Almost 50% of all black males are arrested before the age of 23 (1 Viewer)

[TheIronSheik]

As far as this complaint that we've already thrown a ton of money at the inner city schools and it hasn't accomplished anything- all I can say is, I have no idea in Hell where that money's going. When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.- they all look like ####. There's graffiti everywhere. The playgrounds are filthy. Teachers are terrified to teach there. When I then visit the nice public school my white daughters attended in Huntington Beach- there's no comparison. The money allocated cannot be equal- it's impossible.

Not saying this is the case every where, but Philadelphia public schools didn't have enough money to open this year. Yet when they went in to see where all of the money was, they found grand pianos that were never used, as well as laptops that were covered in dust and sitting in locked cages. The amount of negligent spending was laughable. And then they wondered why no one would give them more money to stay open.

Look, Iron Sheik, I'm sure there's a lot of waste, a lot of graft, and a whole lot of stupidity. Goes with the territory. But even with all that, nobody can look at some of these inner city schools and think that enough money is allocated for them.

I didn't say it was. I was saying that throwing more money at the problem is not the answer.

 

[whoknew]

As far as this complaint that we've already thrown a ton of money at the inner city schools and it hasn't accomplished anything- all I can say is, I have no idea in Hell where that money's going. When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.- they all look like ####. There's graffiti everywhere. The playgrounds are filthy. Teachers are terrified to teach there. When I then visit the nice public school my white daughters attended in Huntington Beach- there's no comparison. The money allocated cannot be equal- it's impossible

Really?

the money has gone to inflated administrations and bureaucracies. Go to the administrative offices of your inner city schools and count how many bmw, Mercedes and lexus' there are.

This is pretty commonly said too, but somehow I doubt it's the truth. While I haven't been inside the administrative offices of my local inner cities, I've driven by them, and haven't seen a lot of expensive cars there. We're not talking about very attractive buildings either- old buildings in a scary neighborhood where I wouldn't want to work.

For example, the school district office for Compton is located right across from Compton Towne Center, a large shopping center where I've been involved in a few leasing deals- and it's not a place you want to visit at night.

Over $12,000 a student per year goes to education. No matter how you slice it, government is to blame for the downfall of education. Governments have always been inefficient money hogs that should be responsible for the least amount of anything.

Is that in every district? Or an average?

 

[Jewell]

As far as this complaint that we've already thrown a ton of money at the inner city schools and it hasn't accomplished anything- all I can say is, I have no idea in Hell where that money's going. When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.- they all look like ####. There's graffiti everywhere. The playgrounds are filthy. Teachers are terrified to teach there. When I then visit the nice public school my white daughters attended in Huntington Beach- there's no comparison. The money allocated cannot be equal- it's impossible.

Tim, I've already posted a link that show the U.S. spends more per pupil than any nation in the world, a link that showed that Washington, DC and Prince George's County, MD are the city and county that spend the most per pupil with minimal return on investment, and I shared a link regarding the pathetic results for the greatest school investment in U.S. history in Kansas City. In many cases, areas with the worst schools spend moreper pupil because they get more federal funding.

Regarding the above points about the condition of those inner city schools, let me ask you this -- Have you ever seen a housing project? Millions are invested into housing projects and they are clean and relatively state of the art when they first open. Within a quick period of time they deteriorate not because of some mythic outside force, but because of how the residents treat them. The same holds true for the disparity in what you're seeing in those schools.

I've seen it with my own two eyes. I lived in a ghetto area where I was one of the few white people. There was a serious litter and graffiti problem. I would literally see people clean their cars in the parking lot and leave all the crappy contents right there in the parking lot despite garbage cans and dumpsters being within walking distance. The place perennially looked like a dump because that's what the residents their created. Don Lemon recently discussed the massive littering problem in black communities, and, of course, got criticized for his honest take.

I think that you're problem is what you admitted on page one -- you kind of live in a bubble.

timschochet, on 08 Jan 2014 - 10:09 PM, said: Coming from a nice, white, upper middle class neighborhood

 

[omahawildcat25]

As far as this complaint that we've already thrown a ton of money at the inner city schools and it hasn't accomplished anything- all I can say is, I have no idea in Hell where that money's going. When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.- they all look like ####. There's graffiti everywhere. The playgrounds are filthy. Teachers are terrified to teach there. When I then visit the nice public school my white daughters attended in Huntington Beach- there's no comparison. The money allocated cannot be equal- it's impossible

Really?

the money has gone to inflated administrations and bureaucracies. Go to the administrative offices of your inner city schools and count how many bmw, Mercedes and lexus' there are.

This is pretty commonly said too, but somehow I doubt it's the truth. While I haven't been inside the administrative offices of my local inner cities, I've driven by them, and haven't seen a lot of expensive cars there. We're not talking about very attractive buildings either- old buildings in a scary neighborhood where I wouldn't want to work.

For example, the school district office for Compton is located right across from Compton Towne Center, a large shopping center where I've been involved in a few leasing deals- and it's not a place you want to visit at night.

Over $12,000 a student per year goes to education. No matter how you slice it, government is to blame for the downfall of education. Governments have always been inefficient money hogs that should be responsible for the least amount of anything.

Is that in every district? Or an average?

Of course that is an average. If you want to ##### and complain about it not being divided equally you have only government to blame for that. People want to throw out the term crony capitalism, but their is more crony government.

 

[whoknew]

As far as this complaint that we've already thrown a ton of money at the inner city schools and it hasn't accomplished anything- all I can say is, I have no idea in Hell where that money's going. When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.- they all look like ####. There's graffiti everywhere. The playgrounds are filthy. Teachers are terrified to teach there. When I then visit the nice public school my white daughters attended in Huntington Beach- there's no comparison. The money allocated cannot be equal- it's impossible.

Tim, I've already posted a link that show the U.S. spends more per pupil than any nation in the world, a link that showed that Washington, DC and Prince George's County, MD are the city and county that spend the most per pupil with minimal return on investment, and I shared a link regarding the pathetic results for the greatest school investment in U.S. history in Kansas City. In many cases, areas with the worst schools spend moreper pupil because they get more federal funding.

Regarding the above points about the condition of those inner city schools, let me ask you this -- Have you ever seen a housing project? Millions are invested into housing projects and they are clean and relatively state of the art when they first open. Within a quick period of time they deteriorate not because of some mythic outside force, but because of how the residents treat them. The same holds true for the disparity in what you're seeing in those schools.

I've seen it with my own two eyes. I lived in a ghetto area where I was one of the few white people. There was a serious litter and graffiti problem. I would literally see people clean their cars in the parking lot and leave all the crappy contents right there in the parking lot despite garbage cans and dumpsters being within walking distance. The place perennially looked like a dump because that's what the residents their created. Don Lemon recently discussed the massive littering problem in black communities, and, of course, got criticized for his honest take.

I think that you're problem is what you admitted on page one -- you kind of live in a bubble.

timschochet, on 08 Jan 2014 - 10:09 PM, said: Coming from a nice, white, upper middle class neighborhood

Why do you think some school districts spend lots of money but get nothing in return?

And why do you think there is a littering/upkeep problem in the black communities?

 

[Chester Copperpot]

When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.

Between all the time you spend at the black barbershop and your time in Compton high schools, it's remarkable how you still find to post like you do.

 

[timschochet]

I'm also not suggesting that we should throw money at these schools- that won't solve any problems. The money has to be spent wisely and honestly: it's apparent that, at least in some cases, that has not been happening in the past.

But that being said, there's no denying that not enough money has been spent, at least IMO.

 

[timschochet]

When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.

Between all the time you spend at the black barbershop and your time in Compton high schools, it's remarkable how you still find to post like you do.

Because I don't do enough deals...

 

[timschochet]

As far as this complaint that we've already thrown a ton of money at the inner city schools and it hasn't accomplished anything- all I can say is, I have no idea in Hell where that money's going. When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.- they all look like ####. There's graffiti everywhere. The playgrounds are filthy. Teachers are terrified to teach there. When I then visit the nice public school my white daughters attended in Huntington Beach- there's no comparison. The money allocated cannot be equal- it's impossible.

Tim, I've already posted a link that show the U.S. spends more per pupil than any nation in the world, a link that showed that Washington, DC and Prince George's County, MD are the city and county that spend the most per pupil with minimal return on investment, and I shared a link regarding the pathetic results for the greatest school investment in U.S. history in Kansas City. In many cases, areas with the worst schools spend moreper pupil because they get more federal funding.

Regarding the above points about the condition of those inner city schools, let me ask you this -- Have you ever seen a housing project? Millions are invested into housing projects and they are clean and relatively state of the art when they first open. Within a quick period of time they deteriorate not because of some mythic outside force, but because of how the residents treat them. The same holds true for the disparity in what you're seeing in those schools.

I've seen it with my own two eyes. I lived in a ghetto area where I was one of the few white people. There was a serious litter and graffiti problem. I would literally see people clean their cars in the parking lot and leave all the crappy contents right there in the parking lot despite garbage cans and dumpsters being within walking distance. The place perennially looked like a dump because that's what the residents their created. Don Lemon recently discussed the massive littering problem in black communities, and, of course, got criticized for his honest take.

I think that you're problem is what you admitted on page one -- you kind of live in a bubble.

timschochet, on 08 Jan 2014 - 10:09 PM, said: Coming from a nice, white, upper middle class neighborhood

Of course I live in a bubble. I wouldn't feel safe living anywhere else, frankly.

But most bubbles are transparent- you can see what's outside. And sometimes I even visit...

 

[StrikeS2k]

As far as this complaint that we've already thrown a ton of money at the inner city schools and it hasn't accomplished anything- all I can say is, I have no idea in Hell where that money's going. When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.- they all look like ####. There's graffiti everywhere. The playgrounds are filthy. Teachers are terrified to teach there. When I then visit the nice public school my white daughters attended in Huntington Beach- there's no comparison. The money allocated cannot be equal- it's impossible.

Tim,

While I feel like just posting a bunch of laughing faces I'm not going to. I'm simply going to say that you're full of poop with this post. Why the hell are you visiting a bunch of inner city schools, in the worst areas of LA? You're not. Or do you mean you drive by and see graffiti so that must mean there's no money being spent there? Not to mention that you are the one who always says that anecdotal evidence is worthless. Right?

 

[whoknew]

As far as this complaint that we've already thrown a ton of money at the inner city schools and it hasn't accomplished anything- all I can say is, I have no idea in Hell where that money's going. When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.- they all look like ####. There's graffiti everywhere. The playgrounds are filthy. Teachers are terrified to teach there. When I then visit the nice public school my white daughters attended in Huntington Beach- there's no comparison. The money allocated cannot be equal- it's impossible

Really?

the money has gone to inflated administrations and bureaucracies. Go to the administrative offices of your inner city schools and count how many bmw, Mercedes and lexus' there are.

This is pretty commonly said too, but somehow I doubt it's the truth. While I haven't been inside the administrative offices of my local inner cities, I've driven by them, and haven't seen a lot of expensive cars there. We're not talking about very attractive buildings either- old buildings in a scary neighborhood where I wouldn't want to work.

For example, the school district office for Compton is located right across from Compton Towne Center, a large shopping center where I've been involved in a few leasing deals- and it's not a place you want to visit at night.

Over $12,000 a student per year goes to education. No matter how you slice it, government is to blame for the downfall of education. Governments have always been inefficient money hogs that should be responsible for the least amount of anything.

Is that in every district? Or an average?

Of course that is an average. If you want to ##### and complain about it not being divided equally you have only government to blame for that. People want to throw out the term crony capitalism, but their is more crony government.

I don't understand your point here.

 

[timschochet]

As far as this complaint that we've already thrown a ton of money at the inner city schools and it hasn't accomplished anything- all I can say is, I have no idea in Hell where that money's going. When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.- they all look like ####. There's graffiti everywhere. The playgrounds are filthy. Teachers are terrified to teach there. When I then visit the nice public school my white daughters attended in Huntington Beach- there's no comparison. The money allocated cannot be equal- it's impossible.

Tim,

While I feel like just posting a bunch of laughing faces I'm not going to. I'm simply going to say that you're full of poop with this post. Why the hell are you visiting a bunch of inner city schools, in the worst areas of LA? You're not. Or do you mean you drive by and see graffiti so that must mean there's no money being spent there? Not to mention that you are the one who always says that anecdotal evidence is worthless. Right?

You are correct to criticize me over the use of anecdotes- that was wrong on my part, especially since I relied on them to make the claim that the money allocated cannot be equal. That was wrong on my part, and that claim may very well be incorrect. What I should have written is from what I've seen, we do not spend enough on these schools. There is IMO no problem using anecdotes to reach THIS conclusion.

As far as my visiting some inner city schools, no it is not just drive-by. I've had to do so over the years for a number of reasons related to my work- mostly dealing with getting leases signed by wives of tenants who worked in the schools and were not free anytime other than their lunch period, and I didn't want to visit these people after hours as I do with other clients (since, frankly, it's not a part of town I care to be in after hours.)

 

[TobiasFunke]

As far as this complaint that we've already thrown a ton of money at the inner city schools and it hasn't accomplished anything- all I can say is, I have no idea in Hell where that money's going. When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.- they all look like ####. There's graffiti everywhere. The playgrounds are filthy. Teachers are terrified to teach there. When I then visit the nice public school my white daughters attended in Huntington Beach- there's no comparison. The money allocated cannot be equal- it's impossible.

Tim, I've already posted a link that show the U.S. spends more per pupil than any nation in the world, a link that showed that Washington, DC and Prince George's County, MD are the city and county that spend the most per pupil with minimal return on investment, and I shared a link regarding the pathetic results for the greatest school investment in U.S. history in Kansas City. In many cases, areas with the worst schools spend moreper pupil because they get more federal funding.

Regarding the above points about the condition of those inner city schools, let me ask you this -- Have you ever seen a housing project? Millions are invested into housing projects and they are clean and relatively state of the art when they first open. Within a quick period of time they deteriorate not because of some mythic outside force, but because of how the residents treat them. The same holds true for the disparity in what you're seeing in those schools.

I've seen it with my own two eyes. I lived in a ghetto area where I was one of the few white people. There was a serious litter and graffiti problem. I would literally see people clean their cars in the parking lot and leave all the crappy contents right there in the parking lot despite garbage cans and dumpsters being within walking distance. The place perennially looked like a dump because that's what the residents their created. Don Lemon recently discussed the massive littering problem in black communities, and, of course, got criticized for his honest take.

I think that you're problem is what you admitted on page one -- you kind of live in a bubble.

timschochet, on 08 Jan 2014 - 10:09 PM, said: Coming from a nice, white, upper middle class neighborhood

Sounds like some serious cherry-picking. Why not look at all the info? Here's what a google search turned up:

• Of the 100 largest school systems by enrollment in the U.S., New York City School District in New York ($19,770) had the highest current spending per student in 2011, followed by Boston Public Schools in Massachusetts ($19,181), Baltimore City Public Schools in Maryland ($15,483), Montgomery County Public Schools in Maryland ($15,421), and Howard County Schools in Maryland ($15,139).
• States spending the least per student were Mississippi ($7,928), Arizona ($7,666), Oklahoma ($7,587), Idaho ($6,824) and Utah ($6,212).
• Eight out of nine states in the Northeast region of the U.S. were ranked among the top 15 in current spending per student in 2011. The remaining state in the northeast, Maine, was ranked 17th. Out of the 16 states with the lowest per student spending, 15 were in the South and West regions. The remaining state, South Dakota, was in the Midwest.

I don't need to look at comparative educational results any way you want to slice them (graduation rates, literacy, test scores, whatever) to know that there's gonna be a significant correlation between the high spending-per-pupil states and results. But if you want, feel free to pick any measure you choose and compare the northeast to the south, west and South Dakota and get back to me.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Let's work off of some actual numbers here:

District Spending

The Compton Unified School District spends $10,596 per pupil in current expenditures. The district spends 58% on instruction, 38% on support services, and 4% on other elementary and secondary expenditures.

District Student-Teacher Ratio

The Compton Unified School District has 19 students for every full-time equivalent teacher, with the CA state average being 24 students per full-time equivalent teacher.

The average per student spending in CA is $8,482. So Compton actually spends about $2,000 MORE per student than the average CA public school.

They also average about 5 students less per full time teacher than the average public schools.

And yet their graduation rates, attendance rates, dropout rates and test scores are all much worse than the CA average.

But yeah, not enough money must be the problem.

 

[StrikeS2k]

As far as this complaint that we've already thrown a ton of money at the inner city schools and it hasn't accomplished anything- all I can say is, I have no idea in Hell where that money's going. When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.- they all look like ####. There's graffiti everywhere. The playgrounds are filthy. Teachers are terrified to teach there. When I then visit the nice public school my white daughters attended in Huntington Beach- there's no comparison. The money allocated cannot be equal- it's impossible.

Tim,

While I feel like just posting a bunch of laughing faces I'm not going to. I'm simply going to say that you're full of poop with this post. Why the hell are you visiting a bunch of inner city schools, in the worst areas of LA? You're not. Or do you mean you drive by and see graffiti so that must mean there's no money being spent there? Not to mention that you are the one who always says that anecdotal evidence is worthless. Right?

You are correct to criticize me over the use of anecdotes- that was wrong on my part, especially since I relied on them to make the claim that the money allocated cannot be equal. That was wrong on my part, and that claim may very well be incorrect. What I should have written is from what I've seen, we do not spend enough on these schools. There is IMO no problem using anecdotes to reach THIS conclusion.

As far as my visiting some inner city schools, no it is not just drive-by. I've had to do so over the years for a number of reasons related to my work- mostly dealing with getting leases signed by wives of tenants who worked in the schools and were not free anytime other than their lunch period, and I didn't want to visit these people after hours as I do with other clients (since, frankly, it's not a part of town I care to be in after hours.)

Over the years? How many years? And if you're not there evaluating and auditing their budget and use of funds how do you know they don't have enough money? Maybe they just don't spend it properly. That's what people have been trying to tell you but apparently you visiting to get docs signed that have nothing to do with the school has given you some superior insight in to the budgeting that goes on at those schools.

Come on man.

 

[whoknew]

Let's work off of some actual numbers here:

District Spending

The Compton Unified School District spends $10,596 per pupil in current expenditures. The district spends 58% on instruction, 38% on support services, and 4% on other elementary and secondary expenditures.

District Student-Teacher Ratio

The Compton Unified School District has 19 students for every full-time equivalent teacher, with the CA state average being 24 students per full-time equivalent teacher.

The average per student spending in CA is $8,482. So Compton actually spends about $2,000 MORE per student than the average CA public school.

They also average about 5 students less per full time teacher than the average public schools.

And yet their graduation rates, attendance rates, dropout rates and test scores are all much worse than the CA average.

But yeah, not enough money must be the problem.

So what is the problem?

 

[jonessed]

As far as this complaint that we've already thrown a ton of money at the inner city schools and it hasn't accomplished anything- all I can say is, I have no idea in Hell where that money's going. When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.- they all look like ####. There's graffiti everywhere. The playgrounds are filthy. Teachers are terrified to teach there. When I then visit the nice public school my white daughters attended in Huntington Beach- there's no comparison. The money allocated cannot be equal- it's impossible.

Not saying this is the case every where, but Philadelphia public schools didn't have enough money to open this year. Yet when they went in to see where all of the money was, they found grand pianos that were never used, as well as laptops that were covered in dust and sitting in locked cages. The amount of negligent spending was laughable. And then they wondered why no one would give them more money to stay open.

Look, Iron Sheik, I'm sure there's a lot of waste, a lot of graft, and a whole lot of stupidity. Goes with the territory. But even with all that, nobody can look at some of these inner city schools and think that enough money is allocated for them.

I didn't say it was. I was saying that throwing more money at the problem is not the answer.

In California, those inner city schools get significantly more many than the ones in the suburbs.

It still doesn't make them better schools.

 

[jonessed]

Let's work off of some actual numbers here:

District Spending

The Compton Unified School District spends $10,596 per pupil in current expenditures. The district spends 58% on instruction, 38% on support services, and 4% on other elementary and secondary expenditures.

District Student-Teacher Ratio

The Compton Unified School District has 19 students for every full-time equivalent teacher, with the CA state average being 24 students per full-time equivalent teacher.

The average per student spending in CA is $8,482. So Compton actually spends about $2,000 MORE per student than the average CA public school.They also average about 5 students less per full time teacher than the average public schools.

And yet their graduation rates, attendance rates, dropout rates and test scores are all much worse than the CA average.

But yeah, not enough money must be the problem.

So what is the problem?

Corruption and parents that don't care. Those actually go hand-in-hand.

 

[whoknew]

Let's work off of some actual numbers here:

District Spending

The Compton Unified School District spends $10,596 per pupil in current expenditures. The district spends 58% on instruction, 38% on support services, and 4% on other elementary and secondary expenditures.

District Student-Teacher Ratio

The Compton Unified School District has 19 students for every full-time equivalent teacher, with the CA state average being 24 students per full-time equivalent teacher.

The average per student spending in CA is $8,482. So Compton actually spends about $2,000 MORE per student than the average CA public school.They also average about 5 students less per full time teacher than the average public schools.

And yet their graduation rates, attendance rates, dropout rates and test scores are all much worse than the CA average.

But yeah, not enough money must be the problem.

So what is the problem?

Corruption and parents that don't care. Those actually go hand-in-hand.

1) How do we fix corruption?

2) Why don't the parents care?

 

[timschochet]

Let's work off of some actual numbers here:

District Spending

The Compton Unified School District spends $10,596 per pupil in current expenditures. The district spends 58% on instruction, 38% on support services, and 4% on other elementary and secondary expenditures.

District Student-Teacher Ratio

The Compton Unified School District has 19 students for every full-time equivalent teacher, with the CA state average being 24 students per full-time equivalent teacher.

The average per student spending in CA is $8,482. So Compton actually spends about $2,000 MORE per student than the average CA public school.

They also average about 5 students less per full time teacher than the average public schools.

And yet their graduation rates, attendance rates, dropout rates and test scores are all much worse than the CA average.

But yeah, not enough money must be the problem.

That's depressing. Obviously the money isn't being spent wisely. But I still think we have to spend more. I know that's frustrating to hear.

 

[RCon]

As far as this complaint that we've already thrown a ton of money at the inner city schools and it hasn't accomplished anything- all I can say is, I have no idea in Hell where that money's going. When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.- they all look like ####. There's graffiti everywhere. The playgrounds are filthy. Teachers are terrified to teach there. When I then visit the nice public school my white daughters attended in Huntington Beach- there's no comparison. The money allocated cannot be equal- it's impossible

Really?

the money has gone to inflated administrations and bureaucracies. Go to the administrative offices of your inner city schools and count how many bmw, Mercedes and lexus' there are.

This is pretty commonly said too, but somehow I doubt it's the truth. While I haven't been inside the administrative offices of my local inner cities, I've driven by them, and haven't seen a lot of expensive cars there. We're not talking about very attractive buildings either- old buildings in a scary neighborhood where I wouldn't want to work.

For example, the school district office for Compton is located right across from Compton Towne Center, a large shopping center where I've been involved in a few leasing deals- and it's not a place you want to visit at night.

An awful lot of money is spent on administration now. The number of administrative positions per student has increased wildly over the past few decades.

 

[StrikeS2k]

That's depressing. Obviously the money isn't being spent wisely. But I still think we have to spend more. I know that's frustrating to hear.

A true Libertarian.

 

[jonessed]

Let's work off of some actual numbers here:

District Spending

The Compton Unified School District spends $10,596 per pupil in current expenditures. The district spends 58% on instruction, 38% on support services, and 4% on other elementary and secondary expenditures.

District Student-Teacher Ratio

The Compton Unified School District has 19 students for every full-time equivalent teacher, with the CA state average being 24 students per full-time equivalent teacher.

The average per student spending in CA is $8,482. So Compton actually spends about $2,000 MORE per student than the average CA public school.They also average about 5 students less per full time teacher than the average public schools.

And yet their graduation rates, attendance rates, dropout rates and test scores are all much worse than the CA average.

But yeah, not enough money must be the problem.

So what is the problem?

Corruption and parents that don't care. Those actually go hand-in-hand.

1) How do we fix corruption?

2) Why don't the parents care?

I don't know. If you solve the second first comes much easier.

 

[RCon]

Let's work off of some actual numbers here:

District Spending

The Compton Unified School District spends $10,596 per pupil in current expenditures. The district spends 58% on instruction, 38% on support services, and 4% on other elementary and secondary expenditures.

District Student-Teacher Ratio

The Compton Unified School District has 19 students for every full-time equivalent teacher, with the CA state average being 24 students per full-time equivalent teacher.

The average per student spending in CA is $8,482. So Compton actually spends about $2,000 MORE per student than the average CA public school.

They also average about 5 students less per full time teacher than the average public schools.

And yet their graduation rates, attendance rates, dropout rates and test scores are all much worse than the CA average.

But yeah, not enough money must be the problem.

That's depressing. Obviously the money isn't being spent wisely. But I still think we have to spend more. I know that's frustrating to hear.

If current money isn't being spent wisely, what leads you to the conclusion that more money would be spent wisely?

 

[Jewell]

Let's work off of some actual numbers here:

District Spending

The Compton Unified School District spends $10,596 per pupil in current expenditures. The district spends 58% on instruction, 38% on support services, and 4% on other elementary and secondary expenditures.

District Student-Teacher Ratio

The Compton Unified School District has 19 students for every full-time equivalent teacher, with the CA state average being 24 students per full-time equivalent teacher.

The average per student spending in CA is $8,482. So Compton actually spends about $2,000 MORE per student than the average CA public school.

They also average about 5 students less per full time teacher than the average public schools.

And yet their graduation rates, attendance rates, dropout rates and test scores are all much worse than the CA average.

But yeah, not enough money must be the problem.

That's depressing. Obviously the money isn't being spent wisely. But I still think we have to spend more. I know that's frustrating to hear.

Alright, now I'm convinced that you're putting us on.

If less money is being put toward the same programs in other schools and those schools are showing far better results, then it should be obvious that it's neither the amount being spent nor how the money is being spent that is rendering worse results in certain schools.

Do you put any blame on the students themsleves for their schools' sub-standard academic performance and negative cnditions?

 

[GroveDiesel]

Let's work off of some actual numbers here:

District Spending

The Compton Unified School District spends $10,596 per pupil in current expenditures. The district spends 58% on instruction, 38% on support services, and 4% on other elementary and secondary expenditures.

District Student-Teacher Ratio

The Compton Unified School District has 19 students for every full-time equivalent teacher, with the CA state average being 24 students per full-time equivalent teacher.

The average per student spending in CA is $8,482. So Compton actually spends about $2,000 MORE per student than the average CA public school.They also average about 5 students less per full time teacher than the average public schools.

And yet their graduation rates, attendance rates, dropout rates and test scores are all much worse than the CA average.

But yeah, not enough money must be the problem.

That's depressing. Obviously the money isn't being spent wisely. But I still think we have to spend more. I know that's frustrating to hear.

Yeah. It is frustrating because it completely ignores the true problems and actually makes things worse by ignoring them.

The bottom line is that two parent families are the greatest predictor for future success and staying out of prison. Barring that, an active father or father figure is a close second. The impact of those things vastly outweighs just throwing money at the problem.

Just spending more money is like the rich parents with an out of control kid who think that buying their kid whatever they want will somehow fix the problem.

Black Box nailed another problem and that is time-preference. Convincing people to take a longer view that requires hard work and sacrifice now is extremely difficult when they don't already have it. But being able to do that has huge payoffs. But that doesn't jive with what we preach as a culture.

Money is only a bandaid destined to fail. The only real solution is a genuine culture change. Absent that, things simply won't get much better no matter how much you spend.

 

[whoknew]

Do you put any blame on the students themsleves for their schools' sub-standard academic performance and negative cnditions?

Lets say they are getting plenty of money and its 100% the students fault. How do we change that?

 

[whoknew]

Let's work off of some actual numbers here:

District Spending

The Compton Unified School District spends $10,596 per pupil in current expenditures. The district spends 58% on instruction, 38% on support services, and 4% on other elementary and secondary expenditures.

District Student-Teacher Ratio

The Compton Unified School District has 19 students for every full-time equivalent teacher, with the CA state average being 24 students per full-time equivalent teacher.

The average per student spending in CA is $8,482. So Compton actually spends about $2,000 MORE per student than the average CA public school.They also average about 5 students less per full time teacher than the average public schools.

And yet their graduation rates, attendance rates, dropout rates and test scores are all much worse than the CA average.

But yeah, not enough money must be the problem.

So what is the problem?

Corruption and parents that don't care. Those actually go hand-in-hand.

1) How do we fix corruption?

2) Why don't the parents care?

I don't know. If you solve the second first comes much easier.

I don't know either.

That's depressing.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

Just an awful circle. Kids grow up in bad neighborhoods, bad schools and bad communities = a very bad cycle of the same year in and year out. Parents that don't value education pass on to their children those same values. Single family homes, living off the government teet = more generations of living off the government. Why cant people just call it what it is. Bad parents/bad communities/bad schools/bad kids. ???

 

[whoknew]

Just an awful circle. Kids grow up in bad neighborhoods, bad schools and bad communities = a very bad cycle of the same year in and year out. Parents that don't value education pass on to their children those same values. Single family homes, living off the government teet = more generations of living off the government. Why cant people just call it what it is. Bad parents/bad communities/bad schools/bad kids. ???

For two reasons:

1) That is dismissive and makes it easy for someone to just say, "#### it. They are just bad people. Who gives a #### about them?" And that's not good enough. It hurts everyone.

2) There's a reason, for example, "parents don't value education." What is that reason?

 

[Jewell]

As far as this complaint that we've already thrown a ton of money at the inner city schools and it hasn't accomplished anything- all I can say is, I have no idea in Hell where that money's going. When I visit local inner city schools in Compton, South Central, East L.A.- they all look like ####. There's graffiti everywhere. The playgrounds are filthy. Teachers are terrified to teach there. When I then visit the nice public school my white daughters attended in Huntington Beach- there's no comparison. The money allocated cannot be equal- it's impossible.

Tim, I've already posted a link that show the U.S. spends more per pupil than any nation in the world, a link that showed that Washington, DC and Prince George's County, MD are the city and county that spend the most per pupil with minimal return on investment, and I shared a link regarding the pathetic results for the greatest school investment in U.S. history in Kansas City. In many cases, areas with the worst schools spend moreper pupil because they get more federal funding.

Regarding the above points about the condition of those inner city schools, let me ask you this -- Have you ever seen a housing project? Millions are invested into housing projects and they are clean and relatively state of the art when they first open. Within a quick period of time they deteriorate not because of some mythic outside force, but because of how the residents treat them. The same holds true for the disparity in what you're seeing in those schools.

I've seen it with my own two eyes. I lived in a ghetto area where I was one of the few white people. There was a serious litter and graffiti problem. I would literally see people clean their cars in the parking lot and leave all the crappy contents right there in the parking lot despite garbage cans and dumpsters being within walking distance. The place perennially looked like a dump because that's what the residents their created. Don Lemon recently discussed the massive littering problem in black communities, and, of course, got criticized for his honest take.

I think that you're problem is what you admitted on page one -- you kind of live in a bubble.

timschochet, on 08 Jan 2014 - 10:09 PM, said: Coming from a nice, white, upper middle class neighborhood

Sounds like some serious cherry-picking. Why not look at all the info? Here's what a google search turned up:

• Of the 100 largest school systems by enrollment in the U.S., New York City School District in New York ($19,770) had the highest current spending per student in 2011, followed by Boston Public Schools in Massachusetts ($19,181), Baltimore City Public Schools in Maryland ($15,483), Montgomery County Public Schools in Maryland ($15,421), and Howard County Schools in Maryland ($15,139).
• States spending the least per student were Mississippi ($7,928), Arizona ($7,666), Oklahoma ($7,587), Idaho ($6,824) and Utah ($6,212).
• Eight out of nine states in the Northeast region of the U.S. were ranked among the top 15 in current spending per student in 2011. The remaining state in the northeast, Maine, was ranked 17th. Out of the 16 states with the lowest per student spending, 15 were in the South and West regions. The remaining state, South Dakota, was in the Midwest.

I don't need to look at comparative educational results any way you want to slice them (graduation rates, literacy, test scores, whatever) to know that there's gonna be a significant correlation between the high spending-per-pupil states and results. But if you want, feel free to pick any measure you choose and compare the northeast to the south, west and South Dakota and get back to me.

Well, first I'm not sure why you're accusing me of cherry-picking, bet here's your info:

D.C. Leads Nation as U.S. Per Pupil Tops $10,600, Census Bureau Reports

The nation's elementary-secondary public school systems spent an average of $10,615 per pupil in fiscal year 2010, up 1.1 percent from the previous year, according to statistics released today by the U.S. Census Bureau. District of Columbia public schools spent $18,667 per student in 2010, which is the most of any state or state equivalent. States that spent the most per pupil were New York ($18,618), New Jersey ($16,841), Alaska ($15,783), Vermont ($15,274) and Wyoming ($15,169). (See table 11. Excel | PDF).

These statistics come from Public Education Finances: 2010, a Census Bureau report that provides tables and figures on revenues, expenditures, debt and assets (cash and security holdings) of the nation's elementary and secondary public school systems for the 2010 fiscal year.

LINK

To make matters worse, the Huffington Post contends that DC fudged their figures to make DC schools' failing performance not look as bad considering that they spent considerably more than any other school system.

Atlanta and Cleveland (see Table 1) are of similar size, have similar numbers of students from low-income families, and perform about the same on the NAEP test. However, both of those cities spend significantly smaller amounts of money to educate their students. How is this happening?

So if school performance directly relates to school spending, how do explain Atlanta and Cleveland having similar results to DC despite DC spending much more per pupil?

Also, look at the school districts that you listed spend the most per pupil (It looks like we pulled up different years, but that doesn't change the point nor the result). On your list New York City and Baltimore are among the districts that spend the most. Would you say that New York City public schools and Baltimore public schools render better test results than schools that spend far less per pupil?

 

[Jewell]

Why do you think some school districts spend lots of money but get nothing in return?

And why do you think there is a littering/upkeep problem in the black communities?

Good questions:1. Too many students in those school districts either don't care enough or are not capable enough to render better results.

2. I don't know how it started, but it's cyclical in some areas. I'm sure part of it's a sense of "the place looks like crap already anyway, so what's a little more crap."

 

[GroveDiesel]

Just an awful circle. Kids grow up in bad neighborhoods, bad schools and bad communities = a very bad cycle of the same year in and year out. Parents that don't value education pass on to their children those same values. Single family homes, living off the government teet = more generations of living off the government. Why cant people just call it what it is. Bad parents/bad communities/bad schools/bad kids. ???

For two reasons:

1) That is dismissive and makes it easy for someone to just say, "#### it. They are just bad people. Who gives a #### about them?" And that's not good enough. It hurts everyone.

2) There's a reason, for example, "parents don't value education." What is that reason?

I think the answer to #2 goes back to what BB was saying about time preference. Education is very labor intensive and time consuming with a payoff that literally take decades. For people who are poor, making the choice to invest in education causes a lot more pain than it does families with a lot of resources. When a single mom's priorities are working hard to put food on the table and keeping their kid off the street for the good ones and getting high and sleeping around for the bad ones, the long term investment of education is a tougher sell. There are things that can be done to change that mindset and improve things, but it's tough and takes a huge change in thinking for the most part.

And IMO, that starts with readily admitting the true problems as a society and then convincing those that need a mindset change that it will help them more than just giving them money will.

 

[lod01]

1) Remove children from single-parent homes by force.

2) Force sterilization for the poor.

3) Prison/Labor camps in the desert for convicts.

4) Broaden the death penalty to cull more undesirables.

5) State-run re-education camps for those under 12.

Excellent list.

 

[parasaurolophus]

These numbers are meaningless.

 

[DrJ]

Tim, how about you take in an understudy on the condition that they take in 2 understudies upon successful transfer of your knowledge. It could be like the MLM of education, and you'd be at the top.

 

[Thorn]

45% of FBGs have been arrested before the age of 23, as of current numbers.