What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Apple v. US Government (1 Viewer)

Thunderlips said:
Let's hope that what comes out of this is government regulation on the cell phone industry that mandates certain levels of backdoor capabilities to help facilitate in investigations like this.  I'm all for the cell phone company being the "keepers of the keys" and charging the government a fee for this though. 
Click to expand...
On second thought, let's hope exactly the opposite of that.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Billy Bats said:
Don't they have a right to protect their company and brand, along with hundreds of millions of their customers? 
Click to expand...
of course.  but they also have to comply with the court.  It gets gray when the court demands something that puts the above at risk and "backdoors for all" would certainly be an overstep.

ETA:  Forgot where I was for a second...to be clear for the audience:

"give me a hack so I can get in this phone" = :thumbdown:

"get the data off this phone for me" = a perfectly reasonable request as long as there's a warrant.  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
How can the government, who can't figure out how to do something, compel someone else to do it? what if the answer is "it can't be done"? How do they force someone to do something that they can't do? How do they prove that it can even be possible if they themselves can't do it?

 
coyote5 said:
Do you like hackers having access to your banking/financial information?  It doesn't have to be coordinates to the lost arc of the covenant to be really important.
Click to expand...
I have a problem with the government forcing a company to create software that does not exist. For the sole purpose of negating one of the selling points of their own products. If Apple loses the battle in court, I hope they put an intern on it and it takes them two decades.

 
Jobber said:
I have a problem with the government forcing a company to create software that does not exist. For the sole purpose of negating one of the selling points of their own products. If Apple loses the battle in court, I hope they put an intern on it and it takes them two decades.
Click to expand...
The bigger issue I have is the government forcing the company to create something which itself is illegal. 

 
I can only imagine what kind of fear and/or anxiety you guys live with knowing that at any moment a developer could turn your "world" upside down.  Didn't realize we had that sort of power of the general public.

 
As a long time Apple basher I find myself in the somewhat awkward position of siding with Apple. The government has no right to a "master key" IMHO.

 
Thunderlips said:
Let's hope that what comes out of this is government regulation on the cell phone industry that mandates certain levels of backdoor capabilities to help facilitate in investigations like this.  I'm all for the cell phone company being the "keepers of the keys" and charging the government a fee for this though. 

To that, Apple does come across as a bit of a ####. Something like this shouldn't have gotten to a court order. 
Click to expand...
Jesus christ.   :wall:

 
ericttspikes said:
How can the government, who can't figure out how to do something, compel someone else to do it? what if the answer is "it can't be done"? How do they force someone to do something that they can't do? How do they prove that it can even be possible if they themselves can't do it?
Click to expand...
Then it can't be done, right?  They'd explain why and be done with it.

 
The Commish said:
BowieMercs said:
As a long time Apple basher I find myself in the somewhat awkward position of siding with Apple. The government has no right to a "master key" IMHO.
Click to expand...
agreed
Click to expand...
The goverment is asking Apple to create a Master Key.

Specifically, the FBI wants us to make a new version of the iPhone operating system, circumventing several important security features, and install it on an iPhone recovered during the investigation. In the wrong hands, this software — which does not exist today — would have the potential to unlock any iPhone in someone’s physical possession.

The FBI may use different words to describe this tool, but make no mistake: Building a version of iOS that bypasses security in this way would undeniably create a backdoor. And while the government may argue that its use would be limited to this case, there is no way to guarantee such control.

 
Let the govt use its considerable computing power to decrypt what it feels needs decrypting, after it gets a warrant/court order allowing it. 

 
coyote5 said:
The goverment is asking Apple to create a Master Key.

Specifically, the FBI wants us to make a new version of the iPhone operating system, circumventing several important security features, and install it on an iPhone recovered during the investigation. In the wrong hands, this software — which does not exist today — would have the potential to unlock any iPhone in someone’s physical possession.

The FBI may use different words to describe this tool, but make no mistake: Building a version of iOS that bypasses security in this way would undeniably create a backdoor. And while the government may argue that its use would be limited to this case, there is no way to guarantee such control.
Click to expand...
go back and read my other posts...not posting it all again.  If you really care, and I suspect you don't, I said that if I were Apple, I'd tell them to pound sand on the request for a master key.  I'd give them all the data they requested though and I'd stay away from the fear/strawman line around "OMG WHAT IF IT GOT OUT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!" shtick.  I'd demand complete control over the device and it would never leave the Apple facilities.  It's not that complicated.

 
The Commish said:
go back and read my other posts...not posting it all again.  If you really care, and I suspect you don't, I said that if I were Apple, I'd tell them to pound sand on the request for a master key.  I'd give them all the data they requested though and I'd stay away from the fear/strawman line around "OMG WHAT IF IT GOT OUT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!" shtick.  I'd demand complete control over the device and it would never leave the Apple facilities.  It's not that complicated.
Click to expand...
We PROMISE this will never get out and it will only be used this once!  

Never mind I feel better now.

It's not a strawman argument, it's reality.  It doesn't matter if Apple creates the backdoor and uses it to get the info or if they provide the backdoor to the FBI.  Once the OS security has been compromised the encryption is worthless because eventually that flaw will be found and used.

 
coyote5 said:
We PROMISE this will never get out and it will only be used this once!  

Never mind I feel better now.

It's not a strawman argument, it's reality.  It doesn't matter if Apple creates the backdoor and uses it to get the info or if they provide the backdoor to the FBI.  Once the OS security has been compromised the encryption is worthless because eventually that flaw will be found and used.
Click to expand...
It's as much reality as a developer going rogue and dropping a backdoor on their own.  How do you live with the fear knowing that's possible?

By the way, the correct way to "hack" this thing is to remove the encryption all together for a period of time.  There is zero need to poke holes in it for the reasons you state.  Take it out of the picture completely, get the data, reinstate it.

 
The Commish said:
It's as much reality as a developer going rogue and dropping a backdoor on their own.  How do you live with the fear knowing that's possible?

By the way, the correct way to "hack" this thing is to remove the encryption all together for a period of time.  There is zero need to poke holes in it for the reasons you state.  Take it out of the picture completely, get the data, reinstate it.
Click to expand...
You should email that to Tim Cook.  Seems like he's been approaching this all wrong from the beginning.

 
Correct this if it's wrong but I heard some "expert" talking on the radio about how it is possible to create this based on the UDID or the unique device ID so that it can only be applied to this one device?

 
coyote5 said:
You should email that to Tim Cook.  Seems like he's been approaching this all wrong from the beginning.
Click to expand...
I don't have a problem with the way he reacted to the initial request.  I don't care too much that he politicized this though.  It wasn't necessary.  There's a way for both parties to get out of this what they want.  All he's done is ruffle the feathers of the minions.

 
Franknbeans said:
Correct this if it's wrong but I heard some "expert" talking on the radio about how it is possible to create this based on the UDID or the unique device ID so that it can only be applied to this one device?
Click to expand...
you could alter your code in a way that basically says "if it's installed on device X do this....otherwise, do this" sure.....or they could take the memory out of the phone and run the encrypted data through their encryption algorithm, decrypt it and hand it over.

 
The Commish said:
you could alter your code in a way that basically says "if it's installed on device X do this....otherwise, do this" sure.....or they could take the memory out of the phone and run the encrypted data through their encryption algorithm, decrypt it and hand it over.
Click to expand...
THIS

 
If the government has a legally compelling reason to get the decrypted data, it doesn't necessarily follow that they can dictate how the data is decrypted or who decrypts it. 

 
I know pretty much nothing about e-device security, so talks of encryption and methods of end-rounding safety measures is mostly lost on me...

That said, there seems to be 2 methods available of retrieval and this is directed solely at the creation of a new iOS method and the slippery slope of leakage argued after creation:

OS is software and not necessarily device specific, correct?  The phone in question is not a possession of Apple but of the County (don't remember which one).  If such open software were created and put on the phone in order to get the data that's hidden, once retrieved that phone does not go back to Apple.  It most likely remains in the possession of the FBI with a slight chance of return to the County.  That, I think, is where the "master key can't be controlled" argument rests.  The FBI now has the software needed to access other iOS devices and has no need to ask Apple's permission any longer, correct?

 
That one guy said:
I know pretty much nothing about e-device security, so talks of encryption and methods of end-rounding safety measures is mostly lost on me...

That said, there seems to be 2 methods available of retrieval and this is directed solely at the creation of a new iOS method and the slippery slope of leakage argued after creation:

OS is software and not necessarily device specific, correct?  The phone in question is not a possession of Apple but of the County (don't remember which one).  If such open software were created and put on the phone in order to get the data that's hidden, once retrieved that phone does not go back to Apple.  It most likely remains in the possession of the FBI with a slight chance of return to the County.  That, I think, is where the "master key can't be controlled" argument rests.  The FBI now has the software needed to access other iOS devices and has no need to ask Apple's permission any longer, correct?
Click to expand...
Well, in this case, the OS is device specific, but the rest is basically true.  It couldn't be controlled if they just turned it over which is why it's stupid they'd even ask Apple to do it.  There's no way in hell.

 
Can someone catch me up here. Is it currently an option for the GOV to hand the phone to Apple or someone else to crack, and for them to hand that back with the desired information? 

I get that the government has requested something much bigger, but I'm having trouble following what is actually an agreeable option between both parties at this point.

 
RUSF18 said:
Can someone catch me up here. Is it currently an option for the GOV to hand the phone to Apple or someone else to crack, and for them to hand that back with the desired information? 

I get that the government has requested something much bigger, but I'm having trouble following what is actually an agreeable option between both parties at this point.
Click to expand...
Best I can tell, the gov't has demanded X and Apple's told them to pound sand.  Of course there are options but they get in the way of :hophead:

 
[icon] said:
[icon] said:
1) what if someone other than the US govt uses the exploit to get your info. I look forward to your plan to  collect. 

2) what about when the US govt uses the exploit, you say "you did", they say "nuh uh". Explain how that plays out in your world. 
Click to expand...
1) what if someone other than the US govt uses the exploit to get your info. I look forward to your plan to  collect. 

2) what about when the US govt uses the exploit, you say "you did", they say "nuh uh". Explain how that plays out in your world. 
Click to expand...
Yeah, upon further review, NFW. It's a very bad precedent.

 
There is no fundamental right or high expectaion to privacy on your smart phone or any phone. The "strongest" right to privacy exisits in your domicile. That is often overcome by a warrant or appropriate probable cause. Outrage over privacy rights being taken away here are pretty outrageous considering the circumstances and the law  

The governement cannot likely force Apple at the moment to create software for them to create a backdoor for their phones. However, this will likely lead to legislation that requires such backdoor access be available on all phones with proper court approval being necessary to access them. If companies don't comply, then they shouldn't be allowed to sell their goods and all noncompliant phones in the stores seized.

Apple should work with the government here. 

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
There is no fundamental right or high expectaion to privacy on your smart phone or any phone. The "strongest" right to privacy exisits in your domicile. That is often overcome by a warrant or appropriate probable cause. Outrage over privacy rights being taken away here are pretty outrageous considering the circumstances and the law  

The governement cannot likely force Apple at the moment to create software for them to create a backdoor for their phones. However, this will likely lead to legislation that requires such backdoor access be available on all phones with proper court approval being necessary to access them. If companies don't comply, then they shouldn't be allowed to sell their goods and all noncompliant phones in the stores seized.

Apple should work with the government here. 
Click to expand...
Great idea.  I think the FISA court should hold jurisdiction over this as well.  They seem to be doing a fine job.

 
That one guy said:
I know pretty much nothing about e-device security, so talks of encryption and methods of end-rounding safety measures is mostly lost on me...

That said, there seems to be 2 methods available of retrieval and this is directed solely at the creation of a new iOS method and the slippery slope of leakage argued after creation:

OS is software and not necessarily device specific, correct?  The phone in question is not a possession of Apple but of the County (don't remember which one).  If such open software were created and put on the phone in order to get the data that's hidden, once retrieved that phone does not go back to Apple.  It most likely remains in the possession of the FBI with a slight chance of return to the County.  That, I think, is where the "master key can't be controlled" argument rests.  The FBI now has the software needed to access other iOS devices and has no need to ask Apple's permission any longer, correct?
Click to expand...
Another aspect of this is that once Apple does what the FBI asks this time there will be expectations that Apple will comply in the future when another "urgent" case pops up.  Which means that Apple will likely keep the modified iOS around so they don't have to reinvent the wheel every time thus increasing opportunity for the software to get out.    

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
There is no fundamental right or high expectaion to privacy on your smart phone or any phone. The "strongest" right to privacy exisits in your domicile. That is often overcome by a warrant or appropriate probable cause. Outrage over privacy rights being taken away here are pretty outrageous considering the circumstances and the law  

The governement cannot likely force Apple at the moment to create software for them to create a backdoor for their phones. However, this will likely lead to legislation that requires such backdoor access be available on all phones with proper court approval being necessary to access them. If companies don't comply, then they shouldn't be allowed to sell their goods and all noncompliant phones in the stores seized.

Apple should work with the government here. 
Click to expand...
How's that work?  The government can say what products can and can't be sold, even if there is a huge demand for that product?  This isn't like FDA approval for a drug.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

S
Surveillance Expansion Snuck into Budget Bill
Replies
17
Views
489
RCon
R
Arizona Ron
Apple Buys "Beats By Dre" for $3 Billion
2 3
Replies
122
Views
2K
The Ref
The Ref
tommyboy
so, nobody's cell phone is safe from spying now
Replies
4
Views
549
MC Gas Money
MC Gas Money

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 1 (members: 0, guests: 1)
Back
Top