Actual Deaths From Covid-19 vs Reported Deaths (1 Viewer)

[Terminalxylem]

All I know is she is contemplating not doing what her company has asked her to do (rubber stamping COVID on as many cases as possible), which I am not in favor of as she could lose her job if she goes rogue.

She should do the right thing, and not perpetuate fraud.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

There was a story about doctors being encouraged to put any deaths they can link to the CV-19 no matter how inconsequential to put down CV-19 on the death certificate. 

-Is that story true? I don't know but they had credible doctors and hospital workers that went on record saying it. 

Does that mean I don't believe the number of deaths? I have some doubts but I'm not sure what the number matters at this point. 

 

[D_House]

She should do the right thing, and not perpetuate fraud.

Agreed. Definitely sounds like insurance fraud.

 

[BoltBacker]

Instead, it is getting labeled as a COVID case, and instead of a bill and a repayment for a couple hundred dollars, it goes in the COVID TREATMENT bucket. The government has a set amount they are reimbursing for COVID cases for Medicaid patients, so her company could potentially get reimbursed something crazy like $13,000 for a case that has nothing to do with COVID (in addition to adding to the stats used to determine if the virus numbers are declining or not . . . and potentially pushing out the stay at home mandate).

At her company, she thinks the number of reported cases is getting way overblown and doesn't want to contribute to the problem (as it is in their best interest to come up with MORE cases, not fewer). She also sees all the effort that went into prepping extra hospital beds for the masses of patients that never materialized (at least not yet). So in HER opinion, things are getting grossly misreported. (Mind you, I don't know if that is just her company, just locally, how other places are handling it, etc.)

First, I 100% believe what you are saying is true. 

- But I would think that treating someone that has tested positive for COVID probably does cost more to give care to than a person that hasn't been tested as positive for COVID, no? There is a price difference in treatment there.... and believe me, I think most medical bills in the US are inflated as much as possible even without a pandemic. Mostly though I don't understand how "the number of reported cases is getting way overblown" as your wife states. How does this story in any way show that the cases are being overblown? The patient has been coded positive for COVID because she was tested positive for COVID. The patient was reported as a COVID case because the patient was a COVID case as I understand your telling of things.

- The prepping extra hospital beds for the masses of patients that never materialized was based on the unknown of how citizens would react to being locked down and maybe in larger extent to how responsibly politicians(always a responsible and sensible group in the first place) would be in regard to imposing lockdowns imo. There is no REAL way to enforce a lockdown on large scale, it's pretty much an ask by government. If 50% of the population refused to stay locked down what would we really do about it? In the case of those unknowns, as well as having no real idea how it would spread even with the lockdowns being widely adhered to, if anything I would hope the health system error on the side of twice as much preparedness than half as much preparedness. We don't even know yet what level of preparedness was needed yet. Either way, I don't really understand how that demonstrates things are getting grossly misreported. 

Everything that your wife states seems legit to me. Will medical billing departments do everything(including fraud in many cases) to extract every last cent from each and every patient? I'm sure they will. Just as they did before the pandemic. Just as they will after the pandemic. But I'm just failing to see in your example here where the number of COVID cases are being misrepresented in any way. 

 

[BoltBacker]

The numbers are absolutely under reported.  US coroners have all but guaranteed it.  They can only list a death as being due to covid if they can confirm that with a test.  There aren’t and haven’t been enough tests to for people that are alive so coroners are not getting the test kits they need.   Also—there are lots of people that die from it at their homes as we are told to stay at  home and self isolate if we think we have it.  Just look at the number of excess deaths this year versus the past few years—they are like more than triple.  

Unless there is really medical fraud going on out there and the private sector has been incentive to profit from COVID deaths without actually performing COVID tests I don't understand how anyone can argue with this. 

It's truly amazing to me that more than a fifth of the people polled on this board are convinced that the number of COVID deaths are actually somehow lower that what is being reported. When the factual measurements of the weather were somehow being politicized I thought the country had hit a low point. But here we are.

The ironic thing is I would be willing to bet the 20%+ that think the numbers are being OVER-reported are probably the same ones that think it's vital that we keep a medical system in place that runs completely on profit driven incentives. 

 

[Faust]

Fauci Testifies U.S. Coronavirus Death Toll Is Likely Underreported

 

[Jutz]

Fauci Testifies U.S. Coronavirus Death Toll Is Likely Underreported

Birx said 'there is nothing from the CDC that I can trust' in a White House coronavirus task force meeting

 

[Binky The Doormat]

dammit ...Art Howe of Astros fame isn't doing well ...

Dinn Mann

@mooseoutfront

Root with might, please, for Art Howe, who is in ICU in a Houston hospital fighting Coronavirus. Admired as a player & manager, Howe, 73, has a loving family, countless friends & a lot left to give. He always had a super-utility, steady, calming presence in an Astros uniform.

 

[BoltBacker]

Birx said 'there is nothing from the CDC that I can trust' in a White House coronavirus task force meeting

This is an interesting read. 

I have nothing but respect for Birx but I have to admit I don't really understand how she says in one breath that "there is nothing from the CDC that I can trust" and just after that she says ""mortality is slowly declining each day" sooooooooo....... where is she getting THOSE statistics of declining mortality rates from? 

She's well respected but I'm starting to think the political pressures of her health/science based job are starting to get to her based on how she handled the whole disinfectant injection fiasco. The statement was made by the president on a Thursday. On the next day, Friday, the president explained that it was a "joke" or "sarcasm" or whatever. Which leads into the weekend, where Birx said, "It bothers me that this is still in the news cycle"??!!?? You mean the day or two after the president clarified whether he was serious or joking when he suggested injecting toxins into your bloodstream might be a way to fight covid "bothered" you when it was being reported by the media? The CDC and Lysol both gave statements on Friday not to act bat-#### crazy and listen to the president of the united states on this subject. That may be covered by the media for a day. Maybe even two. She may not trust anything from the CDC but if she thinks the warning from the CDC that US citizens SHOULDN'T be injecting disinfectants doesn't really need to be talked about for a day or two then she is dead wrong imo. If her goal is public health I don't see how anybody could possibly be bothered by that message is still in the news cycle.

Anyway, I think Birx has a great resume. But so do a whole lot of folks at the CDC. 

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Birx said 'there is nothing from the CDC that I can trust' in a White House coronavirus task force meeting

Birx is a schill for Trump.  Virtually every virologist and doctor knows that the death numbers for any pandemic are pretty much always under reported.  Countries don't want to panic citizens and destroy their markets.    China lied about the numbers, Russia acted like they had a handle on things--and now it's exposed that they are getting ripped apart by it, there have been riots and protests in Spain and Italy about how their governments were under reporting casualties, Iran has lied through their teeth about how many have really died as they want to avoid having the public revolt, and we are no different.   Birx wants job security--she's the one that sat there and shook her head while her boss juggled the idea of injecting and injesting disinfectant, bleach and uv-c light.  

 

[Roy L Fewks]

Birx said 'there is nothing from the CDC that I can trust' in a White House coronavirus task force meeting

Birx is a schill for Trump.  Virtually every virologist and doctor knows that the death numbers for any pandemic are pretty much always under reported.  Countries don't want to panic citizens and destroy their markets.    China lied about the numbers, Russia acted like they had a handle on things--and now it's exposed that they are getting ripped apart by it, there have been riots and protests in Spain and Italy about how their governments were under reporting casualties, Iran has lied through their teeth about how many have really died as they want to avoid having the public revolt, and we are no different.   Birx wants job security--she's the one that sat there and shook her head while her boss juggled the idea of injecting and injesting disinfectant, bleach and uv-c light.  

Notice that Birx doesn't actually say "I think the CDC numbers are too high"; she only says that she can't trust them.

It's the kind of vague statement that someone makes when they want their boss to think that they agree with him.

 

[BoltBacker]

Notice that Birx doesn't actually say "I think the CDC numbers are too high"; she only says that she can't trust them.

It's the kind of vague statement that someone makes when they want their boss to think that they agree with him.

Actually, in the article it says, "Birx and others feared that the CDC's statistics on mortality rate and case counts were inflated by up to 25%".... which seems like an even crazier claim. I wish there was an actual quote from her saying that because unless there's some basis for that specific speculation she holds about as much credibility on the subject as Stephen Miller. 

It's a shame because she had such a well respected career before taking this position. But William Barr has also bent over backwards to make a laughing stock out of himself after a long career so maybe it just reflects the amount of political pressure they are under. I would have thought it would be better to simply be fired than let their names be dragged through the mud like this. It's remarkable how Fauci has conducted himself by comparison.

Again, it's understandable to say that the accuracy of some of these numbers are unclear(especially with so little testing having been done) but it's a whole other thing to claim that "up to 25%" of mortality rates have been inflated. That is just a shocking claim unless it's simply politically motivated.

 

[BoltBacker]

 Birx wants job security--she's the one that sat there and shook her head while her boss juggled the idea of injecting and injesting disinfectant, bleach and uv-c light.  

It was actually worse than that imo. Shaking her head would have shown some degree of integrity by disagreeing with anything that he is saying. Instead she just sat there..... blinking and trying not to make eye contact by the end. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d57zJr82dhQ

Keep in mind that three days later she would be complaining that the media is still talking about this. JFC lady, you were there live and real time and had the blank look on your face of someone desperately hoping you can wake up from a nightmare.

 

[jon_mx]

Within a week, local Montezuma County Coroner George Deavers determined Yellow had died of acute alcohol poisoning, his blood alcohol measured at .55, nearly twice the lethal limit.

“It was almost double what the minimum lethal amount was in the state”, said Deavers, during an interview with CBS4.

But Deavers said that before he even signed the death certificate, the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment had already categorized Yellow’s death as being due to COVID-19 and it was tabulated that way on the state’s website.

“I can see no reason for this”, said Deavers.

Yellow’s death is the latest in Colorado raising eyebrows over the way the CDPHE is reclassifying deaths that runs contrary to what doctors and coroners initially ruled.

Franklin County Coroner Jeff Conner, for example, told PennLive Wednesday he’s had notice of four COVID-19 deaths with positive tests (only one of which was a Franklin resident), while the state’s count for Franklin County is at 10. 

These death counts simply are not all that reliable.  Many times the cause of deaths are determined by an elected coroner who is not required to be be a physician.  There are no national standard on how these deaths are counted.  You can't say a coronavirus death requires a positive test result.  That is just not true.  And just because there is a positive test result, that does not mean it necessarily was the cause of death.   So many of these deaths are in very old patients who have multiple conditions which contributed to their death.  There are so many discrepancies in reporting, testing, and determination it is impossible to say which way it is.  There is even politics which gets in the way of good data.  Some places are under-reporting and others are over-reporting.  Eventually there will be studies which look at statistical trends in deaths and compare it to the impact COVID-19 had.  I suspect there will be a spike and then a decline in the overall death numbers.

 

[culdeus]

The closest person to me that passed away of this was my Mother's long time friend.  She went to the hospital feeling quite ill and they swabbed her for it.   It came back positive, but her breathing was ok so they sent her home to recover.  Three nights later she had a massive stroke in her sleep and passed away.  

The family was given the option to list the death as either Covid or stroke.  They chose stroke.  

There was a similar case with a famous billionaire wife who gave tons of money to the area here, Ann Bass.  She was fighting cancer, but contracted covid in the hospital and died.  Family wanted to list it as cancer and got their wish.

These are just two anecdotes that I know of, one through a family member, and one who works for the Bass' non-profit.  Each would be undercounting the Covid fatality rate. 

 

[BoltBacker]

  There are no national standard on how these deaths are counted. You can't say a coronavirus death requires a positive test result.  That is just not true.  

But in the example you gave.... there was a positive result. Yellow tested positive. 

If you are saying that even the top physicians from around the world can't say with certainty how COVID contributes to other risks and health complications I think you are absolutely right. I can't say that COVID causes a heavy drinker(let's assume Yellow was a heavy drinker) to be more at risk than the same heavy drinker without COVID. But I also don't feel that anyone can say for certain that COVID doesn't affect people with all the health risks associated with drinking. The same holds even more true for people in nursing homes with often more complicated health issues. It's amazing to me that any doctor can be certain that testing positive for COVID wasn't a contributing factor to the time of their expiration. When I read "COVID deaths" I think it means people that tested positive for COVID(which had to be in the past few months) and died. Is it true that some % of that 100,000 people were going to die anyway in that couple of month window? Probably. But a much, much, much, much, much smaller % imo.

 

[jon_mx]

But in the example you gave.... there was a positive result. Yellow tested positive. 

If you are saying that even the top physicians from around the world can't say with certainty how COVID contributes to other risks and health complications I think you are absolutely right. I can't say that COVID causes a heavy drinker(let's assume Yellow was a heavy drinker) to be more at risk than the same heavy drinker without COVID. But I also don't feel that anyone can say for certain that COVID doesn't affect people with all the health risks associated with drinking. The same holds even more true for people in nursing homes with often more complicated health issues. It's amazing to me that any doctor can be certain that testing positive for COVID wasn't a contributing factor to the time of their expiration. When I read "COVID deaths" I think it means people that tested positive for COVID(which had to be in the past few months) and died. Is it true that some % of that 100,000 people were going to die anyway in that couple of month window? Probably. But a much, much, much, much, much smaller % imo.

The guy had a 0.55 blood alcohol level.  That is mind blowing high.  That is more than enough to kill anyone. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

But in the example you gave.... there was a positive result. Yellow tested positive. 

If you are saying that even the top physicians from around the world can't say with certainty how COVID contributes to other risks and health complications I think you are absolutely right. I can't say that COVID causes a heavy drinker(let's assume Yellow was a heavy drinker) to be more at risk than the same heavy drinker without COVID. But I also don't feel that anyone can say for certain that COVID doesn't affect people with all the health risks associated with drinking. The same holds even more true for people in nursing homes with often more complicated health issues. It's amazing to me that any doctor can be certain that testing positive for COVID wasn't a contributing factor to the time of their expiration. When I read "COVID deaths" I think it means people that tested positive for COVID(which had to be in the past few months) and died. Is it true that some % of that 100,000 people were going to die anyway in that couple of month window? Probably. But a much, much, much, much, much smaller % imo.

He would have pulled through that bender if he didnt have Covid? 

 

[BoltBacker]

He would have pulled through that bender if he didnt have Covid? 

"Is it true that some % of that 100,000 people were going to die anyway in that couple of month window? Probably. But a much, much, much, much, much smaller % imo."

 

[BoltBacker]

The guy had a 0.55 blood alcohol level.  That is mind blowing high.  That is more than enough to kill anyone. 

EDIT:

Honestly, this just seems like one of those debates where one side says, "Well sure 999 climate scientists are convinced that some climate change is linked to human behavior. BUT there's this one climate scientist that disagrees with them. So there you go...... the truth lies somewhere in the middle. WE JUST CAN'T KNOW."

So you just keep looking for your six leaf clovers that prove it's impossible to know why nearly 100,000 people just happened to pass away between February and May and coincidentally tested positive for COVID before they passed away. Would some of those people stepped in front of a bus even without having tested positive for COVID? Or would some of them got hit by lightning? Probably.

If anyone wants to use "WE JUST CAN'T KNOW" as to why people testing positive for COVID happen to be dying it's fine with me. We don't have to agree. This just seems like the next argument that comes after, "But what you don't realize is 30k people die every year from the common FLU in a YEAR(12 months for those of you counting at home)! So really when you compare this situation to that....".