You are specifically looking for Patriots "penalties" because you want there to be some conspiracy to explain their success. The referees called ONE holding penalty all game and that was when a Jaguars OL blatantly tackled a Patriots defender. That penalty was declined.
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AFC Championship - Patriots Hold Off Jags (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter East Coast Bias
- Start date
lol watching football on a high definition TV with slow motion replays and rewind capabilities <> calling a game live.
Dickie Dunn
Footballguy
Here are all of the flags that were thrown:
1. False start on JAX (Jags scored on this drive)
2. Holding on NE on punt return (NE punted on this drive)
***
3. Illegal shift on JAX (on the play when they tried to hurry-up to avoid the challenge on the Cole sideline catch)
4. Delay of game on JAX (killer call, overturned a JAX first down right before the two-minute warning)
5. Holding on JAX (penalty declined, Bortles was sacked on this play)
*** Note: These three penalties came on the same set of downs in a span of five snaps
6. Unnecessary roughness on JAX (hit on Gronk)
7. Pass interference on JAX (next play after No. 6, two plays before Pats touchdown before half)
8. Pass interference on JAX (Pats punted four plays later, giving ball back to JAX with the lead and under 6:00 to go)
1. False start on JAX (Jags scored on this drive)
2. Holding on NE on punt return (NE punted on this drive)
***
3. Illegal shift on JAX (on the play when they tried to hurry-up to avoid the challenge on the Cole sideline catch)
4. Delay of game on JAX (killer call, overturned a JAX first down right before the two-minute warning)
5. Holding on JAX (penalty declined, Bortles was sacked on this play)
*** Note: These three penalties came on the same set of downs in a span of five snaps
6. Unnecessary roughness on JAX (hit on Gronk)
7. Pass interference on JAX (next play after No. 6, two plays before Pats touchdown before half)
8. Pass interference on JAX (Pats punted four plays later, giving ball back to JAX with the lead and under 6:00 to go)
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Not sure why this is so hard- how about stop watching and complaining about a sport some of you seem to actually believe is rigged or scripte somehow?
The Duff Man
Footballguy
In. Although I don't think it is rigged, I just think refs influence the game WAY too much and too inconsistently.
Gave up season tickets this year, and watch the games similar to how I would watch WWE....it is entertainment and I am not emotionally invested in the outcome.
Football is fun again!!
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Okay snowflake. When you asked how many holding calls Jax had. I answered honestly. You don't have that capacity in you. Work on that. Nite.
JuniorGong
Footballguy
As a Pats fan I can certainly admit they seem to get the benefit of a lot of calls that go their way. However, I don’t go so far as to think it is a league wide conspiracy. I’m more likely to compare it to how Jordan, LeBron and other superstars in the NBA get the benefit of favorable whistles.
NutterButter
Footballguy
I thought Jacksonville played a fine game. They didn't turn the ball over and besides the one PI, they didn't kill themselves in the 2nd half with penalties. This is just the Pats doing what they always do and that's making the necessary in game adjustments. The jags offense is extremely mediocre across the board. They have pretty much no one that scares you. It was just a matter of time before the Pats figured out what needed to be done to stop them.
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leave a whisper
Footballguy
game def seemed called slightly tighter on one side --- only call i 100% disagree with though was the PI call, no way Cooks catches that ball and Cooks was hand checking twice as much as the defender
fumble play was close, i can see both sides ......
fumble play was close, i can see both sides ......
I heard something on the radio that the biggest complaints on Twitter last week (Divisional Round) were -
1) The refs called too many penalties.
2) The refs let too much go.
If I can find the reference I’ll post it. But in the mean time people should watch this on holding -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n89tMUFd5Sk
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WLqib4RRd-E
The second video even addresses why holding isn’t called on every play. Got to say the terms “material obstruction” and “rip move” weren’t in my vocabulary.
I’ve always prescribed to the theory that you could call holding on every play at the line but now I’m thinking maybe the refs do a better job than a lot of people give them credit for
1) The refs called too many penalties.
2) The refs let too much go.
If I can find the reference I’ll post it. But in the mean time people should watch this on holding -
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n89tMUFd5Sk
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WLqib4RRd-E
The second video even addresses why holding isn’t called on every play. Got to say the terms “material obstruction” and “rip move” weren’t in my vocabulary.
I’ve always prescribed to the theory that you could call holding on every play at the line but now I’m thinking maybe the refs do a better job than a lot of people give them credit for
If you think Brady isn't tough, you're not watching enough of his games.
Well, if you tune in to watch the SB every year...that's a decent amount of games...but Brady has been getting hammered the last 3-4 years routinely and never misses a snap.
Yup, the tin-foil hat conspiracy is absolutely true. Referee Clete Blakeman is secretly a Pats homer, but has cleverly pretended to be anti-Patriots since Nov 2012:
- Nov 2012: Over-ruled obvious PI that made Patriots lose vs. Carolina
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/30/sports/super-bowl-50-referee-clete-blakeman.html
"More memorable was a regular-season game in November 2012 between the Carolina Panthers and the New England Patriots in which a potential game-winning pass by Tom Brady was picked off in the end zone. A flag was initially thrown for pass interference on Luke Kuechly, but it was picked up, with Blakeman explaining later that the ball was uncatchable, to the annoyance of New England fans."
- Jan 2015: All of Blakeman's PSI readings on Deflategate balls were lower than the other official who also measured PSI
"All 12 Patriot balls were found to be below the legal inflation level. The two officials used different pressure gauges, and Blakeman’s showed lower levels on every ball."
- Jan 2018: Blakeman decided to throw the game for the Patriots, completing his secret sleeper conspiracy! A 6-year long con, mission accomplished!
- Nov 2012: Over-ruled obvious PI that made Patriots lose vs. Carolina
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/30/sports/super-bowl-50-referee-clete-blakeman.html
"More memorable was a regular-season game in November 2012 between the Carolina Panthers and the New England Patriots in which a potential game-winning pass by Tom Brady was picked off in the end zone. A flag was initially thrown for pass interference on Luke Kuechly, but it was picked up, with Blakeman explaining later that the ball was uncatchable, to the annoyance of New England fans."
- Jan 2015: All of Blakeman's PSI readings on Deflategate balls were lower than the other official who also measured PSI
"All 12 Patriot balls were found to be below the legal inflation level. The two officials used different pressure gauges, and Blakeman’s showed lower levels on every ball."
- Jan 2018: Blakeman decided to throw the game for the Patriots, completing his secret sleeper conspiracy! A 6-year long con, mission accomplished!
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I thought the refs should have called defensive pass interference three times on the Pats when they did not. Those non-calls would have extended drives, maybe allowed for scores, and taken time off of the clock. On the other hand I thought there were two non-calls the other way.
I was entertained.
I was entertained.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
I don't think it is a conspiracy either. Just bad decision making by the Zebras. I will be shocked if that crew goes to the SB.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
The refs officiated the secondary pretty loose the entire game on both sides. Then all of the sudden they give a nit pick PI call to Patriots for 30 or something yards in a critical situation. Oh, and this happened to be the Pats biggest play of the whole game, or close to it.
Patriots might have won anyway, and it might not be a conspiracy. But don't tell me that call wasn't horse crap or this game was fairly officiated.
Patriots might have won anyway, and it might not be a conspiracy. But don't tell me that call wasn't horse crap or this game was fairly officiated.
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Short Corner
Footballguy
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Great job Tommy! We did it!
https://mobile.twitter.com/OurStateCSU/status/955215619909193729/video/1
https://mobile.twitter.com/OurStateCSU/status/955215619909193729/video/1
Run It Up
Footballguy
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Steeler
Footballguy
that call was the greatest piece of officiating I have ever seen. Guy was in the right place, held the flag as long as possible, but when BOO-YEAH crossed the "let them play line" the flag came out... perfect execution by the official.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
Corner had position. What was he supposed to do, let Cooks go past him to catch the ball thrown 5 yards inside?
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cloppbeast
Footballguy
You're like a PR guy for the NFL or something?
It was too handsy? Come on. I could see that on a play where the ball was right there.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
I didn't think it was PI. If anything (questionable even at that) it could have been defensive holding. When your hands are locked up with a receiver, you run the risk of being flagged. That's why I was saying he he continued down the field with his arms in the air with Cooks behind him, they would not have been able to call anything.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
IC FBGCav said:
I knew this would happen. Refs let the Steelers and Jags play the previous week-- not so yesterday.
cloppbeast
Footballguy
The refs let the Jags and Pats play too - for 3 quarters and 8 minutes. Then about-faced on one play, which just happened to go for 40 yards.
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cloppbeast
Footballguy
PI and defensive holding contains judgement, so the refs have to set a precedent throughout the game. They can't just up and change their threshhold in the 4th quarter on a huge play. At a minimum call it holding which goes for 5 yards, that's a little more fair.
I respect if you think it's PI, because it was debatable iffy. But it was inconsistent with the rest of the game. That's what makes it bull crap.
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Instead of blaming the refs, maybe the Jags shouldn't have kept running the *same exact* play on every 1st and 2nd down in the 4th quarter.
https://www.theringer.com/nfl-playoffs/2018/1/22/16920298/super-bowl-new-england-patriots-tom-brady-bill-belichick-hate
"In a phenomenal Twitter thread, football analytics guru Warren Sharp pointed out the near-unbelievable predictability of the Jaguars offense in the fourth quarter: Every first-down snap was a run from shotgun, and every second down was a downfield pass. Jacksonville had six snaps in the fourth quarter with a running clock and the lead, but at no point did it drain the play clock to five seconds. (Remind you of anything, Falcons fans?)"
https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status/955454941073731584
"Every. Single. First. Down. Was. A. Run. From. Shotgun. You think the Patriots didn't figure that out? Look at the totals on those four 1st & 10 runs as the quarter progressed: 2 yds 1 yd 1 yd -1 yd"
"Every. Single. Second. Down. Was. A. Long. Pass. Downfield. These are all 2nd and long situations with a 4Q lead. Goals are either: bleed clock or set up 3rd and manageable. Instead, look at the distance of these passes: 20 yds 20 yds 35 yds 17 yds"
"The Jaguars had 6 snaps in the 4th quarter, with a moving clock & a lead (if you include the 1 punt). They NEVER ran the play clock to even 5 seconds, let alone inside 5 seconds. 4 of the 6 snaps were with 9-13 seconds on the play clock."
https://www.theringer.com/nfl-playoffs/2018/1/22/16920298/super-bowl-new-england-patriots-tom-brady-bill-belichick-hate
"In a phenomenal Twitter thread, football analytics guru Warren Sharp pointed out the near-unbelievable predictability of the Jaguars offense in the fourth quarter: Every first-down snap was a run from shotgun, and every second down was a downfield pass. Jacksonville had six snaps in the fourth quarter with a running clock and the lead, but at no point did it drain the play clock to five seconds. (Remind you of anything, Falcons fans?)"
https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status/955454941073731584
"Every. Single. First. Down. Was. A. Run. From. Shotgun. You think the Patriots didn't figure that out? Look at the totals on those four 1st & 10 runs as the quarter progressed: 2 yds 1 yd 1 yd -1 yd"
"Every. Single. Second. Down. Was. A. Long. Pass. Downfield. These are all 2nd and long situations with a 4Q lead. Goals are either: bleed clock or set up 3rd and manageable. Instead, look at the distance of these passes: 20 yds 20 yds 35 yds 17 yds"
"The Jaguars had 6 snaps in the 4th quarter, with a moving clock & a lead (if you include the 1 punt). They NEVER ran the play clock to even 5 seconds, let alone inside 5 seconds. 4 of the 6 snaps were with 9-13 seconds on the play clock."
Tau837
Footballguy
You seem to be confusing the two DPI calls. The one on Bouye that seems to be controversial was in the second quarter. The one on Ramsey, which was blatant and correct, was in the fourth quarter.
Tau837
Footballguy
JAX was called for 6 penalties: 1 false start, 1 illegal shift, 1 delay of game, 1 unnecessary roughness for the hit on Gronk, and the 2 DPI calls. The DPI call on Bouye seems questionable, but is anyone debating the other ones? Furthermore, all but the Ramsey DPI call were made in the first half. The Ramsey call was blatant and obvious, so questionable/bad calls against the Jags did not cause them to fold in the second half.
So those who are up in arms over this are up in arms over a single call, which is known to be one of the less consistently officiated penalties in the game? Or is it about calls not made against the Pats? I have seen complaints about Amendola head butting Church after a play but didn't see that play. I have seen complaints about offensive holding on Lewis's last big run, though I strongly doubt making that call would have changed the outcome of the game. And I have seen complaints about the refs ruling Jack down and blowing the play dead on the Lewis strip and fumble recovery, but I thought he was down and, frankly, wasn't even sure if it was a fumble, since it seemed that Lewis had the ball pinned on his leg when his knee/leg touched down.
Young, brash, inexperienced playoff team gets 6 penalties, 5 of which are not in dispute. Veteran, experienced, disciplined playoff team gets 1 penalty, and presumably got away with a few non-calls (but is that to suggest that JAX got away with none? doubtful). Seems like much ado about nothing IMO.
So those who are up in arms over this are up in arms over a single call, which is known to be one of the less consistently officiated penalties in the game? Or is it about calls not made against the Pats? I have seen complaints about Amendola head butting Church after a play but didn't see that play. I have seen complaints about offensive holding on Lewis's last big run, though I strongly doubt making that call would have changed the outcome of the game. And I have seen complaints about the refs ruling Jack down and blowing the play dead on the Lewis strip and fumble recovery, but I thought he was down and, frankly, wasn't even sure if it was a fumble, since it seemed that Lewis had the ball pinned on his leg when his knee/leg touched down.
Young, brash, inexperienced playoff team gets 6 penalties, 5 of which are not in dispute. Veteran, experienced, disciplined playoff team gets 1 penalty, and presumably got away with a few non-calls (but is that to suggest that JAX got away with none? doubtful). Seems like much ado about nothing IMO.
Bossman
Footballguy
Hopefully these people aren't complaining about the other calls .... that would be pretty sad.
What I'm reading in here is that these complainers wanted the refs to bail out the Jagwires with lots of holding calls on NE.
Bossman
Footballguy
Yes, Patriot SB's are so boring and uneventful.Super stoked about another Patriot's Super Bowl.
Guess we'll find a good movie that weekend.
Who wants to see a SB won on a last second FG ... or that David Tyree helmet catch, .... or a 25 point comeback to win in OT.
ETA; ... almost forgot that silly last minute INT on 2nd and goal from the 1. Sheesh. BO-RING.
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Bossman
Footballguy
Glad this "Jagwires would have won if ..." angle has been debunked.
I think JAX was fortunate to get the ball there. If indeed the refs were favoring NE, they could have said Lewis having the ball pinned to his hip was considered control .. and he was down by contact before he lost it.
David Tyree pinned the ball to his helmet and made a drive saving catch leading to a Super Bowl win ... so I would think pinning the ball to a body part is also considered "control".
I honestly don't think Lewis fumbled either. He wasn't holding the football in a convential way after it came loose, but he had two hands on it and it didn't move for a full second pinned to his leg. It moves/comes lose once he is clearly down by the tackle. It's funny how the people crying don't mention this at all.
The Patriots are consistently one of the lowest penalized teams in the league. 100% agree they are disciplined and experienced and also the most likely team not to employ players who make foolish mistakes.
The article I posted in the game theory thread suggested they even study the habits and tendencies of the referees. It wouldn't be surprising if they push the limits/call different plays based on those findings.
They were even complaining about the Gronk hit (obvious) and delay of game (obvious). All of the Jaguars fans also complained last week when the Steelers were making a comeback that the league wanted a Steelers-Patriots game. The whole thing was sad to watch.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I have heard former Patriots players interviewed where they mentioned the Patriots staff has discussed things like who the officiating crews are, what they tend to call, how to get leverage on players while defending (ie OFFICIAL X won't call it if you do Y), and certainly that the refs generally swallow their whistles near the end of games. Just another case of situational football being coached up and on display. It's not holding or pass interference if it's not called. But if a player knows that he can get away with it, is it a case of poor officiating or really good coaching?
Short Corner
Footballguy
And he ran him him out of bounds with his back to the ball.cloppbeast said:
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I am guessing that all the non-Pats fans would claim it is cheating and that they are the only team to use those shady tactics.
Dickie Dunn
Footballguy
Apparently in 18 games this season (including playoffs), the Patriots were the most penalized team eight times. So only 10-8 in their favor.
Bossman
Footballguy
I can play that game too ...
The play that Gronk was concussed should have also been called pass interference...
the other defender falls and reaches for Gronks legs, causing him to stumble and slow down before the ball gets there.
Yeah, you can't just fall into the back of the legs of the receiver when he beats you.
NE should have got the ball at that spot ...PLUS the 15 yard personal foul.
The play that Gronk was concussed should have also been called pass interference...
the other defender falls and reaches for Gronks legs, causing him to stumble and slow down before the ball gets there.
Yeah, you can't just fall into the back of the legs of the receiver when he beats you.
NE should have got the ball at that spot ...PLUS the 15 yard personal foul.
Short Corner
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
This. I hate New England as much as the next guy, but Jacksonville has only themselves to blame for this. Just brutal.Instead of blaming the refs, maybe the Jags shouldn't have kept running the *same exact* play on every 1st and 2nd down in the 4th quarter.
https://www.theringer.com/nfl-playoffs/2018/1/22/16920298/super-bowl-new-england-patriots-tom-brady-bill-belichick-hate
"In a phenomenal Twitter thread, football analytics guru Warren Sharp pointed out the near-unbelievable predictability of the Jaguars offense in the fourth quarter: Every first-down snap was a run from shotgun, and every second down was a downfield pass. Jacksonville had six snaps in the fourth quarter with a running clock and the lead, but at no point did it drain the play clock to five seconds. (Remind you of anything, Falcons fans?)"
https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status/955454941073731584
"Every. Single. First. Down. Was. A. Run. From. Shotgun. You think the Patriots didn't figure that out? Look at the totals on those four 1st & 10 runs as the quarter progressed: 2 yds 1 yd 1 yd -1 yd"
"Every. Single. Second. Down. Was. A. Long. Pass. Downfield. These are all 2nd and long situations with a 4Q lead. Goals are either: bleed clock or set up 3rd and manageable. Instead, look at the distance of these passes: 20 yds 20 yds 35 yds 17 yds"
"The Jaguars had 6 snaps in the 4th quarter, with a moving clock & a lead (if you include the 1 punt). They NEVER ran the play clock to even 5 seconds, let alone inside 5 seconds. 4 of the 6 snaps were with 9-13 seconds on the play clock."
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Thats some pretty awful play calling and clock management. The moment got too big for them
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
This is the stuff that most people don't realize (I didn't know it was this bad too) as the games are going on, and sadly it doesn't get talked about on the sports shows either. The refs are an easy target and something that any average viewer can pick up on if something is missed. Sure it was the refs fault - never the fault of the other team for calling the same stuff over and over or plays that the Pats know are coming in certain situations.Instead of blaming the refs, maybe the Jags shouldn't have kept running the *same exact* play on every 1st and 2nd down in the 4th quarter.
https://www.theringer.com/nfl-playoffs/2018/1/22/16920298/super-bowl-new-england-patriots-tom-brady-bill-belichick-hate
"In a phenomenal Twitter thread, football analytics guru Warren Sharp pointed out the near-unbelievable predictability of the Jaguars offense in the fourth quarter: Every first-down snap was a run from shotgun, and every second down was a downfield pass. Jacksonville had six snaps in the fourth quarter with a running clock and the lead, but at no point did it drain the play clock to five seconds. (Remind you of anything, Falcons fans?)"
https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status/955454941073731584
"Every. Single. First. Down. Was. A. Run. From. Shotgun. You think the Patriots didn't figure that out? Look at the totals on those four 1st & 10 runs as the quarter progressed: 2 yds 1 yd 1 yd -1 yd"
"Every. Single. Second. Down. Was. A. Long. Pass. Downfield. These are all 2nd and long situations with a 4Q lead. Goals are either: bleed clock or set up 3rd and manageable. Instead, look at the distance of these passes: 20 yds 20 yds 35 yds 17 yds"
"The Jaguars had 6 snaps in the 4th quarter, with a moving clock & a lead (if you include the 1 punt). They NEVER ran the play clock to even 5 seconds, let alone inside 5 seconds. 4 of the 6 snaps were with 9-13 seconds on the play clock."
Yenrub
Footballguy
I think it its the 2 times in the 4th quarter that M. Lewis was interfered with that weren't called that most people were referencing
THIS.
I watched the game again and Jax shot themselves in the foot on 3 of those penalties - illegal shift, false start and delay of game. Surely, even the saltiest of NE haters don't blame the refs for those calls...right?
Gronk's hit was clear as day (penalty #4). Marrone acknowledged during halftime interview on way to lockers. Of the two PI calls, the one with Cooks up the sideline would be the only one potentially disputed. The other one - the defender basically had the receivers head wrapped up with both arms. Clear as day and obvious PI. Now, back to the PI up the sidelines...in my opinion, the ball wasn't "catchable" because the defender rode Cooks out of bounds and was using his hands on Cooks for about 15 of those yards deep into the route. I think it was a good call. Could it have been holding? Maybe. However, he impeded the receiver from getting to the ball. That, coupled with handsy Mcmeathands groping Cooks...bingo.
There also were many other plays that weren't called...on both sides. Some holds by Jax and NE at the line. Gilmore also had his jersey grabbed during Fournette's early run in the RZ.
