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Alternative idea for waivers - serpentine (1 Viewer)

FlapJacks

Footballguy
I've always thought this was kind of unfair:

player A is ahead of player B on the waiver list

they each claim a player

Player A gets the better player/more coveted player due to priority

following week player A still has a higher priority than player B

alternative - run waiver priority like a serpentine draft

1) run 1st round of waivers putting everybody who claims a player as the bottom

2) for everybody who got a player REVERSE the order

rinse and repeat for subsequent claims

seems like a small tweak

Thoughts?

 

Khy

Footballguy
I've always thought this was kind of unfair:

player A is ahead of player B on the waiver list

they each claim a player

Player A gets the better player/more coveted player due to priority

following week player A still has a higher priority than player B

alternative - run waiver priority like a serpentine draft

1) run 1st round of waivers putting everybody who claims a player as the bottom

2) for everybody who got a player REVERSE the order

rinse and repeat for subsequent claims

seems like a small tweak

Thoughts?
This is how non-auction waivers have worked for years... you take the opposite of the draft order. So whoever drafted 1.12 gets the #1 priority and whoever drafted 1.01 gets the #12 priority. And if you make a move it resets you to the back and moves everyone else up.

 

FlapJacks

Footballguy
I've always thought this was kind of unfair:

player A is ahead of player B on the waiver list

they each claim a player

Player A gets the better player/more coveted player due to priority

following week player A still has a higher priority than player B

alternative - run waiver priority like a serpentine draft

1) run 1st round of waivers putting everybody who claims a player as the bottom

2) for everybody who got a player REVERSE the order

rinse and repeat for subsequent claims

seems like a small tweak

Thoughts?
This is how non-auction waivers have worked for years... you take the opposite of the draft order. So whoever drafted 1.12 gets the #1 priority and whoever drafted 1.01 gets the #12 priority. And if you make a move it resets you to the back and moves everyone else up.
and if #12 and #11 bothe make a move?

 

pollardsvision

Footballguy
Free-agent auction pretty much solves everything.

No idea why every league hasn't converted to auction drafting and free-agency by now.

 

Khy

Footballguy
I've always thought this was kind of unfair:

player A is ahead of player B on the waiver list

they each claim a player

Player A gets the better player/more coveted player due to priority

following week player A still has a higher priority than player B

alternative - run waiver priority like a serpentine draft

1) run 1st round of waivers putting everybody who claims a player as the bottom

2) for everybody who got a player REVERSE the order

rinse and repeat for subsequent claims

seems like a small tweak

Thoughts?
This is how non-auction waivers have worked for years... you take the opposite of the draft order. So whoever drafted 1.12 gets the #1 priority and whoever drafted 1.01 gets the #12 priority. And if you make a move it resets you to the back and moves everyone else up.
and if #12 and #11 bothe make a move?
If you have the 12th Waiver slot and make a waiver move it's simple... you don't move. You just stay at 12 and 11 would stay at 11 as all Waivers are processed at the exact same time. It's still a horrible system and auction is DEFINITELY the way to go. But serpentine waivers like you mention are the default waiver processes for most fantasy leagues.

 

steveski

Footballguy
Rolling Waivers solves this issue. If you claim and get a guy, you move to the back of the list.

 

FlapJacks

Footballguy
I dont' think you guys are getting it

order

A

B

C

D

A claims Julius Thomas

B claims Dallas Clark

new order

C

D

A

B

A got a better player and is still ahead of B

Proposed new order

C

D

B

A

next round of waivers whould be in reverse order like a draft

 

GregR

Footballguy
Rolling Waivers solves this issue. If you claim and get a guy, you move to the back of the list.
I prefer this for non-auction waivers. Especially if you have FCFS after that does not change priority, it adds a measure of strategy to when you spend waiver priority.

 

steveski

Footballguy
I dont' think you guys are getting it

order

A

B

C

D

A claims Julius Thomas

B claims Dallas Clark

new order

C

D

A

B

A got a better player and is still ahead of B

Proposed new order

C

D

B

A

next round of waivers whould be in reverse order like a draft
There's no problem with that. If Team B just wanted Thomas then they wouldn't win the claim and they'd be at the top of the list. They decided to put in a claim for the 2nd guy so they got their claim and move to the back. And if you're really going to get that picky and say that this isn't fair enough then I think it's time to just switch to FAAB.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

FlapJacks

Footballguy
I dont' think you guys are getting it

order

A

B

C

D

A claims Julius Thomas

B claims Dallas Clark

new order

C

D

A

B

A got a better player and is still ahead of B

Proposed new order

C

D

B

A

next round of waivers whould be in reverse order like a draft
There's no problem with that. If Team B just wanted Thomas then they wouldn't win the claim and they'd be at the top of the list. They decided to put in a claim for the 2nd guy so they got their claim and move to the back. And if you're really going to get that picky and say that this isn't fair enough then I think it's time to just switch to FAAB.
but it's kind of unfair that Team A risks less to gain more

 

Long Ball Larry

Footballguy
I dont' think you guys are getting it

order

A

B

C

D

A claims Julius Thomas

B claims Dallas Clark

new order

C

D

A

B

A got a better player and is still ahead of B

Proposed new order

C

D

B

A

next round of waivers whould be in reverse order like a draft
Are you sure that it works the way you are saying it does? I feel like maybe it does work in the way that you are proposing on my ESPN leagues, but I'd have to really look closely.

 

everydayj

Footballguy
Free-agent auction pretty much solves everything.

No idea why every league hasn't converted to auction drafting and free-agency by now.
In AJ Mass' chat for ESPN yesterday, he was arguing that non-auction drafting is the way to go in all leagues due to the fact that it keeps the bottom teams interested for more of the season due to their ability to obtain the top talent in the free agent pool. He said that it was bad for owner morale when one of the top teams got one of the top free agents via FAAB early in the year.

I hate AJ Mass.

 

steveski

Footballguy
I dont' think you guys are getting it

order

A

B

C

D

A claims Julius Thomas

B claims Dallas Clark

new order

C

D

A

B

A got a better player and is still ahead of B

Proposed new order

C

D

B

A

next round of waivers whould be in reverse order like a draft
There's no problem with that. If Team B just wanted Thomas then they wouldn't win the claim and they'd be at the top of the list. They decided to put in a claim for the 2nd guy so they got their claim and move to the back. And if you're really going to get that picky and say that this isn't fair enough then I think it's time to just switch to FAAB.
but it's kind of unfair that Team A risks less to gain more
It all evens out. If Team B didn't grab someone right away then eventually Team A will be behind Team B. Does that mean that Team B now has an unfair advantage?

 

pollardsvision

Footballguy
Free-agent auction pretty much solves everything.

No idea why every league hasn't converted to auction drafting and free-agency by now.
In AJ Mass' chat for ESPN yesterday, he was arguing that non-auction drafting is the way to go in all leagues due to the fact that it keeps the bottom teams interested for more of the season due to their ability to obtain the top talent in the free agent pool. He said that it was bad for owner morale when one of the top teams got one of the top free agents via FAAB early in the year.

I hate AJ Mass.
Yeah, he's pretty crazy on that.

Even assuming his theory is true (highly debatable), that's the last thing fantasy football needs, even more ways to keep bad teams relevant and interested. What, weekly match-ups and 75% of the league making the playoffs isn't good enough?

 

Lydia

Footballguy
I dont' think you guys are getting it

order

A

B

C

D

A claims Julius Thomas

B claims Dallas Clark

new order

C

D

A

B

A got a better player and is still ahead of B

Proposed new order

C

D

B

A

next round of waivers whould be in reverse order like a draft
The slight advantage of being ahead of someone else in line to start the season is trivial over the course of 14 weeks. If B isn't getting good Free Agent value in picking up Dallas Clark, then just don't pick up anyone and hold onto your spot until some back-up running back all of a sudden becomes the feature back after the lead guy goes down with injury.

 

Craig_MiamiFL

Footballguy
I dont' think you guys are getting it

order

A

B

C

D

A claims Julius Thomas

B claims Dallas Clark

new order

C

D

A

B

A got a better player and is still ahead of B

Proposed new order

C

D

B

A

next round of waivers whould be in reverse order like a draft
FAAB

/thread

 

NYCGangGreen

Footballguy
FAAB isn't for every league. You need a group of guys that really know how to maintain it or else you end up with an owner who blows 80% of his cap on 3 players.

So no, FAAB isn't the end all be all. Rolling waivers work just fine.

I still laugh at all the Auction people who think they have it right, but use team D.

Man up and move to IDP. That ends everything, because a LB pickup can be just as valuable as that 3rd WR you're eyeing. IDP + Rolling waivers. That's how you settle this issue. Actually IDP balances out so many issues, and makes not only the draft better, but trades and free agent/waiver claims as well.

 

FlapJacks

Footballguy
I dont' think you guys are getting it

order

A

B

C

D

A claims Julius Thomas

B claims Dallas Clark

new order

C

D

A

B

A got a better player and is still ahead of B

Proposed new order

C

D

B

A

next round of waivers whould be in reverse order like a draft
The slight advantage of being ahead of someone else in line to start the season is trivial over the course of 14 weeks. If B isn't getting good Free Agent value in picking up Dallas Clark, then just don't pick up anyone and hold onto your spot until some back-up running back all of a sudden becomes the feature back after the lead guy goes down with injury.
suppose two backup runningbacks become the lead guy?

Now A gets the better back AND is still higher in priority

I know we game around inequities, but the inequity is there and Team A did nothing skillful to gain that edge

 

NYCGangGreen

Footballguy
I dont' think you guys are getting it

order

A

B

C

D

A claims Julius Thomas

B claims Dallas Clark

new order

C

D

A

B

A got a better player and is still ahead of B

Proposed new order

C

D

B

A

next round of waivers whould be in reverse order like a draft
The slight advantage of being ahead of someone else in line to start the season is trivial over the course of 14 weeks. If B isn't getting good Free Agent value in picking up Dallas Clark, then just don't pick up anyone and hold onto your spot until some back-up running back all of a sudden becomes the feature back after the lead guy goes down with injury.
suppose two backup runningbacks become the lead guy?

Now A gets the better back AND is still higher in priority

I know we game around inequities, but the inequity is there and Team A did nothing skillful to gain that edge
So basically you're not getting Julius Thomas and are upset about it?

 

pollardsvision

Footballguy
FAAB isn't for every league. You need a group of guys that really know how to maintain it or else you end up with an owner who blows 80% of his cap on 3 players.

So no, FAAB isn't the end all be all. Rolling waivers work just fine.

I still laugh at all the Auction people who think they have it right, but use team D.

Man up and move to IDP. That ends everything, because a LB pickup can be just as valuable as that 3rd WR you're eyeing. IDP + Rolling waivers. That's how you settle this issue. Actually IDP balances out so many issues, and makes not only the draft better, but trades and free agent/waiver claims as well.
FAAB doesn't solve everything, but it's the perfect way to distribute unowned players.

And who says blowing 80% of the cap on 3 players isn't a great strategy? Personally, I prefer to be out of money by about Week 6.

(Actually, inexperienced FAAB people are far more likely to not spend enough than spend too much. From what I've seen they almost always finish the year with at least half their budget leftover)

Also, the way to dummy-proof it is to have $0 minimum bids. You get the fair way to distribute newly valuable FA's without limiting transactions. 80% of transactions end up being the $0 variety.

We use FAAB in a very casual, family league with some people that don't pay much attention. They seem to be able to figure it out. Actually, they've less experienced ones have never played with waivers, so that would probably be confusing to them (which makes sense because it's a pretty senseless set-up).

Explaining waivers to a new player is pretty annoying. Explaining FAAB is easy because it actually makes some sense.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

FlapJacks

Footballguy
I dont' think you guys are getting it

order

A

B

C

D

A claims Julius Thomas

B claims Dallas Clark

new order

C

D

A

B

A got a better player and is still ahead of B

Proposed new order

C

D

B

A

next round of waivers whould be in reverse order like a draft
The slight advantage of being ahead of someone else in line to start the season is trivial over the course of 14 weeks. If B isn't getting good Free Agent value in picking up Dallas Clark, then just don't pick up anyone and hold onto your spot until some back-up running back all of a sudden becomes the feature back after the lead guy goes down with injury.
suppose two backup runningbacks become the lead guy?

Now A gets the better back AND is still higher in priority

I know we game around inequities, but the inequity is there and Team A did nothing skillful to gain that edge
So basically you're not getting Julius Thomas and are upset about it?
I drafted Julius Thomas

 

FlapJacks

Footballguy
FAAB isn't for every league. You need a group of guys that really know how to maintain it or else you end up with an owner who blows 80% of his cap on 3 players.

So no, FAAB isn't the end all be all. Rolling waivers work just fine.

I still laugh at all the Auction people who think they have it right, but use team D.

Man up and move to IDP. That ends everything, because a LB pickup can be just as valuable as that 3rd WR you're eyeing. IDP + Rolling waivers. That's how you settle this issue. Actually IDP balances out so many issues, and makes not only the draft better, but trades and free agent/waiver claims as well.
FAAB doesn't solve everything, but it's the perfect way to distribute unowned players.

And who says blowing 80% of the cap on 3 players isn't a great strategy? Personally, I prefer to be out of money by about Week 6.

(Actually, inexperienced FAAB people are far more likely to not spend enough than spend too much. From what I've seen they almost always finish the year with at least half their budget leftover)

Also, the way to dummy-proof it is to have $0 minimum bids. You get the fair way to distribute newly valuable FA's without limiting transactions. 80% of transactions end up being the $0 variety.

We use FAAB in a very casual, family league with some people that don't pay much attention. They seem to be able to figure it out. Actually, they've less experienced ones have never played with waivers, so that would probably be confusing to them (which makes sense because it's a pretty senseless set-up).
Would love if my league did FAAB, but they are too old school. A minor tweak to waiver priority, if the sofware supported it, migt be a doable, albeit minor change that would make the process more interesting and equitable

 

jvdesigns2002

Footballguy
I dont' think you guys are getting it

order

A

B

C

D

A claims Julius Thomas

B claims Dallas Clark

new order

C

D

A

B

A got a better player and is still ahead of B

Proposed new order

C

D

B

A

next round of waivers whould be in reverse order like a draft
It is not unfair because you are leaving a major thing out of the equation. The waivor system is ranked so that the better your waiver position--the better the access you have to guys who are free agents (basically the leftovers from the draft). However--what you are disregarding is that the reason why team A started on top of the waivor system is because they were the last team to have access to the pool of desirable players in the draft. It only makes sense that the last person that gets to get access to the more desirable drafted players--starts off with the best access at the leftover players. If team b constantly feels as though they are at a disadvantage--the answer is easy--go one week early in the system where you don't pick a player off of waivors--this should put you ahead of team A and you would now be in the pole position.

 

Bri

Footballguy
I like it when a claim is made, that that team becomes last in line for the next round of waivers.

So if team A is first, for the second round or next week, he is then 12th in WW priority.

In a league a million years ago, if some team was in last place two years in a row, they had the first two WW picks so they could get two players before anyone else. FWIW they were worst team for a third year. You can't assume they'll take the best prospect if they regularly have the worst team.

In the FSWA league, we all get 1000 fake dollars to spend on waivers. Whomever bids the most gets the player.This seems fair to me and I like forcing owners to put a value on their interest.

 

Johnny Blood

Footballguy
but it's kind of unfair that Team A risks less to gain more
Team A 'spends' more in your example. I'm not sure what you mean by risk. (He is absolutely risking that B and others won't make claims, which will leave him at the bottom.)

Team A gives up a more valuable commodity. That's objective: higher waiver priorities are better than lower waiver priorities. You then say Team A "gains more". That is subjective, based on how different people evaluate the value of the players claimed by A and B. If you think the players claimed by those higher in waiver priority are always worth more, I absolutely disagree.

I think the problem with your analysis is that you are only looking at a single week. You need to look at the whole season. If Team B is frequently more promiscuous with waiver claims than A, it is entirely fair that he is usually below A.

If they are equally promiscuous then there is no problem. You are then ignoring that there is some reason that Team A started out above B---presumably that he drafted below B.

 
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FlapJacks

Footballguy
If you have 8 teams and 8 desirable players come up, then everybody stakes their claims, then the team at the top is still the team at the top

 

FlapJacks

Footballguy
but it's kind of unfair that Team A risks less to gain more
Team A 'spends' more in your example. I'm not sure what you mean by risk. (He is absolutely risking that B and others won't make claims, which will leave him at the bottom.)

Team A gives up a more valuable commodity. That's objective: higher waiver priorities are better than lower waiver priorities. You then say Team A "gains more". That is subjective, based on how different people evaluate the value of the players claimed by A and B. If you think the players claimed by those higher in waiver priority are always worth more, I absolutely disagree.

I think the problem with your analysis is that you are only looking at a single week. You need to look at the whole season. If Team B is frequently more promiscuous with waiver claims than A, it is entirely fair that he is usually below A.

If they are equally promiscuous then there is no problem. You are then ignoring that there is some reason that Team A started out above B---presumably that he drafted below B.
no matter wahta playerB does, he will still have lower priority than A. If A takes a guy, he stll has a chance of being higher in priority than B. These are unequal outcomes for the same decision

If they are equaly promiscuous, then it's like a draft where A picks first in every round

 

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