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Arguments over "ownership of tired politcal cliches (1 Viewer)

D

Ditkaless Wonders

Footballguy
So last night I tuned in for a few minutes to watch a fairly hot for her age wannabe first lady start slinging political clichés.  Her speech was so stock, so pedestrian, so tired that it could have been written by a 12 year old or knocked off in improve by a comedian as the standard speech.  Now I am hearing that the clichés may be the property of the last political party to have used them on a particular national stage.  I am fascinated.

So apparently my "word is my bond" now belongs to the Democrats.  Perhaps we can have fun identifying the other clichés and assigning ownership. So who owns:

American Dream

Pull yourself up by your bootstraps

Honest as the day is long

I can see Russia from my house

Change

Vision

Faith

I never had sex with that woman

Think of the children

Hardworking disappearing middle class

Experience to lead

Sound judgment

Tempered with compassion

BTW and for the record I can not vote for either of the candidates of the two major parties.  I believe both parties deliberately picked not the candidate they thought best, but the one they thought would be the most offensive and irritating to the opposition.  We are fractured beyond all reason at this point.

 
The current furor in some quarters about this topic has less to do with "ownership of cliches" and more to do with straight plagiarism: Key Passages 

I don't think it is going to make a difference to a meaningful number of likely Trump voters because what is another piece of dishonesty on the pile? It is a very big pile too.

 
RedmondLonghorn said:
The current furor in some quarters about this topic has less to do with "ownership of cliches" and more to do with straight plagiarism: Key Passages 

I don't think it is going to make a difference to a meaningful number of likely Trump voters because what is another piece of dishonesty on the pile? It is a very big pile too.
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That is a strong correlation, no question.

Me, I find humor in the fact that these folks have speech writers to churn out clichés, platitudes, and formulaic drivel.  They all sound exactly alike to me, that was my point.  If she or hers plagiarized, as it looks that they did, that is not something I would defend or seek to explain away.  She and the Donald can take their lumps, well deserved in my mind.  I would be mortified to wake up and find him President.  I would be fine waking up and finding her presentinbed. 

 
Kind of misconstrued what happened. It wasn't the use of a certain word or phrase it was using them in the same order to say he same thing that makes it plagiarism.

Now we all know she didn't write it andI'm a political junkie and I didn't recognize it right away so why would I expect her to? Since intent counts i find her not guilty.

I think it's remarkable when in a night where so many offensive and divisive things were said this tempest in a tea pot is what the media is focusing on. 

 
NCCommish said:
Kind of misconstrued what happened. It wasn't the use of a certain word or phrase it was using them in the same order to say he same thing that makes it plagiarism.

Now we all know she didn't write it andI'm a political junkie and I didn't recognize it right away so why would I expect her to? Since intent counts i find her not guilty.

I think it's remarkable when in a night where so many offensive and divisive things were said this tempest in a tea pot is what the media is focusing on. 
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Planned deflection?

Bill was good at this tactic

 
Rove! said:
Planned deflection?

Bill was good at this tactic
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I don't think these guys are on that level. I don't understand why they insist on hanging this on her. No one really thinks she wrote it. Fire the speech guy, admit the mistake and move on. Over done but now it's a thing. 

 
NCCommish said:
I don't think these guys are on that level. I don't understand why they insist on hanging this on her. No one really thinks she wrote it. Fire the speech guy, admit the mistake and move on. Over done but now it's a thing. 
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I think the Clinton machine needed to discredit Mrs. Trump, to describe her as dishonest on her very first public spotlight as a possible first lady.  This presidential campaign is going to get nasty - like Carl Rove on steroids. Sadly this type of campaign might be more Trump's home field than Hillary. 

 
NCCommish said:
Kind of misconstrued what happened. It wasn't the use of a certain word or phrase it was using them in the same order to say he same thing that makes it plagiarism.

Now we all know she didn't write it andI'm a political junkie and I didn't recognize it right away so why would I expect her to? Since intent counts i find her not guilty.

I think it's remarkable when in a night where so many offensive and divisive things were said this tempest in a tea pot is what the media is focusing on. 
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To me plagiarism is about stealing intellectual content and passing it off as one's own.  The sequence of words has always been proof of the intent, but is not the heart of the matter.  My point, poorly made, was that there was no unique intellectual content when Michelle Obama spouted the exact speech we knew she would give because it was long since cliché, and there was no  stealing here since the common platitude has long since been in the public realm, the public domain.  Was it stupid, lazy, an indication of intellectual deficiencies to take it word for word? Yes.  Is that what we would call plagiarism in other walks? Yes, but in this realm I find there to be no content, there was nothing to steal and to pass off.  I will feel the same way when the nominees give their take on the Horatio Alger story, another tired platitude that must be played.  Not plagiarism, rather theater of the absurd.

I will not pursue my poor thread as it did not quite capture where I intended to go.  I expressed matters poorly, and I perceive danger of appearing to be an apologist for a candidate that I believe would seriously damage our country, something I do not wish to be associated with.  I just found the outrage, or kerfuffle, view it as you will, over this issue to be manufactured in a very real sense if one understands what we wish to protect when we condemn plagiarism.  

 
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It is scary to me that Trump speechwriters are both: 

1) so lazy that they followed that much of a template & then word-for-word phrases & worse ...

2) so ####### stupid that they thought no one would notice.

I cannot stand Hillary and believe she is evil incarnate.  But I think a Trump administration worries me more.  This is BY FAR the worst choice for president we have ever had in my life time.  

 
Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
I think the Clinton machine needed to discredit Mrs. Trump, to describe her as dishonest on her very first public spotlight as a possible first lady.  This presidential campaign is going to get nasty - like Carl Rove on steroids. Sadly this type of campaign might be more Trump's home field than Hillary. 
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Did they write the speech? Dis they then completely flub the aftermath? No they didn't. This is fully on the Trump campaign. Clintons just sitting back laughing they didn't have to do squat.

 
NCCommish said:
Did they write the speech? Dis they then completely flub the aftermath? No they didn't. This is fully on the Trump campaign. Clintons just sitting back laughing they didn't have to do squat.
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Yes it was an unforced error, and the Clinton machine quickly took advantage of it. Also Carl Rove and the brother of Karl Rove and he is twice as bad.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
To me plagiarism is about stealing intellectual content and passing it off as one's own.  The sequence of words has always been proof of the intent, but is not the heart of the matter.  My point, poorly made, was that there was no unique intellectual content when Michelle Obama spouted the exact speech we knew she would give because it was long since cliché, and there was no  stealing here since the common platitude has long since been in the public realm, the public domain.  Was it stupid, lazy, an indication of intellectual deficiencies to take it word for word? Yes.  Is that what we would call plagiarism in other walks? Yes, but in this realm I find there to be no content, there was nothing to steal and to pass off.  I will feel the same way when the nominees give their take on the Horatio Alger story, another tired platitude that must be played.  Not plagiarism, rather theater of the absurd.

I will not pursue my poor thread as it did not quite capture where I intended to go.  I expressed matters poorly, and I perceive danger of appearing to be an apologist for a candidate that I believe would seriously damage our country, something I do not wish to be associated with.  I just found the outrage, or kerfuffle, view it as you will, over this issue to be manufactured in a very real sense if one understands what we wish to protect when we condemn plagiarism.  
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I agree in the stupidity of it but for a different reason. And I would suggest that we can't subjectively decide the "value" of the the words plagiarized. You and I might value them quite differently. Although your point is taken that a lot of these speeches are just clichés strung together. Can't we say that about a lot of stuff in many ways ?

 
Joy and glee here,watching this all unfold. Some of the actions thus far have been Shakespearean and there's a lot more to unfold. Infinitely more entertaining than the evenings  planned pep really..

So much irony.

 
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NCCommish said:
I agree in the stupidity of it but for a different reason. And I would suggest that we can't subjectively decide the "value" of the the words plagiarized. You and I might value them quite differently. Although your point is taken that a lot of these speeches are just clichés strung together. Can't we say that about a lot of stuff in many ways ?
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We can.

 
NCCommish said:
Seems to me Twitter users led the immediate charge. Not real sure they were affiliated with the campaign.
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Wouldn't it be diabolical if Clinton supporters who were unaffiliated with the official campaign started the twitter frenzy? 

Do you think Hillary has a room full of people totally devoted to social media?

Do you think such people could start something like this?  

 
Flying Spaghetti Monster said:
I think the Clinton machine needed to discredit Mrs. Trump, to describe her as dishonest on her very first public spotlight as a possible first lady.  This presidential campaign is going to get nasty - like Carl Rove on steroids. Sadly this type of campaign might be more Trump's home field than Hillary. 
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No. Mrs. Trump is barely a public figure and I guess really does not want to be in this position. Any attack on her from the Clinton campaign will seem cruel and bullying. Just say nothing

 
I'm not sure this is "ownership of cliches" so much as an issue of blatant plagiarism.  Nobody owns the phrase "the worst" but if I wrote into a speech "it was the best of times, it was the worst of times" and claimed to have written it myself, I'd be viewed as an idiot and a liar.

 
We need to take America back for .                         [insert descriptor of whatever group you happen to be speaking in front of]

I feel your pain.

Mission Accomplished.

Yer doing a helluva job.

What difference could it possibly make, anyway?

We have to pass this bill to find out what's in it.

 
 "He [my father] taught me .... how to work hard, how to be respectful of others, how to play a guitar, how your word is your bond...".

- 2001 obituary 

 
Binky The Doormat said:
I cannot stand Hillary and believe she is evil incarnate.  But I think a Trump administration worries me more.  This is BY FAR the worst choice for president we have ever had in my life time.  
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I have voted Republican in every presidential election I've voted in (starting in 2000).

I would have voted for every Democrat in those elections over Trump.  He is that bad.

However, I will not be voting for Hillary this election.  She is that bad.

Congrats DNC & RNC, you have presented me with two un-electable candidates for the first time possibly in history.

Gary Johnson 2016.

 
Shows you how crazy Republicans are that they blame Clinton for Mrs Trump plagiarizing a speech.  Is there anything they won't blame on Clinton?

 
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