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Arizona passes nation's toughest immigration law (1 Viewer)

What's the legal basis for ACLU's beef?
Might as well answer this myself, dug this up:http://www.acluaz.org/ACLU-AZ%20Section%20...d%204-14-10.pdf

Will :goodposting: for later.

ETA: initial skim shows a few 'this is unnecessary because there's already a federal law for it' things, but some of their items of dispute are interesting angles.
The Constitution grants the federal government exclusive power to regulate our borders and, with very few exceptions, states are not free to create their own laws regulating immigration. Page 3. I've heard this in the past with other local laws, but am not certain if this has been used strike any of them down.
 
You guys do realize this isn't about the rights of the immigrants as much as its about the rights of AMERICANS? Why should an American have to show any proof of his Americaness for just walking down the street or theoretically, sitting in his own living room?
For the same reasons Americans are asked to walk through metal detectors and wait in security lines at airports.Arizonan is under siege from drug cartels and human traffickers, the Federal govt. isn't doing anything so AZ lawmakers are. Every week there are innocent Arizonans getting killed...not too mention the strain illegals put on our local govt. finances.

Jan Brewer is doing a heck of a job here.
Wow. And you once considered yourself a moderate?
I've always been issue to issue. As I get older the more fiscally conservative I become. Definitely a moderate though.
Nothing moderate about this bill. When it's found unconstitutional will you admit that you're siding with the right wing fringe on this one?
I didn't say the bill was moderate, just that I consider myself a moderate.One of the most annoying attributes of most American voters is that they don't think for themselves...they just tote the party line on every issue. It's actually a very big problem and has a deleterious effect on our political process.

Funny, American's want to ##### about politicians, but they don't realize they are the ones empowering the politicians.

When Americans start thinking for themselves, this country MIGHT take a turn for the better, until then it will be more of the same.

/rant

 
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One of the most annoying attributes of most American voters is that they don't think for themselves...they just tote the party line on every issue. It's actually a very big problem and his a deleterious effect on our political process. Funny, American's want to ##### about politicians, but they don't realize they are the ones empowering the politicians.When Americans start thinking for themselves, this country MIGHT take a turn for the better, until then it will be more of the same./rant
None of which has any bearing on the discussion of why you think it makes sense to pass a bill that infringes on constitutional rights.
 
Yes, seriously. The nickname for Italian-Americans from the early 20th century was "wops", meaning "without papers." Most of them had to come to Ellis Island, anyhow, like the Jews and Poles, but the point is NONE of these had any real papers, neither did the Hungarians or Chinese or Japanese, etc. But that was when we simply processed everyone and let them in. We were a far more vibrant country in those days, full of a vitality that I think we partially lack today. I would also note that the types of complaints LHUCKS and other people here make about criminal activity by illegals was made back then just as loudly, along with concerns about the cost to our infrastructure, etc. It was an insipid argument then, and its one now as well. If Arizona attempts to enforce this law, mark my words, it will be cutting its own throat.
You're comparing Chinese immigrants to the violent human traffickers and the bordertown drug cartels that are gunning down innocent Americans...okay.Further, Arizona is in the middle of its worst budget crisis in its history unlike most of the cities you just cited.And even further, most of the groups you cited were migrating when entitlements were NOT out of control, unlike now.Let me know when you plan on making a reasonable argument/comparisons.
If your reason for violating the constitution is because entitlements are out of control.....then fix the problem with out of control entitlements.If your reason for violating the constitution is because we have a budget crisis....then solve the budget crisis.If your reason for violating the constitution is because of drug cartels.....then legalize drugs and put an end to our ridiculously misguided drug war.Etc.Attack the root causes. Don't attack the constitution.
 
One of the most annoying attributes of most American voters is that they don't think for themselves...they just tote the party line on every issue. It's actually a very big problem and his a deleterious effect on our political process. Funny, American's want to ##### about politicians, but they don't realize they are the ones empowering the politicians.When Americans start thinking for themselves, this country MIGHT take a turn for the better, until then it will be more of the same./rant
None of which has any bearing on the discussion of why you think it makes sense to pass a bill that infringes on constitutional rights.
People's rights have been infringed on since the beginning of this country...the question has always been when does it make sense and to what length.
 
Yes, seriously. The nickname for Italian-Americans from the early 20th century was "wops", meaning "without papers." Most of them had to come to Ellis Island, anyhow, like the Jews and Poles, but the point is NONE of these had any real papers, neither did the Hungarians or Chinese or Japanese, etc. But that was when we simply processed everyone and let them in. We were a far more vibrant country in those days, full of a vitality that I think we partially lack today. I would also note that the types of complaints LHUCKS and other people here make about criminal activity by illegals was made back then just as loudly, along with concerns about the cost to our infrastructure, etc. It was an insipid argument then, and its one now as well. If Arizona attempts to enforce this law, mark my words, it will be cutting its own throat.
You're comparing Chinese immigrants to the violent human traffickers and the bordertown drug cartels that are gunning down innocent Americans...okay.Further, Arizona is in the middle of its worst budget crisis in its history unlike most of the cities you just cited.And even further, most of the groups you cited were migrating when entitlements were NOT out of control, unlike now.Let me know when you plan on making a reasonable argument/comparisons.
If your reason for violating the constitution is because entitlements are out of control.....then fix the problem with out of control entitlements.If your reason for violating the constitution is because we have a budget crisis....then solve the budget crisis.If your reason for violating the constitution is because of drug cartels.....then legalize drugs and put an end to our ridiculously misguided drug war.Etc.Attack the root causes. Don't attack the constitution.
The problem here is the Federal govt. is responsible for all of that, not Arizona.Brewer stated this and so did Obama (in the case of border violence and illegals violence)People don't realize that our hands are tied as a state...all they see is the law in a vacuum and conjure up images of Nazi German when nothing could be further from the truth.
 
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One of the most annoying attributes of most American voters is that they don't think for themselves...they just tote the party line on every issue. It's actually a very big problem and his a deleterious effect on our political process. Funny, American's want to ##### about politicians, but they don't realize they are the ones empowering the politicians.When Americans start thinking for themselves, this country MIGHT take a turn for the better, until then it will be more of the same./rant
None of which has any bearing on the discussion of why you think it makes sense to pass a bill that infringes on constitutional rights.
People's rights have been infringed on since the beginning of this country...the question has always been when does it make sense and to what length.
It never makes sense to do so
 
One of the most annoying attributes of most American voters is that they don't think for themselves...they just tote the party line on every issue. It's actually a very big problem and his a deleterious effect on our political process. Funny, American's want to ##### about politicians, but they don't realize they are the ones empowering the politicians.When Americans start thinking for themselves, this country MIGHT take a turn for the better, until then it will be more of the same./rant
None of which has any bearing on the discussion of why you think it makes sense to pass a bill that infringes on constitutional rights.
People's rights have been infringed on since the beginning of this country...the question has always been when does it make sense and to what length.
It never makes sense to do so
You might not want to use the word never there chief...several of your rights have been curtailed since the birth of this nation.gun ownership, taxes, any law basically.....these are all limitations to your rights.
 
You might not want to use the word never there chief...several of your rights have been curtailed since the birth of this nation.gun ownership, taxes, any law basically.....these are all limitations to your rights.
Agreed. And I am against all of them......chief.
 
Who can tell me what percentage of Phoenix home break-ins are made by illegal aliens?Anyone?
Can you tell me what percentage of homes are cleaned by illegal aliens?If these people didn't find work here, they wouldn't cross the border. This is hypocrisy at its finest. We all enjoy the fruits of cheap labor in this country and would likewise grouse if the price of EVERYTHING went up, which it would.I wish we could all just admit we hate brown people and be done with it instead of these manufactured bits of xenophobia we craft like home break in statistics. Who cares who breaks into your house?
 
Who can tell me what percentage of Phoenix home break-ins are made by illegal aliens?Anyone?
Can you tell me what percentage of homes are cleaned by illegal aliens?If these people didn't find work here, they wouldn't cross the border. This is hypocrisy at its finest. We all enjoy the fruits of cheap labor in this country and would likewise grouse if the price of EVERYTHING went up, which it would.I wish we could all just admit we hate brown people and be done with it instead of these manufactured bits of xenophobia we craft like home break in statistics. Who cares who breaks into your house?
Yeah anyone who doesn't want illegals here "hates brown people"! Give me a break. I'm all for this bill and am the furthest thing from a racist you will find.
 
Who can tell me what percentage of Phoenix home break-ins are made by illegal aliens?Anyone?
Can you tell me what percentage of homes are cleaned by illegal aliens?
what?
If these people didn't find work here, they wouldn't cross the border. This is hypocrisy at its finest. We all enjoy the fruits of cheap labor in this country and would likewise grouse if the price of EVERYTHING went up, which it would.
There is some truth to this.
I wish we could all just admit we hate brown people and be done with it instead of these manufactured bits of xenophobia we craft like home break in statistics. Who cares who breaks into your house?
A) Nobody is crafting anythingB) This isn't about race, nobody "hates brown people."C) Arizonans care about the escalating violent crimes that are committed in their state by non-Americans...you may not care in Minnesota, but we have a real problem down here and our law enforcement requires measures to combat the problem. If the Federal govt. isn't going to do anything, we have to.
 
Who can tell me what percentage of Phoenix home break-ins are made by illegal aliens?Anyone?
Can you tell me what percentage of homes are cleaned by illegal aliens?If these people didn't find work here, they wouldn't cross the border. This is hypocrisy at its finest. We all enjoy the fruits of cheap labor in this country and would likewise grouse if the price of EVERYTHING went up, which it would.I wish we could all just admit we hate brown people and be done with it instead of these manufactured bits of xenophobia we craft like home break in statistics. Who cares who breaks into your house?
Yeah anyone who doesn't want illegals here "hates brown people"! Give me a break. I'm all for this bill and am the furthest thing from a racist you will find.
So you support illegal search and siezures against brown people?
 
Who can tell me what percentage of Phoenix home break-ins are made by illegal aliens?Anyone?
Can you tell me what percentage of homes are cleaned by illegal aliens?If these people didn't find work here, they wouldn't cross the border. This is hypocrisy at its finest. We all enjoy the fruits of cheap labor in this country and would likewise grouse if the price of EVERYTHING went up, which it would.I wish we could all just admit we hate brown people and be done with it instead of these manufactured bits of xenophobia we craft like home break in statistics. Who cares who breaks into your house?
Yeah anyone who doesn't want illegals here "hates brown people"! Give me a break. I'm all for this bill and am the furthest thing from a racist you will find.
So you support illegal search and siezures against brown people?
LOL. Your hyperbole is great fun. Please, keep it up.
 
Who can tell me what percentage of Phoenix home break-ins are made by illegal aliens?Anyone?
Can you tell me what percentage of homes are cleaned by illegal aliens?If these people didn't find work here, they wouldn't cross the border. This is hypocrisy at its finest. We all enjoy the fruits of cheap labor in this country and would likewise grouse if the price of EVERYTHING went up, which it would.I wish we could all just admit we hate brown people and be done with it instead of these manufactured bits of xenophobia we craft like home break in statistics. Who cares who breaks into your house?
Yeah anyone who doesn't want illegals here "hates brown people"! Give me a break. I'm all for this bill and am the furthest thing from a racist you will find.
He's fishing or he's an idiot.Anybody who lives in Arizona knows that Mexican Americans and Whites have always coexisted peacefully. Arizonans actually have a respect for the work ethic of Mexican Americans.
 
Who can tell me what percentage of Phoenix home break-ins are made by illegal aliens?Anyone?
Can you tell me what percentage of homes are cleaned by illegal aliens?If these people didn't find work here, they wouldn't cross the border. This is hypocrisy at its finest. We all enjoy the fruits of cheap labor in this country and would likewise grouse if the price of EVERYTHING went up, which it would.I wish we could all just admit we hate brown people and be done with it instead of these manufactured bits of xenophobia we craft like home break in statistics. Who cares who breaks into your house?
Yeah anyone who doesn't want illegals here "hates brown people"! Give me a break. I'm all for this bill and am the furthest thing from a racist you will find.
So you support illegal search and siezures against brown people?
No, we support searches of those suspected to be illegal aliens.
 
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C) Arizonans care about the escalating violent crimes that are committed in their state by non-Americans...you may not care in Minnesota, but we have a real problem down here and our law enforcement requires measures to combat the problem. If the Federal govt. isn't going to do anything, we have to.
I live in Denver. Huge immigrant population. Big time gang problem with Mexicans. This bill sucks.
 
Who can tell me what percentage of Phoenix home break-ins are made by illegal aliens?Anyone?
Can you tell me what percentage of homes are cleaned by illegal aliens?If these people didn't find work here, they wouldn't cross the border. This is hypocrisy at its finest. We all enjoy the fruits of cheap labor in this country and would likewise grouse if the price of EVERYTHING went up, which it would.I wish we could all just admit we hate brown people and be done with it instead of these manufactured bits of xenophobia we craft like home break in statistics. Who cares who breaks into your house?
Yeah anyone who doesn't want illegals here "hates brown people"! Give me a break. I'm all for this bill and am the furthest thing from a racist you will find.
I think we take far less issue with illegals from Western Europe in this country that with these Mexicans. Its a reasonable distinction, you are enduring a transition in language and culture, a little xenophobia is natural I think, but ultimately pointless and counterproductive. I'm not calling you a racist Card, but search yourself, if these were a bunch of people from Wales showing up in Tempe, would you have anywhere near the problem you do now?
 
C) Arizonans care about the escalating violent crimes that are committed in their state by non-Americans...you may not care in Minnesota, but we have a real problem down here and our law enforcement requires measures to combat the problem. If the Federal govt. isn't going to do anything, we have to.
I live in Denver. Huge immigrant population. Big time gang problem with Mexicans. This bill sucks.
Denver doesn't have our problems...not even close. We're a border state.
 
He's fishing or he's an idiot.Anybody who lives in Arizona knows that Mexican Americans and Whites have always coexisted peacefully. Arizonans actually have a respect for the work ethic of Mexican Americans.
Oh....calling me an idiot are you???Good thing I am not like you.
 
I'm not calling you a racist Card, but search yourself, if these were a bunch of people from Wales showing up in Tempe, would you have anywhere near the problem you do now?
If they were committing violent crimes, of course.If they were contributing to a growing budget problem, of course.This isn't about racism.
 
I think we take far less issue with illegals from Western Europe in this country that with these Mexicans. Its a reasonable distinction, you are enduring a transition in language and culture, a little xenophobia is natural I think, but ultimately pointless and counterproductive. I'm not calling you a racist Card, but search yourself, if these were a bunch of people from Wales showing up in Tempe, would you have anywhere near the problem you do now?
That's a fair question. If they were committing the same crimes then I'd have to "assume" I'd feel the same way. But it is a good question. As a father of 2 children who are half Salvadorian (their mother just became a citizen within the past year) and as a man who has been in a 3 year relationship with a Mexican woman I do believe this is a good bill.
 
C) Arizonans care about the escalating violent crimes that are committed in their state by non-Americans...you may not care in Minnesota, but we have a real problem down here and our law enforcement requires measures to combat the problem. If the Federal govt. isn't going to do anything, we have to.
I live in Denver. Huge immigrant population. Big time gang problem with Mexicans. This bill sucks.
Denver doesn't have our problems...not even close. We're a border state.
You inferred I was an idiot earlier......I am just going to flat out call you one now.Oh, yeah, I also grew up in western Idaho. You know....where a sizable portion of the population is illegal? But I wouldn't expect you to know anything.
 
Who can tell me what percentage of Phoenix home break-ins are made by illegal aliens?

Anyone?
Can you tell me what percentage of homes are cleaned by illegal aliens?If these people didn't find work here, they wouldn't cross the border. This is hypocrisy at its finest. We all enjoy the fruits of cheap labor in this country and would likewise grouse if the price of EVERYTHING went up, which it would.

I wish we could all just admit we hate brown people and be done with it instead of these manufactured bits of xenophobia we craft like home break in statistics. Who cares who breaks into your house?
Yeah anyone who doesn't want illegals here "hates brown people"! Give me a break. I'm all for this bill and am the furthest thing from a racist you will find.
So you support illegal search and siezures against brown people?
No, we support searches of those suspected to be illegal aliens.
Unpack this?

And for the record, I'm all for a strong immigration system here, and I think everyone would enjoy better protections if there were contingencies made for seasonal migration to the states to do the work that :

1. they want to do

2. we need done

But just because Jose Torres lives on the border and might well be a 5th generation real deal, nice and legal American citizen, who, just for kicks, can trace his family roots in Arizona back another few generations should not be subjected to a search because he is "suspected".

But tell us what makes that guy a suspect?

 
Oh, yeah, I also grew up in western Idaho. You know....where a sizable portion of the population is illegal? But I wouldn't expect you to know anything.
Please don't compare Idaho to Arizona...let's try to keep this intellectually honest.
 
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But just because Jose Torres lives on the border and might well be a 5th generation real deal, nice and legal American citizen, who, just for kicks, can trace his family roots in Arizona back another few generations should not be subjected to a search because he is "suspected". But tell us what makes that guy a suspect?
The intent of this law and the police force is not to target just any person, there are specific indicators that the police force will be trained on and that they will target.
 
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But just because Jose Torres lives on the border and might well be a 5th generation real deal, nice and legal American citizen, who, just for kicks, can trace his family roots in Arizona back another few generations should not be subjected to a search because he is "suspected". But tell us what makes that guy a suspect?
The intent of this law and the police force is not to target just any person, there are specific indicators that the police force will be trained on and that they will target.
Enlighten us with your infinite wisdom.
 
Probably the most absurd aspect of this law is the notion, as stated by LHUCKS and others here, that it must be done because the state of Arizona can no longer afford illegal immigrants. Its absurd because, given the extra duties required by policemen (most of whom, according to newspapers, are opposed to the law) the lawsuits from Latino citizens who feel their rights are being infringed, the lawsuits from anti-immigrant groups (provided for in the law) who feel the law is not being correctly enforced, and anyone can see how this bill will end up costing Arizona so much more money which it cannot afford.

 
Probably the most absurd aspect of this law is the notion, as stated by LHUCKS and others here, that it must be done because the state of Arizona can no longer afford illegal immigrants. Its absurd because, given the extra duties required by policemen (most of whom, according to newspapers, are opposed to the law) the lawsuits from Latino citizens who feel their rights are being infringed, the lawsuits from anti-immigrant groups (provided for in the law) who feel the law is not being correctly enforced, and anyone can see how this bill will end up costing Arizona so much more money which it cannot afford.
Not really. The vast majority of the money will come from the Federal budget.And protecting Arizonans from drug cartels is worth every penny.
 
Oh, yeah, I also grew up in western Idaho. You know....where a sizable portion of the population is illegal? But I wouldn't expect you to know anything.
Please don't compare Idaho to Arizona.
Oh???? Why not?
Because their problems are nowhere near similar.
Oh really? And you know that how???Don't spout off about crap you know nothing about.......oh.....wait.....I forgot who I was talking to.Freaking police chiefs get executed in western Idaho for simply stating they are going to crack down on Mexican gangs! Needless to say, none of them ever say that anymore.
 
Probably the most absurd aspect of this law is the notion, as stated by LHUCKS and others here, that it must be done because the state of Arizona can no longer afford illegal immigrants. Its absurd because, given the extra duties required by policemen (most of whom, according to newspapers, are opposed to the law) the lawsuits from Latino citizens who feel their rights are being infringed, the lawsuits from anti-immigrant groups (provided for in the law) who feel the law is not being correctly enforced, and anyone can see how this bill will end up costing Arizona so much more money which it cannot afford.
Not really. The vast majority of the money will come from the Federal budget.And protecting Arizonans from drug cartels is worth every penny.
Oh....awesome! So people in other states get to support you due to a state resolution??? Where do I sign up?
 
The Support Our Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act (known mainly as SB 1070) requires that police officers determine the immigration status of a person "where reasonable suspicion exists" that the person is in the country illegally. The officer must then verify the suspect's immigration status with the federal government.

As many have noted, the most obvious (and provocative) question raised by this provision is, "What do illegal immigrants look like?" They're probably Hispanic, but so are 30 percent of Arizona's residents. So unless the law authorizes the stopping and questioning of any person who looks darker than the average Caucasian, there needs to be some other criteria that set apart illegal aliens from lawful residents.

But so far, no one has come up with any. When asked what other factors an officer might use to single out an unlawful resident, Brewer replied, "We have to trust our law enforcement."

That's not a constitutionally acceptable answer. For one thing, the Constitution's equal protection clause forbids the government from differentiating between anyone in the United States -- including illegal aliens -- on the basis of race. The new law, on its face, doesn't make racial distinctions, but its supporters haven't articulated any other grounds for suspecting that someone is an unlawful resident. It is, therefore, vulnerable to the argument that it essentially criminalizes walking while Hispanic.

The failure to adequately define "reasonable suspicion" also subjects the law to what might be called the "Papers, please" line of attack. Under the Fourth Amendment, police officers can't simply stop people on the street and force them to answer questions. Instead, policemen can generally detain people only if there are specific and objective facts that suggest criminal activity is afoot.

For many crimes -- say, drug-dealing -- there may well be reliable and concrete factors that would alert an officer to possible illegality. But unlawful presence in the United States is a crime of status. Short of seeing someone sneak over the border, what specific, objective facts would suggest to an officer that a person is in the country unlawfully?

The law seems to require that officers demand documentation from suspected aliens based on mere hunches -- a clear violation of the Constitution.

There are other problems. Even assuming that an officer reasonably suspects that a person is in the country illegally, what happens next? The law doesn't specify. If a person -- for example, a park jogger -- lacks what the officer regards as proper identification, is the officer supposed to arrest the person? Or detain him or her while checking the person's immigration status with the federal government? Do Arizonans need to worry about being held in the back of a squad car because they forgot to bring their license with them on a quick trip to the grocery store?

 
Probably the most absurd aspect of this law is the notion, as stated by LHUCKS and others here, that it must be done because the state of Arizona can no longer afford illegal immigrants. Its absurd because, given the extra duties required by policemen (most of whom, according to newspapers, are opposed to the law) the lawsuits from Latino citizens who feel their rights are being infringed, the lawsuits from anti-immigrant groups (provided for in the law) who feel the law is not being correctly enforced, and anyone can see how this bill will end up costing Arizona so much more money which it cannot afford.
Not really. The vast majority of the money will come from the Federal budget.

And protecting Arizonans from drug cartels is worth every penny.
How does that work exactly?
 
So, according to LHUCKS, by stopping Maria the housecleaner in Phoenix and demanding to see her papers, we are protecting people from the drug cartels. What complete and utter hogwash.

 
So here's what's going to eventually happen if Arizona isn't allowed to do anything about it's illegals problems.

A) The money and good families are going to leave.

B) The state will be a bastion of crime. See Detroit

C) The state will not be able to pay for itself. See California

You watch, if nothing is done about these issues, AZ will collapse.

 
LHUCKS, I want to thank you. As a result of your arguments, I have decided to donate $50 to the ACLU to help them fight this.

 
So here's what's going to eventually happen if Arizona isn't allowed to do anything about it's illegals problems.A) The money and good families are going to leave.B) The state will be a bastion of crime. See DetroitC) The state will not be able to pay for itself. See CaliforniaYou watch, if nothing is done about these issues, AZ will collapse.
I'm not disagreeing with you on that. I am saying that draconian laws promoting racism (never mind being totally unconstitutional) are not the answer. The majority of immigrants, legal or not, are decent people.
 
So here's what's going to eventually happen if Arizona isn't allowed to do anything about it's illegals problems.A) The money and good families are going to leave.B) The state will be a bastion of crime. See DetroitC) The state will not be able to pay for itself. See CaliforniaYou watch, if nothing is done about these issues, AZ will collapse.
I'm not disagreeing with you on that. I am saying that draconian laws promoting racism (never mind being totally unconstitutional) are not the answer. The majority of immigrants, legal or not, are decent people.
If it were my state (California) I'd rather see us all sink in the ocean first before pushing through such a vile law.
 
But just because Jose Torres lives on the border and might well be a 5th generation real deal, nice and legal American citizen, who, just for kicks, can trace his family roots in Arizona back another few generations should not be subjected to a search because he is "suspected". But tell us what makes that guy a suspect?
The intent of this law and the police force is not to target just any person, there are specific indicators that the police force will be trained on and that they will target.
Intent, theory, hopes are all irrelevant in contrast to the action of this legislation. If you don't know the terms of this, shouldn't we aim before we shoot and have a sense of what they are looking for?At the end of the day, the danger of this precedent to me is that we are going down a dark road. And realistically, we have a lot of problems with money laundering in this country, and apart from the ilgotten gains it's derivived from, it further funds illegal activities, and really wouldn't we all be safer if we made our bank accounts reviewable by all authorities? It's just a little right anyway, what's the big deal? Are you cool with an investigation of your finances for greater good?
 

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