saying is that in this day and age, any attempt at humor to someone who is not exactly like you is considered "punching down."  And that in turn is being an #######.  But that's such a black and white view of things.  And I apologize for using both of those terms when I'm neither black or white.  This explanation takes some punching down.  There is a HUGE middle ground.  Always has been.  There's being a jerk, which really was never acceptable.  And there's being a guy who tells dad jokes.  It used to be that most comedy fell either right at the middle of that or slightly below.  But over the past two or three decades, that "jerk" area has expanded upwards.  And what used to be the middle is now considered ####### zone.  And it continues to move upwards.

So, yes, there's still room for comedy.  And people can be great at telling dad jokes.  This is why I keep saying humor isn't going away.  And when people say, "There are still very funny comedians out there", they are correct.  But they are missing the point, GB.  

Do you have any examples? Might help me grok it a bit better. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

Do you have any examples? Might help me grok it a bit better. 

I don't.  Off the top of my head, I don't.  And it's a dangerous game to play nowadays trying to get close to that line.  

 

[TheIronSheik]

I think people complaining about the olden times is a problem but thank you for your permission to disagree

Kevin Hart and Sarah Silverman are just fine. Perhaps they lose some gigs like hosting "The Oscars" or being a spokesperson for Pepsi or something. I'm guessing if they want to host a show on HBO or Netflix special they could talk about pretty much whatever they want.

In the past few months I have watched comedy specials where jokes were  about, transgendered, gays, Mexicans, Jews, of course middle aged white dudes, abortion, Christians, pretty much everybody.

I didn't give you permission to disagree, GB.  I'm not sure if you're trying to be combative on purpose, but I'm not.  All I'm saying is we disagree.  And that's ok.  We don't have to agree on everything.  Or anything.   We can literally disagree about everything and still be friends on a message board.  

 

[The General]

I didn't give you permission to disagree, GB.  I'm not sure if you're trying to be combative on purpose, but I'm not.  All I'm saying is we disagree.  And that's ok.  We don't have to agree on everything.  Or anything.   We can literally disagree about everything and still be friends on a message board.  

Yup. We are on the same page, Sheik.

I would say telling someone they are the problem is a tad combative but that is fine by me as well. Combative, argumentative, agreement, disagreement, funny, absurd commentary is what people read and contribute for in here, at least me.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Yup. We are on the same page, Sheik.

I would say telling someone they are the problem is a tad combative but that is fine by me as well. Combative, argumentative, agreement, disagreement, funny, absurd commentary is what people read and contribute for in here, at least me.

To clarify my statement, when I said you are part of the problem, it was probably worded wrong on my part.  What I was trying to say was that you believe one thing.  And it contradicts my opinion.  So from my standpoint, you are part of the side I have an issue with on this subject.  But again, it wasn't meant to be a dig or anything like that.  Honestly.