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Approximately 70% of Republicans still don't believe Biden won legimately. (1 Viewer)

Captain Cranks

Footballguy
Poll after poll

At first we can say they were misinformed. Now it appears to be willful ignorance. "Some Trump backers have told researchers that the more they hear reports that the election was fair, the more they believe that it wasn’t."

How are we supposed to combat this? It seems no amount of evidence is going to change their mind. Does it become a psychological war where reality is irrelevant and it's who can deliver the best propaganda?

 
It’s not that surprising they feel that way.  On election night Trump had a big lead and he lost in a day or two later. When it didn’t get settled that night many people saw this coming a mile away.
 

People on the right get their news from different places than people on the left, which exacerbates the problem

 
It’s not that surprising they feel that way.  On election night Trump had a big lead and he lost in a day or two later. When it didn’t get settled that night many people saw this coming a mile away.
 

People on the right get their news from different places than people on the left, which exacerbates the problem
Because one person planted that seed months ahead of the election. He knew what would happen and told his supporters he could only lose if the election was rigged. He told them mail in ballots were ripe with fraud (they aren't). He knew mail ins would be counted after the voting machine numbers. Some states purposely did not count mail in ballots as they were received so the process took longer.

All of this has been explained by his own party. One person has done more to harm the integrity of our elections than anyone else. And it was planned.

 
I still think some of this is “I know that if I answer these polls a certain way, it will piss off the libs.” 
I agree. Reminds me of the percentage of Republicans who would say Obama was a Muslim. It was more about tribal identity than their actual beliefs. I also recall a poll a few years ago that found large numbers of Republicans were in favor of bombing targets in Agrabah and large numbers of Democrats were in favor of taking in refugees from there. Agrabah is, of course, the name of the fictional kingdom in "Aladdin".

What worries me far more than poll respondents are the numbers of elected officials who believe it and are prepared to act on that belief. I'm sure it's way less than 70%, but it only takes a small number in the right (wrong?) positions to do a lot of damage

 
Poll after poll

At first we can say they were misinformed. Now it appears to be willful ignorance. "Some Trump backers have told researchers that the more they hear reports that the election was fair, the more they believe that it wasn’t."

How are we supposed to combat this? It seems no amount of evidence is going to change their mind. Does it become a psychological war where reality is irrelevant and it's who can deliver the best propaganda?
Wait, so we have to play reverse psychology and tell them a lie so they believe the truth?  :loco:   

 
We live in a post truth society.  And there are two reasons: social media and Donald Trump.   For Trump, the truth has no normative meaning or application.  
Anybody know what % of Democrats and Independents believe the SCOTUS just passed a law to make abortion illegal?

I'm very curious, but I highly doubt we will find out.

 
Trump supporters explain why they believe the big lie

Some 35 percent of Americans—including 68 percent of Republicans—believe the Big Lie, pushed relentlessly by former President Donald Trump and amplified by conservative media, that the 2020 presidential election was stolen. They think that Trump was the true victor and that he should still be in the White House today.

I regularly host focus groups to better understand how voters are thinking about key political topics. Recently, I decided to find out why Trump 2020 voters hold so strongly to the Big Lie.

For many of Trump’s voters, the belief that the election was stolen is not a fully formed thought. It’s more of an attitude, or a tribal pose. They know something nefarious occurred but can’t easily explain how or why. What’s more, they’re mystified and sometimes angry that other people don’t feel the same.

As a woman from Wisconsin told me, “I can’t really put my finger on it, but something just doesn’t feel right.” A man from Pennsylvania said, “Something about it just didn’t seem right.” A man from Arizona said, “It didn’t smell right.”

The exact details of the story vary—was it Hugo Chávez who stole the election? Or the CIA? Or Italian defense contractors? Outlandish claims like these seem to have made this conspiracy theory more durable, not less. Regardless of plausibility, the more questions that are raised, the more mistrustful Trump voters are of the official results.

Perhaps that’s because the Big Lie has been part of their background noise for years.

Remember that Trump began spreading the notion that America’s elections were “rigged” in 2016—when he thought he would lose. Many Republicans firmly believed that the Democrats would steal an election if given the chance. When the 2020 election came and Trump did lose, his voters were ready to doubt the outcome.

Some Trump voters looked at the numbers and couldn’t make sense of them. How could so many more people have voted in 2020 than in 2016? A man from North Carolina, when asked why he thought the election was stolen, said, “There was 10 million more votes for Trump in this last election than he got in 2016. You’re telling me that [Joe] Biden got that many?”

To the extent that Big Lie believers try to explain their skepticism over millions more people voting for Biden than for Trump, they often point to relative crowd sizes at rallies. As the man from North Carolina put it, “I personally went to Trump rallies that were filling stadiums, and then Biden can’t even fill a freaking library. Like, no, it’s not true. I don’t believe it. Don’t buy it.”

Another common refrain is that the votes “flipped” in the middle of Election Night. Trump supporters went to bed thinking that their guy had won and then woke up to a different reality—which to them was startling and deeply suspicious. A woman from Georgia told me, “When I went to bed, Trump was so in the lead and then [I got] up and he’s not in the lead. I mean, that’s crazy.”

Long before Election Day, the media had warned about a “red mirage” and alerted Americans to the possibility that Trump would have a large lead on Election Night only to have it dissipate as mail-in ballots were counted. But if you were watching Fox News, you probably didn’t hear any of this. Instead, Trump, MAGA-friendly politicians, and conservative media outlets were priming voters to see a conspiracy.

Trump correctly assumed that the majority of the mail-in ballots that would be counted late at night would go to Biden. So he cast mail-in ballots as fraudulent almost by definition. The woman from Georgia told me that mail-in ballots were “a crock,” without elaborating further.

Attempts to set the record straight tend to backfire. When you tell Trump voters that the election wasn’t stolen, some of them tally that as evidence that it was stolen. A woman from Arizona told me, “I think what convinced me more that the election was fixed was how vehemently they have said it wasn’t.”

These voters aren’t bad or unintelligent people. The problem is that the Big Lie is embedded in their daily life. They hear from Trump-aligned politicians, their like-minded peers, and MAGA-friendly media outlets—and from these sources they hear the same false claims repeated ad infinitum.

Now we are at the point where to be a Republican means to believe the Big Lie. And as long as Republicans leading the party keep promoting and indulging the Big Lie, that will continue to be the case. If I’ve learned anything from my focus groups, it’s that something doesn’t have to make sense for voters to believe it’s true.

 
What worries me far more than poll respondents are the numbers of elected officials who believe it and are prepared to act on that belief. I'm sure it's way less than 70%, but it only takes a small number in the right (wrong?) positions to do a lot of damage
Doug Mastriano is the GOP candidate for PA governor. He's a Trump loyalist who pushes the election fraud lie. He's brought in Jenna Ellis as a campaign advisor. From an AP article:

If Mastriano were to win in the fall, he would shape how elections are conducted in the pivotal battleground state — where the governor appoints the secretary of state, who oversees how elections are run. Mastriano has pledged to take the extraordinary step of requiring people to “re-register” to vote — a move that flatly violates federal law, constitutional law scholars say — and decertifying certain voting machines.

 
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How are we supposed to combat this? It seems no amount of evidence is going to change their mind. Does it become a psychological war where reality is irrelevant and it's who can deliver the best propaganda?
It has been this way for a long time.  Liberals lose because we still think if we just explain it enough, reason enough that rational people will catch on.  Instead with a big dose of arrogance we hear how "condescending the liberals" are with their facts and reasoning.

 
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I have two very good friends and some family members that absolutely believe the election was rigged and Trump was the legitimate winner of the 2020 election. 

Having no proof of fraud does not dissuade them.  The argument most of them use is "there were too many irregularities that occurred" and my all-time favorite: "compare the number of lawn signs and the crowds at Trump rallies -- there was no way Biden got more votes".

When you mention that all of the recounts and audits have shown no fraud and that Trump lost all but one of his court cases and that everyone involved in overseeing the election have said it was secure they shake their head in disbelief.   Apparently all of those people are either "never Trumpers" or part of the deep state. 

We have a fair amount of FBG's that believe in the stolen election nonsense that Trump still spews to this day.

 
Poll after poll

At first we can say they were misinformed. Now it appears to be willful ignorance. "Some Trump backers have told researchers that the more they hear reports that the election was fair, the more they believe that it wasn’t."

How are we supposed to combat this? It seems no amount of evidence is going to change their mind. Does it become a psychological war where reality is irrelevant and it's who can deliver the best propaganda?
We need to make up an even crazier story like Pol Pot and Vladimir Lenin, working with these aliens that look like jellyfish, created the hoax of a stolen election to further their agenda of turning all human beings into vacuum cleaners. President Trump wasn't in on it, he was murdered by a new terrorist group called anti-Nazis, who are secretly Nazis directed by Hitler's love child, and replaced him with a robot that does the bidding of the conspiracy. Former President Trump can be resurrected and fulfill his lifelong dream of retiring from politics to run a dairy farm if true patriots like you wake up to the truth that Joe Biden won fairly. Every day you don't, you're under their spell and one step closer to becoming a vacuum cleaner.

 
Doug Mastriano is the GOP candidate for PA governor. He's a Trump loyalist who pushes the election fraud lie. He's brought in Jenna Ellis as a campaign advisor. From an  AP article:

If Mastriano were to win in the fall, he would shape how elections are conducted in the pivotal battleground state — where the governor appoints the secretary of state, who oversees how elections are run. Mastriano has pledged to take the extraordinary step of requiring people to “re-register” to vote — a move that flatly violates federal law, constitutional law scholars say — and decertifying certain voting machines.
Yep, that's very much who I was thinking of when I wrote that.

Then again, while having someone like him in charge would be a disaster, there is also lots of mischief that can be accomplished by lower-level election officials, like those county administrators in Michigan who refused to certify Biden's win in '20 (only to be thwarted by a single GOP holdout who has since retired). What happens if the Democrat wins a close statewide race, a few counties refuse to certify, and all of a sudden the GOP-dominated legislature feels empowered to step in and "clarify" the situation? Next thing we're dealing with disputed slates of electors and an 1876-style crisis

 
Doug Mastriano is the GOP candidate for PA governor. He's a Trump loyalist who pushes the election fraud lie. He's brought in Jenna Ellis as a campaign advisor. From an AP article:

If Mastriano were to win in the fall, he would shape how elections are conducted in the pivotal battleground state — where the governor appoints the secretary of state, who oversees how elections are run. Mastriano has pledged to take the extraordinary step of requiring people to “re-register” to vote — a move that flatly violates federal law, constitutional law scholars say — and decertifying certain voting machines.


Mastriano is a loon.  He took part in the January 6 insurrection, that is pretty much all you need to know.

 
Mastriano is a loon.  He took part in the January 6 insurrection, that is pretty much all you need to know.
Yup. I live in the Philly media market so I see the tv ads - both his and attack ads by Shapiro. In one ad he mentions his ability to decertify voting machines with a smirk on his face. Scary. 

 
I don't think the 70% of repubs is that surprising.  A lot of people have left the party making the far right a larger percent of the party - and those guys defy logic and common sense.

 
It’s not that surprising they feel that way.  On election night Trump had a big lead and he lost in a day or two later. When it didn’t get settled that night many people saw this coming a mile away.
 

People on the right get their news from different places than people on the left, which exacerbates the problem
I wish the right's answer to liberally biased news was to seek out less biased news. Instead, they're like, "hold my beer." 

 
We need to make up an even crazier story like Pol Pot and Vladimir Lenin, working with these aliens that look like jellyfish, created the hoax of a stolen election to further their agenda of turning all human beings into vacuum cleaners. President Trump wasn't in on it, he was murdered by a new terrorist group called anti-Nazis, who are secretly Nazis directed by Hitler's love child, and replaced him with a robot that does the bidding of the conspiracy. Former President Trump can be resurrected and fulfill his lifelong dream of retiring from politics to run a dairy farm if true patriots like you wake up to the truth that Joe Biden won fairly. Every day you don't, you're under their spell and one step closer to becoming a vacuum cleaner.
I mean, if the Dems want to fight fire with fire, they'd take to social media and plant conspiracy theories that pit Republicans against themselves. It takes a certain level of evil to go down that road, but they are baby eating satan worshippers, so what's stopping them?

 
I have two very good friends and some family members that absolutely believe the election was rigged and Trump was the legitimate winner of the 2020 election. 

Having no proof of fraud does not dissuade them.  The argument most of them use is "there were too many irregularities that occurred" and my all-time favorite: "compare the number of lawn signs and the crowds at Trump rallies -- there was no way Biden got more votes".

When you mention that all of the recounts and audits have shown no fraud and that Trump lost all but one of his court cases and that everyone involved in overseeing the election have said it was secure they shake their head in disbelief.   Apparently all of those people are either "never Trumpers" or part of the deep state. 

We have a fair amount of FBG's that believe in the stolen election nonsense that Trump still spews to this day.
What's ironic is the "#### your feelings" crowd now relies solely on feelings.

 
Everybody believes lies they want to believe are truths.

Let's discuss Russian collusion in the 2016 election next...again! :excited:
Everyone likely suffers from anchoring and adjustment bias, but eventually the preponderance of evidence becomes too much to ignore. Did it appear like there was enough smoke to suggest Trump's campaign worked systematically and directly with the Russians? Yes. But the Mueller Report was enough for me to conclude that it was not the scheme that some had thought it might be.

 
70%?  And those same Republicans deny having fascist tendencies. The Big Lie is just a set up for what's to come in 2024, when it becomes institutionalized. Since "we" can't trust elections in populous, left-leaning counties, "our" state legislatures must step in to "correct" those "corrupt" election practices even though no evidence exists to support it. SCOTUS will then bless the entire process as a states rights issue because the Constitution says so.

 
I don't think the 70% of repubs is that surprising.  A lot of people have left the party making the far right a larger percent of the party - and those guys defy logic and common sense.
A good take that I really haven’t considered.  

 
The most insightful thing about this "poll" is that 30-50% of the independents and 5-10% of Democrats agree with the 70% of Republicans.

 
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Seems like a good thread to leave this in

On Conservative Radio, Misleading Message Is Clear: ‘Democrats Cheat’

Election fraud claims from 2020 are widespread on talk radio, contributing to the belief that the midterm results cannot be trusted.

November’s midterm elections are still months away, but to many conservative commentators, the fix is already in. Democrats have cheated before, they say, and they will cheat again.

Never mind that the claims are false.

In Lafayette, La., Carol Ross, host of “The Ross Report,” questioned how Democrats could win a presidential election again after a tumultuous few years in power. “They’re going to have to cheat again,” she said. “You know that. There will be rampant cheating.”

In Greenville, S.C., Charlie James, a host on 106.3 WORD, read from a blog post arguing that “the Democrats are going to lose a majority during the midterm elections unless they’re able to cheat in a massive wide-scale way.”

And on WJFN in Virginia, Stephen K. Bannon, the erstwhile adviser to former President Donald J. Trump who was indicted for refusing to comply with subpoenas issued by the House committee investigating the Jan. 6 Capitol riot, summed it up this way: “If Democrats don’t cheat, they don’t win.”

Mr. Trump introduced the nation to a flurry of false claims about widespread voter fraud after his electoral loss in 2020. The extent of his efforts has been outlined extensively in the past couple of weeks during the hearings on the Jan. 6 Capitol riot — including a speech that day in which he falsely said Democrats changed voting laws “because they want to cheat.”

Republican politicians and cable outlets like Fox News have carried the torch for Mr. Trump’s conspiracy theories ever since. But the loudest and most consistent booster of these unfounded claims has been talk radio, where conservative hosts reduce the jumble of false voter fraud theories into a two-word mantra: “Democrats cheat.”

Mentions of “Democrats cheating” and similar ideas were raised more than 5,000 times on syndicated radio shows and local broadcasts this year, according to an analysis of data from Critical Mention, a media monitoring service. Similar ideas were mentioned a few hundred times on television shows and podcasts tracked by Critical Mention during the same period.

Radio remains perhaps the most influential conduit for right-wing thought, despite the rise of podcasts and social media. Tens of millions of people nationwide, especially older Americans and blue-collar workers, listen to it regularly. Misinformation experts warn that talk radio channels, many of which air political commentary 24 hours a day, receive far too little scrutiny compared with other mass media. Talk radio is also uniquely difficult to analyze and harder to moderate, because the on-air musings from hosts usually disappear over the airwaves in an instant.

Liberals or even most moderates never listen to it, they don’t pay attention to it, they don’t see it, they don’t hear it,” said Lewis A. Friedland, a professor who studies radio at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. “So you don’t know it exists, you don’t know how widespread and how powerful it really is.” In Wisconsin, he said, local radio stations play “extreme right-wing propaganda” five or six hours a day.

Asked about the false statements, Mr. James, the host of “The Charlie James Show,” and other conservative radio hosts and their networks defended them. Many pointed to examples of voter fraud in the past or raised conspiracy theories about the 2020 election. They said bleak polling results for the Democrats raised alarms about the integrity of the midterm elections.

“I think a host, guest or caller on talk radio might be forgiven wondering if ‘cheating’ might not be needed to win,” said Tom Tradup, the vice president of news and talk programming at the Christian and conservative Salem Radio Network.

Other hosts and radio networks declined to comment or did not respond to requests for comment.

Liberal commentators have also claimed Republicans cheated or will cheat again, but to a far lesser extent. After Stacey Abrams, the Democratic candidate for governor in Georgia, lost in 2018, Democrats raised doubts about the election’s integrity, citing voter suppression. A petition that received nearly 60,000 signatures after the election was titled: “Don’t Let Georgia Republicans Cheat and Steal the Governor’s Mansion From Stacey Abrams.”

As Ms. Abrams campaigns for the office again this year, conservative radio hosts have painted her efforts to improve voter access, particularly for historically disenfranchised groups, as a way to enable cheating.

“This is why Stacey Abrams is doing this in the state of Georgia — to extend the time, the amount of time that people can vote and drop off ballots,” said Jennifer Kerns, a guest on “The Joe Piscopo Show” and host on the All-American Radio network. “It gives them more time to — as you and I aren’t allowed to say — cheat.”

When shows like “The Joe Piscopo Show” are distributed by major syndicators like Sinclair Broadcast Group or Premiere Networks, a single falsehood or misleading claim can quickly reach audiences from coast to coast.

Mike Gallagher said on his radio show recently that “the only way the Democrats can expect to win again is if they cheat.” The show was syndicated through the Salem Radio Network, allowing it to reach hundreds of markets from Sacramento, Calif., to Salisbury, Md.

Many of the misleading claims focused on measures to improve voter access during the 2020 presidential election as Covid-19 swept the country. Conservative commentators said attempts to expand vote-by-mail options or ballot drop-off locations were tantamount to cheating or directly enabled cheating.

Some radio networks cracked down on election fraud claims after the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol. Cumulus Media, which owns and operates 406 radio stations, released a memo at the time saying hosts could not “dog-whistle talk about ‘stolen elections’” on its network. Over a year later, several shows distributed through Westwood One, its syndication arm, have aired claims that Democrats cheated or will cheat in the midterms.

Michael Knowles, a radio and podcast host syndicated through Westwood One, gave a stark warning about the midterm elections. “They’re just going to try to cheat and steal the election,” he said. “That’s what they’re going to try to do. You’re seeing it right now.”

Lars Larson, another radio host syndicated to over 100 stations through Westwood One, warned that the increasing popularity of mail-in voting meant “Democrats nearly always win — or, at least, they cheat to a win.”

After Mr. Trump lost his re-election bid, many false attacks focused on Dominion Voting Systems, an election technology company falsely accused of tampering with election results. Mentions of the company plummeted after January 2021, as the company filed a lawsuit accusing several groups, including Fox News, of advancing lies that devastated its reputation and business. But radio hosts continued implying that Democrats would cheat by expanding mail-in voting or conducting so-called ballot harvesting, a law in many states allowing third parties to collect and return ballots.

You don’t get as specific as a particular company so they can’t come back and sue you,” said Jerry Del Colliano, a professor at New York University and publisher of Inside Music Media. He added that the shift in strategy toward vaguer cheating claims “allows them to continue with this misinformation that their audience just loves” without risking serious consequences from companies or their syndicators.

That leaves many hosts walking the line between detailing specific claims of stolen elections and rankling advertisers or executives.

"I hesitate to talk about it,” the actor Joe Piscopo said on his radio show. “You can’t say ‘election,’ and then you can’t say the word ‘fraud’ right after that. But you can say it was bought, there were shenanigans. I have catchphrases, like ‘shenanigans’ or ‘we’re not sure what happened.’”

When a listener called into “The Lars Larson Show” to suggest that Republicans could cheat to keep up with Democratic cheating, Mr. Larson expressed mixed feelings.

“My gut says yes to that,” he replied. “My brain says no.”

In an interview, Mr. Larson pointed to numerous voter fraud claims from the 2020 election, including a debunked report that nearly 20,000 votes were received late in Arizona. He added that the lack of proof was expected because “with election fraud, especially vote-by-mail, you’ll never have proof.”

Unlike television or even podcasts, radio welcomes live listener input. That can give anyone a moment in the national spotlight for off-the-cuff remarks and build the appearance of consensus for election conspiracy theories. Some of the strongest claims of voter fraud came from callers, with hosts often agreeing with their claims.

There’s no penalty for having these people on the air,” Mr. Friedland at the University of Wisconsin-Madison said of the callers. “In fact, there’s a benefit. Your business does better if you can skirt the extremes, because that gets more people calling in and listening.”

As the midterms draw near, commentators are also contending with the unintended consequences of their cheating claims.

Callers repeatedly expressed doubts about voting at all, falsely claiming that elections are so rigged by Democrats that their votes no longer matter. In response, radio hosts have implored Republicans to vote in even larger numbers — so much so that a supposed Democratic cheat would prove ineffective.

I’ll tell you what’s happened — and I give the Democrats a lot of credit for this,” said Michael Berry, a radio host based in Houston, “is they have convinced a lot of people on our side that it’s not worth it to vote.”

 
Everybody believes lies they want to believe are truths.

Let's discuss Russian collusion in the 2016 election next...again! :excited:
Well, there was proven Russian interference. And proven obstruction of the investigation that was only not utilized for charges due to that party being the current President.

 

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