An Interview With Ben Ferencz (1 Viewer)

[Henry Ford]

Ben Ferencz, the last living prosecutor for the Nuremberg trials, was interviewed recently by Leslie Stahl.  I found it interesting.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-the-last-nuremberg-prosecutor-alive-wants-the-world-to-know/

Benjamin Ferencz: They were 3,000 SS officers trained for the purpose, and directed to kill without pity or remorse, every single Jewish man, woman, and child they could lay their hands on.

Lesley Stahl: So they went right in after the troops?

Benjamin Ferencz: That was their assignment, come in behind the troop, round up the Jews, kill 'em all.

Only one piece of film is known to exist of the Einsatzgruppen at work.  It isn't easy viewing…

Benjamin Ferencz: Well, this is typical operation.  Well, see here, this-- they rounded 'em up. They all have already tags on 'em. And they're chasing them.

Lesley Stahl: They're making them run to their own death?

Benjamin Ferencz: Yes. Yes. There's the rabbi coming along there. Just put 'em in the ditch. Shoot 'em there. You know, kick 'em in.

Lesley Stahl: Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

This footage came to light years later. At the time, Ferencz just had the documents, and he started adding up the numbers.

Benjamin Ferencz: When I reached over a million people murdered that way, over a million people, that's more people than you've ever seen in your life, I took a sample. I got on the next plane, flew from Berlin down to Nuremberg, and I said to Taylor, "General, we've gotta put on a new trial."

But the trials were already underway, and prosecution staff was stretched thin. Taylor told Ferencz adding another trial was impossible.

Benjamin Ferencz: And I start screaming. I said, "Look. I've got here mass murder, mass murder on an unparalleled scale."  And he said, "Can you do this in addition to your other work?" And I said, "Sure." He said, "OK. So you do it."

And that's how 27-year-old Ben Ferencz became the chief prosecutor of 22 Einsatzgruppen commanders at trial number 9 at Nuremberg.

Judge: How do you plead to this indictment, guilty or not guilty?

Defendant: Nicht schuldig.

Benjamin Ferencz: Standard routine, nicht schuldig.  Not guilty. 

Judge: Guilty or not guilty?

Defendant: Nicht schuldig.

Lesley Stahl: They all say not guilty.

Benjamin Ferencz: Same thing, not guilty.

But Ferencz knew they were guilty and could prove it. Without calling a single witness, he entered into evidence the defendants' own reports of what they'd done. Exhibit 111: "In the last 10 weeks, we have liquidated around 55,000 Jews."  Exhibit 179, from Kiev in 1941: "The city's Jews were ordered to present themselves… about 34,000 reported, including women and children. After they had been made to give up their clothing and valuables, all of them were killed, which took several days." Exhibit 84, from Einsatzgruppen D in March of 1942: Total number executed so far: 91,678. Einsatzgruppen D was the unit of Ferencz's lead defendant Otto Ohlendorf. He didn't deny the killings -- he had the gall to claim they were done in self-defense.

Benjamin Ferencz: He was not ashamed of that. He was proud of that. He was carrying out his government's instructions.

Lesley Stahl: How did you not hit him?

Benjamin Ferencz: There was only one time I wanted to-- really. One of these-- my defendants said-- He gets up, and he says, "[GERMAN]," which is, "What? The Jews were shot? I hear it here for the first time."  Boy, I felt if I'd had a bayonet I woulda jumped over the thing, and put a bayonet right through one ear, and let it come out the other. You know? You know?

Lesley Stahl: Yeah.

Benjamin Ferencz: That son of a #####.

Lesley Stahl: And you had his name down on a piece of—

Benjamin Ferencz: And I've got-- I've got his reports of how many he killed. You know? Innocent lamb.

Benjamin Ferencz: Well, if it's naive to want peace instead of war, let 'em make sure they say I'm naive. Because I want peace instead of war. If they tell me they want war instead of peace, I don't say they're naive, I say they're stupid. Stupid to an incredible degree to send young people out to kill other young people they don't even know, who never did anybody any harm, never harmed them. That is the current system. I am naive? That's insane.

Ferencz is legendary in the world of international law, and he's still at it. He never stops pushing his message and he's donating his life savings to a Genocide Prevention Initiative at the Holocaust Museum. He says he's grateful for the life he's lived in this country, and it's his turn to give back.

Lesley Stahl: You are such an idealist.

Benjamin Ferencz: I don't think I'm an idealist.  I'm a realist. And I see the progress.  The progress has been remarkable. Look at the emancipation of woman in my lifetime. You're sitting here as a female. Look what's happened to the same-sex marriages. To tell somebody a man can become a woman, a woman can become a man, and a man can marry a man, they would have said, "You're crazy." But it's a reality today. So the world is changing. And you shouldn't-- you know-- be despairing because it's never happened before. Nothing new ever happened before.

Lesley Stahl: Ben—

Benjamin Ferencz: We're on a roll.

Lesley Stahl: I can't—

Benjamin Ferencz: We're marching forward.

 

[IC FBGCav]

I only read interviews by Yandek, sorry.  

 

[E Street Brat]

First of all Ben......

 

[rockaction]

Does he believe in teleology then? Do you?  

Because in the nineties, that would have made you a neoconservative.  

 

[moleculo]

Everyone knows all quality interviews start off with, "first of all, how are you?"

 

[rockaction]

Somehow there was a recent thread about that guy that was saddening. Something about a fight with Wikipedia over removing him as an interviewer to the stars or something. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Does he believe in teleology then? Do you?  

Because in the nineties, that would have made you a neoconservative.  

I'm trying to figure out what you're asking here.  Can you unpack that?

"Believing in teleology" is a weird turn of phrase.  Are you asking in an ethical sense or an epistemic sense? Because based on the neocon stuff, it sounds like you're speaking ethically.  And I'm not sure I get where that's coming from.

 

[rockaction]

Maybe I'm using the term wrong. I'm using it in its specific philosophical sense. Do you think (sorry) we progress towards a historical end?  Like Francis Fukuyama did.  

Marxists believe in what they call "history"

Teleologists think we progress to an end point of history.

Teleology, (from Greek telos, “end,” and logos, “reason”), explanation by reference to some purpose, end, goal, or function.

Perhaps I'm just flat using the term wrong, but I pulled the above from Britannica.com

And I'm not grilling you, I'm just curious. Waiting to make a selection in a music draft. 

 

[wikkidpissah]

Saw that piece. Days on end i trudge thru this existence, venturing little but to indulge or escape the selfish, preening, scared & angry pretenders surrounding me. Then i see people like Ben Ferencz and remember what a human being can be. It helps -

 

[rockaction]

https://www.google.com/#q=fukuyama,+teleology

 

[Henry Ford]

Maybe I'm using the term wrong. I'm using it in its specific philosophical sense. Do you think (sorry) we progress towards a historical end?  Like Francis Fukuyama did.  

Marxists believe in what they call "history"

Teleologists think we progress to an end point of history.

Teleology, (from Greek telos, “end,” and logos, “reason”), explanation by reference to some purpose, end, goal, or function.

Perhaps I'm just flat using the term wrong, but I pulled the above from Britannica.com

And I'm not grilling you, I'm just curious.  

No, no, I understand what you're saying now.  Teleology is a term in a number of philosophical disciplines with slightly different meanings.  You're using it in the sense that a lot of current (especially the popular Russians touted by Bannon and such) use it in the last several decades as an epistemic term.

No, I don't think he does.  Progress doesn't mean progress toward an end state in that sense.  Progressing toward Starfleet or World Peace or whatever isn't quite the same as an historical endpoint, as I see it.  

Certainly I don't believe in that.

 

[Henry Ford]

Teleological just means "ends-directed".  So a teleological ethical view is a view of ethics in which the rightness or wrongness of an action is determined by its outcome.  

Teleological epistemic views focus on the alleged fact that there will be this ultimate end of history - Revelations, or Ragnarok, or whatever - and we're working toward that as a "goal."  I don't see Ferencz as being particularly motivated in either of those directions.

 

[rockaction]

Okay, just curious. 

Interesting that a twenty-seven did that while I was out every night during those years. Makes one feel a bit small. wikkid is right; gives one hope.  

 

[wikkidpissah]

thinkin' of changing my last name to Ragnarok....

 

[rockaction]

Teleological just means "ends-directed".  So a teleological ethical view is a view of ethics in which the rightness or wrongness of an action is determined by its outcome.  

Teleological epistemic views focus on the alleged fact that there will be this ultimate end of history - Revelations, or Ragnarok, or whatever - and we're working toward that as a "goal."  I don't see Ferencz as being particularly motivated in either of those directions.

Ah, thanks for the clarity. 

In other words, Kant would certainly not be a teleological ethicist. 

A utilitarian might be.  

Fukuyama or Marx would be (or have been) a teleological epistemologist.

Nietzsche or a pragmatist, say, would likely not be.  

And Ferencz, while an idealist, also is not epistemologically teleological.  He's just an idealist who sees things improving for people, but not moving towards a complete end or "goal."  

Does this sound at all close? 

 

[rockaction]

Anyway, I don't want to undermine the interview, it's just when i hear that last part of the interview, my antennae go up a bit.  

 

[Henry Ford]

Ah, thanks for the clarity. 

In other words, Kant would certainly not be a teleological ethicist. 

A utilitarian might be.  

Fukuyama or Marx would be (or have been) a teleological epistemologist.

Nietzsche or a pragmatist, say, would likely not be.  

And Ferencz, while an idealist, also is not epistemologically teleological.  He's just an idealist who sees things improving for people, but not moving towards a complete end or "goal."  

Does this sound at all close? 

Yeah, I'd say that's a working understanding.

 

[wikkidpissah]

of course, my first name doesnt really go with Ragnarok. lessee.......Theo. What about Theo? i know we were talkin bout teleology but theo- is an -ology too.......that's it, made my mind up. Soon as the peeps finally kick off, i'm Theo Ragnarok.

 

[Henry Ford]

I think a lot of "progressives" - those who believe strongly in working for "progress" - are more directed at moving away from something (injustice, inequality, etc) than moving toward some fictitious perfect utopia.  The Republican viewpoint ("It'll never be enough for them!") is probably true.  Certainly it would be impossible to attain some perfect world order in our lifetimes.  But progress away from or through the worst injustices can be made.  Progress in recognition of our shared duties to one another grounded in something other than religion can be made.  Progress toward a better future.  But I think the progressive mindset is always focused on the idea that there will still be a future as things progress.

 

[rockaction]

I think a lot of "progressives" - those who believe strongly in working for "progress" - are more directed at moving away from something (injustice, inequality, etc) than moving toward some fictitious perfect utopia.  The Republican viewpoint ("It'll never be enough for them!") is probably true.  Certainly it would be impossible to attain some perfect world order in our lifetimes.  But progress away from or through the worst injustices can be made.  Progress in recognition of our shared duties to one another grounded in something other than religion can be made.  Progress toward a better future.  But I think the progressive mindset is always focused on the idea that there will still be a future as things progress.

That makes a whole lot of sense. 

 

[wikkidpissah]

I feel about the word 'progressive' the way RedLong feels about 'liberal' - a term entirely misused. Since i took breath, i've believed in the Romantic notion of the Perfectability of Man. As far as i've lived, i've seen the dictate of life itself to be and have always been to improve, to progress. In neither scenario do i see or care about an end. This is a glorious opportunity we each of us have. One hundred billion others have been born into existence upon this impatient orb to lead lives fraught with little but burden and pain. We, us FFAppers, have every opportunity those hundred billion - and another billion species which improved into intelligence before that - died making possible and we spend it on memes, porkbellies and thinking Trump matters. Progress is all that matters - we get the chance to live as we will, but we are here to improve ourselves into something that improves it for all. WE ARE NOT HERE TO PROVE, WE ARE HERE TO PROVIDE!!!! That's progress - live, love, leave it better than you found it.

Signed, 

Theo Ragnorok, Esq

 

[Henry Ford]

It's also why the mindset of true progressives is so rooted in science, in domination of logic over gut instinct, and in shared experience and expanding community.  The "globalist mindset" the right is concerned with the left having isn't actually about subjugating the individual to the group, it's about seeing the progress made in the history of human kind and extrapolating that as the sense of community has expanded from the individual to the family to the tribe to the nation, etc., humanity has made remarkable progress.  The ability to fold "the other" into a society with shared responsibilities and duties to care for and defend one another has led to most of the major social, artistic, and scientific advances that have brought us from cave paintings to today. The more we take care of each other, the more we are able to focus ourselves as individuals and as a group and do amazing things.

It's hard to invent the internet when you're starving in the streets. We'd like the next innovator to be able to innovate, not malnourished and living under a freeway.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I have not contributed, not as I might, not as I should.

 

[wikkidpissah]

It's also why the mindset of true progressives is so rooted in science, in domination of logic over gut instinct, and in shared experience and expanding community.  The "globalist mindset" the right is concerned with the left having isn't actually about subjugating the individual to the group, it's about seeing the progress made in the history of human kind and extrapolating that as the sense of community has expanded from the individual to the family to the tribe to the nation, etc., humanity has made remarkable progress.  The ability to fold "the other" into a society with shared responsibilities and duties to care for and defend one another has led to most of the major social, artistic, and scientific advances that have brought us from cave paintings to today. The more we take care of each other, the more we are able to focus ourselves as individuals and as a group and do amazing things.

It's hard to invent the internet when you're starving in the streets. We'd like the next innovator to be able to innovate, not malnourished and living under a freeway.

If i could use all my likes for a month, i'd use it on this

 

[wikkidpissah]

I have not contributed, not as I might, not as I should.

Not saying you gotta drop what you're doing and go build houses for the poor or mentor somebody, but i wouldnt stop you if you did.

But taking life personally is not what life is for. The last couple of generations have provided explosive new freedoms for almost all of us that we'd have been fools not to enjoy. But it has changed who we are - for good or ill, until 2-3 gens ago we did everything together. Blue-in-the-face i've become saying that the problem with America is that its become 300million separate constituencies. Yes, yes, yes - we can. Don't mean we should.

Want a good start? Read the Red Words - the words of Christ in the Bible. I advise, but do not require, that you ignore the I am the Lord Thy God, Heaven's Bouncer stuff as something he had to say in order to be taken seriously. Just about the function of human beings, the possible glory of our nation, race, species, genus, whateverthe####. THAT'S what fills us, provides for others, ensures & expands posterity. To but have only in order to give and you are free.

Sincerely,

Theo Ragnarok

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Not saying you gotta drop what you're doing and go build houses for the poor or mentor somebody, but i wouldnt stop you if you did.

But taking life personally is not what life is for. The last couple of generations have provided explosive new freedoms for almost all of us that we'd have been fools not to enjoy. But it has changed who we are - for good or ill, until 2-3 gens ago we did everything together. Blue-in-the-face i've become saying that the problem with America is that its become 300million separate constituencies. Yes, yes, yes - we can. Don't mean we should.

Want a good start? Read the Red Words - the words of Christ in the Bible. I advise, but do not require, that you ignore the I am the Lord Thy God, Heaven's Bouncer stuff as something he had to say in order to be taken seriously. Just about the function of human beings, the possible glory of our nation, race, species, genus, whateverthe####. THAT'S what fills us, provides for others, ensures & expands posterity. Have only in order to give and you are free.

Sincerely,

Theo Ragnarok

I have worked with Habitat for Humanity.  I have mentored.  I donate time to H.S. Moot Court teams.  I have mentored potential citizens.  I have given substantial time to Ducks Unlimited, the Izaak Walton League, the Friends of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area, and the Sierra Club.  I have litigated and I have used a shovel to clean waterways and to plant trees, and to build trails.  Mostly, however, I have indulged myself, and I am reminded of that fact when a truly good man crosses my path.  I am not shamed by this fact.  I am somewhat embarrassed and I am certainly humbled.

 

[Zow]

I only read interviews by Yandek, sorry.  

  ####### hell, my exact first thought as well. 

That said, that's an interesting read.  

 

[wikkidpissah]

I have worked with Habitat for Humanity.  I have mentored.  I donate time to H.S. Moot Court teams.  I have mentored potential citizens.  I have given substantial time to Ducks Unlimited, the Izaak Walton League, the Friends of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area, and the Sierra Club.  I have litigated and I have used a shovel to clean waterways and to plant trees, and to build trails.  Mostly, however, I have indulged myself, and I am reminded of that fact when a truly good man crosses my path.  I am not shamed by this fact.  I am somewhat embarrassed and I am certainly humbled.

Hear you loud and clear. So many are burdened by selfishness these days, it's made me a proselyte. Sry if i overstepped -

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Hear you loud and clear. So many are burdened by selfishness these days, it's made me a proselyte. Sry if i overstepped -

Not at all.  I invited comment by posting.  You accepted and responded with food for thought.

 

[Henry Ford]

I have not contributed, not as I might, not as I should.

Often the difference is having been in the position to choose between no one doing anything and contributing yourself. 

This guy was standing in the spot to have to decide that. And made the admirable call.