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An "odd"/"suspicious" observation (IND vs. SD) (1 Viewer)

Mario Kart

Footballguy
Overall, I think Ron Rivera got a little payback from the Superbowl game a couple years ago. Good for him.

The "odd" part I am referring to in the title was the snap count during the first half of the game. The Colts were doing their normal thing, Manning reading the defense when they set up (although the defense changed the look which Manning did not like), and snapping the ball in the 1-3 seconds left on the play clock. The San Diego defense disguised their look and did many things in the first half that won them the battle.

Early second quarter or late in the first quarter, John Madden made a few comments about how the San Diego defense was switching things up. But, he specifically mentioned at the 10 second mark in the play clock is when they began to shift around and finally set their defense near the end of the play clock. He went on for a few minutes about it and NBC even showed how San Diego was doing this.

During the first half, the Colts did not make any changes to how or when they were snapping the ball. They played their game.

Now, in the second half, what happened? The Colts switched things up and starting hiking the ball earlier than the 1-3 second mark. By an "odd" coincidence, they hiked the ball near the 10 second mark on a few series' which ended up working out for them. And, NBC even demonstrated and emphasized the change the Colts' offense did.

Now, maybe Manning and the offense are clever enough to see the timing the Chargers were using (10 second) and making adjustments. However, I find it "odd" or "coincidental" or even "suspicious" that the Colts just so happened to change things up just enough as what the NBC commentators talked about, showed, and emphasized during the telecast. I am not going to say NBC, Madden, viewers or the combination "helped" the Colts in any way, but I find it rather odd that the change happened in just the same manner that was outlined by Madden and crew.

Yeah, yeah. Put the :thumbup: on and all but, what if?

 
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Now, in the second half, what happened? The Colts switched things up and starting hiking the ball earlier than the 1-3 second mark. By an "odd" coincidence, they hiked the ball near the 10 second mark on a few series' which ended up working out for them. And, NBC even demonstrated and emphasized the change the Colts' offense did. Now, maybe Manning and the offense are clever enough to see the timing the Chargers were using (10 second) and making adjustments. However, I find it "odd" or "coincidental" or even "suspicious" that the Colts just so happened to change things up just enough as what the NBC commentators talked about, showed, and emphasized during the telecast. I am not going to say NBC, Madden, viewers or the combination "helped" the Colts in any way, but I find it rather odd that the change happened in just the same manner that was outlined by Madden and crew. Yeah, yeah. Put the :thumbup: on and all but, what if?
I'm sure the Colts booth heard what Madden was saying and perhaps they made adjustments based on his observations. If their coaches were good they would have observed that themselves though. I guess we'll never know whether they'd have made those adjustments on their own though.
 
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Peyton walks a fine line between micromanaging a game and masterring it when he's barking at the LOS. He's going to react if an opposing team messes with him. Peyton surely seems perceptive enough to catch that SD was doing that. Young Peyton learning on the field how to deal with BBs complex Ds was fascinating to watch. Every team tested him over and over and now he's ridiculously hard to trick. NFL D cooridinators built their own nightmare.

I just thought SD stopped, didn't notice what you did so thanks for the headsup. My Q would be, why didn't SD then go with the switch at 15 secs or some sorta counter in this game within a game? Doesn't really matter now I'm just sayin'.

 
I doubt very much that Manning or the Colts' coaching staff were unaware of what San Diego was doing. And the obvious counter was to do what they did. So, yes, Madden and NBC pointed it out, but it wasn't a gotcha.

 
Take your insight a step further, grasshopper...

You could see the Chargers changing the defense after Manning called plays with 5-10 seconds left.

In the earlier game you could see the Cardinals knowing exactly when to rush the passer.

How was the information that enabled these behaviors obtained?

 
Take your insight a step further, grasshopper...

You could see the Chargers changing the defense after Manning called plays with 5-10 seconds left.

In the earlier game you could see the Cardinals knowing exactly when to rush the passer.

How was the information that enabled these behaviors obtained?
Studying game film.
 
Take your insight a step further, grasshopper...

You could see the Chargers changing the defense after Manning called plays with 5-10 seconds left.

In the earlier game you could see the Cardinals knowing exactly when to rush the passer.

How was the information that enabled these behaviors obtained?
Studying game film.
And why doesn't every team approach every game vs the Colts this way? And why did the Cardinals look like a completely different defense yesterday?

Can this all be written off as "trying harder because its the playoffs"?

 
I am going to go out on a limb and say that John Madden was not ahead of the Colt's coaching staff and Payton Manning. I would guess that the Colt's coaching staff and Manning caught this themselves and adjusted for it.

 
I believe there is a rule where the coaches upstairs and the replay officials are not allowed to have audio of the game available to them. Acess is granted to the networks during practice week so the announcers can prepare,there are things they see in practice they comment on during the game,thus the rule. I don't think Madden making the observation gave either team an "edge".

 
We've heard repeatedly from sources on this board that John Madden is nothing but a buffoon who adds no useful insights on what is going on in a game. So obviously no one could have gotten anything useful from something he said in a broadcast.

 
Overall, I think Ron Rivera got a little payback from the Superbowl game a couple years ago. Good for him.The "odd" part I am referring to in the title was the snap count during the first half of the game. The Colts were doing their normal thing, Manning reading the defense when they set up (although the defense changed the look which Manning did not like), and snapping the ball in the 1-3 seconds left on the play clock. The San Diego defense disguised their look and did many things in the first half that won them the battle.Early second quarter or late in the first quarter, John Madden made a few comments about how the San Diego defense was switching things up. But, he specifically mentioned at the 10 second mark in the play clock is when they began to shift around and finally set their defense near the end of the play clock. He went on for a few minutes about it and NBC even showed how San Diego was doing this. During the first half, the Colts did not make any changes to how or when they were snapping the ball. They played their game.Now, in the second half, what happened? The Colts switched things up and starting hiking the ball earlier than the 1-3 second mark. By an "odd" coincidence, they hiked the ball near the 10 second mark on a few series' which ended up working out for them. And, NBC even demonstrated and emphasized the change the Colts' offense did. Now, maybe Manning and the offense are clever enough to see the timing the Chargers were using (10 second) and making adjustments. However, I find it "odd" or "coincidental" or even "suspicious" that the Colts just so happened to change things up just enough as what the NBC commentators talked about, showed, and emphasized during the telecast. I am not going to say NBC, Madden, viewers or the combination "helped" the Colts in any way, but I find it rather odd that the change happened in just the same manner that was outlined by Madden and crew. Yeah, yeah. Put the :tinfoilhat: on and all but, what if?
Wat?
 
Take your insight a step further, grasshopper...

You could see the Chargers changing the defense after Manning called plays with 5-10 seconds left.

In the earlier game you could see the Cardinals knowing exactly when to rush the passer.

How was the information that enabled these behaviors obtained?
Studying game film.
And why doesn't every team approach every game vs the Colts this way? And why did the Cardinals look like a completely different defense yesterday?

Can this all be written off as "trying harder because its the playoffs"?
Funny thing about ideas that work. Some people ask why they weren't thought of before they were
 
I am going to go out on a limb and say that John Madden was not ahead of the Colt's coaching staff and Payton Manning. I would guess that the Colt's coaching staff and Manning caught this themselves and adjusted for it.
I am pretty sure that the Colts came out in the second half with those changes, and the booth guys noticed. Probably a simple 1/2 time adjustment.I don't know how much affect it had, but it did cause confusion. Was pretty fun to watch them with all the defensive stunts, and then see what happened when Peyton snapped the ball at the 10 second point instead.
 
I remember watching another game that Madden was calling. On one play, the QB dropped back to pass, a couple of rushers made it through, and he was sacked. Madden said that the line really needed to do a better job protecting the quarterback. Well, on the very next play, the line did do a better job pass-blocking and the QB threw for a first down. I wonder if Madden was trying to help that team, too.

 
I remember watching another game that Madden was calling. On one play, the QB dropped back to pass, a couple of rushers made it through, and he was sacked. Madden said that the line really needed to do a better job protecting the quarterback. Well, on the very next play, the line did do a better job pass-blocking and the QB threw for a first down. I wonder if Madden was trying to help that team, too.
:thumbup:
 
I remember watching another game that Madden was calling. On one play, the QB dropped back to pass, a couple of rushers made it through, and he was sacked. Madden said that the line really needed to do a better job protecting the quarterback. Well, on the very next play, the line did do a better job pass-blocking and the QB threw for a first down. I wonder if Madden was trying to help that team, too.
That is a good way to trivialize it, sure. But, the whole 10-second deal is a much more discrete change then an offensive line playing better.
 
somewhat off topic, but with all of the bashing Madden gets, I thought yesterday's performance was pretty good.

 
I remember watching another game that Madden was calling. On one play, the QB dropped back to pass, a couple of rushers made it through, and he was sacked. Madden said that the line really needed to do a better job protecting the quarterback. Well, on the very next play, the line did do a better job pass-blocking and the QB threw for a first down. I wonder if Madden was trying to help that team, too.
I saw another similar situation where Madden said that the team needed to try and get into the endzone and they did. :goodposting:
 
I remember watching another game that Madden was calling. On one play, the QB dropped back to pass, a couple of rushers made it through, and he was sacked. Madden said that the line really needed to do a better job protecting the quarterback. Well, on the very next play, the line did do a better job pass-blocking and the QB threw for a first down. I wonder if Madden was trying to help that team, too.
That is a good way to trivialize it, sure. But, the whole 10-second deal is a much more discrete change then an offensive line playing better.
I think the point is that there's nothing wrong with TV guys in the booth offering their observations and analysis. Even if it gives one of the teams a good idea, that's fine. Madden doesn't have any special access to the Chargers' headsets or anything. He can't see or hear anything that the teams' coaches up in the box can. So any insight Madden can come up with, he is perfectly free to share with the world; there's nothing odd or suspicious about that.
 
The real conspiracy here is by the Colts! If they snapped every play 10 seconds early, where did all those seconds go?

Could they use all those seconds later on tonight when the Chargers aren't expecting it and run enough plays to win the game? :blackdot:

 
Overall, I'm unimpressed with John Madden's insights.

If he was bright enough to catch on to what was happening, I'm pretty sure Indy's coaching staff saw it too.

Put the tin foil hat back in the closet, Madden was not in cahoots with Peyton.

 
Take your insight a step further, grasshopper...

You could see the Chargers changing the defense after Manning called plays with 5-10 seconds left.

In the earlier game you could see the Cardinals knowing exactly when to rush the passer.

How was the information that enabled these behaviors obtained?
Studying game film.
And why doesn't every team approach every game vs the Colts this way? And why did the Cardinals look like a completely different defense yesterday?

Can this all be written off as "trying harder because its the playoffs"?
NE Patriots, for one, have always played Manning like that, showing one thing at the 10 second mark, and a completely different scheme at 3-4 second mark.
 
Take your insight a step further, grasshopper...

You could see the Chargers changing the defense after Manning called plays with 5-10 seconds left.

In the earlier game you could see the Cardinals knowing exactly when to rush the passer.

How was the information that enabled these behaviors obtained?
It's obvious. The Cardinals have been illegally video-taping the Falcons' signals. How else could they possibly know when their opponent might pass? :coffee: :bye:

In all seriousness...Manning and the staff caught it and made an adjustment with no help from Madden. You think after a drive or two Manning didn't catch on that they were moving around to disguise coverage until the very last second? I think most every NFL QB would see that almost right away. Even after knowing that they were doing it, he might still let it go for a half just to see if they could keep it up or would get sloppy. His only alternative is to snap early with no idea what coverage they have called. And that only helps him if he randomly catches them out of position in a manner advantageous to him considering the play he has called. It's basically a game of chicken.

It's not so easy trying to get your play and package called, your personnel changed and your offense up to the line (and set with no motion violations) in 15-20 seconds. I can see how that type adjustment taking some half-time discussion with all parts of the offense including the OC getting on the same page. Whole pages of plays and personnel packages might be scrapped from the game plan to make that kind of adjustment. The impact alone on substitutions could be significant.

 
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Some time last season, or the season before, ESPN's Tuesday Morning Quarterback pointed out that the way to beat Peyton is to not settle into your defense until later than normal. Let him go through his "chicken dance" and the pointing, which is often meaningless, and just meander about and don't get into your final set until you have to. Whichever team did this that week really beat up on Manning.

Anyway, my point was that this was a known tactic to get to Manning that anyone who reads ESPN.com could have stumbled across. I think it's possible that not only did someone at the Chargers realize this, but, someone at the Colts then figured out how to counter it.

 
I thought that SD was also doing something similar to what Utah did to Alabama in their bowl game the day before with their line shifts as the playclock ran down. I haven't seen much of Utah, but I wonder if Weddle provided any insight into that particular tactic.

Madden knows what he's talking about when it comes to football. He is rarely wrong about players and spots small things that are big keys in games. The stuff you see on Mad TV is a disgrace. John Madden has a brilliant football mind. Pay attention to what he talks about and you'll learn quite a bit.

 
I thought that SD was also doing something similar to what Utah did to Alabama in their bowl game the day before with their line shifts as the playclock ran down. I haven't seen much of Utah, but I wonder if Weddle provided any insight into that particular tactic. Madden knows what he's talking about when it comes to football. He is rarely wrong about players and spots small things that are big keys in games. The stuff you see on Mad TV is a disgrace. John Madden has a brilliant football mind. Pay attention to what he talks about and you'll learn quite a bit.
Are you related to him or something? John Madden had a brilliant football mind, but he lost it several years ago. I can't remember the last time I actually learned something watching him call a game. Except maybe what a turducken is.
 
I thought that SD was also doing something similar to what Utah did to Alabama in their bowl game the day before with their line shifts as the playclock ran down. I haven't seen much of Utah, but I wonder if Weddle provided any insight into that particular tactic. Madden knows what he's talking about when it comes to football. He is rarely wrong about players and spots small things that are big keys in games. The stuff you see on Mad TV is a disgrace. John Madden has a brilliant football mind. Pay attention to what he talks about and you'll learn quite a bit.
Are you related to him or something? John Madden had a brilliant football mind, but he lost it several years ago. I can't remember the last time I actually learned something watching him call a game. Except maybe what a turducken is.
What do you mean you haven't learned anything? What about this piece of brilliant info:"Here's a guy who when he runs he goes faster!"
 
I am going to go out on a limb and say that John Madden was not ahead of the Colt's coaching staff and Payton Manning. I would guess that the Colt's coaching staff and Manning caught this themselves and adjusted for it.
I've always liked Madden and appreciate his straight forwardness and, at times, simplicity. You don't always have to out-think yourself.If this was coincidence (as I suspect), Madden was all over it and it was a great observation.
 
Take your insight a step further, grasshopper...

You could see the Chargers changing the defense after Manning called plays with 5-10 seconds left.

In the earlier game you could see the Cardinals knowing exactly when to rush the passer.

How was the information that enabled these behaviors obtained?
Studying game film.
And why doesn't every team approach every game vs the Colts this way? And why did the Cardinals look like a completely different defense yesterday?

Can this all be written off as "trying harder because its the playoffs"?
Can I have "illegally gotten game film" for $100?Just kidding but, yes the Cardinals must have uncovered some tendencies and knew some keys to the snap count.

 
I thought that SD was also doing something similar to what Utah did to Alabama in their bowl game the day before with their line shifts as the playclock ran down. I haven't seen much of Utah, but I wonder if Weddle provided any insight into that particular tactic. Madden knows what he's talking about when it comes to football. He is rarely wrong about players and spots small things that are big keys in games. The stuff you see on Mad TV is a disgrace. John Madden has a brilliant football mind. Pay attention to what he talks about and you'll learn quite a bit.
Are you related to him or something? John Madden had a brilliant football mind, but he lost it several years ago. I can't remember the last time I actually learned something watching him call a game. Except maybe what a turducken is.
What do you mean you haven't learned anything? What about this piece of brilliant info:"Here's a guy who when he runs he goes faster!"
Sure, there is a little Yogi Berra in him, but he does give you nugggets sometimes. I would much rather hear JM's insight than the Monday Night color commentary.
 
Some time last season, or the season before, ESPN's Tuesday Morning Quarterback pointed out that the way to beat Peyton is to not settle into your defense until later than normal. Let him go through his "chicken dance" and the pointing, which is often meaningless, and just meander about and don't get into your final set until you have to. Whichever team did this that week really beat up on Manning.Anyway, my point was that this was a known tactic to get to Manning that anyone who reads ESPN.com could have stumbled across. I think it's possible that not only did someone at the Chargers realize this, but, someone at the Colts then figured out how to counter it.
This week's TMQ mentions the Chargers D using this tactic, and points out that it was started five years ago by the Patriots (he calls it the "Times Square Defense", i.e., the D mulls around like tourists at Times Square until it's too late for Manning to do anything). So any team that has seen the Pats play the Colts in the last 5 years, and has the defenders capable of pulling it off, can run this ploy against Manning.
 

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