Acupuncture, who’s done it? (1 Viewer)

[Smoo]

So does regular science, unfortunately. I’ll take a benign placebo over malignant treatment just about every time.

I’d much rather someone try acupuncture than rely on muscle relaxers or opioids for chronic low back pain, for example.

That's like saying you'd much rather have them try Dr. McGillimurky's All-Purpose Miracle Tonic* than rely on opiods. That may be true, but that doesn't mean we should be supporting Dr. McGillimurky's fraudulent business, nor should we be confusing people about what may or may not qualify as an actual remedy.

*assertion: DM'sAPMT has no harmful side effects but also doesn't do anything at all. maybe quenches thirst slightly.

 

[Terminalxylem]

That's like saying you'd much rather have them try Dr. McGillimurky's All-Purpose Miracle Tonic* than rely on opiods. That may be true, but that doesn't mean we should be supporting Dr. McGillimurky's fraudulent business, nor should we be confusing people about what may or may not qualify as an actual remedy.

*assertion: DM'sAPMT has no harmful side effects but also doesn't do anything at all. maybe quenches thirst slightly.

Not quite, as there is data (albeit methodologically imperfect) suggesting modest benefit from acupuncture for chronic LBP. Moreover, there ain't much harm in trying it in an attempt to minimize use of meds with side effects and potential for abuse/addiction.

DM'sAPMT has no such data to my knowledge, nor studies assessing its safety/toxicity.

I'm not saying a conventional medical practitioner should glowingly endorse acupuncture. Rather, they should inform their patients regarding limitations of the studies supporting its use, and allow them to make an informed decision to try acupuncture instead of/in addition to conventional therapies.

Not all treatments can/will be rigorously studied. Here's a classic example:

Abstract

Objective To determine if using a parachute prevents death or major traumatic injury when jumping from an aircraft.

Design Randomized controlled trial.

Setting Private or commercial aircraft between September 2017 and August 2018.

Participants 92 aircraft passengers aged 18 and over were screened for participation. 23 agreed to be enrolled and were randomized.

Intervention Jumping from an aircraft (airplane or helicopter) with a parachute versus an empty backpack (unblinded).

Main outcome measures Composite of death or major traumatic injury (defined by an Injury Severity Score over 15) upon impact with the ground measured immediately after landing.

Results Parachute use did not significantly reduce death or major injury (0% for parachute v 0% for control; P>0.9). This finding was consistent across multiple subgroups. Compared with individuals screened but not enrolled, participants included in the study were on aircraft at significantly lower altitude (mean of 0.6 m for participants v mean of 9146 m for non-participants; P<0.001) and lower velocity (mean of 0 km/h v mean of 800 km/h; P<0.001).

Conclusions Parachute use did not reduce death or major traumatic injury when jumping from aircraft in the first randomized evaluation of this intervention. However, the trial was only able to enroll participants on small stationary aircraft on the ground, suggesting cautious extrapolation to high altitude jumps. When beliefs regarding the effectiveness of an intervention exist in the community, randomized trials might selectively enroll individuals with a lower perceived likelihood of benefit, thus diminishing the applicability of the results to clinical practice.

With acupuncture, the logistics of a sham control make assessing benefit beyond placebo effect difficult. On top of that, the available evidence doesn't give clear guidance regarding appropriate pharmacologic therapy either, so many doctors are happy for patients to try benign alternatives.

 

[Smoo]

Not quite, as there is data (albeit methodologically imperfect) suggesting modest benefit from acupuncture for chronic LBP.

There's also "data" and "studies" that claim the Earth is flat. It's about quality.

 

[Terminalxylem]

There's also "data" and "studies" that claim the Earth is flat. It's about quality.

Thats' right. There is no good evidence the earth is flat, and plenty of evidence to the contrary.

There are multiple meta analyses which suggest acupuncture can help. I've already linked one, so the onus is on you to disprove/refute their conclusions. Here's another.

 

[AAABatteries]

There are no well designed studies showing muscle relaxers do a better job than placebo in alleviating chronic low back pain, the type of pain described by the OP.

Acute low back pain is another matter, as one muscle relaxer, cyclobenzaprine (Flexeril), has been shown to modestly alleviate discomfort for the first few days after a new injury. From a practical standpoint, it probably doesn't matter if they actually prevent muscle spasm or control pain through some other mechanism.

If they manage your pain and you don't have issues with side effects, great. But realize the supporting evidence is limited to acute pain treated with Flexeril, not any other drug. And there is addiction/abuse potential with cyclobenzaprine and many of the other meds billed as muscle relaxers.

Flexiril is what I’ve been given in the past and it did help. My pain was always acute - I have no chronic back pain.  That makes more sense to me based on my experience.  

 

[jhib]

Another thing that makes sorting through the research fun is that almost 100% of the studies coming out of China find acupuncture to be effective.  That shouldn't be the case even if it really did work, and is a sure sign of funny business.