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Abigail Spanberger, Democratic Congresswoman: “I don’t want to hear the word Socialism ever again.” (1 Viewer)

timschochet said:
She got angry in a phone call: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/11/06/politics/abigail-spanberger-house-democrats-2020-election/index.html

And she’s right, IMO. Democratic socialism, defund the police, the public doesn’t want it. Democrats are going to continue to lose if they keep using these phrases. 
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Democrats are really bad at messaging. They choose slogans without considering how their opponents might exploit it to their own advantage.

 
It’s their far left flank: “Defund the Police” cost them so much support (and nearly the election) I’d bet in the post mortem 

 
The Democratic party must debunk and un-do all the false propaganda Trumps Campaign and Republican supporters (and many of those are soon going to disconnect from him and his rhetoric if they know what is good for them and their political futures) were spewing the last year or so in this election cycle. 

And they (Democratic party) will. Joe Biden is a moderate who knows how to negotiate and be non partisan. He knows how to compromise. 

Will the Republicans remember how to do the same? We as a country can only hope we get back to normalcy and meet in the middle and realize we can get things done but not everything we want. There is give and take. That is the essence of America.

 
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fatguyinalittlecoat said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
Republicans are smart enough not to self-identify as fascists.
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Political parties around the world call themselves socialist, I’m not aware of any that call themselves fascist.  The terms are pretty different.
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Republicans consistently win the public rhetoric game here.  They are so much better at it than the Democrats. In our country, the fact is that things like a living wage (seen as admirable in the UK), public health care (completely normal and expected throughout the civilized world), public education (same) and a minimal social security net for our most needy citizens is considered a radical, anti-American "socialist" agenda.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
Republicans consistently win the public rhetoric game here.  They are so much better at it than the Democrats. In our country, the fact is that things like a living wage (seen as admirable in the UK), public health care (completely normal and expected throughout the civilized world), public education (same) and a minimal social security net for our most needy citizens is considered a radical, anti-American "socialist" agenda.
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I was a registered Republican (I am now going to be an independent as Trump’s reign has pushed me far away from what was my party since I turned 18) my entire voting life. I never voted party lines though. I voted for who I felt was best for our country at that time.

Yet I always felt all the things you mentioned are part of the American way of life. We help those who need it. It is a product of our success. I do not agree with a living wage though. You gotta get out there an earn it if you are able.

I agree with Social Security (something we all pay into and it is vital for our seniors population), public education (of course) and a public health care option (not as the only way, as private health insurance is what I choose) as it has become necessary over the last 20 plus years with our fast growing and aging population. 

This dangerous rhetoric is what is driving the wedge between us. We forgot how to meet in the middle and figure out what can we do for all for the betterment of our entire country and our citizens. 

I love capitalism. I have become extremely successful and I am doing well. I have no problem paying my fair share and helping those less fortunate. 

What is so anti american about that? 

I am blown away at what some of our country has become in all this and pray we can return to being good to each other. And listening to each other. And helping each other. 

I am hopeful we will. The election really proved that to me. We can do this.

 
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Todem said:
I do not agree with a living wage though. You gotta get out there an earn it if you are able.
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I may be using the term wrong.  When I was young, my impression was that a man who worked hard 40-50 hours a week at a blue collar job could support a family with a couple kids and a roof over his head (probably a house).  Maybe I have an idealistic memory and that never was the case.  I don't like the concept of a minimum wage, but we are one of the most prosperous, successful countries in the world.  If someone shows up and works hard at a job 40+ hours a week, that should be enough for them to support a living.  My impression is that is no longet the case. That's all it means to me.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
I may be using the term wrong.  When I was young, my impression was that a man who worked hard 40-50 hours a week at a blue collar job could support a family with a couple kids and a roof over his head (probably a house).  Maybe I have an idealistic memory and that never was the case.  I don't like the concept of a minimum wage, but we are one of the most prosperous, successful countries in the world.  If someone shows up and works hard at a job 40+ hours a week, that should be enough for them to support a living.  My impression is that is no longet the case. That's all it means to me.
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100% agree with that.

I also voted “yes” to $15.00 an hour minimum wage in the state of Florida. 

When I got my first real job in 1985 at age 15 it was $3.35 an hour lol.

I was thinking about a national guaranteed minimum income. Or living wage regardless if you worked.

I am totally against that.

 
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Todem said:
100% agree with that.

I also voted “yes” to $15.00 an hour minimum wage in the state of Florida. 

When I got my first real job in 1985 at age 15 it was $3.35 an hour lol.

I was thinking about a national guaranteed minimum income. Or living wage regardless if you worked.

I am totally against that.
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The two most common terms for that are Universal Basic Income (UBI) or Basic Income Guarantee (BIG).  "Living wage" when used politically is typically exactly as @CletiusMaximus described.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
Republicans consistently win the public rhetoric game here.  They are so much better at it than the Democrats. In our country, the fact is that things like a living wage (seen as admirable in the UK), public health care (completely normal and expected throughout the civilized world), public education (same) and a minimal social security net for our most needy citizens is considered a radical, anti-American "socialist" agenda.
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It’s all language. Nothing to do with issues. 
Take two people in particular: Bernie Sanders and AOC. They are the ones who call themselves “Democratic Socialists”. If they never used that term, if they simply had from the start called themselves Democrats and promoted most of the exact same ideas, they would have been far more successful. 
And then we have the Black Lives Matter movement. After Floyd’s death they had nearly the entire nation on their side. And then suddenly some of their leaders started using the phrase “Defund the Police”. Total disaster. You couple that with some looting and violence (usually not by BLM types but it doesn’t matter) and you have a formula for Republican victory. And that’s exactly what happened: not for Trump because of Covid, but for much of  the rest of the contests.

Democrats were just stupid. They can’t win with this stuff. 

 
timschochet said:
She got angry in a phone call: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/11/06/politics/abigail-spanberger-house-democrats-2020-election/index.html

And she’s right, IMO. Democratic socialism, defund the police, the public doesn’t want it. Democrats are going to continue to lose if they keep using these phrases. 
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She's 100% right.  

My understanding is that Pelosi disagreed with her, justifying by saying they won the House and the Presidency.  She's delusional.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
I may be using the term wrong.  When I was young, my impression was that a man who worked hard 40-50 hours a week at a blue collar job could support a family with a couple kids and a roof over his head (probably a house).  Maybe I have an idealistic memory and that never was the case.  I don't like the concept of a minimum wage, but we are one of the most prosperous, successful countries in the world.  If someone shows up and works hard at a job 40+ hours a week, that should be enough for them to support a living.  My impression is that is no longet the case. That's all it means to me.
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Still can, but most people don't want to work a blue collar job.  I personally don't think raising entry level white collar jobs to that level is the answer.  I'd rather have some form of BIG for everyone.  That way the entry level white collar people can still survive while the hardworking blue collar people still see a reward.  

The other part of the equation is that when you were a kid there wasn't a $150-$200 a month cable/internet bill, a $50-$100 a month cell bill, and $600-$1000 per person $5000+ deductible health insurance bill (you company may be picking this up and limiting your pay).  

 
jm192 said:
She's 100% right.  

My understanding is that Pelosi disagreed with her, justifying by saying they won the House and the Presidency.  She's delusional.
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Not delusional. Pelosi is looking to be speaker again and she doesn’t want to be seriously challenged, so she has to play along with the progressives...unfortunately. 

 
Hypothetically... let's say in 2022/2024 Covid is still a problem and we're in a recession (or depression) as a result. Trump has stepped off to the side a bit aside from Twitter and the occasional appearance on Hannity to scream about how he was robbed. 

If the Democrats move away from the left, what exactly do they offer voters to differentiate themselves from standard issue Republicans?

 
KiddLattimer said:
Hypothetically... let's say in 2022/2024 Covid is still a problem and we're in a recession (or depression) as a result. Trump has stepped off to the side a bit aside from Twitter and the occasional appearance on Hannity to scream about how he was robbed. 

If the Democrats move away from the left, what exactly do they offer voters to differentiate themselves from standard issue Republicans?
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Well, there is an open space right now for one party to actually be all about long term fiscal responsibility.

 
One of my goals is to get Americans to stop being scared of "socialism" and the sorts of social safety nets common in places like Western Europe and Canada.  Treating the word "socialism" as some sort of dirty word akin to "fascism" is contrary to that interest.  

 
Alex P Keaton said:
Well, there is an open space right now for one party to actually be all about long term fiscal responsibility.
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Is that really what people want right now though? I mean in an ideal world I think we'd all want low taxes and money to be spent as wisely as possible, but we're on the brink of a depression with 5 hour bread lines and businesses closing left and right. I don't know if tightening our belts will make anything better in the next 5-10 years. 

 
KiddLattimer said:
Is that really what people want right now though? I mean in an ideal world I think we'd all want low taxes and money to be spent as wisely as possible, but we're on the brink of a depression with 5 hour bread lines and businesses closing left and right. I don't know if tightening our belts will make anything better in the next 5-10 years. 
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No - and it isn’t what I want.  But just like when a family borrows money.....our govt could be intelligent about where we spend it.  If I borrowed against my home equity to take 30 of my closest friends to Vegas for the weekend, that would probably be a poor investment.  But if I borrowed to get an advanced degree, open a business, etc — that might be a good investment that pays off in the future.

Similarly, our government could be borrowing now to invest in infrastructure, education, etc.  Instead it often seems like we are borrowing so that we can keep “going to the casino.”

 
KiddLattimer said:
Hypothetically... let's say in 2022/2024 Covid is still a problem and we're in a recession (or depression) as a result. Trump has stepped off to the side a bit aside from Twitter and the occasional appearance on Hannity to scream about how he was robbed. 

If the Democrats move away from the left, what exactly do they offer voters to differentiate themselves from standard issue Republicans?
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This seems like a really weird question to ask not even a week after watching a centrist Democrat win a national election.

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
One of my goals is to get Americans to stop being scared of "socialism" and the sorts of social safety nets common in places like Western Europe and Canada.  Treating the word "socialism" as some sort of dirty word akin to "fascism" is contrary to that interest.  
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Yep.  Polls repeatedly show that a wide majority of Americans favor policies that are common in Western Europe.  

 
Alex P Keaton said:
Similarly, our government could be borrowing now to invest in infrastructure, education, etc.  Instead it often seems like we are borrowing so that we can keep “going to the casino.”
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I know we've just spent the last four years laughing about infrastructure week, but I'm hoping Biden makes this a major agenda item.  A) Infrastructure spending is long overdue, B) This is a great time to get this done, with interest rates near zero, C) You'd think this is something that Biden can get bipartisan support for.

 
Alex P Keaton said:
No - and it isn’t what I want.  But just like when a family borrows money.....our govt could be intelligent about where we spend it.  If I borrowed against my home equity to take 30 of my closest friends to Vegas for the weekend, that would probably be a poor investment.  But if I borrowed to get an advanced degree, open a business, etc — that might be a good investment that pays off in the future.

Similarly, our government could be borrowing now to invest in infrastructure, education, etc.  Instead it often seems like we are borrowing so that we can keep “going to the casino.”
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Exactly... when it comes to endless war and wall street we always have trillions of bipartisan funds, but when it comes to anything for the people "how are we going to pay for that???"

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
One of my goals is to get Americans to stop being scared of "socialism" and the sorts of social safety nets common in places like Western Europe and Canada.  Treating the word "socialism" as some sort of dirty word akin to "fascism" is contrary to that interest.  
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That's going to be a tough road, though.  Like it or not, the word has been painted negatively.  Might be easier and more productive to simply come up with a new word and market it.

Companionism.  Cooperationism.  Collaborationism.  Supportism.

 
Rich Conway said:
That's going to be a tough road, though.  Like it or not, the word has been painted negatively.  Might be easier and more productive to simply come up with a new word and market it.

Companionism.  Cooperationism.  Collaborationism.  Supportism.
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That might possibly work as long as it isn't presented dishonestly.  But Spanberger's criticisms seemed to be more about policy than simply marketing. I'm not willing to give up on what I consider good policy just to get power.  These issues are important to me.  While we're considering the short term goals of winning elections we also need to keep in mind the long term goals of why we want to win elections in the first place.

 
timschochet said:
She got angry in a phone call: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/11/06/politics/abigail-spanberger-house-democrats-2020-election/index.html

And she’s right, IMO. Democratic socialism, defund the police, the public doesn’t want it. Democrats are going to continue to lose if they keep using these phrases. 
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The POTUS election should never have been this close. Should have been a landslide instead of coming down to the wire in so many states. Plus 5 seats lost were lost in the house when it should have been a gain.  When she said we keep doing this and we will get our asses kicked in 2022 the party should take notice.

 
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Rich Conway said:
That's going to be a tough road, though.  Like it or not, the word has been painted negatively.  Might be easier and more productive to simply come up with a new word and market it.

Companionism.  Cooperationism.  Collaborationism.  Supportism.
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In a lot of ways running away from the word makes it worse than it is. Take Trump for example, how many times did they try to hit him with "youre a bad guy" attacks and he basically said "I'm not saying I'm a good guy, I'm here to do XYZ".

If they call Biden or whoever a socialist over and over and they say "I'm not a socialist" the Republicans can find ways to make them look like hypocrites. For someone like Bernie they call him a socialist and he says "That's right, and here's what that means for the voters".  As long as it's done in a way that demonstrates what the benefits of socialism are it would work, especially when we're in a borderline crisis point like we are now.

 
KiddLattimer said:
Hypothetically... let's say in 2022/2024 Covid is still a problem and we're in a recession (or depression) as a result. Trump has stepped off to the side a bit aside from Twitter and the occasional appearance on Hannity to scream about how he was robbed. 

If the Democrats move away from the left, what exactly do they offer voters to differentiate themselves from standard issue Republicans?
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We need to deal with climate change for one. But we don’t need the Green New Deal. There’s got to be ways to fight it that aren’t so draconian. But we can’t ignore it the way Republicans have done. 

 
timschochet said:
We need to deal with climate change for one. But we don’t need the Green New Deal. There’s got to be ways to fight it that aren’t so draconian. But we can’t ignore it the way Republicans have done. 
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I hope there is such a way but from everything I've read (from scientists not politicians) all the Paris Climate agreement stuff isn't going to make a dent in climate change, maybe buy us a few years. They even said the GND isn't going to do enough, which quite frankly is terrifying.

 
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KiddLattimer said:
In a lot of ways running away from the word makes it worse than it is. Take Trump for example, how many times did they try to hit him with "youre a bad guy" attacks and he basically said "I'm not saying I'm a good guy, I'm here to do XYZ".

If they call Biden or whoever a socialist over and over and they say "I'm not a socialist" the Republicans can find ways to make them look like hypocrites. For someone like Bernie they call him a socialist and he says "That's right, and here's what that means for the voters".  As long as it's done in a way that demonstrates what the benefits of socialism are it would work, especially when we're in a borderline crisis point like we are now.
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agree with this.  somehow they have to draw a distinction between Venezuela style socialism and Scandinavian style socialism.  

The term "socialism" has been demonized by the far right, but you aren't going to win the far right anyways.  Need to focus on the middle, and right now, the far right is winning the messaging with the middle because they have associated socialism with Cuba or Venezuela.

 
timschochet said:
She got angry in a phone call: 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/11/06/politics/abigail-spanberger-house-democrats-2020-election/index.html

And she’s right, IMO. Democratic socialism, defund the police, the public doesn’t want it. Democrats are going to continue to lose if they keep using these phrases. 
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The labeling is completely wrong, but there's no question they want the actions behind the labels.  They can be angry all they want, but it's ultimately on them to market and sell their ideas.  This is in their laps.

 
moleculo said:
agree with this.  somehow they have to draw a distinction between Venezuela style socialism and Scandinavian style socialism.  

The term "socialism" has been demonized by the far right, but you aren't going to win the far right anyways.  Need to focus on the middle, and right now, the far right is winning the messaging with the middle because they have associated socialism with Cuba or Venezuela.
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This is rather simple to do.  Simply point to the things in this country that are already the "socialist" kinds of things they are talking about...things that we all enjoy and appreciate.  Schools, police, fire rescue / EMTs, military, removing the burden of our debt from the backs of the lower and middle class etc etc.  It's quite amazing their inability to articulate ideas.  This isn't a new problem.  You'd think they'd hire some strategists to help them with this kind of stuff...dumb problems to have.  

 
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We don't want socialism for individuals as long as we have it for corporations? We can't have both, right?

 
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IvanKaramazov said:
I know we've just spent the last four years laughing about infrastructure week, but I'm hoping Biden makes this a major agenda item.  A) Infrastructure spending is long overdue, B) This is a great time to get this done, with interest rates near zero, C) You'd think this is something that Biden can get bipartisan support for.
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The problem is unless the senate flips he doesn't need bipartisan support in the sense of having some support from GOP senators. He needs McConnell to agree to bring bills to the floor. Unless he can convince him to break that history, Biden will need majority support from the GOP senators for anything he wants to pass. I am not sure there are enough GOP senators who are interested in governing rather than just trying to win the next election for that to ever be the case.

I doubt anything has changed since 2010 for the GOP.

 
The Commish said:
This is rather simple to do.  Simply point to the things in this country that are already the "socialist" kinds of things they are talking about...things that we all enjoy and appreciate.  Schools, police, fire rescue / EMTs, military, removing the burden of our debt from the backs of the lower and middle class etc etc.  It's quite amazing their inability to articulate ideas.  This isn't a new problem.  You'd think they'd hire some strategists to help them with this kind of stuff...dumb problems to have.  
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I totally agree, the problem is they dont want to do it though

 
Many of you seem to think that it’s a question of explaining the actual benefits of socialism; that will serve to “undemonize” the word. 

That won’t work. 
  
The word “socialism” has been ingrained as poison in the public psyche. Perhaps that can be changed over a long period of time: I have no idea though I have my doubts. For the foreseeable future, it’s going to lose elections for Democrats and win them for Republicans. That’s the reality. 

 
The Commish said:
This is rather simple to do.  Simply point to the things in this country that are already the "socialist" kinds of things they are talking about...things that we all enjoy and appreciate.  Schools, police, fire rescue / EMTs, military, removing the burden of our debt from the backs of the lower and middle class etc etc.  It's quite amazing their inability to articulate ideas.  This isn't a new problem.  You'd think they'd hire some strategists to help them with this kind of stuff...dumb problems to have.  
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And this won’t work unless you can avoid the word “socialist” altogether. The minute you explain “this is what we already have that is socialist” or “this is why socialism isn’t that bad” the Republicans are already winning because you’re using the term. 

 
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