Except Brady/Manning backers argue over who is better, and Young/Leinart backers argue over who is not worse.
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Andrea Kremer: "Vince Young pouts when things don't go his wa (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter redman
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chook
Footballguy
How about that rubbish she was saying about how Willie McGinest was texting her? Wow, how cool is Andrea, she's got Willie McGinest's phone number?! I bet those pretty girls at school she wishes she could've been one of are envious of her now.Not to hijack, but why does it appear she is undressing everyone of her sideline interviews? Like a giddy HS girl at a Motley Crue concert.
She makes me sick.
/EndHijack
Mr Capicollo
Footballguy
So was there any fallout from this in Titan-land?
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
No. I'm shocked that a player who goes 18-11 in his first two years in the NFL's toughest division with the worst set of WRs in the league gets so much flack. I love that Young is the QB of my favorite team, and I have no doubt that he'll continue developing and winning games.
Mookie Blaylock
Footballguy
Better hope he finds some smart pills.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Right. I forgot we'd determined he was stupid.
Mookie Blaylock
Footballguy
It happens.Right. I forgot we'd determined he was stupid.
Weapon of Mass Instruction
Watch my feet!
Colin -- go to the Wheelhouse's thread and give me your take on what this means regarding the Titans' WRs and/or VY.The Titans % on this stat are in the Pats/Colts territory. I mean, in the top 5 of the NFL.
I completely agree that they are a sorry set of WR with not one player that the defense fears or can get deep or can get open...but, how are they in the top 5 of this stat?
This has me stumped. Also, remember the Denver MNF game with all the WR drops? We discussed 7 drops. Someone may have access to the stat but I think we saw that the official stat showed them with 1 or 2 official drops. The drop and target stats have me confused.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
I don't know how they qualify the official version of "drops"* but I can perfectly visualize in my mind no fewer then 5 during the season. Scaife over the middle...Jones in the endzone...Roydell in the middle of the field...*My definition of a "drop": If I stand up and scream, "****** *****, I could have caught that!@", then it's a drop.
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Paddy O'Seanessy
Footballguy
I'll drink to that!Unfortunately, so would Matt -- apparently until the wee hours of the morning of game day.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Like, you, I just don't understand the constant uproar over this kid. They had more weapons on offense pre-VY, yet they were doing far worse. Now, however, every single loss or other thing that goes wrong is pinned on Young, but when they win or play well, it's in spite of him, right? We all know the guy's not a classic pocket passer, yet the coaching staff continues to force him under center with very few rollouts, etc. Why does the coaching staff get a free pass on trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? This reminds me so much of when they were tryning to make Randall Cunningham a pocket passer.As for the "pouting", it's pretty common knowledge that Young, like most great athletes and competitors, takes losing very, very hard. His problem is that he doesn't hide it well, and he hasn't lost much at all up until now. Does that = pouting? Not necessarily, but whatever makes a good story, right, Andrea?The other thing is that he's always been able to just put his team on his back and carry them when things were going badly...and it always worked. Now the coaches are taking the ball out of his hands in crucial situations. IMHO, the right balance is somewhere between what the coaches have been doing and what VY wants and is used to.
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Mookie Blaylock
Footballguy
I totally expect this from Longhorn/Titan homers, because the "upside" to this guy is rediculously phenomenal - at least based on the Rose Bowl. But that's just it, the guy's a winner, he puts his teams on his back, blah blah blah. Do you really think all that talent is going to give you, I don't know, Aikman numbers and rings someday? Do you?the hairy scotsman said:Like, you, I just don't understand the constant uproar over this kid. They had more weapons on offense pre-VY, yet they were doing far worse. Now, however, every single loss or other thing that goes wrong is pinned on Young. We all know the guy's not a classic pocket passer, yet the coaching staff continues to force him under center with very few rollouts, etc. Why does the coaching staff get a free pass on trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? This reminds me so much of when they were tryning to make Randall Cunningham a pocket passer.As for the "pouting", it's pretty common knowledge that Young, like most great athletes and competitors, takes losing very, very hard. His problem is that he doesn't hide it well, and he hasn't lost much at all up until now. Does that = pouting? Not necessarily, but whatever makes a good story, right, Andrea?The other thing is that he's always been able to just put his team on his back and carry them when things were going badly...and it always worked. Now the coaches are taking the ball out of his hands in crucial situations. IMHO, the right balance is somewhere between what the coaches have been doing and what VY wants and is used to.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
I dunno. When did I say he would have Aikman's number's? I'm just saying he doesn't deserve this bashing....as for rings, if the Titans continue to take the same approach on offense that the Lions did in the Sanders era (1 star, no support), he won't get even one.I totally expect this from Longhorn/Titan homers, because the "upside" to this guy is rediculously phenomenal - at least based on the Rose Bowl. But that's just it, the guy's a winner, he puts his teams on his back, blah blah blah. Do you really think all that talent is going to give you, I don't know, Aikman numbers and rings someday? Do you?the hairy scotsman said:Like, you, I just don't understand the constant uproar over this kid. They had more weapons on offense pre-VY, yet they were doing far worse. Now, however, every single loss or other thing that goes wrong is pinned on Young. We all know the guy's not a classic pocket passer, yet the coaching staff continues to force him under center with very few rollouts, etc. Why does the coaching staff get a free pass on trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? This reminds me so much of when they were tryning to make Randall Cunningham a pocket passer.
As for the "pouting", it's pretty common knowledge that Young, like most great athletes and competitors, takes losing very, very hard. His problem is that he doesn't hide it well, and he hasn't lost much at all up until now. Does that = pouting? Not necessarily, but whatever makes a good story, right, Andrea?
The other thing is that he's always been able to just put his team on his back and carry them when things were going badly...and it always worked. Now the coaches are taking the ball out of his hands in crucial situations. IMHO, the right balance is somewhere between what the coaches have been doing and what VY wants and is used to.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
This is what I don't understand. Of all the QBs in the league today there are 3 that you can say something like "Do you really think all that talent is going to give you, I don't know, Aikman numbers and rings someday? Do you?" Favre, Brady, and Manning. Other then that, there are guys that are obviously better then others, but no QB comes out of the womb as a HOFer. It takes time to develop. McNair was pretty mediocre his first 4 years, but for 4 seasons starting in 2000 he was an excellent quarterback, leader, and winner. We may have seen the last of McNabb's best, but he had a run in there of being a very good quarterback and winning a lot of games. In most every case, it doesn't happen right off the bat. The expectatios are high amongst homers because we've seen what he CAN do. Now, he just needs to do it more consistently with fewer errors, which should come with experience and learning. Why is that such a contentious point?I totally expect this from Longhorn/Titan homers, because the "upside" to this guy is rediculously phenomenal - at least based on the Rose Bowl. But that's just it, the guy's a winner, he puts his teams on his back, blah blah blah. Do you really think all that talent is going to give you, I don't know, Aikman numbers and rings someday? Do you?the hairy scotsman said:Like, you, I just don't understand the constant uproar over this kid. They had more weapons on offense pre-VY, yet they were doing far worse. Now, however, every single loss or other thing that goes wrong is pinned on Young. We all know the guy's not a classic pocket passer, yet the coaching staff continues to force him under center with very few rollouts, etc. Why does the coaching staff get a free pass on trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? This reminds me so much of when they were tryning to make Randall Cunningham a pocket passer.As for the "pouting", it's pretty common knowledge that Young, like most great athletes and competitors, takes losing very, very hard. His problem is that he doesn't hide it well, and he hasn't lost much at all up until now. Does that = pouting? Not necessarily, but whatever makes a good story, right, Andrea?The other thing is that he's always been able to just put his team on his back and carry them when things were going badly...and it always worked. Now the coaches are taking the ball out of his hands in crucial situations. IMHO, the right balance is somewhere between what the coaches have been doing and what VY wants and is used to.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Yet it would seem that the expectations are even higher from others.
FUBAR
Footballguy
There are some bad comparisons out there, but I don't get the Aikman one. Give Young Emmitt Smith and Michael Irvin type players and see what happens.I dunno. When did I say he would have Aikman's number's? I'm just saying he doesn't deserve this bashing....as for rings, if the Titans continue to take the same approach on offense that the Lions did in the Sanders era (1 star, no support), he won't get even one.I totally expect this from Longhorn/Titan homers, because the "upside" to this guy is rediculously phenomenal - at least based on the Rose Bowl. But that's just it, the guy's a winner, he puts his teams on his back, blah blah blah. Do you really think all that talent is going to give you, I don't know, Aikman numbers and rings someday? Do you?the hairy scotsman said:
As for the "pouting", it's pretty common knowledge that Young, like most great athletes and competitors, takes losing very, very hard. His problem is that he doesn't hide it well, and he hasn't lost much at all up until now. Does that = pouting? Not necessarily, but whatever makes a good story, right, Andrea?
The other thing is that he's always been able to just put his team on his back and carry them when things were going badly...and it always worked. Now the coaches are taking the ball out of his hands in crucial situations. IMHO, the right balance is somewhere between what the coaches have been doing and what VY wants and is used to.
The Sanders team comparison is interesting, but not accurate. Herman Moore, Scott Mitchell, and others were either very good players, or supposed to be. This off-season will be telling, if the Titans go after WRs like Stallworth, whom they couldn't get last year, or Javon Walker, that will tell me they want to give him support. If they insist on keeping after the D and drafting unproven projects (FWIW, I love Chris Henry, but he is a project) then they aren't serious about improving the O.
Mookie Blaylock
Footballguy
I was using Aikman as an example of a very good player on a GREAT team. He might not deserve the bashing, and yes, only time will tell what kind of player he will be. My biggest problem with VY is the "he puts the team on his back" arguement. The NFL is not college. I'm sure you know that. Look, if the guy turns out to be a great QB I'll be rooting for him. At times he's a lot of fun to watch. It's just my opinion that the "athlete-first" QB will never work in the NFL - not even with a stud like Vince.I dunno. When did I say he would have Aikman's number's? I'm just saying he doesn't deserve this bashing....as for rings, if the Titans continue to take the same approach on offense that the Lions did in the Sanders era (1 star, no support), he won't get even one.I totally expect this from Longhorn/Titan homers, because the "upside" to this guy is rediculously phenomenal - at least based on the Rose Bowl. But that's just it, the guy's a winner, he puts his teams on his back, blah blah blah. Do you really think all that talent is going to give you, I don't know, Aikman numbers and rings someday? Do you?the hairy scotsman said:
As for the "pouting", it's pretty common knowledge that Young, like most great athletes and competitors, takes losing very, very hard. His problem is that he doesn't hide it well, and he hasn't lost much at all up until now. Does that = pouting? Not necessarily, but whatever makes a good story, right, Andrea?
The other thing is that he's always been able to just put his team on his back and carry them when things were going badly...and it always worked. Now the coaches are taking the ball out of his hands in crucial situations. IMHO, the right balance is somewhere between what the coaches have been doing and what VY wants and is used to.
Mookie Blaylock
Footballguy
I never compared him to Aikman. I asked if the poster thought Vince would ever have those kind of numbers and rings. I never said 'he's like Aikman.'There are some bad comparisons out there, but I don't get the Aikman one. Give Young Emmitt Smith and Michael Irvin type players and see what happens.I dunno. When did I say he would have Aikman's number's? I'm just saying he doesn't deserve this bashing....as for rings, if the Titans continue to take the same approach on offense that the Lions did in the Sanders era (1 star, no support), he won't get even one.I totally expect this from Longhorn/Titan homers, because the "upside" to this guy is rediculously phenomenal - at least based on the Rose Bowl. But that's just it, the guy's a winner, he puts his teams on his back, blah blah blah. Do you really think all that talent is going to give you, I don't know, Aikman numbers and rings someday? Do you?the hairy scotsman said:
As for the "pouting", it's pretty common knowledge that Young, like most great athletes and competitors, takes losing very, very hard. His problem is that he doesn't hide it well, and he hasn't lost much at all up until now. Does that = pouting? Not necessarily, but whatever makes a good story, right, Andrea?
The other thing is that he's always been able to just put his team on his back and carry them when things were going badly...and it always worked. Now the coaches are taking the ball out of his hands in crucial situations. IMHO, the right balance is somewhere between what the coaches have been doing and what VY wants and is used to.
The Sanders team comparison is interesting, but not accurate. Herman Moore, Scott Mitchell, and others were either very good players, or supposed to be. This off-season will be telling, if the Titans go after WRs like Stallworth, whom they couldn't get last year, or Javon Walker, that will tell me they want to give him support. If they insist on keeping after the D and drafting unproven projects (FWIW, I love Chris Henry, but he is a project) then they aren't serious about improving the O.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Not really, they just don't "get it"
FUBAR
Footballguy
Do you expect Aikman numbers? WTF does that even mean? Do I expect Young to get a ring or 2? Yes.I never compared him to Aikman. I asked if the poster thought Vince would ever have those kind of numbers and rings. I never said 'he's like Aikman.'There are some bad comparisons out there, but I don't get the Aikman one. Give Young Emmitt Smith and Michael Irvin type players and see what happens.I dunno. When did I say he would have Aikman's number's? I'm just saying he doesn't deserve this bashing....as for rings, if the Titans continue to take the same approach on offense that the Lions did in the Sanders era (1 star, no support), he won't get even one.I totally expect this from Longhorn/Titan homers, because the "upside" to this guy is rediculously phenomenal - at least based on the Rose Bowl. But that's just it, the guy's a winner, he puts his teams on his back, blah blah blah. Do you really think all that talent is going to give you, I don't know, Aikman numbers and rings someday? Do you?the hairy scotsman said:
As for the "pouting", it's pretty common knowledge that Young, like most great athletes and competitors, takes losing very, very hard. His problem is that he doesn't hide it well, and he hasn't lost much at all up until now. Does that = pouting? Not necessarily, but whatever makes a good story, right, Andrea?
The other thing is that he's always been able to just put his team on his back and carry them when things were going badly...and it always worked. Now the coaches are taking the ball out of his hands in crucial situations. IMHO, the right balance is somewhere between what the coaches have been doing and what VY wants and is used to.
The Sanders team comparison is interesting, but not accurate. Herman Moore, Scott Mitchell, and others were either very good players, or supposed to be. This off-season will be telling, if the Titans go after WRs like Stallworth, whom they couldn't get last year, or Javon Walker, that will tell me they want to give him support. If they insist on keeping after the D and drafting unproven projects (FWIW, I love Chris Henry, but he is a project) then they aren't serious about improving the O.
Do I expect him to be a game managing QB with an average arm and relatively immobile? Absolutely not.
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Mookie Blaylock
Footballguy
So enlighten me. What is it that you get that we don't get? I personally expect Vince to fail in the NFL. I think his ceiling would be Steve Young - a SB, maybe an MVP, maybe two, who knows. I think his floor would be something like Vick - a great athlete without a whole hell of a lot of smarts that really shouldn't be playing QB in the NFL.
phthalatemagic
Footballguy
I'm not trying to make a point here and I actually like Vince Young as a QB, but holy cow does this sound familiar!
FUBAR
Footballguy
Aside from being a thug, when did Vick "Fail" in the NFL?If you're expecting Vince Young to be between Steve Young (one of the better QBs ever) and Vick, you do get it, but how is that failing?
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
I don't think VY needs to be putting his team on his back in the NFL. I said that's what he did in the past. I think you also might be confusing me with someone who thinks he should be running as much as he did in college. I don't. The Titans have taken him to the other extreme, however. The offense they are running not only doesn't take advantage of his strengths, it negates them. Of course, maybe they just feel they don't have the personnel to spread the field, so they're going with what they have. But if this is how they're choosing to roll, they might as well trade VY now. He can throw the ball deeper. You don't throw for 3000 yards at any level if you can't throw the rock. They're just ultra conservative.I was using Aikman as an example of a very good player on a GREAT team. He might not deserve the bashing, and yes, only time will tell what kind of player he will be. My biggest problem with VY is the "he puts the team on his back" arguement. The NFL is not college. I'm sure you know that. Look, if the guy turns out to be a great QB I'll be rooting for him. At times he's a lot of fun to watch. It's just my opinion that the "athlete-first" QB will never work in the NFL - not even with a stud like Vince.I dunno. When did I say he would have Aikman's number's? I'm just saying he doesn't deserve this bashing....as for rings, if the Titans continue to take the same approach on offense that the Lions did in the Sanders era (1 star, no support), he won't get even one.I totally expect this from Longhorn/Titan homers, because the "upside" to this guy is rediculously phenomenal - at least based on the Rose Bowl. But that's just it, the guy's a winner, he puts his teams on his back, blah blah blah. Do you really think all that talent is going to give you, I don't know, Aikman numbers and rings someday? Do you?the hairy scotsman said:
As for the "pouting", it's pretty common knowledge that Young, like most great athletes and competitors, takes losing very, very hard. His problem is that he doesn't hide it well, and he hasn't lost much at all up until now. Does that = pouting? Not necessarily, but whatever makes a good story, right, Andrea?
The other thing is that he's always been able to just put his team on his back and carry them when things were going badly...and it always worked. Now the coaches are taking the ball out of his hands in crucial situations. IMHO, the right balance is somewhere between what the coaches have been doing and what VY wants and is used to.
FUBAR
Footballguy
From what I've heard on the radio, it seems Young is trying to develop himself this way because he knows he'll have to throw more than run in order to last in the NFL and bring himself to the next level. I would be surprised if, as he develops more completely, he didn't run when appropriate but throw more often than Vick ever did. If they can get a legitimate deep threat, there will be more room for Young to run. This is why, as a VY owner, I'd love to see them get Walker or Stallworth. While I wouldn't expect either to get more than 1200/10, the impact on the offense would be HUGE.
GregR_2
Footballguy
I can't recall a player that I've ever been more right in the middle of so many differing opinions of him. For example:
* I think the anti-VY crowd tends to disregard the quality of his receivers too much, while the pro-VY crowd seems to put too much emphasis on it.
* I think the pro-VY crowd give too much credit for wins and not enough credit to the role of the defense and running game in those wins. But I think the anti-VY crowd don't give VY enough credit as to how much his presence helps the running game not just through his own legs, but helps the RBs similarly to how Vick's presence helped the Falcons RBs by making the LBs have to play more cautiously and causing defenses to have to have QB spies and such.
* The games I've watched, I saw quite a few passes that a receiver got his hands on, but the receiver was so covered he shouldn't have been expected to catch it with a guy jostling his arm when the ball gets there. The problem was that the ball shouldn't have been thrown to him, not that he dropped it. I'm just speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone pre-disposed to liking VY and not liking his WRs could think of it as a dropped pass, when to me the bigger problem was the pass shouldn't have been thrown because the receiver wasn't open. Of course there's no way to know if that's the case. I think Colin has a pretty decent head on his shoulders and when he says he's seeing a lot more drops than I recollect, I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.
* I think the anti-VY crowd frequently are underestimating how much he is likely to improve in future years, while the pro-VY crowd should, I think, be a little more concerned than they are about how much he has(n't) progressed in his 2nd year. I don't think "VY isn't smart enough to read NFL defenses well" is a good statement, but I think "It's a touch worrisome that VY doesn't seem to be picking this stuff up as well as one would have hoped" is very appropriate.
* I think the anti-VY crowd tends to disregard the quality of his receivers too much, while the pro-VY crowd seems to put too much emphasis on it.
* I think the pro-VY crowd give too much credit for wins and not enough credit to the role of the defense and running game in those wins. But I think the anti-VY crowd don't give VY enough credit as to how much his presence helps the running game not just through his own legs, but helps the RBs similarly to how Vick's presence helped the Falcons RBs by making the LBs have to play more cautiously and causing defenses to have to have QB spies and such.
* The games I've watched, I saw quite a few passes that a receiver got his hands on, but the receiver was so covered he shouldn't have been expected to catch it with a guy jostling his arm when the ball gets there. The problem was that the ball shouldn't have been thrown to him, not that he dropped it. I'm just speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone pre-disposed to liking VY and not liking his WRs could think of it as a dropped pass, when to me the bigger problem was the pass shouldn't have been thrown because the receiver wasn't open. Of course there's no way to know if that's the case. I think Colin has a pretty decent head on his shoulders and when he says he's seeing a lot more drops than I recollect, I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.
* I think the anti-VY crowd frequently are underestimating how much he is likely to improve in future years, while the pro-VY crowd should, I think, be a little more concerned than they are about how much he has(n't) progressed in his 2nd year. I don't think "VY isn't smart enough to read NFL defenses well" is a good statement, but I think "It's a touch worrisome that VY doesn't seem to be picking this stuff up as well as one would have hoped" is very appropriate.
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This is an excellent post. Vince is a very polarizing figure, but the truth probably lies in the middle as you have said. However, I think you did dance around one point that the VY homers are trying to make when you said this: "The games I've watched, I saw quite a few passes that a receiver got his hands on, but the receiver was so covered he shouldn't have been expected to catch it with a guy jostling his arm when the ball gets there. The problem was that the ball shouldn't have been thrown to him, not that he dropped it. I'm just speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone pre-disposed to liking VY and not liking his WRs could think of it as a dropped pass, when to me the bigger problem was the pass shouldn't have been thrown because the receiver wasn't open." The point is that in many of those cases, there were no open WR's because those guys are not talented enough to get consistent separation from defenders or to go and get the ball even if they are covered like Moss has done countless times this season when Brady throws him balls like that. Surely in some cases, Vince made the wrong read, but it was a problem for Tenn all year that their guys at WR have trouble getting open. That's why Vince homers think better WR's would improve Vince's numbers.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
This is exactly the same point I made in another thread where some posters were downgrading Vy in comparison to Cutler...and it's not a knock on Cutler. Cutler makes that same type of throw to Brandon Marshall, who then fights for the ball and wins. People don't lament the poor throw by Cutler. Some even admire the courage of it. Most teams have a WR or two who can win a battle like this with at least some regularity. The Titans don't.Another point you mention bears further discussion. You note that the Titans wrs rarely get noteworthy separation. This is in spite of the fact that they are almost always in single coverage. They run poor/wrong routes. They drop balls, esp at critical junctures. They don't scare anyone. There are many reasons the Titans' passing game doesn't get any respect, including the very predictable 1st and 2nd down playcalling. Unlike what some would have you believe, VY isn't the only reason.This is an excellent post. Vince is a very polarizing figure, but the truth probably lies in the middle as you have said. However, I think you did dance around one point that the VY homers are trying to make when you said this: "The games I've watched, I saw quite a few passes that a receiver got his hands on, but the receiver was so covered he shouldn't have been expected to catch it with a guy jostling his arm when the ball gets there. The problem was that the ball shouldn't have been thrown to him, not that he dropped it. I'm just speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone pre-disposed to liking VY and not liking his WRs could think of it as a dropped pass, when to me the bigger problem was the pass shouldn't have been thrown because the receiver wasn't open." The point is that in many of those cases, there were no open WR's because those guys are not talented enough to get consistent separation from defenders or to go and get the ball even if they are covered like Moss has done countless times this season when Brady throws him balls like that. Surely in some cases, Vince made the wrong read, but it was a problem for Tenn all year that their guys at WR have trouble getting open. That's why Vince homers think better WR's would improve Vince's numbers.
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FUBAR
Footballguy
Not only Randy Moss, but even a 2nd year player like Brandon Marshall has shown the ability to catch the ball despite being in such a position. None of the Titans WRs seem capable. Gage did better than the others in this regard, but he's not capable of getting true separation.The following is a thread hijack:
Here are Vick's passing stats over his career:Completion % = 53.8Yards per Attempt = 6.7Touchdowns = 71Interceptions = 52Passer Rating = 75.1Here are Byron Leftwich's stats over his career:Completion % = 58.6Yards per Attempt = 6.6Touchdowns = 52Interceptions = 38Passer Rating = 79.7Here are Elvis Grbac's stats over his career:Completion % = 59.1Yards per Attempt = 6.9Touchdowns = 99Interceptions = 81Passer Rating = 79.6Brian Griese's stats over his career:Completion % = 62.9Yards per Attempt = 7.0Touchdowns = 114Interceptions = 92Passer Rating = 83.6This is the type of company Vick keeps as a QB... these are QB's that are BETTER than Vick as QB's and are generally considered failures.Now if you want to look at Vick as a Running Back - that might have been different. I would say he would have graded out similar to Warrick Dunn - not a bad career really.
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Colin Dowling
Footballguy
It seems you think he should be HOFer already, which is completely unreasonable.
Excellent posting.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
By who? Griese has started for 4 different teams, had a 10 year career, and made the Pro-Bowl once. Grbac was in the league 8 years and started 5 of them. Injuries as much as anything did in his career. He went to the Pro Bowl once too.Those guys are far from HOF'ers, but its a little silly to call them "failures." It's also silly to say they are Better than Vick.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
No, no Colin. You don't get it (
). It's the hyperbolic nature of the internet. If you're not the best ever, you suck.
FUBAR
Footballguy
How about we look at Vick as a player and not try to use the logic "QBs are only as good as their passing stats"? If you're saying Vick = Dunn + Griese, I'm good with that. Dunn's a 3 time pro-bowler, Griese 1 time. Vick's also a 3 time pro-bowler in a 6 year career. If you're calling a player who made the pro-bowl half his years in the NFL a failure, well... ok.
FWIW, Favre made it just over half his years.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Vick had to make the pro-bowl..he was part of the NFL hype machine.How about we look at Vick as a player and not try to use the logic "QBs are only as good as their passing stats"? If you're saying Vick = Dunn + Griese, I'm good with that. Dunn's a 3 time pro-bowler, Griese 1 time. Vick's also a 3 time pro-bowler in a 6 year career. If you're calling a player who made the pro-bowl half his years in the NFL a failure, well... ok.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Ah, got it. When all else fails, resort to the "hype machine" argumentVick had to make the pro-bowl..he was part of the NFL hype machine.How about we look at Vick as a player and not try to use the logic "QBs are only as good as their passing stats"? If you're saying Vick = Dunn + Griese, I'm good with that. Dunn's a 3 time pro-bowler, Griese 1 time. Vick's also a 3 time pro-bowler in a 6 year career. If you're calling a player who made the pro-bowl half his years in the NFL a failure, well... ok.
Road Warriors
Footballguy
Vick had to make the pro-bowl..he was part of the NFL hype machine.How about we look at Vick as a player and not try to use the logic "QBs are only as good as their passing stats"? If you're saying Vick = Dunn + Griese, I'm good with that. Dunn's a 3 time pro-bowler, Griese 1 time. Vick's also a 3 time pro-bowler in a 6 year career. If you're calling a player who made the pro-bowl half his years in the NFL a failure, well... ok.
Vick was an extraordinary athlete who played the QB position. He created some matchup problems for opposing defenses and was able to move the ball reasonably well. However, I would not want Vick as a QB on my team. He never showed the ability to read defenses well and his accuracy was subpar for an NFL QB. I think failure is too strong, but a QB's job is to direct the offense to scores, and Vick's team was only in the top half of the league 1 year ( his first as a starter ). He wasn't that efficient as a NFL QB. His pro bowl appearances were more hype/name driven ( see. Williams, R S DAL ) than earned through high level play.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Which is why QB Rating suffers as an indicator of qb play across the board.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Vick made the Pro-Bowl in 2004..he threw 14 TDs, had 12 INTs, 3 Rushing TDs, less than 55% completion, #26 in passer rating, #28 in passing yards. I don`t think I am resorting to anything.Ah, got it. When all else fails, resort to the "hype machine" argumentVick had to make the pro-bowl..he was part of the NFL hype machine.How about we look at Vick as a player and not try to use the logic "QBs are only as good as their passing stats"? If you're saying Vick = Dunn + Griese, I'm good with that. Dunn's a 3 time pro-bowler, Griese 1 time. Vick's also a 3 time pro-bowler in a 6 year career. If you're calling a player who made the pro-bowl half his years in the NFL a failure, well... ok.FWIW, Favre made it just over half his years.
BelichicksRevenge
Footballguy
If I had to make a guess, i would say that Vince Young never develops into a very good qb. Its still too early to write him off but he has not impressed me in the games i have seen. maybe I caught him on some off games. the game i saw him play the most in was last year against the patriots and I thought he looked terrible. But i still say you have to wait until he is in his 4th season to really start calling him a bust or a failure.
FUBAR
Footballguy
I like how you ignore the 902 rushing yards.Vick made the Pro-Bowl in 2004..he threw 14 TDs, had 12 INTs, 3 Rushing TDs, less than 55% completion, #26 in passer rating, #28 in passing yards. I don`t think I am resorting to anything.Ah, got it. When all else fails, resort to the "hype machine" argumentVick had to make the pro-bowl..he was part of the NFL hype machine.How about we look at Vick as a player and not try to use the logic "QBs are only as good as their passing stats"? If you're saying Vick = Dunn + Griese, I'm good with that. Dunn's a 3 time pro-bowler, Griese 1 time. Vick's also a 3 time pro-bowler in a 6 year career. If you're calling a player who made the pro-bowl half his years in the NFL a failure, well... ok.
He also led his team to a 11-5 record and the conference championship. If you want to give credit to the defense, great, but it was the 14th ranked D.If you want to give credit to the rushing game, great, but without him, it would have been #20. Yep, he must have been a complete failure.I heard Jaworski say so last week - I'll take his word on it.Just curious, do you actually watch the games?1. The offense is NOT better with CollinsIt looked like VY quit on them last night. I woudnt want that guy at the helm of my team in the play-off's.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
As TO says..the proof is in the pudding. 2 FGsI heard Jaworski say so last week - I'll take his word on it.Just curious, do you actually watch the games?1. The offense is NOT better with CollinsIt looked like VY quit on them last night. I woudnt want that guy at the helm of my team in the play-off's.
FUBAR
Footballguy
How many TDs has Collins scored this year?Fisher kept Young in, he's got the coaching job. I'll take his opinion over Jaws any day.As TO says..the proof is in the pudding. 2 FGsI heard Jaworski say so last week - I'll take his word on it.Just curious, do you actually watch the games?1. The offense is NOT better with CollinsIt looked like VY quit on them last night. I woudnt want that guy at the helm of my team in the play-off's.
Mr Capicollo
Footballguy
Well, I guess we saw how this ended.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Yep..Fisher has to protect Young because of his draft slot and the time that will be have to be invested in him. So he said chow to Chow
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Fisher didn't fire Chow.
Banger
Footballguy
and AJ Smith didn't fire Shotty. In both cases I'm sure they didn't exactly go to bat for the fired parties....
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Fisher has no responsibility to stick up for Chow if he doesn't think that Chow is the guy for the job. Things change. The offense this season was downright AWFUL. They need talent added, for sure, but the whole thing looked out of sync this season.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Wow.Chow's firing is absolutely the best news I've heard all football season.His offense was dreadful. Pathetically predictable. How 'bout spreading the field more than just before the half or the end of games when you're trailing? Anyone else notice how well Young did in the spread?
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