Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
lol you guys kill me --- he isn't making 16m, unless you meant over the remainder of his contract
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Andre Johnson wants out of the Texans (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter JohnnyU
- Start date
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
You are mistaken. He is counting 16m against the 2014 cap and thats the number that matters in the trade talks.
http://www.overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Andre%20Johnson&Position=WR&Team=Texans
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
no, it's not --- it's not what matters, and it's not the same as making 16m.
could you guys plz put some minimal effort into understanding wtf you're talking about before you offer up opinions on it?
am I really asking too much?
I mean, I expect it from you random riffraff, but yudkin really got to me --- he's usually better than that.
edit: shout out to overthecap, btw -- that guy's pretty awesome.
check out his podcasts
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fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
Arrogance is very unbecoming. I fully realize the cap figure isn't the same as what Andre Johnson is being paid. He is set to be paid 11 million, and thats what a new team would be on the hook for AJ if they traded for him.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
this is a nitpick, but he's set to be paid 10m ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN #######G LINK
which you apparently didn't read
but, I wouldn't bust balls over a million here or there
edit: and if I might add, thx for bringing that up, as THAT'S A FURTHER SAVINGS DAVID YUDKIN --- 10m in cool realbux
which is also a smaller number than 16m, in case somebody ever offers you a choice of either
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cstu
Footballguy
You really should tone it down. You have a point but you can make it without insulting people.
$10M is his salary but he also has a $1M roster bonus due Week 1 that he didn't earn with the Texans because he failed to participate in offseason workouts. It's possible that he'll expect whoever trades for him to pay the roster bonus.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
yeah, I'm aware of that, as it's been widely reported on the internet, including rotoworld, the above linked overthecap, and probably copied over here by faust in 3 or 4 threads by now
"that he didn't earn" means he's currently not getting it.
btw, I didn't insult anybody in that quoted post --- you don't even know what was under those hashmarks
Milkman
Footballguy
Guys the Texans need a QB. Getting rid of Andre Johnson will make them a 3 win team again which is "great"! Getting the #1 pick in next years draft so they can draft a QB would set them up for years. All they would need is for the QB to be slightly above league average considering how good their pass rush should be for the next 5-6 years.
Hopefully he comes around and re-joins the team. Things won't be that bad for him. He might even do better than last year.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/22/houston-texans-offense-fear-the-beard/
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/22/houston-texans-offense-fear-the-beard/
Monsters of the Midway
Footballguy
If Kool-Aid Larry is this angry when he has a point, I'd hate to see him when he's wrong. Take a breath, guy.
Monsters of the Midway
Footballguy
For whatever this is worth-according to Lance Zierlein KC got a 2nd round pick for a 33 year old Tony Gonzalez in 2009.
Larry, please tone it down. Throwing in constant jabs at people and swearing about their opinions only detracts from the kind of discussion we want here.
cstu
Footballguy
The difference would be Gonzo's base salaries:
2009: $4 million, 2010: $4.5 million, 2011: $5.75 million
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
yeah, that's really the main hurdle --- johnson's money isn't guaranteed that I know of, but he's still probably going to want every cent, based on his past attitude, and I don't know if there will be a team that wants to pay a guy his age 10m/yr
people talk about him being a vet cap casualty next year, and he probably senses the same possibility, and he probably wants to shake somebody down for some money before he's a 34 yr old wr on the fa market.
this is all my speculation, of course, but I don't see him being as accommodating as randy moss trying to leave town.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Someone asked for previous trades involving WRs as comparisons. I am sure there are more, but here are the ones I could find or remember . . .
Jerry Rice (42) went from OAK to SE for a 7th
Terrell Owens (31) originally went from SF to BAL for a 2nd (which got nixed)
Terrell Owens (31) then went from SF to PHI for a 5th and DE Brandon Whiting
Randy Moss (28) went from MIN to OAK for a 1st and LB Napoleon Harris
Randy Moss (30) went form OAK to NE for a 4th
Randy Moss (33) and a 7th went from NE to MIN for a 3rd
James Lofton (31) went from GB to OAK for a 3rd
Javon Walker (28) went from GB to DEN for a 2nd
Wes Welker (26) went from MIA to NE for a 2nd and a 7th
Irving Fryar (31) went from NE to MIA for a 2nd and a 3rd
Brandon Marshall (26) went from DEN to CHI for a 2nd
Derrick Mason (37) went from NYJ to HOU for a 7th
Santonio Holmes (26) went from PIT to NYJ for a 5th
Chris Chambers (29) went from MIA to SD for a 2nd
Anquan Boldin (30) went from ARI to BAL for a 3rd and a 4th
Anquan Boldin (33) went from BAL to SF for a 6th
Chad Johnson (33) went from CIN to NE for a 5th and a 6th
Joey Galloway (29) went from SEA to DAL for 2 first round picks
Joey Galloway (33) went from DAL to TB for WR Keyshawn Johnson
Santana Moss (26) went from NYJ to WAS for WR Laveranues Coles
John Jefferson (25) went from SD to GB for two first, two seconds, and WR Aundra Thompson
Wes Chandler (25) went from NO to SD for a 1st, a 3rd, and WR Aundra Thompson
Wes Chandler (32) went from SD to SF for C Fred Quilan
Jerry Rice (42) went from OAK to SE for a 7th
Terrell Owens (31) originally went from SF to BAL for a 2nd (which got nixed)
Terrell Owens (31) then went from SF to PHI for a 5th and DE Brandon Whiting
Randy Moss (28) went from MIN to OAK for a 1st and LB Napoleon Harris
Randy Moss (30) went form OAK to NE for a 4th
Randy Moss (33) and a 7th went from NE to MIN for a 3rd
James Lofton (31) went from GB to OAK for a 3rd
Javon Walker (28) went from GB to DEN for a 2nd
Wes Welker (26) went from MIA to NE for a 2nd and a 7th
Irving Fryar (31) went from NE to MIA for a 2nd and a 3rd
Brandon Marshall (26) went from DEN to CHI for a 2nd
Derrick Mason (37) went from NYJ to HOU for a 7th
Santonio Holmes (26) went from PIT to NYJ for a 5th
Chris Chambers (29) went from MIA to SD for a 2nd
Anquan Boldin (30) went from ARI to BAL for a 3rd and a 4th
Anquan Boldin (33) went from BAL to SF for a 6th
Chad Johnson (33) went from CIN to NE for a 5th and a 6th
Joey Galloway (29) went from SEA to DAL for 2 first round picks
Joey Galloway (33) went from DAL to TB for WR Keyshawn Johnson
Santana Moss (26) went from NYJ to WAS for WR Laveranues Coles
John Jefferson (25) went from SD to GB for two first, two seconds, and WR Aundra Thompson
Wes Chandler (25) went from NO to SD for a 1st, a 3rd, and WR Aundra Thompson
Wes Chandler (32) went from SD to SF for C Fred Quilan
Call me crazy but New England should be willing to send a 1st Rounder over to Houston for Andre Johnson. You've got to figure that both Johnson and Brady have about the same expiration date at this point, as far as the future is concerned and those two would definitely make New England contenders for the next few years.
Seems to me a 1st Rounder would make Houston forget about any salary cap concerns.
I mean realistically, no way this happens but if you are the brass up in New England, you have to consider it.
If Trent Richardson was worth a 1st Rounder, Andre Johnson is worth two.
Seems to me a 1st Rounder would make Houston forget about any salary cap concerns.
I mean realistically, no way this happens but if you are the brass up in New England, you have to consider it.
If Trent Richardson was worth a 1st Rounder, Andre Johnson is worth two.
SproutDaddy
Footballguy
Salary cap?
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
Monsters of the Midway
Footballguy
Ah, good point. For some reason I didn't consider salaries, even with all of the talk about cap hits and such. Of course, I misinterpreted that initially toocstu said:
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
DropKick
Footballguy
His 2014 cap hit is $14.6 million (10M Salary, 470K prorated signing bonus, 200K option bonus, 3.9M restructure bonus).
His 2015 cap hit is $16.1 million (10.5M Salary, 470K prorated signing bonus, 200K option bonus, 3.9M restructure bonus, 1M roster bonus).
His 2016 cap hit is $14.7 million (11M Salary, 200K option bonus, 2.5M restructure bonus, 1M roster bonus).
From a financial perspective: If the Texans truly consider themselves a rebuilding team, I could see them taking the "paper" hit and getting out from under Andre's contract.
From a football perspective: Interesting dilemma if you're the Texan's GM. Finances aside, after Johnson, you have a young Deandre Hopkins and... well, that is about it at WR. I like Hopkins' much more as the #2 than the #1. They didn't draft a WR and this past draft was deep at the position. The running game has taken a step back too, as Foster has major question marks. I think you need Andre...
It comes down to what it takes to make Johnson happy. Is his major motivation a shot at a ring? Or, is it financial? Is Johnson's biggest concern that he could be cut or traded next year? Or, that in the event of injury/age, he won't realize that fat 2015-2016 salary?
His 2015 cap hit is $16.1 million (10.5M Salary, 470K prorated signing bonus, 200K option bonus, 3.9M restructure bonus, 1M roster bonus).
His 2016 cap hit is $14.7 million (11M Salary, 200K option bonus, 2.5M restructure bonus, 1M roster bonus).
From a financial perspective: If the Texans truly consider themselves a rebuilding team, I could see them taking the "paper" hit and getting out from under Andre's contract.
From a football perspective: Interesting dilemma if you're the Texan's GM. Finances aside, after Johnson, you have a young Deandre Hopkins and... well, that is about it at WR. I like Hopkins' much more as the #2 than the #1. They didn't draft a WR and this past draft was deep at the position. The running game has taken a step back too, as Foster has major question marks. I think you need Andre...
It comes down to what it takes to make Johnson happy. Is his major motivation a shot at a ring? Or, is it financial? Is Johnson's biggest concern that he could be cut or traded next year? Or, that in the event of injury/age, he won't realize that fat 2015-2016 salary?
They were so bad before him and he gave them his all for a long time. I hope this isn't ugly. Like Barry and some others, when the players get to a late point in their career I lose my hatred toward holdouts and do figure they deserve a chance to win it all.
I love Andre and think 31 teams should show a cursory interest. I understand they might not have the cap space, but teams usually have some bloated salary guy and I still think it's worth a cursory discussion.
My shot in the dark guess is the Pats wanted Andre for Mallett months ago and the Texans said that's too steep. So many players have changed teams and players joined teams after the draft that the NFL landscape is different today. The Texans still need a QB. I think they could be a very good team despite last year's record. Maybe the Mallett stuff is stale now or there is bitterness and the trade won't work. They ought to scan rosters and figure out some backup QB they adore and trade Andre for that QB.
In today's NFL we often see it coming where a team has a commodity and is about to get nothing for him-or relatively little. I think this is one of those times and they better act quickly.
I love Andre and think 31 teams should show a cursory interest. I understand they might not have the cap space, but teams usually have some bloated salary guy and I still think it's worth a cursory discussion.
My shot in the dark guess is the Pats wanted Andre for Mallett months ago and the Texans said that's too steep. So many players have changed teams and players joined teams after the draft that the NFL landscape is different today. The Texans still need a QB. I think they could be a very good team despite last year's record. Maybe the Mallett stuff is stale now or there is bitterness and the trade won't work. They ought to scan rosters and figure out some backup QB they adore and trade Andre for that QB.
In today's NFL we often see it coming where a team has a commodity and is about to get nothing for him-or relatively little. I think this is one of those times and they better act quickly.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Matt Waldman gives the chances of Houston Texan WR Andre Johnson to get traded at 70%
Doctor Jene Bramel puts the chances of him geting traded at 80%
------------------------------------------------
Sigmund Bloom@SigmundBloomJul 10
Percent chance Andre Johnson gets traded? @MattWaldman says 70, @jenebramel says 80 ! Tune in live for timely talk: https://www.youtube.com/user/Footballguysdotcom …
--------------------------------------------------
On the other hand Houston Texan beat writer John McClain doesn't give a percent but from everything he's been writing it seems if pressed that he would put the chance of WR Andre Johnson being traded at 0%.
--------------------------------------------------
John McClain@McClain_on_NFL · Jul 11 By the way, Bob McNair wants Andre Johnson to finish his career as a Texan. So he will. No trade. No cut. Report of retire.
John McClain@McClain_on_NFL · Jul 11
Count on Johnson to be with Texans when the dust settles
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/texans/article/Count-on-Johnson-to-be-with-Texans-when-the-dust-5614180.php?cmpid=twitter-premium&t=9d596f5f90cc308649
Doctor Jene Bramel puts the chances of him geting traded at 80%
------------------------------------------------
Sigmund Bloom@SigmundBloomJul 10
Percent chance Andre Johnson gets traded? @MattWaldman says 70, @jenebramel says 80 ! Tune in live for timely talk: https://www.youtube.com/user/Footballguysdotcom …
--------------------------------------------------
On the other hand Houston Texan beat writer John McClain doesn't give a percent but from everything he's been writing it seems if pressed that he would put the chance of WR Andre Johnson being traded at 0%.
--------------------------------------------------
John McClain@McClain_on_NFL · Jul 11 By the way, Bob McNair wants Andre Johnson to finish his career as a Texan. So he will. No trade. No cut. Report of retire.
John McClain@McClain_on_NFL · Jul 11
Count on Johnson to be with Texans when the dust settles
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/sports/texans/article/Count-on-Johnson-to-be-with-Texans-when-the-dust-5614180.php?cmpid=twitter-premium&t=9d596f5f90cc308649
You can't blame Johnson for wanting to retire on a high octane Offense. He had a few decent years with Matt Schaub but he needs to play with a gunslinger before he retires. Him going to New England would really be a gift to the league. It might take some pressure off Gronk even so teams won't be violently sending guys to chip him off the line.
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krsone21
Footballguy
The Raiders really want to add a #1 WR to the team and they have the cap space to make it happen. The Raiders have shown interest in Johnson.
They could offer Denarius Moore and a draft pick. Maybe even throw in Matt McGloin who played for O'Brien at Penn State. I'm not sure how high a draft pick the Raiders would be willing to give up.
They could offer Denarius Moore and a draft pick. Maybe even throw in Matt McGloin who played for O'Brien at Penn State. I'm not sure how high a draft pick the Raiders would be willing to give up.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
Not sure he would want Schaub as his QB again either (if much oh his concern has been the poor QB play in Houston).
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Ah, good point. For some reason I didn't consider salaries, even with all of the talk about cap hits and such. Of course, I misinterpreted that initially too
dhockster
Footballguy
I think there is very little chance Andre gets traded, for the following reasons:
1) The Texans don't want to trade him because he is their most productive all-time player
2) The Texans would probably want too much in a trade
3) Very few teams have enough cap space to take on Andre's salary
4) The most likely team that has the cap space and could use Andre to make a serious run at a Super Bowl, are the Bengals
and they generally do not go after big contract players.
1) The Texans don't want to trade him because he is their most productive all-time player
2) The Texans would probably want too much in a trade
3) Very few teams have enough cap space to take on Andre's salary
4) The most likely team that has the cap space and could use Andre to make a serious run at a Super Bowl, are the Bengals
and they generally do not go after big contract players.
grateful zed
Footballguy
potential new trolling schtik, ask dumb questions in the shark pool to see how worked up he gets.
12punch
Footballguy
I think he threw himself off a bridge after hearing about the finicky coin that likes to keep things even.
or possibly banned for cyberbullying.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
dhockster
Footballguy
dhockster
Footballguy
From Deadspin on Friday:
"The desire to leave isn't about money for Johnson; he's on track to make about $10 million this season. But he feels he's going to be wasting another prime season on a team trying to find its identity when he'd rather move to a contender. And though being nice doesn't guarantee anything, Johnson's made financial concessions for the betterment of the team. He restructured his contract in 2012 and 2013 so that money could be spent on other players.
The team added some new fun toys to their defensive front seven in Jadeveon Clowney and Louis Nix, and they'll harass teams, but as McClain said, Johnson's their best offensive player. Running back Arian Foster's excellent, too, but Ryan Fitzpatrick at quarterback isn't ideal. Johnson's given quite a bit to help the Texans contend, and they're trying to convince him to finish out his career while they figure out a new offensive identity. We'll have to see if Johnson deals with the rebuilding, or uses his only way out: retirement. It could get ugly either way."
The bolded comments are totally misleading, if not flat out wrong. The restructuring of Johnson's contract in 2012 and 2013 did not cost Johnson anything; In fact by converting his base salary for the upcoming season to a signing bonus he received the money upfront which he then had to invest as opposed to waiting to receive it over the course of the season. There were no concessions or giving up of anything by Johnson. He agreed to something that helped the Texans but also helped him in the process.
Also the Texans re-did Johnson's contract in 2010 when they did not have to, he still had 3 years left on his deal. They realized, however, that Johnson's Uncle, who represented Johnson, had cut such a bad deal, that they needed to restructure to keep Johnson happy. This they did even thought they were not obligated to do so. Johnson is not a victim in this situation. If he wanted to have more flexibility to sign with whoever he wanted he shouldn't have signed such a long deal. And he shouldn't have been foolish enough to have his Uncle represent him, when football agent was not his line of work.
"The desire to leave isn't about money for Johnson; he's on track to make about $10 million this season. But he feels he's going to be wasting another prime season on a team trying to find its identity when he'd rather move to a contender. And though being nice doesn't guarantee anything, Johnson's made financial concessions for the betterment of the team. He restructured his contract in 2012 and 2013 so that money could be spent on other players.
The team added some new fun toys to their defensive front seven in Jadeveon Clowney and Louis Nix, and they'll harass teams, but as McClain said, Johnson's their best offensive player. Running back Arian Foster's excellent, too, but Ryan Fitzpatrick at quarterback isn't ideal. Johnson's given quite a bit to help the Texans contend, and they're trying to convince him to finish out his career while they figure out a new offensive identity. We'll have to see if Johnson deals with the rebuilding, or uses his only way out: retirement. It could get ugly either way."
The bolded comments are totally misleading, if not flat out wrong. The restructuring of Johnson's contract in 2012 and 2013 did not cost Johnson anything; In fact by converting his base salary for the upcoming season to a signing bonus he received the money upfront which he then had to invest as opposed to waiting to receive it over the course of the season. There were no concessions or giving up of anything by Johnson. He agreed to something that helped the Texans but also helped him in the process.
Also the Texans re-did Johnson's contract in 2010 when they did not have to, he still had 3 years left on his deal. They realized, however, that Johnson's Uncle, who represented Johnson, had cut such a bad deal, that they needed to restructure to keep Johnson happy. This they did even thought they were not obligated to do so. Johnson is not a victim in this situation. If he wanted to have more flexibility to sign with whoever he wanted he shouldn't have signed such a long deal. And he shouldn't have been foolish enough to have his Uncle represent him, when football agent was not his line of work.
I agree. I just don't see it being feasible and beneficial for many teams. Who are the other teams that could fit him in? Carolina or SD would make sense, but I don't know their cap situation. Either way, I think he plays here and if he learns the playbook and plays hard, which I think he will, he'll have another great season.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
I don't understand why the Texans need to hang on to AJ. Trade him for a bag of peanuts, take the dead money cap hit and move forward on rebuilding. The franchise doesn't even look like the bad guy in all of this. AJ wanted out.
Whether it happens this year or next, AJ is a goner soon enough.
I realize the FO have their jobs to worry about but getting rid of AJ also helps the rebuilding cause in that it weakens the team for a better pick for this upcoming draft. If they are worried about setting a precedent for future players, then they can use the fact that AJ has given his whole career to the Texans so it is a pretty rare situation.
Whether it happens this year or next, AJ is a goner soon enough.
I realize the FO have their jobs to worry about but getting rid of AJ also helps the rebuilding cause in that it weakens the team for a better pick for this upcoming draft. If they are worried about setting a precedent for future players, then they can use the fact that AJ has given his whole career to the Texans so it is a pretty rare situation.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
If AJ re-structures like he has said he is willing to do, he could go many places. That doesn't solve the dead cap hit for the Texans, but it makes it easier for a team to take AJ.
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12punch
Footballguy
I think carolina's cap is trainwrecked, but that's just from memory.
a lot of teams could fit him in there if they really wanted to, but it's more an issue of the money he expects past this year, which is pretty steep for a guy his age.
and let's not forget that while aj is a talented guy, he was maybe a 130+ target guy prior to kubiak's scheme, averaging 4 td/yr.
brian hartline had 134 targets last year ---- 130+ is good but it's a pretty long ways from 180, and if I throw a ball at anybody 180x they'll put up numbers.
you won't see garcon leading the league at 182 this year.
dhockster
Footballguy
What I don't know is can a team go over the cap in a trade and then restructure to get under the cap. For instance, AJ's salary for next year is $10 million. If a team has less than that in current cap space, can they trade for him, go over the cap, and then restructure to get under the cap, or do they have to have enough cap space to take on his salary before they can trade for him. I don't think Houston can restructure because if they defer salary by restructuring, then the deferred amounts all hit their cap when they trade AJ. They would not want to do that.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
I dont blame Andre one bit, he restructures twice and now your plan is Ryan freakin Fitzpatrick at QB??
so this year is a total waste, maybe houston will get you a better QB next year Andre.....................
so this year is a total waste, maybe houston will get you a better QB next year Andre.....................
12punch
Footballguy
they would need the 10m in cap to make the trade -- they can't go over
but, even if a team like the pats doesn't currently have the 10m, there are ways you can shave your cap down, by cutting players or restructuring contracts.
12punch
Footballguy
as mentioned just a couple posts above yours, andre johnson isn't doing anybody any favors by restructuring those deals.
he's rolling into 2014 at the third highest salary at the position, and the 2nd largest cap hit --- only behind mike wallace's crazyass deal.
Jul 22 2003
Signed a 6 year $39 million contract with Houston (HOU)
Mar 3 2007
Signed a 6 year $70 million extension with Houston (HOU)
Aug 5 2010
Signed a 7 year $67.8 million extension with Houston (HOU)
now the shakedown artist wants out because he sees the writing on the wall next year and he wants to lock down another big payday halfway through his latest deal, as per usual, before he gets any older, or before his production leaves town with kubiak.
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dhockster
Footballguy
Yes, you are right they can. But at this point in the off-season, anybody they would have wanted to cut they would have already done it before now to give them the most flexibility in the off-season. Good teams at managing the cap
generally don't do a lot of restructuring to get under the cap because it easily can become a perpetual thing. See the Dallas Cowboys as an example of getting caught in the restructuring cycle.
Like I said before, salary cap issues are just one reason I don't think he will be traded. I think the fact that the Texans don't want to trade him and they don't have to trade him is the number one reason he will be on the Texans next
year.
blah blah blah. Just pile onto Fitzpatrick with everyone else. You think he'd be better off with Schaub or Bortles?
Fitzpatrick could be a fine game manager for the Texans: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/28/obrien-and-fitzpatrick-a-match-made-in-irish-heaven/
