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Apple v. US Government (1 Viewer)

Hypothetically, how do we know 100% that the phone has useful information?

The fact that phones are so pervasive in all areas of our lives, and thus wanted by law enforcement as a one-stop-shop-"investigating"-tool, tells us all we need to know about what liberties we would be giving up in this scenario. 

This is the slipperiest slope ever. Can't they just investigate to the best of their ability?

 
Trail of Bits Blog





Apple can comply with the FBI court order



February 17, 2016 by Dan Guido 41 Comments
Earlier today, a federal judge ordered Apple to comply with the FBI’s request for technical assistance in the recovery of the San Bernadino gunmen’s iPhone 5C. Since then, many have argued whether these requests from the FBI are technically feasible given the support for strong encryption on iOS devices. Based on my initial reading of the request and my knowledge of the iOS platform, I believe all of the FBI’s requests are technically feasible.


The FBI’s Request


In a search after the shooting, the FBI discovered an iPhone belonging to one of the attackers. The iPhone is the property of the San Bernardino County Department of Public Health where the attacker worked and the FBI has permission to search it. However, the FBI has been unable, so far, to guess the passcode to unlock it. In iOS devices, nearly all important files are encrypted with a combination of the phone passcode and a hardware key embedded in the device at manufacture time. If the FBI cannot guess the phone passcode, then they cannot recover any of the messages or photos from the phone.

There are a number of obstacles that stand in the way of guessing the passcode to an iPhone:

  • iOS may completely wipe the user’s data after too many incorrect PINs entries
  • PINs must be entered by hand on the physical device, one at a time
  • iOS introduces a delay after every incorrect PIN entry
As a result, the FBI has made a request for technical assistance through a court order to Apple. As one might guess, their requests target each one of the above pain points. In their request, they have asked for the following:

  1. [Apple] will bypass or disable the auto-erase function whether or not it has been enabled;
  2. [Apple] will enable the FBI to submit passcodes to the SUBJECT DEVICE for testing electronically via the physical device port, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, or other protocol available on the SUBJECT DEVICE; and
  3. [Apple] will ensure that when the FBI submits passcodes to the SUBJECT DEVICE, software running on the device will not purposefully introduce any additional delay between passcode attempts beyond what is incurred by Apple hardware.
In plain English, the FBI wants to ensure that it can make an unlimited number of PIN guesses, that it can make them as fast as the hardware will allow, and that they won’t have to pay an intern to hunch over the phone and type PIN codes one at a time for the next 20 years — they want to guess passcodes from an external device like a laptop or other peripheral....
Click to expand...






The above goes on but it is complex and worth a read.

- I am personally always for the max amount of free speech for the individual and think that should always control over any demand for the government but this after all a technical issue.




 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
The above goes on but it is complex and worth a read.

- I am personally always for the max amount of free speech for the individual and think that should always control over any demand for the government but this after all a technical issue.
Click to expand...
Yes, the goverment wants Apple to create a way for the government to brute force hack the Iphone.

 
Man this is a tough one.  I think I'm on Apple's side but I really want that phone cracked.  

The FBI letting everyone know that they're helpless here probably sends a bad message to our enemies though.

 
Put a big ### tariff on all Apple products for moving their corporation overseas.  I bet they would play ball then. 

 
Sinn Fein said:
I think Cook's position on this is right - if Apple builds it for this one-time only use - its already too late.  That master key will get out, and that compromises the data security on all iphones.

And, from a business perspective, the industry is clearly moving towards smart-phones replacing almost everything - certainly credit cards and the like.  
Click to expand...


Exactly. If Apple made a "master key", no way it doesn't leak. It would be worth hundreds of millions if not billions. 

Apple is doing the right thing here. Security is critical. 

 
Always fun seeing the usual suspects in here bashing Apple for not putting back doors in the product... Same crew would he here 2 weeks later saying how they wouldn't use it because it isn't secure due to a back door. 

Fishing by the Feds. Eat a ####. Cook, stick to your guns. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
I tried to drive a thread on these issues a while back but there seemed to be little interest. People seem hardly aware of free speech or how important it is and one day people will show up at the barricades and it will already be down.

Having said that it's incredibly frustrating that the government can't decrypt the Farooks' phones. It's crazy. 

However IMO a court cannot order anyone to create anything. But really I think Apple should do this voluntarily but keep the design to themselves. All they have to do is release the data in a criminal investigation. But I don't think they should hand the keys themselves to the government.
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This. The government has the phone, and they have a subpoena, as well as a legit need to see the info it might contain. I find it hard to believe that Apple designed security measures that even they can't work around.

Despite what Apple would have us believe, this is NOT a privacy issue. Privacy has always been subject to court subpoenas in criminal investigations, as it should be.

 
Can't the government just go to Verizon and get all of the calls and messages sent/received from the phone?

 
renesauz said:
This. The government has the phone, and they have a subpoena, as well as a legit need to see the info it might contain. I find it hard to believe that Apple designed security measures that even they can't work around.

Despite what Apple would have us believe, this is NOT a privacy issue. Privacy has always been subject to court subpoenas in criminal investigations, as it should be.
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The government has the phone. They can do whatever they want with it. 

Where is the evidence of crimes committed using the phones? Maybe the phones were sitting in a junk drawer for the last 6 months of the perps lives.

 
This is a County issued work phone that the FBI wants to access. The two personal cellphones of the terrorists were destroyed beyond the ability to retrieve any information. They also removed a hard drive from their computer which the FBI cannot find. If they covered their tracks that well, I would doubt they did any terrorist business on a County work phone, only to leave it behind to be found. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
renesauz said:
Despite what Apple would have us believe, this is NOT a privacy issue. Privacy has always been subject to court subpoenas in criminal investigations, as it should be.
Click to expand...
It's a privacy issue for me, and maybe you. Do you have an iPhone with banking information, credit cards etc. stored in it? I do. If Apple creates this workaround and it gets out, which inevitably it will, then I become susceptible to be hacked. As do millions of other iPhone users. So yes, it's a privacy issue for me, and I'd rather not let the government have free access to my phone. Or hackers access to my bank accounts. 

 
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Checks and balances

Let the government hack our phones (cause you know it's going to happen anyway), but if it's discovered that the government used this discovered information inappropriately (like say they shared it with local popo), then everyone who touched the forbidden fruit is subject to torture, and we get to stone five randomly selected US senators to death.

My point being is that I support the government's intent, but that if the information was used in ways not disclosed, people would pay, and pay dearly.

Send in the unicorns.

 
Mister CIA said:
Checks and balances

Let the government hack our phones (cause you know it's going to happen anyway), but if it's discovered that the government used this discovered information inappropriately (like say they shared it with local popo), then everyone who touched the forbidden fruit is subject to torture, and we get to stone five randomly selected US senators to death.

My point being is that I support the government's intent, but that if the information was used in ways not disclosed, people would pay, and pay dearly.

Send in the unicorns.
Click to expand...
1) what if someone other than the US govt uses the exploit to get your info. I look forward to your plan to  collect. 

2) what about when the US govt uses the exploit, you say "you did", they say "nuh uh". Explain how that plays out in your world. 

 
Wonder if the gov't can order Apple to find a way to hack into Hillary's deleted e-mails?

 
One thing I know for certain is that anything can be hacked. The only surprising thing with this story is that the NSA doesn't already know how. Apple already knows how, and in the slim chance that the don't have it developed already at least they don't have to de-engineer it. 

 
This has to go all the way to the Supreme Court where a 5-4 lefty majority would rule Apple has to do what the government wants.   That's why it's important for the people to decide the next Supreme Court justice, not Obama.

 
You guys know the inner workings of an iPhone better than I do, but isn't the data stored on some sort of media (RAM module, hard drive etc)?  If so, they have their algorithm for encryption.  Remove the storage and go to work on it.  There is absolutely no way the people who created this don't know how to get around their own code.  That's illogical to suggest.  They know how to get in.  They don't have to put a backdoor in the OS. 

 
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[icon] said:
Exactly. If Apple made a "master key", no way it doesn't leak. It would be worth hundreds of millions if not billions. 

Apple is doing the right thing here. Security is critical. 
Click to expand...
Wait....you guys really think Apple doesn't already know how to get at the data?  Really?  This "leak" you are afraid of is already a possible reality :shrug:   

 
I'm still unsure of how I feel about this. On one hand, I totally get where the FBI is coming from in wanting access to the iPhone to see who else/what else these 2 were talking to/had planned. On the other, I see Apple's side of if they do this, how far does this go for future requests.

Why couldn't Apple figure out a way to do it on their own and just share what they found with the FBI?

 
Why can't they have all employee creating the key be monitored & on lock down.  Make the key, access the phone, then HARD DELETE!

Kind of like how you have to go to the CIA to view top secret / classified information that is only kept on several computers.

This seems like an attention grab by Apple imo.  The only problem I foresee with cooperation is them coming back, then who is going to draw the line?  Say they have a cartel members phone, or a cereal killers phone, etc.

 
A computer expert just called into the morning show I listen to & he agrees with Apple.  He says they can already get into that phone if they make copies of it, then try passwords.  Then the auto lock would never lock the original device.

He claims they want a key so they can unlock any phone remotely.  They can already unlock any phone in their possession, but it's difficult.

 
spreagle said:
This has to go all the way to the Supreme Court where a 5-4 lefty majority would rule Apple has to do what the government wants.   That's why it's important for the people to decide the next Supreme Court justice, not Obama.
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This could be the worst post I ever read.   Let's rewrite the current law to let the people decide.   People are morons.

 
Soulfly3 said:
:lol:

you guys acting like you got some super secret data on your phone. HOLD STRONG APPLE!!! lol
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Do you like hackers having access to your banking/financial information?  It doesn't have to be coordinates to the lost arc of the covenant to be really important.

 
coyote5 said:
Do you like hackers having access to your banking/financial information?  It doesn't have to be coordinates to the lost arc of the covenant to be really important.
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Why would hackers have access to my banking information..? Who is dumb enough to do banking transactions with their cell phone?

 
Ditka Butkus said:
I can't believe Apple would sell a terrorist a phone...Apparently they have a sh***y vetting process.. Probably should stop selling Muslims phones altogether.
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Good idea, why not just expand the firearm background check process to Iphones, that way the criminals and terrorists won't get Iphones and the FBI will have no need to crack into them.  

 
The Commish said:
You guys know the inner workings of an iPhone better than I do, but isn't the data stored on some sort of media (RAM module, hard drive etc)?  If so, they have their algorithm for encryption.  Remove the storage and go to work on it.  There is absolutely no way the people who created this don't know how to get around their own code.  That's illogical to suggest.  They know how to get in.  They don't have to put a backdoor in the OS. 
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They can get through their own code, that's not the issue.  They don't know this guy's password (passcode) that he created.  They can try entering it themselves (0001...didn't work....0002...didn't work), but after so many failed attempts (I think 10), the phone automatically deletes all of it's content. 

At least that's how I understand it.

 
Ditka Butkus said:
Why would hackers have access to my banking information..? Who is dumb enough to do banking transactions with their cell phone?
Click to expand...
Look around, this isn't 1995 grandpa ;)   A lot of people do.  It's one of Apple's selling points with the Iphone.  Have you heard of Apple Pay?  

 
The Commish said:
Wait....you guys really think Apple doesn't already know how to get at the data?  Really?  This "leak" you are afraid of is already a possible reality :shrug:   
Click to expand...


So apple knows everyone's passcodes?

Or you can feel free to show any links indicating your assertion is anything more than wild speculation. 

 
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matttyl said:
They can get through their own code, that's not the issue.  They don't know this guy's password (passcode) that he created.  They can try entering it themselves (0001...didn't work....0002...didn't work), but after so many failed attempts (I think 10), the phone automatically deletes all of it's content. 

At least that's how I understand it.
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If they clone the phone they can try it on the clones, and not lock the original.  They don't need Apple.

 
I thought phone data was stored in the iCloud and when the phone is reset, through iTunes, it wipes the data off the phone but the user can restore everything from the cloud after the phone is wiped and reinitialized.  No passcode needed.  

 
Jayrok said:
I thought phone data was stored in the iCloud and when the phone is reset, through iTunes, it wipes the data off the phone but the user can restore everything from the cloud after the phone is wiped and reinitialized.  No passcode needed.  
Click to expand...
These folks turned off icloud 3 weeks before the attack.

 
matttyl said:
These folks turned off icloud 3 weeks before the attack.
Click to expand...
Roger.. didn't know they thought of that.  I wondered why they just didn't destroy the phone just before the attack and since they didn't do that, figured they didn't think of icloud..  

 
im surprised the fbi or whoever is working the case cannot pay someone to crack the iphones 4 digit lock

its obv stored somewhere on the phone, locate the data and have at it

 
If you are with Apple you side with the terrorist and don't want to keep America safe.How many times have we heard that in the Snowden case?

I'm with Apple on this one and it's really not even close.

 
chauncey said:
Can't the government just go to Verizon and get all of the calls and messages sent/received from the phone?
Click to expand...


They could get a list of the calls made and a list of messages sent (to and from).  They wouldn't be able to retrieve text messages. Phone companies don't retain those for very long at all.  Not to mention if they had anything else like photos or emails on the phone that might matter in the investigation.

 
Agreed. Not even close. This is, to me, one of those situations where the correct side/answer is so obvious, that I can't see any room for debate at all. I'm honestly baffled that anyone could support the government's argument here. 

 
Jayrok said:
Roger.. didn't know they thought of that.  I wondered why they just didn't destroy the phone just before the attack and since they didn't do that, figured they didn't think of icloud..  
Click to expand...
This was also their "work phone".  I think their personal phones and computers were all destroyed.  Due to this not being their personal phone, I'm not sure if anything of note would even be recovered from it.

 
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