Alcoholics Anonymous (1 Viewer)

[shining path]

No AA, but I do regularly attend a support group for men struggling with testicular cancer, a group for t.b. sufferers, and my bi-monthly sickle cell circle.

hmmm...

 

[TommyGilmore]

I believe AA has about a 10% success rate. It's not for everyone, but it does help some of the people who are in the worst shape.

That number seems alarmingly low.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I believe AA has about a 10% success rate. It's not for everyone, but it does help some of the people who are in the worst shape.

That number seems alarmingly low.

from wikipedia:

There is no official creed of A.A. belief about alcoholism, since individual members are free to believe whatever they wish based on their own experiences. Even the core twelve step program is presented to members as suggested rather than mandatory. While AA literature states that "our twelve steps are only suggestions", many more traditionally-minded members claim that today's decreased emphasis on "Step Work" has resulted in a drastic decline in AA's success rate. Many others point out that the substitution of idolatrous "gods" in place of the Creator as the source of strength and guidance is largely responsible for the low success rates today. In the early days of AA, say critics of today's meeting-centred brand of Alcoholics Anonymous, the 12 Steps were mandatory and attendance at meetings were optional. They claim that during this time, AA experienced 75-93% success rates of recovery{{Big Book preface and DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers}. Bill Wilson, who had originally claimed this level of success, admitted at DR Bobs funeral speech - that AA success has always been in the single digit percent range. This statement, if made, flouted an entire decade of newspaper articles, magazine items, and A.A. statements as to the large number actually cured. And, out of the "First Forty " pioneers in Akron, 50% had maintained continuous sobriety for at least two years; and another 25% had relapsed but returned. In early Cleveland A.A., the documented success rate was 93%. In recent years however, the Fellowship has shifted its views greatly and some veteran AA members advise newcomers that meetings are mandatory while placing less emphasis on "working the steps". Some blame this lessened emphasis on The Twelve Steps for a first-time sobriety success rate of approximately 5%, according to an internal study conducted by AA Intergroup in 1988. Other estimates put overall success rates however somewhere between 5 and 10%. Given that AA's membership is by definition, anonymous, and its administrative body -- the General Service Office, General Service Board and annual General Service Conference -- acknowledges the importance of anonymity, no records are kept on AA members, so non-anecdotal data about success rates cannot be obtained from official AA sources.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

great stuff at the wikipedia page if anyone is interested in reading both sides of the debate on AA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

for those who may not be aware of some of the criticisms of AA (there are many):

Specific criticisms of AA (some of whom go so far as to call AA a cult) include:There have been at least three randomized clinical trials that studied the effectiveness of AA. Specifically: Ditman et al. 1967; Brandsma et al. 1980; Walsh et al. 1991. Dr. Ditman found that participation in A.A. increased the alcoholics' rate of rearrest for public drunkenness.[1] Dr. Brandsma found that A.A. increased the rate of binge drinking. After several months of indoctrination with A.A. 12-Step dogma, the alcoholics in A.A. were doing five times as much binge drinking as a control group that got no treatment at all, and nine times as much binge drinking as another group that got Rational Behavior Therapy. Brandsma alleges that teaching people that they are alcoholics who are powerless over alcohol yields very bad results and that it becomes a self-fulfilling prediction -- they relapse and binge drink as if they really were powerless over alcohol.[2] And Dr. Walsh found that the so-called "free" A.A. program was actually very expensive -- it affected patients so that they required longer periods of costly hospitalization later on.[3] While AA acknowledged in the foreword to the second edition of the Big Book that "we surely have no monopoly", one of the stories following the main text of the book still claims that AA is "the only remedy" to alcohol abuse (BB, pg. 259. Emphasis added.), despite some current research which shows that high percentages of alcohol abusers recover without medical treatment (Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.). Another study suggests that AA may be "no better than the natural history of the disease" in keeping people alive and sober (The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery, George E. Vaillant, pgs. 283-286.) The claim that people who refuse to work the program thoroughly, or do but are not helped by it, are "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" (BB, pg. 58.), implies that, by definition, the AA program itself is incapable of failure, provided that the alcoholic is properly motivated. This seems to deny the existence of honest, motivated individuals for whom the program doesn't work. ("[C]onstitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves", in this view, would have nothing to do with motivation and everything to do with being thorough through the steps, and when the truth gets to be too much, backing down and not trudging through the rough spots. On the other hand, it might also refer to individuals who suffer from severe mental illnesses/imbalances that are completely separate from alcoholism, but which prevent the person from being able to even distinguish what reality may be.) A lack of official checks and balances designed to keep sponsors from abusing their position (though sponsors can be fired at any time) Claims that alcoholics are "doomed to an alcoholic death" unless they decide to "live on a spiritual basis" (each AA member being allowed to decide for himself what "spiritual basis" means) (BB, pg 44) and "Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant." (12x12, pg. 174).

 

[bentley]

Those guys drink the #### out coffee and smoke them some cigarettes. At least that's what a friend of mind who went at the suggestion of the county told me.

 

[shining path]

Those guys drink the #### out coffee and smoke them some cigarettes. At least that's what a friend of mind who went at the suggestion of the county told me.

Yep. I used to work at a coffee shop where they had an AA meeting every morning, and those bastards chain smoked and practically main-lined coffee.

 

[mr. furley]

hey Tat> how's your friend doing?

 

[Angus82]

Do they put a religious spin on things?

Yes, in very basic terms, you have to put it all in God's hands.

With all due respect, They talk of a higher power. What that is would be up to the individual. At first, it seems to be religious, but it is what you make of it. I say this as an agnostic. I have been to meetings and they are very helpful.

 

[Sweeper]

what's to know?you go, you listen to people talk, you decide whether or not you want to quit drinking.

I'm not all that sure but I think it has something to do with "accepting Jebsus or eternal hell". Oh yea, and not drinking anymore. Or drinking but only binge drinking.

 

[Sweeper]

for those who may not be aware of some of the criticisms of AA (there are many):

Specific criticisms of AA (some of whom go so far as to call AA a cult) include:There have been at least three randomized clinical trials that studied the effectiveness of AA. Specifically: Ditman et al. 1967; Brandsma et al. 1980; Walsh et al. 1991. Dr. Ditman found that participation in A.A. increased the alcoholics' rate of rearrest for public drunkenness.[1] Dr. Brandsma found that A.A. increased the rate of binge drinking. After several months of indoctrination with A.A. 12-Step dogma, the alcoholics in A.A. were doing five times as much binge drinking as a control group that got no treatment at all, and nine times as much binge drinking as another group that got Rational Behavior Therapy. Brandsma alleges that teaching people that they are alcoholics who are powerless over alcohol yields very bad results and that it becomes a self-fulfilling prediction -- they relapse and binge drink as if they really were powerless over alcohol.[2] And Dr. Walsh found that the so-called "free" A.A. program was actually very expensive -- it affected patients so that they required longer periods of costly hospitalization later on.[3] While AA acknowledged in the foreword to the second edition of the Big Book that "we surely have no monopoly", one of the stories following the main text of the book still claims that AA is "the only remedy" to alcohol abuse (BB, pg. 259. Emphasis added.), despite some current research which shows that high percentages of alcohol abusers recover without medical treatment (Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.). Another study suggests that AA may be "no better than the natural history of the disease" in keeping people alive and sober (The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery, George E. Vaillant, pgs. 283-286.) The claim that people who refuse to work the program thoroughly, or do but are not helped by it, are "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves" (BB, pg. 58.), implies that, by definition, the AA program itself is incapable of failure, provided that the alcoholic is properly motivated. This seems to deny the existence of honest, motivated individuals for whom the program doesn't work. ("[C]onstitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves", in this view, would have nothing to do with motivation and everything to do with being thorough through the steps, and when the truth gets to be too much, backing down and not trudging through the rough spots. On the other hand, it might also refer to individuals who suffer from severe mental illnesses/imbalances that are completely separate from alcoholism, but which prevent the person from being able to even distinguish what reality may be.) A lack of official checks and balances designed to keep sponsors from abusing their position (though sponsors can be fired at any time) Claims that alcoholics are "doomed to an alcoholic death" unless they decide to "live on a spiritual basis" (each AA member being allowed to decide for himself what "spiritual basis" means) (BB, pg 44) and "Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant." (12x12, pg. 174).

but there is something to be said for (my post) short and sweet.

 

[Tat]

hey Tat> how's your friend doing?

[/quote

to my knowledge, he hasn't had a drink since

 

[mr. furley]

hey Tat> how's your friend doing?

to my knowledge, he hasn't had a drink since

congrats to that guy. not an easy thing to do.

 

[snellman]

hey Tat> how's your friend doing?

to my knowledge, he hasn't had a drink since

Tell him congrats. :IBTL: The first year is the hardest with the first few months definately the hardest. I have been sober for 4 years. The AA meetings are a great support system. As far as the "Higher Power" it doesn't necessarily have to be God, but whatever you chose as your "Higher Power" IMO, you will have a much greater chance of sucess if you accept God as your higher power. Not saying you have to be religious, just believe that there is a God.

 

[Peyton Marino]

my dad has been in and out of meetings since he was about 30.

guy's currently like 2 months sober right now. just doesn't work for some people.

 

[Jiggyonthehut]

switch to beer

 

[rabidfireweasel]

Hi tat,I've known a few people who've gone through this and it was super helpful. I went to a meeting with him once it was cool. Anytime a bunch of people get together trying to support each other and accomplish a goal, they're often effective.I don't really know of any downsides to it.J

Few things have ever made me want to drink more than going to an AA meeting. People have had problem with substance addiction for as long as there have been people. Most, who have wanted to change their lives have done it without a 12 step program.My problem with AA is that there are a small amount of very vocal and present people who often act as if you have no chance of staying sober without AA's help.From the outside looking in (I went to less than 10 meetings) it seems to me that many addicts have replaced their drinking addiction with an AA addiction.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

For those of you who think AA is worthless, take a moment and consider that the world is filled with kids who are in the same spot right now that I was so many years ago. An hour spent with a roomful of strangers might seem like a waste to you, but an hour's reprieve from an alcoholic might be all that keeps the sanity of that alcoholics family intact.

I liked your post except for this part. AA can make things better for some people but it also can make things worse for some people. The main point is that it's not for everyone and there are other treatment options available. Too many people in this world think AA is the only way to quit drinking and that's just not even close to being accurate.

 

[Challenge Everything]

My dad has been in AA for close to 25 years. He decided to get sober when he was 45 and he has not had a drink since. My brother was 5 and I was 2 when my parents were divorced. Drinking was one of the issues with the divorce. My dad was never violent, and if he was it has never been mentioned to me by anyone, but the damage was done. The damage I am referring to was his absence from his home. My dad shot pool and was known around the city for his talent. When he gave up drinking he essentially gave up pool as well... pool = bar = betting on games for drinks.

Had the drinking not been a problem I do not know if my parents would still be married or not. As a kid I thought divorced parents was normal so growing up seeing a mom and dad with their kids I never thought those people were married. It was a concept that was not known to me. Life, for better or worse, would have been much different had my dad defeated his habit and stayed married to my mom. I am left wondering about that but cannot dwell on it.

My dad can tell stories from his 25 years and some are good, most are sad but growing up these stories kept alcohol out of my system. I did not have a drink until my 21st birthday and still do not drink often. I rarely go to bars and, unfortunately, that has inhibited some of my socialization but I can live without that aspect of life (the bar life).

For anyone reading this if any friends or family have a problem with alcohol the next step is to go to meetings with them. As a kid when I would go to meetings with my father I would feel proud of him when he was the speaker at a meeting. It is a difficult disorder to combat and should be taken seriously by all involved if alcohol ever becomes a problem.

 

[Challenge Everything]

My problem with AA is that there are a small amount of very vocal and present people who often act as if you have no chance of staying sober without AA's help.From the outside looking in (I went to less than 10 meetings) it seems to me that many addicts have replaced their drinking addiction with an AA addiction.

Is this a bad thing or a good thing?

 

[bentley]

My problem with AA is that there are a small amount of very vocal and present people who often act as if you have no chance of staying sober without AA's help.From the outside looking in (I went to less than 10 meetings) it seems to me that many addicts have replaced their drinking addiction with an AA addiction.

Is this a bad thing or a good thing?

Good, but not as good as if they were able to quit and not replace it with any addiction. I think this is what RFW is saying.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

My problem with AA is that there are a small amount of very vocal and present people who often act as if you have no chance of staying sober without AA's help.From the outside looking in (I went to less than 10 meetings) it seems to me that many addicts have replaced their drinking addiction with an AA addiction.

Is this a bad thing or a good thing?

It depends where that takes you. I wasn't interested in replacing one addiction with another, even is the second was more palatable.

 

[Challenge Everything]

My problem with AA is that there are a small amount of very vocal and present people who often act as if you have no chance of staying sober without AA's help.From the outside looking in (I went to less than 10 meetings) it seems to me that many addicts have replaced their drinking addiction with an AA addiction.

Is this a bad thing or a good thing?

Good, but not as good as if they were able to quit and not replace it with any addiction. I think this is what RFW is saying.

Turning a negative habit into a positive habit is never a bad thing. And, I dont think my dad is addicted to AA at all. It is way of life for the most part. It is part of his extended family. Instead of spending his time at the bar drinking soda he spends it with people that share a similar hobby as he does. I see no problems with AA at all. Sure, it is not for everybody, just like everything else, but I believe the positives outweigh the negatives by a long shot. The "studies" or articles that are in this thread are looking to turn something positive into a negative. AA does not turn people back into drinking... the people make that choice themselves.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

My problem with AA is that there are a small amount of very vocal and present people who often act as if you have no chance of staying sober without AA's help.From the outside looking in (I went to less than 10 meetings) it seems to me that many addicts have replaced their drinking addiction with an AA addiction.

Is this a bad thing or a good thing?

Good, but not as good as if they were able to quit and not replace it with any addiction. I think this is what RFW is saying.

Correct. In a simple sense, addictions of all sorts are often used to fill a void and deaden the dissatisfaction for a bit. At AA meetings, I found the air polluted by addiction-just slightly healthier addiction: coffee, cigarettes, and the ritual of going to the same meetings on the same nights. If this works for you, and improves your life- great. I was more interested in constructed a life where I didn't need to fill a void. I think in the long run, that is a better strategy for me.

 

[bentley]

My problem with AA is that there are a small amount of very vocal and present people who often act as if you have no chance of staying sober without AA's help.From the outside looking in (I went to less than 10 meetings) it seems to me that many addicts have replaced their drinking addiction with an AA addiction.

Is this a bad thing or a good thing?

Good, but not as good as if they were able to quit and not replace it with any addiction. I think this is what RFW is saying.

Correct. In a simple sense, addictions of all sorts are often used to fill a void and deaden the dissatisfaction for a bit. At AA meetings, I found the air polluted by addiction-just slightly healthier addiction: coffee, cigarettes, and the ritual of going to the same meetings on the same nights. If this works for you, and improves your life- great. I was more interested in constructed a life where I didn't need to fill a void. I think in the long run, that is a better strategy for me.

That's the impression I got from my involuntary attendance of a dozen meetings or so.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I see no problems with AA at all. Sure, it is not for everybody, just like everything else, but I believe the positives outweigh the negatives by a long shot. The "studies" or articles that are in this thread are looking to turn something positive into a negative. AA does not turn people back into drinking... the people make that choice themselves.

it's awesome that it worked for your dad and your family...but it doesn't work for everyone. the facts are out there. you can ignore them if it makes you feel better or if they don't mesh with your personal experience, but it starts to become a problem when everybody starts saying "look how great AA worked for this guy, if it doesn't work for you then you must be a lost cause", etc. There are MANY other treatment options out there right now that don't involve 12-step programs and are very effective at curbing addictions. In general, I think AA tends to work best for people who are in the worst shape....it's not a universtal treatment by any stretch.

 

[Limp Ditka]

hey Tat> how's your friend doing?

to my knowledge, he hasn't had a drink since

congrats to that guy. not an easy thing to do.

Think that's hard? Just wait until you're a week into "giving up" the innerwebs porn, Mr Happily Married Guy.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

Turning a negative habit into a positive habit is never a bad thing. And, I dont think my dad is addicted to AA at all. It is way of life for the most part. It is part of his extended family. Instead of spending his time at the bar drinking soda he spends it with people that share a similar hobby as he does. I see no problems with AA at all.

I think that each AA group is different, much like a congregationalist church. It's strengths and weaknesses are ini large part related to the group dynamic. It sounds like your dad found a good group.

 

[Challenge Everything]

I see no problems with AA at all. Sure, it is not for everybody, just like everything else, but I believe the positives outweigh the negatives by a long shot. The "studies" or articles that are in this thread are looking to turn something positive into a negative. AA does not turn people back into drinking... the people make that choice themselves.

it's awesome that it worked for your dad and your family...but it doesn't work for everyone. the facts are out there. you can ignore them if it makes you feel better or if they don't mesh with your personal experience, but it starts to become a problem when everybody starts saying "look how great AA worked for this guy, if it doesn't work for you then you must be a lost cause", etc. There are MANY other treatment options out there right now that don't involve 12-step programs and are very effective at curbing addictions. In general, I think AA tends to work best for people who are in the worst shape....it's not a universtal treatment by any stretch.

Never said it was a universal step or anything like that. I also said it was not for everybody but AA is a good first step into admitting that there is a problem. It is up to the person to change and I would encourage anybody to take that first step into admittance. Also, I would never tell anybody is a lost cause, but I would also not throw them to the wolves either by having them go it alone or anything like that.

 

[snellman]

My problem with AA is that there are a small amount of very vocal and present people who often act as if you have no chance of staying sober without AA's help.From the outside looking in (I went to less than 10 meetings) it seems to me that many addicts have replaced their drinking addiction with an AA addiction.

Is this a bad thing or a good thing?

Good, but not as good as if they were able to quit and not replace it with any addiction. I think this is what RFW is saying.

Correct. In a simple sense, addictions of all sorts are often used to fill a void and deaden the dissatisfaction for a bit. At AA meetings, I found the air polluted by addiction-just slightly healthier addiction: coffee, cigarettes, and the ritual of going to the same meetings on the same nights. If this works for you, and improves your life- great. I was more interested in constructed a life where I didn't need to fill a void. I think in the long run, that is a better strategy for me.

Most of us who are alchoholics have a very addictive personality in general. I was very lucky in the fact that my addiction never went beyond alchohal. But many people start with alchohal and move to marijuana, crack, meth or whatever the drug of choice is.The meetings give us a new habit and very good habit at that. It is a place to vent if you are having a rough day, a place to rejoice if you are having a good day. There are meetings going on at all hours of the day, all over the country, so whenever you feel the need or need a fix, you are able to go to a meeting.

You get a whole new group of friends and it doesn't matter what you look like, how much you make or what you do, you are accepted. It is that way no matter where in the country you go for a meeting. Until you have been through some of what we have been through, you will never understand.

I have not been to a meeting in 2 years. I found God again and also found the Church again and have chosen not to go to meetings. I do however, say the serenity prayer almost every day and I also know that if I ever have a rough time and feel the need to go out and have a drink, all I have to do is walk into that meeting and everything will be ok.

 

[johnnycakes]

AA isn't for people who need it. It's for those who want it.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I see no problems with AA at all. Sure, it is not for everybody, just like everything else, but I believe the positives outweigh the negatives by a long shot. The "studies" or articles that are in this thread are looking to turn something positive into a negative. AA does not turn people back into drinking... the people make that choice themselves.

it's awesome that it worked for your dad and your family...but it doesn't work for everyone. the facts are out there. you can ignore them if it makes you feel better or if they don't mesh with your personal experience, but it starts to become a problem when everybody starts saying "look how great AA worked for this guy, if it doesn't work for you then you must be a lost cause", etc. There are MANY other treatment options out there right now that don't involve 12-step programs and are very effective at curbing addictions. In general, I think AA tends to work best for people who are in the worst shape....it's not a universtal treatment by any stretch.

Never said it was a universal step or anything like that. I also said it was not for everybody but AA is a good first step into admitting that there is a problem. It is up to the person to change and I would encourage anybody to take that first step into admittance. Also, I would never tell anybody is a lost cause, but I would also not throw them to the wolves either by having them go it alone or anything like that.

the bolded part is what I was disagreeing with. if a program works for less than 10% of the people who try it, I think people should be aware of that...especially given that AA is generally viewed by most as the default and/or best treatment for alcoholism in this country. not really sure why you chose to put studies in quotes either.there was a study which showed that people in AA were 5 times more likely to binge drink than a control group. you don't think that's a potential negative for some people?

 

[snellman]

AA isn't for people who need it. It's for those who want it.

 

[Keys Myaths]

AA isn't for people who need it. It's for those who want it.

:( And couldn't be prouder of my father. 13 years now alcohol & drug free.

 

[Challenge Everything]

there was a study which showed that people in AA were 5 times more likely to binge drink than a control group. you don't think that's a potential negative for some people?

Who is in the control group? People who never had a problem, people who have been sober for X amount of years, young crowd in college? This can be flawed in many ways.Who was in the tested group? People who just began AA, college students, failing college students, people who have not had a drink in X amount of years? Who exactly?I think in this particular instance the "study" is flawed as there are many many variables that either were not accounted for or there are just to many to account for.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

there was a study which showed that people in AA were 5 times more likely to binge drink than a control group. you don't think that's a potential negative for some people?

Who is in the control group? People who never had a problem, people who have been sober for X amount of years, young crowd in college? This can be flawed in many ways.Who was in the tested group? People who just began AA, college students, failing college students, people who have not had a drink in X amount of years? Who exactly?I think in this particular instance the "study" is flawed as there are many many variables that either were not accounted for or there are just to many to account for.

okhave you read the study? if not, why do you assume it was flawed? and why do you continue to put quotes around the word study? do you think it is impossible to empirically study the impact of AA?

 

[The Z Machine]

If it helps you overcome your addiction and get clean, then all the best to you.

If you need to get clean and AA doesn't help, there are alternative means to do so. AA is probably a simple and cheap route, but other, more intensive substance abuse programs are successful.

I had a gf in HS that went to Al-Anon because her mom was a coke head and drunk. It helped with her problems. Too bad her mom didn't seek out treatment (and BTW, I hope that ##### rots in hell for what she did to her family).

 

[Shutterbug]

Hi tat,

I've known a few people who've gone through this and it was super helpful. I went to a meeting with him once it was cool. Anytime a bunch of people get together trying to support each other and accomplish a goal, they're often effective.

I don't really know of any downsides to it.

J

Giving up control, for one.

Wrong. If you have a drinking problem, you lack control. The alcohol controls you. This is the same with any habit. "Control is an illusion" quote borrowed from friend and it fits here.

 

[mr. furley]

hey Tat> how's your friend doing?

to my knowledge, he hasn't had a drink since

congrats to that guy. not an easy thing to do.

Think that's hard? Just wait until you're a week into "giving up" the innerwebs porn, Mr Happily Married Guy.

it won't be hard when i'm having secks twice a day for the rest of my life.

 

[johnnycakes]

AA isn't for people who need it. It's for those who want it.

Would you mind sharing your story about what happened to you?TIA

OK.... since you asked.... maybe it can help someone else.... Anniversary date is 11/14/1988. My first intro to AA was not in 1988, but around 1980 when I was living in Washington DC. Back in 1980 I was taking lots of drugs (you can pretty much name it and I took it if it existed back in 1980) and drinking pretty much from noontime 'til past midnight. By all rights, I should have died by 1980, but I got clean and sober down there and that lasted for a couple of years 'til I moved to Massachusetts and decided I'd be OK if I just didn't take drugs and drank, say, only on weekends. Well, to make a long story short, drinking weekends only lasted a little while, then the weekends started to begin on Thursdays, then having a few drinks after work seemed to be a pretty good idea... after a while, I was a noontime drinker, going out to the bars for a liquid lunch.

I had fun with booze for a while - especially in high school. But I was never, ever, a social drinker. I can vividly remember my first drunk and the feeling that I had found something magical - something that, in short, allowed me to feel functional among other people - not socially inept, as I was without the booze. If that sounds familiar to anyone reading this, watch out - it's a very common sentiment among alcoholics in recovery. I never drank socially. When I first heard someone refer to themselves as an "instant alcoholic" after their first drunk, I knew exactly what they were talking about. I drank for effect from the first drunk forward. I could never leave a partially full drink on the bar, and I never really saw any point in just having the proverbial one or two. By the time I was 20 years old, drinking had become a way of life; that's the best way to put it. It wasn't partying any more; it was just how I lived.

Life had become unmanageable long before I got sober in 1988 but I couldn't see it. One theory of denial I have - strictly my opinion based on my experience and observation - is that each alcoholic has one or two specific things that define an alcoholic to them - and so long as they avoid crossing that imaginary line in their own mind, everything else can be falling apart around them but they won't see it's the booze that's doing it to them. For example, one common notion of the alcoholic is the street person. It's not uncommon to hear recovering alcoholics say that they didn't think they were alcoholics because they thought of an alcoholic as a street person - a bum. And for these people, that's about what it takes for them to get sober... homeless in one way or another, living out of their car, etc... they then meet their own definition of an alcoholic. Now, I paid attention in my health education classes growing up, so I knew an alcoholic could be a white-collar executive - the kind who used to like to tie one on, say, around noontime - but not necessarily a street bum.

These days a growing number of younger people look to the DWI (or OUI depending on jurisdiction) as an indicator of alcoholism. I've heard some people in recovery say they would convince themselves they weren't an alcoholic because they never got arrested for driving under the influence. For me that wasn't an indicator because a lot of my drinking took place before the DWI became a high-quality bust. Back in the '70s, it was not unheard of for a cop to give an intoxicated driver a ride home when he got pulled over. The DWI was a nuisance bust back then for many cops - not sexy at all and not really regarded as a public service. I think MADD had a lot to do with changing that perception. When I was drinking I used to say I was a member of DAMM - Drunks Against Madd Mothers. I drank and drove every day for years and never got busted for driving under. There were countless mornings I'd get up and have to look outside to see if the car was there. And I was a blackout drinker for years, too, thinking that's just what happened when one got drunk and that was just completely normal. I did have a few accidents while under the influence - in one case the cop asked if I had been drinking and I denied it. He must have smelled it on me, as I had come straight from the bar, but the other party to the accident was a telephone pole that had jumped in front of me and no one was hurt (except me), so he let it go.

I know one recovering drunk whose system of denial told him he wasn't an alcoholic because he hadn't killed anyone while under the influence. He got sober in prison after he finally killed a guy in a blackout in a bar fight. He never remembered killing the guy; he woke up in jail the next day and had to ask why he was there. He did like 15 years at <a href="http://www.mass.gov/doc/facility/fcedjunc.html">MCI-Cedar Junction</a> the maximum-security prison in Massachusetts.

Me? I told myself I wasn't an alcoholic because (1) I didn't drink in the mornings, and (2) I didn't miss time at work because of my drinking - that is, I reported on time, put in a day's work, was generally functional at work (didn't get fired, etc.). All of that eventually fell apart for me at the end. I can remember going to watch the Boston Marathon one year with some friends and getting introduced to the morning drink when a local bar opened up around 8:30am and fired up their grills on an outdoor patio. In fairness, I never really made a habit of actually drinking beween, say, the hours of 4:00am and 11:30am. And I often did wait until the clock struck noon - and not a minute after - before resuming my drinking. But I often drank past midnight so that my body's alcohol level could carry me until that time. And my work performance did deteriorate - a lot - at the end. I thought nothing of telling off clients and I got away with that for some time. Finally I said the wrong thing to the wrong client sometime in October of 1988 and I got called into the boss's office, told flat-out, "you have a problem, and you'd better take care of it or I'm going to fire you." That was a BIG warning sign in my own mind - a clear violation of one of those things that told me I was not an alcoholic.

Then one night a guy at my regular bar - and the bar I frequented most often was a really nasty place. People wiped their feet on the way out. You wouldn't get shut off at this place as long as you could say, "Bud". They spewed drunks out onto the road with impunity - one Saturday afternoon I can remember a group of bikers I used to hang with all left to go somewhere as a group and not ten minutes later word came back one of them had an accident after he left and had been cut in half when he hit a pole. Didn't really bother me a bit - that's how emotionally numb I had become. Anyhow, one night this guy I was friends with asked me if I wanted to run with him to Central Falls (RI) to meet up with some Columbians and get some coke and, like a dummy, I said 'sure'. I woke up the next morning with strange people sleeping in my living room, needles in my bathroom.... and I knew the gig was up.

And at this time I was in a relationship with this married woman - a gal ("Elaine") who used to be a regular at that bar I used to hang out at. Her husband hung out at that bar and he knew about us and just didn't care. Just don't bang her in their bed was his only request. I was morally bankrupt at this point. I was miserable, absolutely not happy with my life ("sick and tired of being sick and tired"), and generally in deep #### - and remember, I've left out A LOT of crap that happened before this.... this is the soft-core stuff, the stuff I will share at an 'open' meeting.

Anyhow, Elaine and I pretty much bottomed out together. I tried to quit drinking on my own and, almost like that first time in my teens when I went a little too long without a cigarette and realized I had grown to need that cigarette, I came to realize I needed that drink and was unable to quit on my own. Meanwhile, life was completely unmanageable and I KNEW it was just a matter of time - not a matter of if, but when - until I screwed up again at work and got fired, at which point I would become completely unemployable - and I was already technically unemployable by this point but managed to hold onto the job because the boss had an investment in me and was a little hesitant to just cut me loose without giving me that one chance to straighten out.

Elaine actually took the lead in getting (us) back into AA. Our last weekend of drinking was November 12-13 (Saturday and Sunday), 1988, and was relatively uneventful. By this time she had given me a book she'd bought entitled, "Addictive Drinking" by Clark Vaughan - not AA literature, but it had enough in there to convince me I needed more help than just myself. She found a meeting in a nearby town - for that Monday night, and that was my re-introduction back into AA. It was November 14, 1988, and is the first full day of this current stretch of sobriety. I don't remember much of that meeting - just that it was really, really smoky and I was really, really desperate. I had to ask where to go to get to a meeting the next day - Tuesday - and someone turned me on to a "Big Book" meeting in a nearby town. I went to that and asked where to go Wednesday, etc... somewhere along the line, I picked up a meeting list book and charted out my meetings for the week.

I went to meetings, meetings, meetings.... chased meetings; for about the next seven years I don't think I missed a day. Somewhere in that first year Elaine hooked up with other dude and she moved about 50 miles away and I lost contact with her. I never went back to my old bar - nothing to go back to as far as I was concerned. I never said goodbye to anyone; I was one who just disappeared. That first year was probably the most miserable year in my life - possibly even more miserable than my last year drinking since I had all the "issues" going on but no medication to numb the feelings. What kept me coming? A few things...

First, I was an obstinate SOB and I hated God and I hated everyone I met. It was really fear that I was feeling but that fear manifested itself as hatred. And I knew everyone hated me, too. I knew I was going out drinking again sometime. I wanted to follow 'the program' (i.e., the 12-step program of AA) to the letter so when I went out drinking again, I could come back and tell everyone I did everything they said and it didn't work because I went out drinking, so they're all full of ####. I was an ego maniac with an inferiority complex. Two things about this. First, I didn't realize what a HUGE leap of faith that was - how much I was taking for granted - that I COULD come back. I knew I had another drunk in me but I really didn't understand that I may not have another recovery. Secondly, I did not understand that what was VERY important was not what was going on in my screwed up mind, but what I DID. I was DOING the right things - for all the wrong reasons - but what was important was I was, in fact, doing the right things.

A second factor was one guy ("Henry") in particular. I never got particularly close to Henry, but I'd briefly chat with him every Thursday night. He was about where I'm at now - 18 years continuous sobriety. He would look me in the eye and say, "it gets better" - and I could tell he really believed what he was telling me. That was huge. He wasn't saying you have to do this or that (like some do). He wasn't judgmental and didn't try to persuade me of anything. He'd just ask, "how's it going", and me, believing full well that no one really gave a crap, would respond with "just fine", and he'd look me in the eye and reply with a smile, "it gets better." That was the extent of our conversation for lots of nights. But I could tell he was happy; I could tell he knew how I felt, knew where I was at, and that he really believed "things" would get better. Henry, as much as anyone, gave me real hope. And the hell of it is, he may not even know how important his short little comments were to me early on. I haven't seen him in years and it's only within the last few years that I have understood his impact. I later learned what "fine" stood for (f'd up, insecure, neurotic, and emotional), and that 'things' didn't get better, but I did.

Anyhow, every year has gotten progressively better for me. I became very active with one group in particular and that group was very active with the prisons. My second sponsor was a prison rep with Central Service in Boston and I started to go on prison 'commitments' with this guy on a monthly basis. You can't go into a prison on one of these commitments if you have a record (and they check) - luckily I had never been busted, but I had done a lot of the same stuff that these guys had done who were in prison. You can't wear jeans or sneakers and no black-on-white color combos when you go into a prison. Also leave your jewelry and wallet behind. I've been to just about all the prisons here in Massachusetts speaking on these 'commitments'. Even been inside the women's prison MCI-Framingham) a few times. In the bigger prisons they'll typically meet in the cafeteria - there'll be a few hundred prisoners who come - and all but maybe two or three will be there ONLY to get out of their cells. That means you're standing up in front of a few hundred inmates and you know that of those few hundred, there's only two or three who really want to hear you and you don't know who they are.

I can tell you this, though... it's that kind of stuff that has helped to keep ME sober. And on a couple of occasions so far, I have been approached at meetings on the outside by strangers who remembered me speaking when I came to speak when they were incarcerated there. And they remembered me over a year later. It's like, a guy will come up to me and say....

Him: "Are you johnny?"

Me: yup....

Him: "Did you speak at MCI-Concord like... a year ago last April?"

Me: .... Uhhh... could be..... lemme think... yeah, I think I did... Tuesday evening meeting, right?

Him: "yeah, that was it..... I remember you... it was good to hear you when you came."

It's that kind of stuff that just blows me away when it happens.

I've met lots and lots of people along the way in the last 18 years. In addition to the prisons, I have spoken at detox units, mental hospitals, and lots of meetings in greater New England. I have also attended and spoken at meetings in Nova Scotia, Quebec, New Brunswick, as well as in certain cities around the U.S., including New York, Washington DC, New Orleans, Chicago, Nashville, Boca Raton, Charlottesville, Denver, Indianapolis, and probably a few others I forgot about.

In these meetings I have met all types.... doctors, lawyers, cops, priests, street bums, guys living out of their cars, one guy who was a tanker captain (Norweigan) who sobered up after he managed to run his super-tanker aground up in Alaska, airline captains (yup... they used to fly intoxicated), fashion models, religious fanatics, atheists, pretty much any walk of life you can think of, I've met them. Of these, a few have been truly remarkable.... one was my first sponsor in sobriety. Of all the people I've met, he is still probably one of the most 'spiritually fit' people I have ever met in my whole life (and that includes priests and ministers), and I can honestly say it was a privilege to know this guy. His name was Bob Reidy; I can use his full name because he's dead now. In those first few years of recovery, he spent many, many hours on the phone with me - often 'til late at night - trying to help me get my head out of my ###. He was also a member of my closed 12-step group and we would often talk in the parking lot for several hours after meetings. He didn't necessarily show me the same kind of hope that someone like Henry did... but he was absolutely instrumental in helping me in understanding the 12 steps, in understanding what I was feeling and how to react to those feelings, and generally how to live a sober life. I had very few truly "light" conversations with Bob Reidy.... even when we joked around, he managed to work in one of life's lessons into the mix. I owe him a debt of gratitude that can only be repaid by helping others the way he helped me.

So in the last 18 years, my life has changed tremendously. When I first got sober, I was really incapable of carrying on any meaningful relationship. I was angry and hated people. Toward the end of my first year of sobriety, that same boss made the mistake of asking if I liked my job, and I gave him an honest answer.... "No, I don't, and I'd really like to be somewhere else within a year." That's how my consulting career began. Since that time, I've gotten two master's degrees - both with highest honors. I've gotten married, we built the house we presently live in, and we have 3 kids. I learned to fly and I bought and still own a Piper Cherokee PA-28-180. Not a big plane, but I enjoy it, and it doesn't bust the bank to own it. Most importantly, I have found joy in my life - joy in my ability to give back to others, rather than being a taker. Henry used to say if I stuck with it, my life would be better than anything I could possibly imagine.... looking back where I was at the time, I am starting to see what he was talking about.

And I cannot take full credit for staying sober, either, so please... no congratulations. I can take credit for doing the legwork, yes. But it is very much the power of a group of drunks that has allowed me to recover and to learn how to enjoy living life sober. I kept showing up - that's what I can take credit for. Showing up is a prerequisite to recovery, but the actual process of recovery is very much a group effort.

It's still one day at a time, and today is just another day. When the thought of going out and having a drink crosses my mind, I know my life will change forever if I go down that path. I will lose my wife, my kids, my job... myself. Then I think to myself, "I'll have that drink tomorrow." It's OK to have that drink tomorrow. Just don't have it today... that's what one day at a time means to me.

 

[Shutterbug]

It's still one day at a time, and today is just another day. When the thought of going out and having a drink crosses my mind, I know my life will change forever if I go down that path. I will lose my wife, my kids, my job... myself. Then I think to myself, "I'll have that drink tomorrow." It's OK to have that drink tomorrow. Just don't have it today... that's what one day at a time means to me.

Absolutely amazing story. I strongly believe that everything happens for a reason, and your past has made you a wonderful person. Looks like you have everything in life that is truely important and the greatest of those being wisdom. I will not say congratulations, but I will say that your story makes me want to be a better person.We all have our demons. We all have a bridge we need to get over. I think everyone could learn from your story, not only those with alcohol and drug addictions. Thank you for sharing your story.

 

[Cavalier]

Do I think AA is a good idea? I try to not look at it like 90 percent fail and are lost. I think of it as 10 percent are saved that wouldn't have been saved otherwise.[/quote]

This my friend Mr. Gekko is where you are wrong. The same number of people quit whether they go to AA or not. Only you can make you quit. Doesn't anyone watch Penn and Teller BS?

 

[NFZ]

Wow Johnny, thats a quite a story with a great ending. Autobiography material.

 

[General Malaise]

It's still one day at a time, and today is just another day. When the thought of going out and having a drink crosses my mind, I know my life will change forever if I go down that path. I will lose my wife, my kids, my job... myself. Then I think to myself, "I'll have that drink tomorrow." It's OK to have that drink tomorrow. Just don't have it today... that's what one day at a time means to me.

Wow! That's some powerful writing there, JC. I know we're all technically anonymous strangers on an internet message board, but I think it takes great courage to open up like this. You've earned my respect to be certain.

 

[Shutterbug]

It's still one day at a time, and today is just another day. When the thought of going out and having a drink crosses my mind, I know my life will change forever if I go down that path. I will lose my wife, my kids, my job... myself. Then I think to myself, "I'll have that drink tomorrow." It's OK to have that drink tomorrow. Just don't have it today... that's what one day at a time means to me.

Wow! That's some powerful writing there, JC. I know we're all technically anonymous strangers on an internet message board, but I think it takes great courage to open up like this. You've earned my respect to be certain.

That makes two of us, at least.

 

[Limp Ditka]

hey Tat> how's your friend doing?

to my knowledge, he hasn't had a drink since

congrats to that guy. not an easy thing to do.

Think that's hard? Just wait until you're a week into "giving up" the innerwebs porn, Mr Happily Married Guy.

it won't be hard when i'm having secks twice a day for the rest of my life.

 

[regularguy]

Damn johnnycakes, I won't congratulate you as you wish, but I'll say I'm very impressed and happy for you. I know I'll read your posts a little more closely now. Lots of experience in there obviously.

 

[Simris]

Used to attend a very liberal church (kind of a unitarian deal) and they had a group called 'Rational Recovery'.

It focused on personal responsibility without all the 'higher power' stuff.

Having watched the Penn and Teller episode I would like to think the success rate for RR would be higher than AA.

Not sure if it is a local group or a national thing.

 

[Apes with Guns]

Hi tat,

I've known a few people who've gone through this and it was super helpful. I went to a meeting with him once it was cool. Anytime a bunch of people get together trying to support each other and accomplish a goal, they're often effective.

I don't really know of any downsides to it.

J

Giving up control, for one.

Wrong. If you have a drinking problem, you lack control. The alcohol controls you. This is the same with any habit. "Control is an illusion" quote borrowed from friend and it fits here.

Was this a test? Did I just flunk addiction?

 

[TommyGilmore]

Used to attend a very liberal church (kind of a unitarian deal) and they had a group called 'Rational Recovery'.

It focused on personal responsibility without all the 'higher power' stuff.

Having watched the Penn and Teller episode I would like to think the success rate for RR would be higher than AA.

Why would you assume that RR had a better success rate than AA? Seems to me that Penn & Teller's point was that all programs had low success rates.