Pipes
Footballguy
MFL allows for offensive points allowed as opposed to points allowed so the Raven's D would be credited with 0 in this scenario if your league is set up correctly.
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A Ruling On The Robert Meachem Play (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
Neither of these make sense. What matters is either:a)what he was playing when the play started orb)what he was playing right before he got the ballNothing else makes any sense. Either of these make sense. Just pick the one you like and stop arguing about which makes more sense. B seems more in line with the NFL rulebook (but who cares -- it's fantasy). A seems to be the one that appeals to more people's 'common sense' and more online scoring systems.
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TommyGilmore
Footballguy
The following TDs were scored by players who recovered a teammate's fumble while on offense in 2007 (without a change of possession):Week 7: Rashied Davis, Chicago
Week 14: Joe Staley, San Francisco
Week 16: Justin Blalock, Atlanta
Were those TDs given to the D/STs?
PoolShark
Footballguy
Ok, since I'm back home & bored, one more time for you....When Darren Sharper makes an interception and runs it back for a TD:
- He is on defense at the start of the play
- He is on defense before he gets the ball
- He is on offense when he gets the ball
- He is on offense when he scores the TD
- The TD is a Saints DST TD No, the TD is obviously an offensive TD. IN YOUR OWN WORDS. (see line above)
When Meachem recovers a Redskins fumble and runs it for a TD:
- He is on offense at the start of the play
- He is on defense when the Redskins make the pick
- He is on offense when he recovers the fumble
- He is on offense when he scores the TD
I agree, he is on offense. Therefore (AGAIN) no defensive TD
So what is the issue? You are contradicting your own arguements. I WIN. next.....
Yep, this was just like every other defensive TD in fantasy football. No different.You forgot one point, Meachem was on OFFENSE when the ball was snapped.Yes, silly me to forget that and to never mention it nor to account for that fact in any of my posts... Thanks for pointing out the error in my ways...Yep, this was just like every other defensive TD in fantasy football. No different.You forgot one point, Meachem was on OFFENSE when the ball was snapped.
shuke
Black Ice Skeptic
I was referring to your comment that it was "Just like every other Defensive TD in Fantasy Football".Yes, silly me to forget that and to never mention it nor to account for that fact in any of my posts... Thanks for pointing out the error in my ways...Yep, this was just like every other defensive TD in fantasy football. No different.You forgot one point, Meachem was on OFFENSE when the ball was snapped.
His own words, before they were crossed out, were: "The TD is a Saints DST TD."It was an illustration of the fact that a defensive TD can be scored by a player who's on offense at the time of the TD as long as he was on defense at the time just prior to getting the turnover.
Yeah, um again things just zip over your head man. I already said that I don't give a rat's a** how the official scoring goes because I realize that this is FANTASY football."Do fantasy players in your league challenge bad spots too? Incompletions?"
No. You see this is so simple when you break it down to the basics. I know for someone like you who seems to lack rational it is hard to comprehend. This is ... come on ... say it with me ... FANTASY football. So, occasionally, things are going to be scored a little differently than in real football. The New Orleans Defense and Special Teams were not ... not ... were not ... they were not on the field during this play. How much easier can it be explained to you ??????????
In our FANTASY league the New Orleans Def was on the field.B. McCardell Rule
1. The purpose of this rule is to clarify when a play ceases to be an offensive play.
2. Offensive plays begin at the snap of the ball.
3. Offensive plays cease with change of possession
a. Beginning with a change of possession, both teams represent the Def position for fantasy scoring purposes.
b. One team is the return team the other team is the coverage team.
Good for you that you had this rule in your rulebook. However, if you still call the position "Defensive Team", I think you have it wrong. If you call the position "Team Defenders", now you're on to something.
A "Defensive Team" clearly consists of DL, LB, & DB's. It's combined with Special Teams, so you also get those who cover kicks of any kind.
The fact the entire play for New Orleans was run with offensive personnel on the field would tell you "Defensive Team" is the wrong place to put this score.
Utter Chaos
Footballguy
Personally, I don't think it matters that the Saints defense was not on the field at the snap. If the Saints defense gets credited for the fumble recovery then they should be credited with the touchdown as well. If there was no touchdown on the play the team defense still gets credited for the turnover, correct? Then they should be credited with the TD as well.
For those that are using the "Saints defense was not on the field when the play started" then consider this scenario.
Ronnie Brown is lined up at RB at the start of the play. He received a handoff and throws the ball for a touchdown. Now he wasn't a quarterback at the start of the play but he became one when he threw the ball and thus earns passing points. Meachem became a Saints defensive player when the ball was intercepted.
If Brown gets passing points (which I'm pretty sure every league out there would do that) then Meachem should get points for the Saints defense.
For those that are using the "Saints defense was not on the field when the play started" then consider this scenario.
Ronnie Brown is lined up at RB at the start of the play. He received a handoff and throws the ball for a touchdown. Now he wasn't a quarterback at the start of the play but he became one when he threw the ball and thus earns passing points. Meachem became a Saints defensive player when the ball was intercepted.
If Brown gets passing points (which I'm pretty sure every league out there would do that) then Meachem should get points for the Saints defense.
Under the roster position RB, scoring includes passing yardage and passing TD's. It is at a different award level (1/10) than is the QB position. When Ronnie Brown lines up in the QB position, we don't track that one play differently. It's part of the scoring for Ronnie Brown's RB position. Meachem's position is WR. He does not score defensive touchdowns. To believe that he should generate DST points, you must believe that his roster position changed in mid-play. Ain't gonna happen.
PoolShark
Footballguy
I understood the illustration he was making. My point is that if you follow this logic, there are "technically" NO defensive TDs ever. Yet we award defensive TDs all the time in fantasy football. Because we don't pay attention to the fact that "technically" our defensive player who intercepted a pass and returned it for a TD "became" an offensive player when he gained possession of the ball. To me, that makes the logic sites like CBS use to defend their scoring of the play seem all the more ridiculous. Numerous times every week in fantasy football we disregard this change from defense to offense and award defensive TD points. Yet in this particular instance, we should recognize the opposite change from offense to defense, but then moments later during the same play we should again disregard the change back from defense to offense. Sorry, but that defies logic.
The point you're missing is that when people playing fantasy football SAY 'Defensive TD' they MEAN 'TD from a player who was defensive BEFORE HE GOT THE BALL'. Since obviously everyone who has the ball is an offensive player and obviously there are still 'defensive TDs' in fantasy football. But only some players (including Meachem!) are defenders BEFORE THEY GET THE BALL.PoolShark said:
I don't think rules can be wrong. They can be silly or unfair, but by definition, they are the rules and are therefore automatically correct. (I don't think the rules RandyDB posted are silly or unfair, however: they are clear, precise, and sensible.)You might prefer a different set of rules, just as some people prefer PPR leagues while others prefer non-PPR leagues, but that doesn't make either set of rules wrong.Dbbr said:
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But that's obviously not true. Under TWP's logic, Darren Sharper's interception return for a touchdown would be a defensive TD, as he just stated very clearly in the post you were quoting.The reason it would be a defensive TD is that he was on defense both at the start of the play AND just before he got the ball -- so whichever of those two factors is deemed conclusive, it's a defensive TD either way.PoolShark said:
If you're saying it should technically be an offensive TD because he was on offense at the time of the touchdown, you're using your logic, not TWP's. Under TWP's logic, interception returns for touchdowns are defensive touchdowns.
Granted, CBS didn't explain its reasoning very well. But TWP isn't CBS.
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PoolShark
Footballguy
I'm not missing the point, I just don't agree with it. If we are supposed to disregard the fact that a defensive player changes to offense after he gets the ball, then why should we recognize the fact that an offensive player changes to defense after a turnover?Irregardless, the more relevant point is that when we draft team defenses in fantasy football, we are drafting a collection of defensive players in hopes that they will score points via turnovers, sacks, etc & by holding the opposing offense to minimal points. The Saints defensive players were all seated comfortably on their bench when this play took place. Awarding them fantasy points goes against the spirit & principle of the "team defense" concept.
PoolShark
Footballguy
That is what my league is doing and we have had a rule in place since the McCardell play yrs ago. And for the record, while it may not be what "everyone" is doing, it is what "most" leagues and fantasy hosting sites are doing, because of the reasons I already mentioned. If your league is different and everyone is ok with it, that's fine, but it seems to me given the opinions I've heard that there are likely a few (if not a majority) of owners in your league that would disagree with the scoring you support. If not, more power to you, you're lucky. I'm in a CBS league where there is a semi-major controversy, and even in my league with the rule in place, the guy with the Saints D is complaining because he missed the playoffs by literally the difference in score from not getting those points. And he's been in the league since before the McCardell rule. You can never make everyone happy, lol. Good luck!
In my league, it made no difference. We just went with the default (CBS) scoring. But the games were all blowouts.Also, for the record, I have never advocated an approach. I have just tried to explain the two approaches. The focus has been on the DST approach because that is where people have had that 'if you count one turnover, you have to count two turnovers' confusion.
The Touchdown Scoring Information section lists what unit was on the field when the touchdown was scored. That shouldn't necessarily be used to describe what kind of touchdown it is for fantasy purposes.Officially, it's a fumble return for a touchdown. There is no 'offensive' or 'defensive' subtype.
Mr. Retukes
Footballguy
What is your source for that? Not that I don't believe you (well, I kinda don't)......I'd just like to see some confirmation.Also....what about when the special teams "unit" is on the field, but it ends up scoring an offensive touchdown on a fake punt? That TD would be scored as an offensive TD, no?
PoolShark
Footballguy
That was a controversy earlier this year (again with the Redskins if I'm not mistaken). I think the general consensus on that type of play is that it's doesn't become a "special teams" play until the ball is actually kicked. Otherwise it's just an offensive rushing or passing TD (that happened to take place on 4th down out of a punting formation).
I agree that there really is not official stats that one can point to that shows New Orleans Defensive Team should have been awarded a fumble recovery, nor a touch down.
CBS' scoring in this case is to me the equivalent of scoring MJD with a TD when he knelt down at the 1 foot line rather than scoring.
He was "in the act of scoring", he just didn't choose to score.
No stats released on that one either, but we all saw it.
CBS' scoring in this case is to me the equivalent of scoring MJD with a TD when he knelt down at the 1 foot line rather than scoring.
He was "in the act of scoring", he just didn't choose to score.
No stats released on that one either, but we all saw it.
Bill Davies
Footballguy
DOUBLE STANDARDS
FIXING THE DOUBLE TURNOVER RULE
By Chief Injustice Bill “The Commissioner” Davies
As we all know, the Robert Meachem fumble recovery for a TD caused a great deal of confusion and difficulty for many in fantasy football. Coming on the last week of the regular season in most leagues, this scoring oddity has been thrust into the limelight.
Many industry leaders and participants, including myself, drew a very big line in the sand. What became evident in this discussion is there are AT LEAST two sides to this issue and the answer should lie not as much in theory as in your rules.
Your league determines how it scores specific plays. Not your league management system, not FootballGuys.com, not the Chief Injustice. You and your league-mates alone create your scoring system. Scoring systems are neither right nor wrong. They just are.
THE FIX IS IN
After fielding hundreds of e-mails, most from owners appealing my ruling in the hopes of pulling out a victory from defeat, I have determined that there are two simple rules that will permanently clear up this confusion for every league that adopts one or the other. My recommendation is that you choose which rule applies to your league’s philosophy about these rare circumstances and adopt them into your rules now, before it happens again.
OFFENSE IS OFFENSE AND DEFENSE IS DEFENSE
For purposes of scoring, the team that starts a play with possession of the ball is the offense and the team that starts the play without possession of the ball is defense throughout the play. This will not change, even if there is a change in possession.
NOTE: This is the fundamental basis for most that treated the Robert Meachem TD as an offensive fumble recovery for a touchdown.
A DEFENSIVE ACT CAN ONLY BE PERFORMED BY A DEFENSIVE TEAM
Any team/player that scores a touchdown as the result of a defensive act - such as an interception, recovery of a fumble by the opposing team and in the cases of special teams a kick return - shall be awarded points toward a defensive touchdown.
NOTE: This is the fundamental basis for most that treated the Robert Meachem TD as a defensive fumble recovery for a touchdown. Also notice, this does not cover a fumble recovery for a TD when the ball is both fumbled and recovered by the offensive team. That fumble recovery will continue to be treated as an offensive TD.
If your league adopts either one of these two rules, you should never fret again about this type of scoring play.
For those of you that have followed this discussion closely and/or participated in the debate, you will recognize the second definition as the one adopted by such websites as CBSSportsline.com. As I said earlier, any fantasy scoring system is neither inherently right nor wrong. It is just that there is strong disagreement about whether that should be the default position or not. For example, I have taken the position that in the absence of rules covering specific situations, the default should be the official scoring of the NFL or some other ruling based in logic. If you intend to treat scoring plays in a non-official capacity, then you need to put that application in your rules. This is why I advocated so strongly against this interpretation.
The first proposed rule is the fundamental basis for allowing defensive scoring in fantasy football. I say that because per NFL rules, the ONLY scoring that can happen as a sole function of a defensive play is a safety. NFL rules clearly state that once a team gains possession of the ball, it becomes the offense – even if possession changes in the middle of a play as the result of a turnover. We reject that definition for fantasy purposes and that’s where the trouble begins. One train of thought is that we reject it because the player’s position at the start of the play determines whether he is a member of the DST or not. The other theory is that what a player does during the play determines if he is a member of the DST or not, not his designation at the beginning of the play.
In most instances, these two trains of thought run parallel and no one is affected. When these courses collide, like they did with the Meachem TD, trouble ensues. Without regard to the righteousness of one position over the other, the only way to avoid the collision is to define the matter by using one of the simple definitions above.
Do your league and your Commissioner a huge favor and adopt one of them this offseason.
HISTORICAL NOTE: This type of an incident is more frequent than you may think. It has last happened in 1992, 1997, 2003 and 2009. Although it’s not “scheduled” to happen again until 2015, we can be sure it will happen again. Please fix it now!
FIXING THE DOUBLE TURNOVER RULE
By Chief Injustice Bill “The Commissioner” Davies
As we all know, the Robert Meachem fumble recovery for a TD caused a great deal of confusion and difficulty for many in fantasy football. Coming on the last week of the regular season in most leagues, this scoring oddity has been thrust into the limelight.
Many industry leaders and participants, including myself, drew a very big line in the sand. What became evident in this discussion is there are AT LEAST two sides to this issue and the answer should lie not as much in theory as in your rules.
Your league determines how it scores specific plays. Not your league management system, not FootballGuys.com, not the Chief Injustice. You and your league-mates alone create your scoring system. Scoring systems are neither right nor wrong. They just are.
THE FIX IS IN
After fielding hundreds of e-mails, most from owners appealing my ruling in the hopes of pulling out a victory from defeat, I have determined that there are two simple rules that will permanently clear up this confusion for every league that adopts one or the other. My recommendation is that you choose which rule applies to your league’s philosophy about these rare circumstances and adopt them into your rules now, before it happens again.
OFFENSE IS OFFENSE AND DEFENSE IS DEFENSE
For purposes of scoring, the team that starts a play with possession of the ball is the offense and the team that starts the play without possession of the ball is defense throughout the play. This will not change, even if there is a change in possession.
NOTE: This is the fundamental basis for most that treated the Robert Meachem TD as an offensive fumble recovery for a touchdown.
A DEFENSIVE ACT CAN ONLY BE PERFORMED BY A DEFENSIVE TEAM
Any team/player that scores a touchdown as the result of a defensive act - such as an interception, recovery of a fumble by the opposing team and in the cases of special teams a kick return - shall be awarded points toward a defensive touchdown.
NOTE: This is the fundamental basis for most that treated the Robert Meachem TD as a defensive fumble recovery for a touchdown. Also notice, this does not cover a fumble recovery for a TD when the ball is both fumbled and recovered by the offensive team. That fumble recovery will continue to be treated as an offensive TD.
If your league adopts either one of these two rules, you should never fret again about this type of scoring play.
For those of you that have followed this discussion closely and/or participated in the debate, you will recognize the second definition as the one adopted by such websites as CBSSportsline.com. As I said earlier, any fantasy scoring system is neither inherently right nor wrong. It is just that there is strong disagreement about whether that should be the default position or not. For example, I have taken the position that in the absence of rules covering specific situations, the default should be the official scoring of the NFL or some other ruling based in logic. If you intend to treat scoring plays in a non-official capacity, then you need to put that application in your rules. This is why I advocated so strongly against this interpretation.
The first proposed rule is the fundamental basis for allowing defensive scoring in fantasy football. I say that because per NFL rules, the ONLY scoring that can happen as a sole function of a defensive play is a safety. NFL rules clearly state that once a team gains possession of the ball, it becomes the offense – even if possession changes in the middle of a play as the result of a turnover. We reject that definition for fantasy purposes and that’s where the trouble begins. One train of thought is that we reject it because the player’s position at the start of the play determines whether he is a member of the DST or not. The other theory is that what a player does during the play determines if he is a member of the DST or not, not his designation at the beginning of the play.
In most instances, these two trains of thought run parallel and no one is affected. When these courses collide, like they did with the Meachem TD, trouble ensues. Without regard to the righteousness of one position over the other, the only way to avoid the collision is to define the matter by using one of the simple definitions above.
Do your league and your Commissioner a huge favor and adopt one of them this offseason.
HISTORICAL NOTE: This type of an incident is more frequent than you may think. It has last happened in 1992, 1997, 2003 and 2009. Although it’s not “scheduled” to happen again until 2015, we can be sure it will happen again. Please fix it now!
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